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ikester7579
Apr 24th 2007, 06:14 AM
I post this picture just to show that even way back when, there were people who wanted it to be true so bad. That even with the little evidence for it. They were already trying to declare it true.

http://www.yecheadquarters.org/images/evolution/Darwin_true.jpg

Darwin wrote his book in 1859. And in 1912 it's is already declared true? So in 53 years they found enough evidence to declare it true. So what happened? And why does anyone think they would jump the gun so quick?

dworthington
Apr 24th 2007, 10:38 AM
Ike..can I call you Ike? I think you know why, they don't want to believe Genesis 1:1, In the beginng God.........

Owen
Apr 24th 2007, 11:25 AM
I have a question. What if evolution is true? Does that invalidate your faith? Does faith hinge on creationism? Because it often times seems that many creationists treat creationism as the basis for their faith.

I ask because so much importance is placed upon it, and it should be studied, but it is often times portrayed as a measuring stick of ones Christianity.

I don't necessarily believe evolution. Nor do I necessarily believe that everything spontaneously appeared. I don't know what to believe, but it doesn't matter to me because I don't place my faith in evolution or creationism. I place my faith and my life in the God who created it all and who knows what happened.

That fact is, no one here truly knows how humanity came to being. Scientists claim, but by mere conjecture. Christians claim to know, but based upon their interpretation of Genesis which presupposes their understanding of how to interpret is correct. Both groups are largely prideful as neither group was there or has experienced in any way the formation of humanity, but instead base something as fact based upon their conjecture, either in science or interpretation.

And then both are misleading by claiming the other group has little evidence. Here is a little fact. There is plenty of evidence that neither side can explain without making wacky arguments. This whole "they have little evidence" that comes from both side is rooted in pride and trying to brush things aside without honest investigation. As of right now, any truly honest person studying all the scientific evidence for both sides would not truly know what to believe.

BTW yes, I do take the Bible as literal (in a broad sense) and true.

punk
Apr 24th 2007, 06:09 PM
To call a scientific theory "true" is simply to say that it is the best explanation we presently have for the body of data it addresses.

The theory of evolution simply has no viable competitors able to address the full range of what it addresses.

dworthington
Apr 24th 2007, 10:46 PM
Isn't observation important to science? The Bible gives us an accout of origins from the Creator Who observed His Creation and called it good. He, the Creator then wrote in stone His commandments wherin He stated He created in 6 days. That sounds much more scientific to me then the macro-evolution theories.

punk
Apr 24th 2007, 10:49 PM
Isn't observation important to science? The Bible gives us an accout of origins from the Creator Who observed His Creation and called it good. He, the Creator then wrote in stone His commandments wherin He stated He created in 6 days. That sounds much more scientific to me then the macro-evolution theories.

Science only values observation when it can be independently repeated by multiple parties.

The idea is that, in principle, any one of us could go out and make the same observation.

The observations of any isolated individual, while maybe interesting, are scientifically valueless.

gin_koneko
Apr 25th 2007, 01:49 AM
I've seen this a lot of different ways, but what I currently believe, and what my school teaches, is theistic evolution. The simple way to explain is that God created the Universe to be adaptable in nature; to develop and change as circumstances require and not to remain static in the face of a world that is constantly alternating, moving and adjusting. Theistic evolution explains why creatures have changed over time and why some currently exist that haven't been around long, while others from a long time ago have died out.

GothicAngel
Apr 25th 2007, 01:53 AM
I've seen this a lot of different ways, but what I currently believe, and what my school teaches, is theistic evolution. The simple way to explain is that God created the Universe to be adaptable in nature; to develop and change as circumstances require and not to remain static in the face of a world that is constantly alternating, moving and adjusting. Theistic evolution explains why creatures have changed over time and why some currently exist that haven't been around long, while others from a long time ago have died out.
But you have to remember that while microevolution- which is the variation within species- is very apparent within nature, there is no hard evidence for macroevolution, the actual changing of the genetic structure... I doubt it is true

ikester7579
Apr 25th 2007, 02:08 AM
Ike..can I call you Ike? I think you know why, they don't want to believe Genesis 1:1, In the beginng God.........

