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khalou
Apr 19th 2007, 02:31 AM
I'm going to start a new thread from another thread.

Here is a post to me, and my answers-


Hmmm, strange you would say this, since it is Mohammed speaking about killing people, chopping off their hands, etc. who oppose Islam. Where did Jesus ever teach things like that?

He obviously did not. According to Islam, Jesus was the greatest prophet next to Mohamed. Since Islam includes the words of Jesus, then we must look at what the Bible also includes in order to more easily judge its message-

Apparently, God decided to kill every man, woman, and child in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot's wife looks back, and is destroyed. Abraham is willing to kill his son for God. God kills all of the firstborn of Egypt, because God himself has hardened the heart of Pharaoh. God also wanted the firstborn of all the beasts of Egypt, and ordered that their necks be broken. Exodus 15:3 - 12 tells that those who don't agree with God are killed. God decides to have war with the people of Amalek from generation to generation- the innocent babies born have no choice but to be despised and killed by God. God promises to make all others fear the Israelites in their entering of the promised land, and to kill all they meet. God tells his people to breaks the necks of any firstborn that oppose Him. If a stranger approaches the Tabernacle, he will be put to death. Because of a dispute between Moses and some poor unfortunate, God has the fellow swallowed up by the earth, and his wife and little children. Some people mention that this might be a bit harsh, and God sends a plague that kills 14,700 people. God allowed his people to kill all the Canaanites. When God's people defeated the Mennonites, they neglected to kill the women and children. Moses told them to kill all the male children, while he killed all the women that had ever had sex. He also told them that what was left was theirs for the taking. Wow. Lots of virgins. Beat THAT, Islam!

I could go on and on for pages and pages. I have barely scratched the surface. The slicing open of pregnant women and the running through of the unborn in front of the eyes of the dying mother isn't even a small fraction of what I could present as evidence that Christianity is an evil and corrupt religion.


Yes kahlou, they would. In fact, unlike Jesus, Mohammed spread Islam through jihad. It's histroy. Please look it up.

No. Jesus did not spread Christianity. He wasn't around long enough. Those who spread Christianity did it through war and torture.


The point kahlou, (which you keep avoiding by the way :) ) is that leaders where Islam is law are following the directives of their god Allah. I have already showm you one example of what Mohammed taught. You ignored it completely. Why?

Because I see no difference between leaders of countries that have bastardized the religion of Islam and the leaders of countries that have bastardized the religion of Christianity. The Church of England was horribly cruel.


Here's the challenge you challenged ddlewis with, only now it's in defense of Christianity. Show me anywhere from the teachings of Jesus or the Apostles where they advocate killing or maiming.

They didn't.


Meeting my challenge should be a piece of cake for you then.

Fine. If you're trying to say that the millions of Muslims that don't condone the murder of anyone, and the tolerance of all faiths is according to the true prophet (pbhn), then you are being reasonable.

But I don't suppose that's what you're saying.


I have said nothing in violence or hate against anyone. My logic is that peple who are Christian follow Christ. Forget about what evil acts have been done "in the name of" Jesus. You really need to meet my challenge kahlou. Good luck.

I see. Everyone on the planet has to forget about violence in the name of the Christian God, but accept that Islam is all about that violence! :o

You may remain in ignorance for all I care. I will continue to argue against those who say that the Christian God is a hateful God despite your prejudice. The truth remains the truth no matter how people like you wish to perpetuate stupidity.

k

Acicular Oculus
Apr 19th 2007, 04:05 AM
Apparently, God decided to kill every man, woman, and child in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot's wife looks back, and is destroyed. Abraham is willing to kill his son for God. God kills all of the firstborn of Egypt, because God himself has hardened the heart of Pharaoh. God also wanted the firstborn of all the beasts of Egypt, and ordered that their necks be broken. Exodus 15:3 - 12 tells that those who don't agree with God are killed. God decides to have war with the people of Amalek from generation to generation- the innocent babies born have no choice but to be despised and killed by God. God promises to make all others fear the Israelites in their entering of the promised land, and to kill all they meet. God tells his people to breaks the necks of any firstborn that oppose Him. If a stranger approaches the Tabernacle, he will be put to death. Because of a dispute between Moses and some poor unfortunate, God has the fellow swallowed up by the earth, and his wife and little children. Some people mention that this might be a bit harsh, and God sends a plague that kills 14,700 people. God allowed his people to kill all the Canaanites. When God's people defeated the Mennonites, they neglected to kill the women and children. Moses told them to kill all the male children, while he killed all the women that had ever had sex. He also told them that what was left was theirs for the taking. Wow. Lots of virgins. Beat THAT, Islam!

I could go on and on for pages and pages. I have barely scratched the surface. The slicing open of pregnant women and the running through of the unborn in front of the eyes of the dying mother isn't even a small fraction of what I could present as evidence that Christianity is an evil and corrupt religion.

