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Naphal
Apr 11th 2007, 07:14 AM
Would like to open a discussion about the difference if any about Christ being able to forgive sins before the cross without the shedding of blood and since he could do this why was dying on the cross actually necessary.

Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Luke 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

No blood was needed in these cases yet we read:


Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Slug1
Apr 11th 2007, 11:25 AM
I'd say these fall into case by case situations. What about the rest of the people in the world that never got to talk to Jesus during His ministry or what about the people after His sacrifice.

Without Jesus' sacrifice for our sins then 'only' those very few people would be saved and no one else.

Naphal
Apr 11th 2007, 04:51 PM
I'd say these fall into case by case situations. What about the rest of the people in the world that never got to talk to Jesus during His ministry or what about the people after His sacrifice.

Without Jesus' sacrifice for our sins then 'only' those very few people would be saved and no one else.

Again, I am wanting to hear why Christ could forgive sins without shedding any blood. Any thoughts on that?

Slug1
Apr 11th 2007, 04:53 PM
Faith is faith. People of His day having faith are forgiven just as those after His day and His sacrifice are forgiven for their faith in Him.

Naphal
Apr 11th 2007, 05:03 PM
Faith is faith. People of His day having faith are forgiven just as those after His day and His sacrifice are forgiven for their faith in Him.

I understand that people were healed and forgiven because they had faith but how was it that he forgave sins without shedding any of his or anyone else's blood?

John146
Apr 11th 2007, 05:04 PM
He's God. Why couldn't He? It says in Revelation 13:8 that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world.

Benaiah
Apr 11th 2007, 05:22 PM
OT saints who died in faith were saved Long before Christ's blood was shed. salvation has always been by grace thru FAITH. and God has always accounted those who had faith with righteousness. Christ's blood still had to be shed, so int he end it appears that credit is given for faith and sins were forgiven on the basis of faith and of the future sacrifice of Christ.

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

You also have the example of David's sin of adultery and murder being forgiven.

2Sa 12:13 So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.

Clouds & Spikes
Apr 11th 2007, 06:13 PM
Christ was slain from the foundation of the World. So his blood has been available from the beginning for forgiveness. Thats why he could tell ppl there sins were forgiven. without shedding blood right then and there.

Brandon

Slug1
Apr 11th 2007, 06:33 PM
I understand that people were healed and forgiven because they had faith but how was it that he forgave sins without shedding any of his or anyone else's blood?

Jesus is God so by having faith in that truth saved those people. FAITH, it all boils down to faith.

Naphal
Apr 11th 2007, 07:33 PM
He's God. Why couldn't He? It says in Revelation 13:8 that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world.

I believe that means he was going to be slain not that he was already slain at the foundation of the world. How could he be slain when he was non-human?

David Taylor
Apr 11th 2007, 07:33 PM
Again, I am wanting to hear why Christ could forgive sins without shedding any blood. Any thoughts on that?

He could forgive sins on account of His own shed blood.

It was a done-deal, whether before or after Calvary, because God is not contained within nor limited to time.

That is why Revelation can state, "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. "

It doesn't place Calvary prior to the foundation of the world, and we can see that easy enough.

In similar manner, Abraham was justified from His sins because of Christ's sacrifice, even before Christ was sacrificed.

Galatians 3:6 "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Christ's ability to forgive sin by faith doesn't matter when He was sacrified, but rather simply 'that' He was sacrificed.

That is how he could also say, "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." ...which would include faithful believers past and future.

RogerW
Apr 11th 2007, 07:36 PM
John has already pointed out that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. In essence the Covenant of Redemption had already come to pass, but Christ must still be obedient to terms of the Covenant and literally pay the price required for redemption of His elect by dying on the cross and being resurrected from the grave in order to pay the sin debt. All those OT saints who died in faith looked forward to fulfillment of the promise, where all the NT saints look back to the finished work on the cross.

Faith is absolutely necessary to please God.


Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

All of these OT saints died in faith, and yet the text very clearly says the did not receive the promises. Why?

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

They could not go in the spirit, immediately upon physical death into heaven because without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Though these OT saints had died in faith, and looked forward to the Messiah, Who would offer Himself as the Lamb slain, none of these lived to receive the benefit of being washed in the blood of the Lamb. None could be purged without the shedding of the blood of the Lamb. Without the shedding of His blood there is no forgiveness for sins. If they have not been covered by the blood of the Lamb, they are not forgiven, and without forgiveness it is impossible for them to reign in heaven.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

The way into the holiest of all (through the blood of the Lamb) was not made manifest as long as the first tabernacle stood. These OT saints had only the shadow of the True that was to come. They had only the carnal ordinances imposed on them until the time of reformation, or fulfillment of promises.

