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AFS
Apr 13th 2007, 05:58 PM
For something to be perfect, we would all be forced to agree on its perfection. If any can question perfection, it cannot be. That is why "perfect" is impossible.

I, for one, DO question Gods perfection. Yet in the bible, and in the world today, he is called perfect all the time.

What's with that?

Slug1
Apr 13th 2007, 06:06 PM
:confused

Just because you question God doesn't make Him imperfect. Just means that you don't understand and if you pray to Him and ask, He just may answer you.

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 13th 2007, 06:08 PM
For something to be perfect, we would all be forced to agree on its perfection. If any can question perfection, it cannot be. That is why "perfect" is impossible.

Can you expound on this proposition? You seem to think it makes logical sense, but I do not see the sense of it at all. To me, somebody question the perfection of a perfect being shows the imperfection of the one questioning; it does nothing to affect the perfection of the being being questioned.

But perhaps you could expound...

Bright One
Apr 13th 2007, 06:12 PM
True perfection is WAY beyond our human understanding. God is true perfection, though I think we will never fully understand it. Just because you question something doesn't make it false; we're supposed to question, to wonder, to want to understand. Just because we don't believe right off the bat doesn't make God any less perfect. It just shows how meager our grasp of His glory is.

Also, in order for something to be true it doesn't have to be agreed upon by everyone, otherwise, when everyone thought the earth was flat the earth would be, indeed, flat.

chisel
Apr 13th 2007, 06:25 PM
For something to be perfect, we would all be forced to agree on its perfection. If any can question perfection, it cannot be. That is why "perfect" is impossible.

I, for one, DO question Gods perfection. Yet in the bible, and in the world today, he is called perfect all the time.

What's with that?

So basically God's perfection is dependent on what YOU think? Is God aware of this power you have?

Would a mole or a bat consider the light to be perfect? Would a mushroom consider the sun's perfection? Would a thief or a murderer consider the law that convicts him as perfect? Is truth perfect to those who love the lie? Is love perfect to a hateful heart? Is mercy perfect to him who is bloodthirsty? Is forgiveness perfect to the vindictive? Is wisdom perfect to the foolish?

th1bill
Apr 13th 2007, 09:32 PM
For something to be perfect, we would all be forced to agree on its perfection. If any can question perfection, it cannot be. That is why "perfect" is impossible.

I, for one, DO question Gods perfection. Yet in the bible, and in the world today, he is called perfect all the time.

What's with that?
God created the earth, man, the stars, shoot he created everything and I'll actually sin and gamble on this one;
I'll give one hundred to one odds that God did not consult with you as to the parameters of creation!

God does not set the standard, does not accept any definition of the standard, He is the standard.

It matters only that you accept or reject the standard.

Know full well that rejection means that you, personally choose to, accept the default eternal residence known popularly as Hell.

th1bill
Apr 13th 2007, 09:34 PM
Can you expound on this proposition? You seem to think it makes logical sense, but I do not see the sense of it at all. To me, somebody question the perfection of a perfect being shows the imperfection of the one questioning; it does nothing to affect the perfection of the being being questioned.

But perhaps you could expound...
I love that, it's perfect logic.

Big T
Apr 13th 2007, 09:41 PM
For something to be perfect, we would all be forced to agree on its perfection. If any can question perfection, it cannot be. That is why "perfect" is impossible. Says who? ...........

Souled Out
Apr 13th 2007, 10:05 PM
For something to be perfect, we would all be forced to agree on its perfection. If any can question perfection, it cannot be. That is why "perfect" is impossible.

I, for one, DO question Gods perfection. Yet in the bible, and in the world today, he is called perfect all the time.

What's with that?

God is not who or what you think He is; He is who and what He says He is.

AFS
Apr 14th 2007, 03:19 AM
Also, in order for something to be true it doesn't have to be agreed upon by everyone, otherwise, when everyone thought the earth was flat the earth would be, indeed, flat.

I didn't say truth had to be agreed upon. I said perfection.

There's another post on this forum (More on Gods Perfection) that seemed to answer a lot of the question, and at this point I couldn't say a whole lot that hasn't already been said.

Also, not to be offensive, but it is only VERY distracting to constantly read off topic comments about my and other non-christians inevitable vacation across the River Styx. Pease leave it out, at least in the topic, for the sake of y slow pace of reading.