You are making a good argument. However, you are equivocating. You are making equal a specific with a general. God told his people to kill certain people. Muhammad told his people to kill all other people (who would not convert or accept dhimmitude). Christians were never told to kill anyone. Hebrews were told to kill the inhabitants of a very tiny spot on the earth. Also, you are confusing death penalty commands with military commands. Also, you are confusing the sins of the Hebrews with the commands of God.

I don’t really think you could really go on for pages and pages. Of course you could do so by elaborating ad nauseam on a point that could be explained in a typical paragraph, but that isn’t exactly efficient is it?


No. Jesus did not spread Christianity. He wasn't around long enough. Those who spread Christianity did it through war and torture.
Can you demonstrate this. I will put a note in here: The Spaniards did spread Christianity by force, but, for whatever weird reason, history generally fails to not that 1492 was not only the year that Columbus discovered the new world, but it was also the year that Spain finally drove out the Muslim invaders that had occupied them for hundreds of years. Hundreds of years (I think the invasion of the Iberian peninsula, Andelusia to the Muslims, begin in 750 or thereabouts) is quite long enough for cultural fusion to occur. By my reasoning the Spanish were heavily Islamized and therefore prone to act as Muslims in their proselytizing methods. The Germans did the same thing with the Jews, taking many ideas and methods from the Muslims. Beyond that, please, demonstrate any mass scale, “conversion by sword,” actions of Christians in history. Also, keep in mind, the Crusades were a defensive action against the invasion of Islam from the Iberian peninsula, from Sicily, and from Turkey into Constantinople.


I see. Everyone on the planet has to forget about violence in the name of the Christian God, but accept that Islam is all about that violence!
I don’t think that is the case. Christians, to my knowledge are greatly shamed by those who acted violently towards others, even those who spoke violently against others. You will be hard pressed to find a Muslim who will speak that way (though I think there are probably many who feel that way).

To compare the depredation of Christendom to that of Islam as equal isn’t well advised. There is no factual demonstration beyond the very simple statement that Christens and Muslims have killed. Muslims have wiped out entire civilizations across Asia. Old civilizations. Some, such as in Pakistan, that we are only recently discovering ever existed. In my studies I’ve found few decades in all of history where Muslims weren’t massacring civilians (cf. Islam and Dhimmitude, Bat Yor.). The volume of blood on the hands of Muslims so vastly outweighs that of Christians that it is impossible to draw a comparison. And, to my knowledge, about ninety percent of all Christians were a consequence of proselytization, in contrast, about ninety percent of all Muslims were the consequence of forced conversion.


You may remain in ignorance for all I care. I will continue to argue against those who say that the Christian God is a hateful God despite your prejudice. The truth remains the truth no matter how people like you wish to perpetuate stupidity.

This is an unnecessary comment. The first person who uses angry words loses the argument. And from what I’ve read of your posts, you are too intelligent to so easily lose and argument like that.

God Bless,

Joel.

khalou
Apr 19th 2007, 11:47 PM
You are making a good argument. However, you are equivocating. You are making equal a specific with a general. God told his people to kill certain people. Muhammad told his people to kill all other people (who would not convert or accept dhimmitude). Christians were never told to kill anyone. Hebrews were told to kill the inhabitants of a very tiny spot on the earth. Also, you are confusing death penalty commands with military commands. Also, you are confusing the sins of the Hebrews with the commands of God.

My point is that Mohamed did NOT tell his people to kill all people. If I do your homework for you, will you promise to admit your are wrong?


I don’t really think you could really go on for pages and pages. Of course you could do so by elaborating ad nauseam on a point that could be explained in a typical paragraph, but that isn’t exactly efficient is it?

I could EASILY have gone on for pages and pages. I was using a source of which I only picked and chose a few stories from. The thing went on and on! It is your Bible, man! You know full well that I could have gone on and on for pages and pages. Why do you say things that aren't true?


Can you demonstrate this. I will put a note in here: The Spaniards did spread Christianity by force, but, for whatever weird reason, history generally fails to not that 1492 was not only the year that Columbus discovered the new world, but it was also the year that Spain finally drove out the Muslim invaders that had occupied them for hundreds of years. Hundreds of years (I think the invasion of the Iberian peninsula, Andelusia to the Muslims, begin in 750 or thereabouts) is quite long enough for cultural fusion to occur. By my reasoning the Spanish were heavily Islamized and therefore prone to act as Muslims in their proselytizing methods. The Germans did the same thing with the Jews, taking many ideas and methods from the Muslims. Beyond that, please, demonstrate any mass scale, “conversion by sword,” actions of Christians in history. Also, keep in mind, the Crusades were a defensive action against the invasion of Islam from the Iberian peninsula, from Sicily, and from Turkey into Constantinople.

You can't be serious.

Is this what it's come to? Even history itself is under the influence of prejudicial "faith-based" belief?