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

The OT saints were held under the Old covenant sacrificial law which could never purge their consciences from dead works to serve the living God. For this cause Christ became the mediator of the New Covenant in His blood, through His death for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, so those who were called would receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

But, the promise of the New Covenant could not be complete without the death of the testator (Christ). It was only after the Lordís death that the New Covenant is of force, otherwise there is no strength in the covenant before He lived, or while the Lord yet lived.

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

It is only through His sacrificial, atoning death that sin is put away forever. Not one of those OT saints had received the remission of sins prior to Christ becoming the sacrifice for them.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Christ is offered to bear the sins of all those OT saints (many) who had died in faith without having received the promises. And He paid the sin debt for all who look for Him to appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

All of those who died in faith, did not receive the promise because they, without us (great multitude) should not be made perfect. It is only through the blood of Christ that His people are sanctified.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

So, these OT saints who have lived and died prior to the cross were sealed (covered, sanctified, cleansed) by the blood of the Lamb after Christ was resurrected. Now the way is provided that they may receive the long awaited promises of inheritance through the one time sacrificial atonement of Christ. Although in essence they were chosen unto salvation from the foundation of the world, they could not receive the promises until Christ literally paid the price for their redemption in redemptive history or time.

RW

David Taylor
Apr 11th 2007, 07:37 PM
I believe that means he was going to be slain not that he was already slain at the foundation of the world. How could he be slain when he was non-human?

His slaying for the sins of all humanity who would faithfully believe, was promised, known, foretold, planned, etc... from the foundation of the Earth.

That is why repeatedly, in the OT times prior to Calvary, we see all of the types that pointed forward to His slaying for the forgiveness of sin.

Naphal
Apr 11th 2007, 07:58 PM
His slaying for the sins of all humanity who would faithfully believe, was promised, known, foretold, planned, etc... from the foundation of the Earth.



That's what I was saying in response to the idea of Christ actually being slain before the foundation.


It seems the general consensus is either Christ forgave sins on a form of "credit" because he was going to shed his blood or that he could do it without blood simply because he is God.

David Taylor
Apr 11th 2007, 08:19 PM
It seems the general consensus is either Christ forgave sins on a form of "credit" because he was going to shed his blood or that he could do it without blood simply because he is God.

Concesus really is irrelevant.

Either:
1) God requires the shed blood of Christ alone for the remission and forgiveness of sin;

OR

2) there is another way of remission and forgiveness.




Again, the scriptures provide the truth....

Hebrews 9:22 "without shedding of blood is no remission"



Whose blood?

The blood of bulls and goats? NO!
"it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins"
The blood of someone besides Christ? NO!
"by his own blood he...obtained eternal redemption for us."
Jesus said, "For this is my blood...is shed for many for the remission of sins." Matthew 26:28


So the answer to your question is given to us by the Scriptures clearly and solely pointing only to Jesus' shed blood for all who will be forgiven of their sins.

Naphal
Apr 11th 2007, 08:32 PM
Concesus really is irrelevant.

Either:
1) God requires the shed blood of Christ alone for the remission and forgiveness of sin;

OR

2) there is another way of remission and forgiveness.




Again, the scriptures provide the truth....

Hebrews 9:22 "without shedding of blood is no remission"



Whose blood?

The blood of bulls and goats? NO!
"it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins"
The blood of someone besides Christ? NO!
"by his own blood he...obtained eternal redemption for us."
Jesus said, "For this is my blood...is shed for many for the remission of sins." Matthew 26:28


So the answer to your question is given to us by the Scriptures clearly and solely pointing only to Jesus' shed blood for all who will be forgiven of their sins.


Consensus is important to find out what people here think.

The first option about forgiving on credit still fulfills your option 1.

John146
Apr 11th 2007, 10:08 PM
I believe that means he was going to be slain not that he was already slain at the foundation of the world. How could he be slain when he was non-human?

His death on the cross was foreordained by God, therefore it was as if it had already been done from the foundation of the world. Try to see it from God's perspective, as difficult as that may be for all of us to do.