But, back on topic, no, Gods perfection is not limited to what I think. Perfection is an abstract, and impossable, might I add, idea. Perfection is the peek of existance. Not "the best of what is" but "the best of what could be". I see God as a very faulted character, ie: He designed and built an existance that is full of suffering. Suffering, mind you, that he could easily and with no effort relieve. But he doesn't? Some may say, "You don't know the whole story." While that may be true, I do know this: He could have done- no, scratch that- He could still do a lot better.

But he doesn't. Far from perfect.

IamRyan
Apr 14th 2007, 03:32 AM
What someone is isn't to the extent of what people think of that person, it is to the extent of what that person does. And God does not sin, and therefore is perfect.

IamRyan
Apr 14th 2007, 03:33 AM
God created the earth, man, the stars, shoot he created everything and I'll actually sin and gamble on this one;
I'll give one hundred to one odds that God did not consult with you as to the parameters of creation!

God does not set the standard, does not accept any definition of the standard, He is the standard.

It matters only that you accept or reject the standard.

Know full well that rejection means that you, personally choose to, accept the default eternal residence known popularly as Hell.

Gambling isn't sinning. It's how you go about it that is.

AFS
Apr 14th 2007, 03:37 AM
As long as you don't sin, you're perfect?

That's not perfect, that's... without sin.

Perfect is an opinion. And for something to be perfect, all opinions would have to agree.

IamRyan
Apr 14th 2007, 03:53 AM
Ok, so what is prefect. Being good at every sport in the world? Knowing every school subject down to the letter? No. It's to be without sin.

Wayne Gretsky is an amazing hockey player. But I don't think so! Now he isn't an amazing hockey player. See, it doesn't work.

Bright One
Apr 14th 2007, 03:58 AM
Ok, so what is prefect. Being good at every sport in the world? Knowing every school subject down to the letter? No. It's to be without sin.

Wayne Gretsky is an amazing hockey player. But I don't think so! Now he isn't an amazing hockey player. See, it doesn't work.
I'm completely on board with this, perfection is in it's very essence the flawlessness that comes from being without sin. Not only that, but God is ALWAYS right, because He knows EVERYTHING. But there's no way for me to prove this to you, it's a faith thing.

God didn't create a world of suffering, He created a world with consequences.

NHL Fever
Apr 14th 2007, 03:58 AM
As long as you don't sin, you're perfect?

That's not perfect, that's... without sin.

Perfect is an opinion. And for something to be perfect, all opinions would have to agree.

Look it up, perfection does not require consensus. The perfect car to me might not be the perfect one to you. Some things I might require for perfection in my dinner entree might automatically disqualify perfection if you had them in yours.

As for Godly perfection. God does not meet an externally set criteria for perfection, he defines it. What He is, is perfect. By definition He can only be Himself, therefore He is perfect.

Perfect is an English word. If you're interested in a real discussion, why don't you quote some real bible text and discuss it?

Since you are imperfect, there's no guarantee you could identify perfection if you saw it. Given that uncertainty, how can you say perfection is impossible? You as an imperfect human, can not perfectly rule out the existence of perfection.


As long as you don't sin, you're perfect?

That's not perfect, that's... without sin.

Perfect is an opinion. And for something to be perfect, all opinions would have to agree.

Well, I guess you already know all about it. What would you like from us?

TEITZY
Apr 14th 2007, 04:04 AM
I didn't say truth had to be agreed upon. I said perfection.

There's another post on this forum (More on Gods Perfection) that seemed to answer a lot of the question, and at this point I couldn't say a whole lot that hasn't already been said.

Also, not to be offensive, but it is only VERY distracting to constantly read off topic comments about my and other non-christians inevitable vacation across the River Styx. Pease leave it out, at least in the topic, for the sake of y slow pace of reading.

But, back on topic, no, Gods perfection is not limited to what I think. Perfection is an abstract, and impossable, might I add, idea. Perfection is the peek of existance. Not "the best of what is" but "the best of what could be". I see God as a very faulted character, ie: He designed and built an existance that is full of suffering. Suffering, mind you, that he could easily and with no effort relieve. But he doesn't? Some may say, "You don't know the whole story." While that may be true, I do know this: He could have done- no, scratch that- He could still do a lot better.

But he doesn't. Far from perfect.

If you have complete knowledge of all things then yes you can define what perfection is. God being omniscient and omnipresent therefore has such knowledge and can define what is perfect and what is not. So while you do not believe in God you have to conceed that if such a being exists then He has the right & knowledge to define what perfection is. The concept of perfection is certainly not "abstract" or "impossible", just ask anyone who has ever got 100% on an exam.