I leave you with a couple of things to read. They are not long, but would shed some light on your otherwise dark existence.

http://islam.about.com/od/terrorism/f/terrorism_verse.htm

http://www.suite101.com/lesson.cfm/19155/2795

In this last one, you discover that even Christians and Jews were happy that the Muslims conquered their "Christian" countries. Can you imagine why? Because they had more freedom to pursue their respective religions! The Quran does NOT condemn the "people of the Book"- the Christians and Jews- and history proves this.

Also, it is interesting to "discover" that the majority of Muslims do not live in the Middle East!


I don’t think that is the case. Christians, to my knowledge are greatly shamed by those who acted violently towards others, even those who spoke violently against others. You will be hard pressed to find a Muslim who will speak that way (though I think there are probably many who feel that way).

I can't believe what I'm hearing! MOST Muslims are absolutely against terrorism! Their Holy Book does not condone terrorism, nor the killing of non-combatants that aren't actually aggressive against them, nor suicide under ANY circumstances! Are you going to tell me what Muslims believe when I have actually studied Islam and have spoken to hundreds of Muslims on the subject? Your very statement shows me ABSOLUTELY that you are getting your information from public opinion.


To compare the depredation of Christendom to that of Islam as equal isn’t well advised. There is no factual demonstration beyond the very simple statement that Christens and Muslims have killed. Muslims have wiped out entire civilizations across Asia. Old civilizations. Some, such as in Pakistan, that we are only recently discovering ever existed. In my studies I’ve found few decades in all of history where Muslims weren’t massacring civilians (cf. Islam and Dhimmitude, Bat Yor.). The volume of blood on the hands of Muslims so vastly outweighs that of Christians that it is impossible to draw a comparison. And, to my knowledge, about ninety percent of all Christians were a consequence of proselytization, in contrast, about ninety percent of all Muslims were the consequence of forced conversion.

Your STUDIES!!

Islam preaches that, even when there is war, it is only to last as long as the enemy will fight. The SECOND they cease aggressions, they are to be IMMEDIATELY treated as guests. That's a far cry from killing every man, woman, and child and animal in the enemy's country, wouldn't you say?

When the crusaders tried to take Jerusalem the first time, they lost early, and the Muslim king ordered that they be fed and protected as they went back across the border. The second time the crusaders invaded, they won, and killed everyone in the city! Under Muslim rule, there were churches, mosques, and synagogues all over their land. Once the Christians took over, that was the end of all religions living in peace together. What have you been studying??


This is an unnecessary comment. The first person who uses angry words loses the argument. And from what I’ve read of your posts, you are too intelligent to so easily lose and argument like that.

God Bless,

Joel.

The first person who uses angry words has nothing to do with the evidence in reality on the subject at hand. Who made up the rule you're quoting?

k

khalou
Apr 20th 2007, 02:28 AM
By the way--


This is an unnecessary comment. The first person who uses angry words loses the argument. And from what I’ve read of your posts, you are too intelligent to so easily lose and argument like that.

I am not all that intelligent. What intelligence does it take to be open to information? Any idiot can read something, and look for what might show that that something is wrong.

If someone tells me that the Christian God is evil, and show me verses in the Bible that support that claim, I cannot, in good conscience, simply accept their conclusion simply because what they have presented seems conclusive.

They obviously have an opinion, and will present evidence to support that opinion. Who doesn't? But the truth might be better served by looking up what those who might disagree with them, and seeing for myself what the truth might be.

In the case of presenting evidence that the Christian God is evil, one discovers that this is easily taken out of context by those who don't understand Christianity, merely by asking Christians to explain that evidence.

Since I am not married to the Christian faith, I take what I hear about Allah in the same way. Boy, those verses that make Islam seem evil are pretty convincing!

But I don't immediately accept them as presented by those who aren't Muslims themselves. I do the same thing I do with Christianity. I ask.

And, in the case of Islam, I discover that there is little evidence that Islam is evil at all.

I see parallels between those who historically used Christianity to commit evils and those who use Islam for the same purpose. These parallels are so extremely identical that I can't help but wonder why Christians could ever agree to do the same to another religion!

You don't have to be intelligent to see these things. Simply open to the fact that you don't know until you know. :)

k

DreamWeaver
Apr 20th 2007, 11:35 AM
My point is that Mohamed did NOT tell his people to kill all people. If I do your homework for you, will you promise to admit your are wrong?
Then how do you explain this.

[4:89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

[17:16-17] When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet transgress; so that Allah's word is proved true against them: then we destroy them utterly. How many generations have we destroyed after Noah? And enough is thy Lord to note and see the Sins of his servants

[21:11] How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their inequities, setting up in their place other peoples



In this last one, you discover that even Christians and Jews were happy that the Muslims conquered their "Christian" countries. Can you imagine why? Because they had more freedom to pursue their respective religions! The Quran does NOT condemn the "people of the Book"- the Christians and Jews- and history proves this.

Try again.