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. - 1 Peter 1:19-21

Naphal
Apr 12th 2007, 02:35 AM
2) there is another way of remission and forgiveness.


This is a side topic but a little related. There are other ways in scripture for sins to be forgiven aside from the normal "repent and forgive":


James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

ross3421
Apr 13th 2007, 06:42 AM
Sin runs through our veins it is in our blood we cannot escape. Sin is death from Adam.

Christ had sinless blood, he could never die thus he had to voluntarily die.

Life is in blood. The shedding of Christ's blood gave the possibilty of life to all of us who are tainted. Thus without the shedding of blood there is no possibility of the remission of sin (death). We are free from the bondage of sin (death) through his shed blood.


** Do ever wonder why when you die they have to drain all the blood out of the body? Sin, decay.

** Also note on the sinless blood of Christ that in birth the women passes no blood to the baby but nutrients only.


The shedding of blood ALLOWED the way for those through faith to be free. So all those in the OT which were found faithful became free from bondage of death upon the cross.

Note that no one was ever resurrected until after the shedding of blood.


Mark

Naphal
Apr 13th 2007, 07:18 AM
Christ had sinless blood, he could never die thus he had to voluntarily die.

Christ didn't commit suicide. He was murdered. He had no divine protection from death. Had he not died on the cross he would have died eventually. He was sinless but blood is neither sinful or sinless.



** Do ever wonder why when you die they have to drain all the blood out of the body? Sin, decay.

Flesh/meat rots faster when blood is left in it.



** Also note on the sinless blood of Christ that in birth the women passes no blood to the baby but nutrients only.

Like I said, blood has nothing to do with sin or lack of sin.



Note that no one was ever resurrected until after the shedding of blood.

Christ resurrected people from the dead before he shed any blood.

TEITZY
Apr 14th 2007, 10:53 AM
This is a side topic but a little related. There are other ways in scripture for sins to be forgiven aside from the normal "repent and forgive":

So from the verses below you are implying that men can forgive sins also?



James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Tell me, how is a sinner converted? Is it not through repentance and faith?



1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

In context this is speaking of the result of brotherly love towards other Christians. That is, our love towards other believers will overcome or "cover" any failures or faults in their character that would normally cause us to despise or reject such a person.

Cheers
Leigh

TEITZY
Apr 14th 2007, 11:00 AM
Had he not died on the cross he would have died eventually.

Are you sure about that? I thought the reason we die physically is because we are sinners?

Teke
Apr 14th 2007, 01:51 PM
Would like to open a discussion about the difference if any about Christ being able to forgive sins before the cross without the shedding of blood and since he could do this why was dying on the cross actually necessary.

Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Luke 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

No blood was needed in these cases yet we read:


Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


God has always forgiven us when we repent. The Hebrews verse is referring to the temple and worship. The earthly sanctuary was consecrated with blood because it had to be cleansed, being of this mortal and corrupt realm, and it also needed to be consecrated to God. The heavenly sanctuary, of course never was unclean, but there was a need for worship to be inaugurated there.
This is likely in reference to Christ's new priesthood as well. (Hebrews 12:24)

Naphal
Apr 14th 2007, 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1224727#post1224727)
This is a side topic but a little related. There are other ways in scripture for sins to be forgiven aside from the normal "repent and forgive":

So from the verses below you are implying that men can forgive sins also?

The verses I quoted have nothing to do with that. But, yes men can forgive sins committed against them but they cannot forgive sins that are committed against God.




Quote:


James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Tell me, how is a sinner converted? Is it not through repentance and faith?


Of course but again that's not the part of the verse that was being referred to. The person who helps to convert an unbeliever into a believer shall have a multitude of their sins "hidden" which is the same as being forgiven. The "converter" didn't need to repent of those sins. It is that which is the interesting part.



Quote:
1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
In context this is speaking of the result of brotherly love towards other Christians.


Yes it is.



That is, our love towards other believers will overcome or "cover" any failures or faults in their character that would normally cause us to despise or reject such a person.


Actually the text uses the word "sins" which is more specific than the words you used. Again, the unique thing is how sins can be forgiven without repentance under these two special circumstances. This does not replace repentance but is merely an addittional way God has provided for removal of sins.

Naphal
Apr 14th 2007, 11:12 PM
Are you sure about that? I thought the reason we die physically is because we are sinners?