That was my nick name when I was younger. When I got into computer gaming onlne (which I don't do anymore), I had to come up with a unique name so that my friends could find me. One friend who I grew up with came up with ikester, and it kinda stuck. Added the 7579 because someone else thought it was a cool name and used it as well. So yeah, no problem.

ikester7579
Apr 25th 2007, 02:35 AM
I have a question. What if evolution is true? Does that invalidate your faith? Does faith hinge on creationism? Because it often times seems that many creationists treat creationism as the basis for their faith.

I ask because so much importance is placed upon it, and it should be studied, but it is often times portrayed as a measuring stick of ones Christianity.

I don't necessarily believe evolution. Nor do I necessarily believe that everything spontaneously appeared. I don't know what to believe, but it doesn't matter to me because I don't place my faith in evolution or creationism. I place my faith and my life in the God who created it all and who knows what happened.

That fact is, no one here truly knows how humanity came to being. Scientists claim, but by mere conjecture. Christians claim to know, but based upon their interpretation of Genesis which presupposes their understanding of how to interpret is correct. Both groups are largely prideful as neither group was there or has experienced in any way the formation of humanity, but instead base something as fact based upon their conjecture, either in science or interpretation.

And then both are misleading by claiming the other group has little evidence. Here is a little fact. There is plenty of evidence that neither side can explain without making wacky arguments. This whole "they have little evidence" that comes from both side is rooted in pride and trying to brush things aside without honest investigation. As of right now, any truly honest person studying all the scientific evidence for both sides would not truly know what to believe.

BTW yes, I do take the Bible as literal (in a broad sense) and true.

Well at one point I did not think it was important either. Until I got into really studying it. I found that God's creation is also God's Alpha. Not that He has a begining, but this is the begining he chose for us. So to deny His choice for our life upon this earth, is to deny that we were even created.

Evolution is the direct opposite of God's creation:

Creation: Earth before sun.
Evolution: Sun before earth.

Creation: Oceans before land.
Evolution: Land before oceans.

Creation: Light before sun.
Evolution: Sun before light.

Creation: Land plants first.
Evolution: Marine life first.

Creation: Fruit trees before fish.
Evolution: Fish before fruit trees.

Creation: Fish before insects.
Evolution: Insects before fish.

Creation: Plants before the sun.
Evolution: Sun before plants.

Creation: Marine mammals before land mammals.
Evolution: Land mammals before marine mammals.

Creation: Birds before reptiles.
Evolution: Reptiles before birds.

Creation: Man brought death into the world.
Evolution: Death brought man into the world.

Creation: God created man.
Evolution: Man created God (one excuse not to believe).

Etc.....

And I have seen it destroy a persons faith in God. And I can leave a direct example of that if it were allowed to leave a link to another forum. Were a member not only denouced literal belief in creation. But soon after denouced God. All right on a Christian forum.

On this forum 2 years ago, I ministered to a member who almost lost their faith to evolution as well. It took almost 6 months to help lay the foundation needed to make her faith strong. And more than a year to take her to a place where her faith is strong enough where she now ministers to others in need (I'm not going to say who she is here, so don't ask). But she has given permission for me to mention this if it helps someone.

To sum it up:

1) Evolution is the opposite of God's creation for only one reason. It is a direct challenge to what God says is true. And is a direct challenge to the power of God to create.

2tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2) Anything that can make one loose their faith is not of God.

rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

3) Evolution makes nature into god.

rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

4) And evolution is used for religious bigotry as well.

http://www.yecheadquarters.org/shame_part2.4.html

For what supports God, and is of God, cannot be used against God. Unless it's truth has been twisted.

I just thought of a good question: Why does evolution even need to be declared true?

GothicAngel
Apr 25th 2007, 12:35 PM
Creation: Earth before sun.
Evolution: Sun before earth.

Creation: Oceans before land.
Evolution: Land before oceans.

Creation: Light before sun.
Evolution: Sun before light.


Evolution says nothing on this. Evolution concerns life, not planets.

Owen
Apr 25th 2007, 03:22 PM
And I have seen it destroy a persons faith in God. And I can leave a direct example of that if it were allowed to leave a link to another forum. Were a member not only denouced literal belief in creation. But soon after denouced God. All right on a Christian forum.