[58:5] Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be crumbled to dust, as were those before them: for we have already sent down Clear Signs and the Unbelievers will have a humiliating Penalty

Muslims will repay Christians with an evil torment for rejecting the Quran?

[6:157] Or lest you (pagan Arabs) should say: "If only the Book had been sent down to us, we would surely have been better guided than they (Jews and Christians)." So now has come unto you a clear proof (the Qur'an) from your Lord, and a guidance and a mercy. Who then does more wrong than one who rejects the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah and turns away therefrom? We shall requite those who turn away from Our Ayat with an evil torment, because of their turning away (from them).

Muslims plant hatred of Christians?

[5:14] And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection (when they discarded Allah's Book, disobeyed Allah's Messengers and His Orders and transgressed beyond bounds in Allah's disobedience), and Allah will inform them of what they used to do.

Muslims should fight Christians?

[9:29] Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.



I can't believe what I'm hearing! MOST Muslims are absolutely against terrorism! Their Holy Book does not condone terrorism, nor the killing of non-combatants that aren't actually aggressive against them, nor suicide under ANY circumstances! Are you going to tell me what Muslims believe when I have actually studied Islam and have spoken to hundreds of Muslims on the subject?

See my statements above, from the koran.

As a Christian my beliefs are entirely incompatible with this. Christians believe that Jesus was the Christ and Messiah, and only through his sacrifice can we obtain salvation from God’s righteous judgement and eternal damnation in hell for our sin. Jesus preached an entirely different message than Muhammad, in his famous “Sermon on the Mount”. The Sermon on the Mount contains Jesus' best known advice on having a healthy relationship with God and people.


**** Mods, if I did wrong, by posting this please delete this post. ****

Resting in the hands, of Jesus Christ.
Bob

IamRyan
Apr 21st 2007, 12:45 AM
Your STUDIES!!

Islam preaches that, even when there is war, it is only to last as long as the enemy will fight. The SECOND they cease aggressions, they are to be IMMEDIATELY treated as guests. That's a far cry from killing every man, woman, and child and animal in the enemy's country, wouldn't you say?

Ok, is Israel or the United States attacking Iran? Nope. Oh! but I thought that we should be treated as guests. Man, the Islams over there are really nice! And, what about all the suicide bombers? If their religion was not about dying and killing for Allah, then why would they do this?

DreamWeaver
Apr 21st 2007, 01:52 AM
You really need to learn better study habits

You statements are full of holes khalou. But then again, the koran allows islam to lie, to non-believers.

[16:106] Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

[40:28] A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

[2:225] "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.

Resting in the gentle arms of my Lord.
Bob "aka" DreamWeaver

khalou
Apr 21st 2007, 04:09 AM
Then how do you explain this.

[4:89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

[17:16-17] When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet transgress; so that Allah's word is proved true against them: then we destroy them utterly. How many generations have we destroyed after Noah? And enough is thy Lord to note and see the Sins of his servants

[21:11] How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their inequities, setting up in their place other peoples



Try again.

[58:5] Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be crumbled to dust, as were those before them: for we have already sent down Clear Signs and the Unbelievers will have a humiliating Penalty

Muslims will repay Christians with an evil torment for rejecting the Quran?

[6:157] Or lest you (pagan Arabs) should say: "If only the Book had been sent down to us, we would surely have been better guided than they (Jews and Christians)." So now has come unto you a clear proof (the Qur'an) from your Lord, and a guidance and a mercy. Who then does more wrong than one who rejects the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah and turns away therefrom? We shall requite those who turn away from Our Ayat with an evil torment, because of their turning away (from them).

Muslims plant hatred of Christians?

[5:14] And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection (when they discarded Allah's Book, disobeyed Allah's Messengers and His Orders and transgressed beyond bounds in Allah's disobedience), and Allah will inform them of what they used to do.

Muslims should fight Christians?

[9:29] Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.



See my statements above, from the koran.

As a Christian my beliefs are entirely incompatible with this. Christians believe that Jesus was the Christ and Messiah, and only through his sacrifice can we obtain salvation from God’s righteous judgement and eternal damnation in hell for our sin. Jesus preached an entirely different message than Muhammad, in his famous “Sermon on the Mount”. The Sermon on the Mount contains Jesus' best known advice on having a healthy relationship with God and people.


**** Mods, if I did wrong, by posting this please delete this post. ****

Resting in the hands, of Jesus Christ.
Bob

Could you possibly tell me to whom these verses are being spoken and in what context? What was going on in the world at the time, and who was the enemy?

k

khalou
Apr 21st 2007, 04:14 AM
Your STUDIES!!

Islam preaches that, even when there is war, it is only to last as long as the enemy will fight. The SECOND they cease aggressions, they are to be IMMEDIATELY treated as guests. That's a far cry from killing every man, woman, and child and animal in the enemy's country, wouldn't you say?