It's a bit more complicated than that actually. Even sinless people can die, Christ is one example and I believe unborn children are another.

Teke
Apr 15th 2007, 12:19 AM
It's a bit more complicated than that actually. Even sinless people can die, Christ is one example and I believe unborn children are another.

There are three Greek words which we translate in English into one word, sin.
They do not all mean the same thing. The Greek word used for what is usually referred to as "our fallen state", refers to our created state of being. That is, in relation to God, we are created and He is not. It has nothing to do with a moral situation resulting in judgement or the need to repent.

Naphal
Apr 15th 2007, 12:33 AM
There are three Greek words which we translate in English into one word, sin.

I believe there are four actually.




They do not all mean the same thing. The Greek word used for what is usually referred to as "our fallen state", refers to our created state of being. That is, in relation to God, we are created and He is not. It has nothing to do with a moral situation resulting in judgement or the need to repent.


Lets be specific:

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

NT:266
hamartia (ham-ar-tee'-ah); from NT:264; a sin (properly abstract):

KJV - offence, sin (-ful).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)



1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

NT:266
hamartia (ham-ar-tee'-ah); from NT:264; a sin (properly abstract):

KJV - offence, sin (-ful).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

We are talking about sin in the most common understanding we use. The usual way of having sin removed is through repentance but this is not the only way as the two verses above prove. God will remove sins through very holy and loving acts without repentance on the part of the holy person. I just find it fascinating. I didn't intend to overly sidetrack the original issue.

TEITZY
Apr 15th 2007, 06:30 AM
The verses I quoted have nothing to do with that. But, yes men can forgive sins committed against them but they cannot forgive sins that are committed against God.

We should forgive those who sin against us but sin is sin whether it's committed against God or men and ultimately God is the only one who can forgive us from the penalty of sin.





Of course but again that's not the part of the verse that was being referred to. The person who helps to convert an unbeliever into a believer shall have a multitude of their sins "hidden" which is the same as being forgiven. The "converter" didn't need to repent of those sins. It is that which is the interesting part.


The sins hidden are the sins of the person who is converted not the one who converts them.




Actually the text uses the word "sins" which is more specific than the words you used. Again, the unique thing is how sins can be forgiven without repentance under these two special circumstances. This does not replace repentance but is merely an addittional way God has provided for removal of sins.

Yes, by failures and faults I meant sins and this is what the love & grace of other believers veils or covers as they recall how much they have been forgiven and realize that they themselves are not perfect.




It's a bit more complicated than that actually. Even sinless people can die, Christ is one example and I believe unborn children are another.


Jesus didn't die from natural causes or old age, He volutarily gave up His life and no thing or no one took it from Him. Unborn children aren't free from original sin as David stated in Ps 51:5. Just because someone may be considered 'innocent' by God doesn't make them sinless.

Cheers
Leigh

Naphal
Apr 15th 2007, 08:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1228466#post1228466)
The verses I quoted have nothing to do with that. But, yes men can forgive sins committed against them but they cannot forgive sins that are committed against God.

We should forgive those who sin against us but sin is sin whether it's committed against God or men and ultimately God is the only one who can forgive us from the penalty of sin.

I don't think all sins committed unto another person is punishable by death:


1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.








Quote:
Of course but again that's not the part of the verse that was being referred to. The person who helps to convert an unbeliever into a believer shall have a multitude of their sins "hidden" which is the same as being forgiven. The "converter" didn't need to repent of those sins. It is that which is the interesting part.
The sins hidden are the sins of the person who is converted not the one who converts them.


I disagree. Scholars seem to be divided on this but do you apply this same logic to the other verse as well?

Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.


Do you then believe that having charity among others means that you cause other peoples sins to be removed from them?




Quote:
It's a bit more complicated than that actually. Even sinless people can die, Christ is one example and I believe unborn children are another.
Jesus didn't die from natural causes or old age, He volutarily gave up His life and no thing or no one took it from Him.


Jesus was murdered and yes he did not stop it from happening. Not everyone who has sinned shall die, and there are some who haven't sinned that have died. Most sin and most have and will die however but the true death that comes from sinning is the second death not the first.





Unborn children aren't free from original sin as David stated in Ps 51:5.

David said no such thing, nor is original sin a biblical concept but that's another thread of course :)




Just because someone may be considered 'innocent' by God doesn't make them sinless.

Oh, I think it does just as being guilty is equated to being sinful.