God created everything "very good" or perfect in the beginning and it was man that brought suffering and death into existence through his disobedience. God being omnipotent certainly can alleviate all pain and suffering but to do so would mean He would have to rid the world of the source of this suffering which is sinful man. So God has the perfect right to destroy sinners since the just punishment for sin is death but in His mercy and love He permits then to live and even prosper in the hope that they will turn to Him for forgiveness. The sad reality is that men love their sin and therefore hate God who reveals it for what it is.

If you want to experience perfection or the "peek of existence" I suggest you repent of your sin and trust in Christ for salvation.

Cheers
Leigh

CoveredInHisBlood
Apr 14th 2007, 06:43 AM
For something to be perfect, we would all be forced to agree on its perfection. If any can question perfection, it cannot be. That is why "perfect" is impossible.

I, for one, DO question Gods perfection. Yet in the bible, and in the world today, he is called perfect all the time.

What's with that?
To say that "perfect" is impossible, is an illogical statement, it is like saying "there are no absolutes". It is illogical.

This thread and others like it are a waste of space, if you are going to try and confound us, at least stay within the realm of logic.

chisel
Apr 14th 2007, 10:53 AM
I didn't say truth had to be agreed upon. I said perfection.

There's another post on this forum (More on Gods Perfection) that seemed to answer a lot of the question, and at this point I couldn't say a whole lot that hasn't already been said.

Also, not to be offensive, but it is only VERY distracting to constantly read off topic comments about my and other non-christians inevitable vacation across the River Styx. Pease leave it out, at least in the topic, for the sake of y slow pace of reading.

But, back on topic, no, Gods perfection is not limited to what I think. Perfection is an abstract, and impossable, might I add, idea. Perfection is the peek of existance. Not "the best of what is" but "the best of what could be". I see God as a very faulted character, ie: He designed and built an existance that is full of suffering. Suffering, mind you, that he could easily and with no effort relieve. But he doesn't? Some may say, "You don't know the whole story." While that may be true, I do know this: He could have done- no, scratch that- He could still do a lot better.

But he doesn't. Far from perfect.

An interesting thing I've found is that, although atheists enjoy mentioning the suffering in the world as 'evidence' that God does not exist, it's usually the atheists who have never experienced real suffering in their lives. Most atheists I've chatted to have lived comfortable happy lives. This is a generalisation, I know, and I'm sure many atheists will fall over each other's feet to try and find an example of an atheist who has had a run of bad luck, and I'm sure there are some. But in general, atheists are very comfortable, which explains why they're not keen on submitting to a higher power than themselves.

Would AFS believe in God if cooked food floated into his mouth and he wouldn't need to work, houses built themselves and disease and death never threatened his existence? Would he pause every now and then between meals and having endless fun and think, "Heck, everything is so perfect, there must be a God!"
I doubt!

What I've also noticed is that, although atheists mention suffering in the world, they rarely do anything to try and alleviate the suffering of others. It is still mainly the Christians who run the soup kitchens and the charities, feeding the poor and clothing the homeless.
Can anybody here name a few atheist charities?

Strange isn't it? Or maybe not, because if you're just an animal, then why worry about someone who is going to die anyway?

Which raises another question. How do atheists determine what God should have done better? By saying that, they're invoking a moral law. Where do moral laws come from?

If AFS believes that moral laws are relative, well then he has no business imposing his relative moral standards on others whose relative moral standards may be different...
If he believes that morality is absolute, where does it come from?

What say you, AFS?

Faithwalker
Apr 14th 2007, 11:30 AM
I do know this:He could have done- no, scratch that- He could still do a lot better.


Says the lump of clay to its creator? That would be outrageously funny, if it wasnt so sad. You know nothing my friend. God calls you proud and wicked. If you have a Bible, go read where HE calls you by name in Psalms 10:4

Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you-mere man that you are-to talk back to God? Can an object that was molded say to the one who molded it, "Why did you make me like this?" A potter has the right to do what he wants to with his clay, doesn't he? He can make something for a special occasion or something for ordinary use from the same lump.

chisel
Apr 14th 2007, 11:33 AM
I didn't say truth had to be agreed upon. I said perfection.

Would you say, that your reasoning in this instance is perfect?