Ok, is Israel or the United States attacking Iran? Nope. Oh! but I thought that we should be treated as guests. Man, the Islams over there are really nice! And, what about all the suicide bombers? If their religion was not about dying and killing for Allah, then why would they do this?

If you are so intent on misunderstanding, then there is little I could say to divert your agenda.

But I will try.

Are you under the impression that Iran is killing people? or at war with anyone?

If so, let me comfort you with this- no, they are not.

Are the people who bomb abortion clinics under orders from Christ?

I see.

k

khalou
Apr 21st 2007, 04:36 AM
You really need to learn better study habits

You statements are full of holes khalou. But then again, the koran allows islam to lie, to non-believers.

[16:106] Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

[40:28] A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

[2:225] "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.

Resting in the gentle arms of my Lord.
Bob "aka" DreamWeaver

Why are you doing this?

I might remind you that I have studied Islam for years. I have compared the various factions of Islam, just as I have compared the various factions of Christianity.

What you are doing is trying to convince me that it is prudent to believe the worst about any religion, and that those who believe anything other than the worst of them are probably telling the truth about that religion.

If you should win your argument, then I will happily come out against all religions, including Christianity, because instead of trying to decipher the "true" adherents, I will simply judge them by the worst of them.

And the worst of the religious easily out-evil the worst of the secular.

Of course, the best of the religious transcend even the best of the secular, but you are telling me to ignore that vast majority in the case of Islam.

I used to think that it would be a disservice to those faithful who believe in their true religions to do that, and I always disagreed with atheists that seemed to want to base their opinion of religion on what made the news.

In fact, I have been asked to not listen to the negative stories about the religious that make the news, and focus on the best possible interpretation of a religion because it is there that I might see God.

If you are unwilling to see what the vast majority of Islam sees, then I am equally unwilling to see what you claim that the "true" Christian believes- because it is certainly NOT the "vast majority" of Christians that pay any heed to the sermon on the mount!

Your Bible represents one evil God story after another. Your God is about as "wise" as an angry baby that wants what it wants when it wants it, and is willing to kill anyone that disagrees, even when that same God is responsible for the misunderstanding!

*edited comment*

I think I'll go to my Islam message board in order to cleanse myself of your prejudice.

k

Acicular Oculus
Apr 21st 2007, 05:05 AM
Well, I must admit that I too have studied the history of Islam. There is a considerable difference between our takes I will grant though. Now, I gave you a scholarly work to study. You gave me websites. Perhaps that distinguishes the difference between our studies.


My point is that Mohamed did NOT tell his people to kill all people. If I do your homework for you, will you promise to admit your are wrong?
I pretty much took care of your statement with this statement:

“Muhammad told his people to kill all other people (who would not convert or accept dhimmitude).”
First, I don’t think you understand dhimmitude. Dhimmitude is a situation where the ‘people of the book’ are taken into a form of slavery. Their property largely confiscated through a form of attrition and their capacity to worship is greatly reduced. They cannot ring church bells, construct new churches, make noise while worshiping, proselytize, etc. They are forced to wear conspicuous clothing, to stand in the presence of a Muslim, to move out of the way of a Muslim, etc. The usage of polygamy by Muslims, whether intentional or not, was a form of quite genocide, as well.

Umar ibn al-Khattab, the first caliph (634-644 AD.) to articulate dhimma forced the Christians to make this pact:

“We made a condition on ourselves that we will neither erect in our areas a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk, nor restore any place of worship that needs restoration nor use any of them for the purposes of enmity against Muslims.”

The enmity clause of course allowed Muslims to destroy churches at their leisure since any action could be accused of them and they couldn’t legally defend themselves.

The ‘agreement’ went on to state that the Christians will: Respect Muslims and move from the place they are sitting if a Muslim chooses to sit there, not imitate their clothing, hairstyles, speech, nicknames, ride on saddles, or carry weapons. And, Christians must, have their front of their head shaved, wear customary clothing, and wear conspicuous belts. Cf. Qur’an, 9:29,

“You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.”


When paying their taxes (jizya) the tax collector is instructed, in many cases, to grasp the person by the beard and slap him or beat him about the neck and back. They were persistently abused. They could not functionally testify in a legal case against a Muslim. The thirteenth century jurist, al-Nawawi, said this,

“The infidel who wishes to pay his poll tax must be treated with disdain by the collector: the collector remains seated and the infidel remains standing in front of him, his head bowed and his back bent. The infidel personally must place the money on the scales, while the collector holds him by the beard, and strikes him on both cheeks.”

Really, this goes on and on. It is documented history, not internet propaganda.


I could EASILY have gone on for pages and pages.
Oh, I concede that. But really, you wouldn’t accomplish much since brief synopsis would convey the gist of the information. Remember, brevity


Is this what it's come to? Even history itself is under the influence of prejudicial "faith-based" belief?
Well, yes. You didn’t know that?


In this last one, you discover that even Christians and Jews were happy that the Muslims conquered their "Christian" countries. Can you imagine why? Because they had more freedom to pursue their respective religions! The Qur’an does NOT condemn the "people of the Book"- the Christians and Jews- and history proves this.
What an astounding thing to suggest. That is equivalent to suggesting that a woman feels pleasure if she is raped by a man who killed the husband she disliked.

Consider my above statements. I actually can retrieve for you massacre by massacre examples with references if you wish. But, that would be quite time consuming and I’m not sure you would accept even documented history.

In the taking of Egypt in 642 the Muslims, in the town of Nikiou met no resistance, not a single soldier, they in reward slaughtered every inhabitant of the town. This happened all over Egypt during the conquest and the aftermath. In Armenia, the same thing, butchery, rape, and pillage.

In the fourteenth century Tamerlane slaughtered 100,000 Indians in a single day.

Speaking of Armenia, or specifically, Armenians, at the end of WW1 the Turks slaughtered a million Armenians and, I believe, about a half a million Greeks.


Throughout Spain, contrary to popular myth, Muslims slaughtered Christians and Jews. Muslims have slaughtered ‘the people of the book’ throughout history, it is documented, and if you want to find the information, it is available.


I can't believe what I'm hearing! MOST Muslims are absolutely against terrorism! Their Holy Book does not condone terrorism, nor the killing of non-combatants that aren't actually aggressive against them, nor suicide under ANY circumstances! Are you going to tell me what Muslims believe when I have actually studied Islam and have spoken to hundreds of Muslims on the subject? Your very statement shows me ABSOLUTELY that you are getting your information from public opinion.

Most? Exactly how did you arrive at this conclusion. Perhaps you should tell that to the Buddhists in Thailand...

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/25/news/thailand.php

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/070411/3/305uj.html

http://news.netscape.com/story/2007/03/07/buddhist-tapper-beheaded-in-thai-muslim-south/

Or maybe you should tell that to the women being murdered by the state in Iran. I’ve read that women are executed daily. The article was by a woman who was in that prison. She experienced the daily shootings of women for, what in this country, would be considered minor infractions if crimes at all.

Or, simply tell that to women living in Islam in general when to be raped is to be sentenced to death in many cases. You do know that the Qur’an dictates that a woman’s legal testimony is only worth half that of a man’s?

What the Qur’an has to say:

5:64:–“The Jews say: "(Allah)'s hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.”

8:38-29–“Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).
And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.”

8:60–“Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.”

9:111–“Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.”

9:29–“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

And on and on.


Islam preaches that, even when there is war, it is only to last as long as the enemy will fight. The SECOND they cease aggressions, they are to be IMMEDIATELY treated as guests. That's a far cry from killing every man, woman, and child and animal in the enemy's country, wouldn't you say?
The Koran says many things. And more importantly are the interpretations and the uses of them. Muslims have slaughtered man woman and child many times over. Those men, women, and children who died on 911 are but a tiny fraction. The sole use of the Qur’an in the description of the commandments of Islam is a canard. Shari’a Law and the four legal schools dictate what Islam is since they interpret the Qur’an and dissiminate it.

You clearly read commentary, I submit however that you would be better served if you would find some scholarly works and read those.


The first person who uses angry words has nothing to do with the evidence in reality on the subject at hand. Who made up the rule you're quoting?

Its really just a bit of wisdom. Consider it a suggestion. You, by no means, have to take it.

Good night and God bless,

Joel.

DreamWeaver
Apr 21st 2007, 05:15 AM
Could you possibly tell me to whom these verses are being spoken and in what context? What was going on in the world at the time, and who was the enemy?

k
Both Muslim holy books (qur'an/koran and hadith) contain commands for Muslims to subjugate the world, militarily. Muhammad commanded Muslims to spread Islam through Offensive Jihad, or conquest of non-Muslim lands. Muslims are also commanded to take back any land that was formerly Muslim, such as Israel.

A false prophet can always be recognized, because he attacks the true prophet. A false Bible can be recognized, because it contradicts the true Bible.

Islam goes one step further. First islam tries to gain acceptance by attesting to the truth and validity of both the Christian and Jewish holy books. But, it then clearly steps out of the light, exposing itself to its diabolical agenda, by contradicting and falsifying the facts and teachings in both these books.

Also, question the "dark side" of a Religion such as Islam that requires you to only recite salah and prayers like the Namaz, in a language (Arabic) you do not understand. All muslims, Arab and non-Arab alike, are obliged to pray in Arabic. Even if you do not understand a single word. Muslims are also required to read the Qur'an in Arabic, in order to attain any graces at all from Allah. It is not necessary that the person can understand even a word of what he is reading. This is what the warning means that Jesus left us with, when he said; "insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Most muslims do repetitive prayers in a language (Arabic) which they do not understand.

The Christian Bible predates Muhammad and islam by 500 years. The Jewish Torah predates Muhammad and islam by 1,000 - 3,000 years.