AFS
Apr 14th 2007, 04:51 PM
Christians preaching logic. "I'll be leaving Korea now, I've seen everything."

I'm going to stop posting now. A waste of space indeed.

calidog
Apr 14th 2007, 05:19 PM
For something to be perfect, we would all be forced to agree on its perfection. If any can question perfection, it cannot be. That is why "perfect" is impossible.

I, for one, DO question Gods perfection. Yet in the bible, and in the world today, he is called perfect all the time.

What's with that?
Jesus died and rose from the dead and said God is perfect. Who are we to correct Him?

Big T
Apr 14th 2007, 11:38 PM
As long as you don't sin, you're perfect?

That's not perfect, that's... without sin.
Do you know the definition of sin? Sin is making mistakes (very generalized definition) so not sinning would be not making mistakes. Therefore perfect.


Perfect is an opinion.Really? It's not definable as "without flaw or impurity". Guess you learn something new everyday.


And for something to be perfect, all opinions would have to agree.Says who? Who has determined that "opinions" must match?

Bright One
Apr 15th 2007, 12:13 AM
Christians preaching logic. "I'll be leaving Korea now, I've seen everything."

I'm going to stop posting now. A waste of space indeed.
I'm sorry AFS, and I mean no disrespect when I say this, but you are ignorant and blind. You've got a pillowcase over your head and you don't even realize it.

StevenC
Apr 15th 2007, 01:31 AM
For something to be perfect, we would all be forced to agree on its perfection. If any can question perfection, it cannot be. That is why "perfect" is impossible.

I, for one, DO question Gods perfection. Yet in the bible, and in the world today, he is called perfect all the time.

What's with that?

You raise an interesting question, one that requires that you look beyond a strictly human perspective.

Lets say that nothing existed except you. And that you alone existed. Lets also say that you had the power to make something exist from nothing. This is what defines YHWH or God. To create something from nothing. Now lets say you used this power to create an a universe, a planet, an intelligent being given a mind that can make choices regarding good (God) and evil (against God.)

If the intelligent being you made decided that you didn't exist, and that you had created nothing, might you be a little annoyed at that being if you had poured your very life into it?

You see the perfection of God arises out of supreme authority and power beyond human comprehension. With the acceptance of the supreme authority, you have to acknowledge that He alone is perfection. He created everything and nothing is impressive when compared to Him. Everything is less than him. He is the standard of perfection, he is the very embodiment of good. This is the God we serve. A God that has created everything.

So his perfection is because everything that exists - he made - and nothing he made compares to Him. He alone is all powerful and perfect.

-Steven

the inside out
Apr 15th 2007, 03:34 AM
Christians preaching logic. "I'll be leaving Korea now, I've seen everything."

I'm going to stop posting now. A waste of space indeed.
No offense, but this is the most childish thing I have ever read. Trying to through insults and sarcasm isn't going to help you or make you seem smarter.

Being without sin is perfection. Sin is making mistakes, doing wrong, etc. God is without sin. Since being without sin is perfection is then God is perfection. Whether you agree with that or not doesn't change the fact that it is true. Truth isn't based on opinion, it's based on fact. If it's raining outside, saying that it's sunny doesn't change that.

God's perfection doesn't change just because you say it doesn't exist. He is who he is.

Dunedanranger
Apr 16th 2007, 07:23 AM
Hello AFS. Let's look at the basic meaning of perfection:"without flaw." That's not an opinion, it exists entirely independent of how anyone sees it. That said, we can argue about perception, but that still won't get us anywhere. Look at it this way: an experienced jewler is appraising the value of a certain jem. Unbeknownst to him there is a tiny pit in his lenses, and he mistakes it as being a flaw in the jem. Now if the jewel itself had no blemishes, would the opinion of the jewler, experienced though he may be, mean that there was a blemish? Of course not. In fact the jewler's opinion is totally irrelevent as to the actual quality of the rock. Now say that we are the jewler and God is the Rock. Because our environment (I don't mean trees, beloved) is flawed, we examine situations, personages, and objects in a way that reflects our flawed environment. We look at an Incomprehensible God through the lense of (erroneous) human reasoning, emotions, etc. God is perfect regardless of how we veiw Him, and in spite of our misconceptions.

ikester7579
Apr 16th 2007, 10:43 AM
For something to be perfect, we would all be forced to agree on its perfection. If any can question perfection, it cannot be. That is why "perfect" is impossible.