Islam doesn't even have an original koran. It was made up supposedly from "memory" and a few scraps found under a bed. This was about 150 - 200 years after Muhammad died at his wife Ayish's home in Medina, and he was lowered into a hole in the ground, where he remains to this day.

Mohammad m,arried Ayish when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years. That makes Mohammad a pedophile in my eyes. But that is only, my thoughts on this. Others need to decide for themselves.

The oldest koran dates from around 790 A.D. (after Jesus), and it is in the British Library. That's 158 years after Muhammad’s death.

Most muslims accept something like the traditional islamic version; they say that Muhammad put forth verses and laws that he claimed to be of divine origin; that his followers memorized or wrote down his revelations, that numerous versions of these revelations circulated after his death in 632 A.D, and that Uthman ordered the collection and ordering of this mass of material in the time period 650-656. Here lies the problem, Muhammad couldn't read or write.

The verses (laws) I posted are still used to this day. The Muslim community is paying more attention towards the law verses or “ayat al-ahkam” in studying the Koran.

The Koran sets down basic standards of human conduct, but does not provide a detailed law code. Only a few verses deal with legal matters. During his lifetime, Muhammad helped clarify the law by interpreting provisions in the Koran and acting as a judge in legal cases. Thus, Islamic law, the Sharia, became an integral part of the Muslim religion.

After Muhammad's death in A.D. 632, companions of Muhammad ruled Arabia for about 30 years. These political-religious rulers, called caliphs, continued to develop Islamic law with their own pronouncements and decisions. The first caliphs also conquered territories outside Arabia including Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Persia, and Egypt. As a result, elements of Jewish, Greek, Roman, Persian, and Christian church law also influenced the development of the Sharia. Islamic law grew along with the expanding Muslim Empire.

The Umayyad dynasty caliphs, who took control of the empire in 661, extended Islam into India, Northwest Africa, and Spain. The Umayyads appointed Islamic judges, kadis, to decide cases involving Muslims. (Non-Muslims kept their own legal system.) Knowledgeable about the Koran and the teachings of Muhammad, kadis decided cases in all areas of the law.

Following a period of revolts and civil war, the Umayyads were overthrown in 750 and replaced by the Abbasid dynasty. During the 500-year rule of the Abbasids, the Sharia reached its full development.

Under their absolute rule, the Abbasids transferred substantial areas of criminal law from the kadis to the government. The kadis continued to handle cases involving religious, family, property, and commercial law.

You full know well what I'm talking about here, if you have "studied islam."

TEITZY
Apr 21st 2007, 05:37 AM
Are the people who bomb abortion clinics under orders from Christ?

I see.

k

And therein lies the heart of the issue. Is 'Christians' bombing abortion clinics consistent with the life & teachings of Christ and the interpretation of these beliefs by the leaders of mainstream Christianity? Obviously not. However when we look at the life and teachings of Muhammad and leaders of Islam today we see that murder, rape, deception etc. is consistent with what they practice & preach. Yes there a few moderate voices crying in the wilderness but these are far and few between.

Perhaps you really need to leave the relative safety of your computer and Islamic message board and go live in Indonesia, Iran or Saudi Arabia (a supposedly 'moderate' Islamic state) and see how Islam works in the real world so you can truly appreciate all the benefits and freedoms that come with living under Sharia law.

By the way, do you use the same tone and diatribe with your friends on the Islamic board as you do here? No doubt you tread more carefully when pointing out any deficiencies in their faith or prophet or God.

Cheers
Leigh

khalou
Apr 21st 2007, 06:42 AM
From what I read, you said it very well to Joel. I'm glad to see, I'm not the only one who has studied islam. I would say that khalou has quite a few, bad study habits.

You guys have convinced me that we will be fighting this war of imaginary enemies forever.

The prophet Mohammed (pbhn) has surely declared that there should be no compulsion in religion. He has also proclaimed that he who ends the life of one man also ends the life of all humanity. He who abandons kindness abandons the one true religion. He prayed for his enemies, and asserts that Allah is merciful, and that one can not know who among his enemies might be righteous.

As an atheist, I find myself in the interesting position of defending yet another faith.:)

The difference is that I am now defending a faith who's adherents are in the majority of those who profess it. In the case of Christianity, I defend it against the majority of its adherents.

And I base my opinion on a secular view of morality.

Islam is evil, huh?

Good luck convincing anyone that Christianity is good then.

The vast majority of Islam will tell you that terrorism is wrong.

I wonder where they get that idea?

I suppose they should be listening to you about their religion. According to your opinion, they are misinterpreting their scriptures.

I suppose you are willing to listen to those who tell you that you are misinterpreting your own scriptures? When people tell you that eternal hell is an unconscionable evil that no one deserves, I'm thinking that you could tell them that they are misinterpreting your beliefs.

The thing I think you and I need to pay the most attention to is the pain and sorrow that is being perpetuated by the misinterpretation of a people's religion. When you say with the confidence of a fool that Islam is all about killing, you are accusing the majority of those who follow that religion of not living up to their morality.