I, for one, DO question Gods perfection. Yet in the bible, and in the world today, he is called perfect all the time.

What's with that?

So what would be your vision of perfection?

God's Advocate
Apr 23rd 2007, 11:29 PM
Does the quote, "I am who I am" mean anything to you? God doesn't cause suffering, humans do. He gave humans free will, and look what we did with it. I personally beleive that all suffering in the world could have been, somewhat, aleiviated. God gave us a chance to choose, way back in Eden, and we chose wrong

Acicular Oculus
Apr 24th 2007, 02:09 AM
For something to be perfect, we would all be forced to agree on its perfection. If any can question perfection, it cannot be. That is why "perfect" is impossible.

I, for one, DO question Gods perfection. Yet in the bible, and in the world today, he is called perfect all the time.

What's with that?

Though I'm in no way perfect, I think this analogy might help:

My sixteen year old questions me all the time. I'm much more world wise than he is, and than he could ever be. It is absolutely, utterly, impossible for him to have my wisdom since his brain hasn't had the experience necessary to contest me. As well, his brain isn't even fully developed.

Meaning, any given person of any given degree of error may question any given thing. The question and the fact are unrelated as far as proofs go.

Joel.

tHbaGLORY
Apr 24th 2007, 07:43 PM
I posted something similar to this on the other thread about perfection and I'm hoping it helps here.

There are two options--either God exists or he doesn't exist...

If God does not exist, then we're simply wasting our time talking about his suppossed perfection.

However, If God does exists then he has existed even before any created thing. That is according to the very definition of "God." For if something created God then he is no longer God, but that which created him is. So if God exists then he has always existed. He is the creator of all things and all things are made and defined through him. That makes him the very definition of perfect. No higher standard than his can exist, no other possibility but his Will can be, no worse than what he wants is done. If God is all that there is before Creation than that is all that perfection can be. Then unless God ceases to exist once Creation is made the nature of perfection is still defined in who he is, because nothing is greater nor is anything made greater than himself.

In fact the best definition of perfection I have ever heard is...

God.

The very idea or concept of God demands that such a being is the embodiment of perfection. There is simply no alternative if he exists.

calidog
Apr 24th 2007, 11:54 PM
For something to be perfect, we would all be forced to agree on its perfection. If any can question perfection, it cannot be. That is why "perfect" is impossible.

I, for one, DO question Gods perfection. Yet in the bible, and in the world today, he is called perfect all the time.

What's with that?That would make you perfect and God not.

My vote is God.

My reason? I would consider the source:

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

diffangle
Apr 25th 2007, 02:25 AM
An interesting thing I've found is that, although atheists enjoy mentioning the suffering in the world as 'evidence' that God does not exist, it's usually the atheists who have never experienced real suffering in their lives. Most atheists I've chatted to have lived comfortable happy lives. This is a generalisation, I know, and I'm sure many atheists will fall over each other's feet to try and find an example of an atheist who has had a run of bad luck, and I'm sure there are some. But in general, atheists are very comfortable, which explains why they're not keen on submitting to a higher power than themselves.

Would AFS believe in God if cooked food floated into his mouth and he wouldn't need to work, houses built themselves and disease and death never threatened his existence? Would he pause every now and then between meals and having endless fun and think, "Heck, everything is so perfect, there must be a God!"
I doubt!

What I've also noticed is that, although atheists mention suffering in the world, they rarely do anything to try and alleviate the suffering of others. It is still mainly the Christians who run the soup kitchens and the charities, feeding the poor and clothing the homeless.
Can anybody here name a few atheist charities?

Strange isn't it? Or maybe not, because if you're just an animal, then why worry about someone who is going to die anyway?

Which raises another question. How do atheists determine what God should have done better? By saying that, they're invoking a moral law. Where do moral laws come from?

If AFS believes that moral laws are relative, well then he has no business imposing his relative moral standards on others whose relative moral standards may be different...
If he believes that morality is absolute, where does it come from?

What say you, AFS?

This is so right on! It's too bad AFS couldn't respond to you. :hmm:

Gods_Silent_Angel
Apr 25th 2007, 08:22 PM
I do not doubt that God is perfect but i was just thinking...if someone did something and God said a curse word..who would know? Who would do anything? How would anyone on his planet know? so, maybe he swears all the time, no?

Just a thought...

calidog
Apr 25th 2007, 08:47 PM
He certainly does all He pleases to do.