Meanwhile, when someone accuses Christians of not living up to morality, the answer is always that not all who claim to be Christians are really Christians. AND IT IS THE MAJORITY OF CHRISTIANS THAT DON'T LIVE UP TO THAT STANDARD!

This is why the world would be better off without the fantasies of gods and goddesses. You guys fight each other based on the most ridiculous arguments I can imagine.

All that aside- I will agree that the verses that you have presented show horrible things. I will agree that Islam is horrible. But what I can't do is separate Islam from Christianity. Your argument tells me that when I read horrible things, no matter what those who believe in the religion that holds them as sacred say, they are horrible.

Thank you for making things easier.

And just by the way, how do you live with yourself believing in the God you believe in?

k

DreamWeaver
Apr 21st 2007, 06:43 AM
Are the people who bomb abortion clinics under orders from Christ?

As Christians we all know that abortion is evil, and a sin.

But a Christian who bombs an abortion clinic, shoots an abortionist, and says..... God told them to do it, does that act against the Word.

But the muslim who commits acts of violence in jihad, does it with approval of muhammad and the koran.

And with this post, I say good night and may God bless y'all.

khalou
Apr 21st 2007, 07:00 AM
And therein lies the heart of the issue. Is 'Christians' bombing abortion clinics consistent with the life & teachings of Christ and the interpretation of these beliefs by the leaders of mainstream Christianity? Obviously not. However when we look at the life and teachings of Muhammad and leaders of Islam today we see that murder, rape, deception etc. is consistent with what they practice & preach. Yes there a few moderate voices crying in the wilderness but these are far and few between.

Perhaps you really need to leave the relative safety of your computer and Islamic message board and go live in Indonesia, Iran or Saudi Arabia (a supposedly 'moderate' Islamic state) and see how Islam works in the real world so you can truly appreciate all the benefits and freedoms that come with living under Sharia law.

By the way, do you use the same tone and diatribe with your friends on the Islamic board as you do here? No doubt you tread more carefully when pointing out any deficiencies in their faith or prophet or God.

Cheers
Leigh

That settles it.

I am easily treated more lovingly by Islamics than Christians. But your statement shows me that you are also under the impression that the Christian religion is "better" and more accepting.

Did you miss it when I said that MOST Muslims believe in peace above all things, and aren't news makers?

If I were to judge the truth of a religion based on the majority of its adherents, I'd have to choose Judaism, but Islam would be second.

Christianity shows love in only a minority of those who profess to believe in it. The fruits of the spirit are only shown in a few Christians out of a hundred.

In my time here, I have all but been told that this is the case by posters here. The way is narrow.

That could mean that Christianity is actually the truth, don't get me wrong.

But for anyone to tell me that another religion should be judged by people who don't even subscribe to that religion more so than what the majority of the faithful say about that religion is a BIG mistake. If I ever believed that that was a good idea, then Christianity would be the LAST religion I'd consider.

Matter of fact, this whole post has convinced me that even considering Christianity as being true was a stupid thing to do.

Christianity should be judged exactly like Christianity judges other religions, don't you think?

If Christianity judges Islam according to the worst of what can be gleaned from the Quran, then Christianity should be judged according to the worst of what can be gleaned from the Bible, don't you think?

k

khalou
Apr 21st 2007, 07:06 AM
As Christians we all know that abortion is evil, and a sin.

But a Christian who bombs an abortion clinic, shoots an abortionist, and says..... God told them to do it, does that act against the Word.

But the muslim who commits acts of violence in jihad, does it with approval of muhammad and the koran.

And with this post, I say good night and may God bless y'all.


BULL!

A Christian that bombs an abortion clinic is acting as an avenger of God. He is saving the lives of future victims!

But a Muslim that commits terrorism is acting against the message of the prophet. First of all, he kills non-combatants- sin. Secondly, he kills himself- sin. Thirdly, he doesn't act according to faith in Allah and His mercy- sin.

The MAJORITY of Muslims believe what I'm saying.

Why is it difficult for you to accept that you are wrong?

k

TEITZY
Apr 21st 2007, 07:54 AM
Christianity should be judged exactly like Christianity judges other religions, don't you think?

If Christianity judges Islam according to the worst of what can be gleaned from the Quran, then Christianity should be judged according to the worst of what can be gleaned from the Bible, don't you think?

k

Christianity should be judged by Christ and His teachings just Islam should be jugded by Muhammad and his teachings. The value of any religion is not measured by what the majority of its adherents believe or do, but rather what the teachings and actions of its founders. To say you prefer Islam over Christianity is basically saying that Muhammad is superior to Christ. So by all means use Muhammad as your role model just as Bin laden, Arafat and a host of other murderers have. Give me Christ any day!

Cheers
Leigh

dljc
Apr 21st 2007, 02:24 PM
Before this thread gets more heated than it already is. I think it's time we close it.