On this forum 2 years ago, I ministered to a member who almost lost their faith to evolution as well. It took almost 6 months to help lay the foundation needed to make her faith strong. And more than a year to take her to a place where her faith is strong enough where she now ministers to others in need (I'm not going to say who she is here, so don't ask). But she has given permission for me to mention this if it helps someone.

Part of this is the fault of creationists that insist that evolution means one denies God and that in order to believe God one must accept creationism. In the minds of many, it is presented as if you believe in evolution, you must become atheist, because many people hinge their faith on creationist ideal. And therein lies my problem with dogmatic creationism. I don't have a problem with idea of creationism itself, but the dogmatism placed upon it by some, the pride exhibited by many, the exaggerations or down right deceptions, and the vilification of many people. Ironically enough, some evolutionists and creationists have more in common than they have different.

Put it to you this way. I was always taught that if I believe in evolution, I was rejecting God. So I fought long and hard to try to reject any idea of evolution because I believed in God. But when there were arguments that can not be answered without some wacky, off the wall idea, it would cause a struggle in faith because I was told if evolution is true then there is no God. But of course, I got over the misconception and so even though I have doubts about creationism (and evolution as well), my faith does not hinge on it.

Evolution destroys people's faith because many say that evolution denies God, and many people believed that to be true and thus if they see evolution as true they then begin to deny God as a result. It is almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy.


To sum it up:

1) Evolution is the opposite of God's creation for only one reason. It is a direct challenge to what God says is true. And is a direct challenge to the power of God to create.

It is a direct challenge to what you think God says and means is a more precise way to put it.


2) Anything that can make one loose their faith is not of God.

The idea of the sacrifice of Christ being necessary to save people can make people lose faith in God, but that doesn't make it wrong.


3) Evolution makes nature into god.

Only because creationists argue it so because they have to exaggerate any system of thought that denies their theory.


4) And evolution is used for religious bigotry as well.

And Christianity as been used for bigotry as well. Shall we get into the history of America? Christianity has been used as a justification for murder and genocide. Shall we claim Christianity is wrong because of the abuses of some?


For what supports God, and is of God, cannot be used against God. Unless it's truth has been twisted.

And if evolution is true, and it is used for religious bigotry, it has been twisted.


I just thought of a good question: Why does evolution even need to be declared true?

It doesn't. No more than creationism should be declared true either.

BuffaloSoldier
Apr 26th 2007, 05:00 AM
Is evolution true?


Yeah. Sadly, less than half of the American population actually understands the theory of evolution.

dworthington
Apr 26th 2007, 10:42 AM
Change within species is true, change from one sepcie to another is not.

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 26th 2007, 10:51 AM
What I cannot figure out when it comes to trying to make the Bible and evolution work is the following: Does Genesis not say that man was made in the image of God? Now...if man evolved from apes, at which stage did man 'become' in the image of God? Was the ape in the image of God? I'm sure you will not insult my God by assuming such a thing? Or did the ape evolve into the image of God?

Give me a break.

GothicAngel
Apr 26th 2007, 02:08 PM
What I cannot figure out when it comes to trying to make the Bible and evolution work is the following: Does Genesis not say that man was made in the image of God? Now...if man evolved from apes, at which stage did man 'become' in the image of God? Was the ape in the image of God? I'm sure you will not insult my God by assuming such a thing? Or did the ape evolve into the image of God?

Give me a break.
Although I dont believe in evolution, let me ask you, Pilgrim:

What does God look like? Is He not only spirit? Wouldnt that make it that mans soul is what the image of God is?

GothicAngel
Apr 26th 2007, 02:09 PM
Change within species is true, change from one sepcie to another is not.
Technically, thats not eaxctly true.

Remember about the domesticated dogs and wild dogs- they becane seperate species, but only because some domestics cannot interbreed with the wild ones.

Theres one example, but I think the only one. There is no evidnece for species mutation into other species tho

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 26th 2007, 02:11 PM
Although I dont believe in evolution, let me ask you, Pilgrim:

What does God look like? Is He not only spirit? Wouldnt that make it that mans soul is what the image of God is?

Certainly God is Spirit. And man with his intellect, emotion, and will, and spirit that was made to govern the whole of human faculties was made in the image of God. I certainly do not see all of that in an ape.

GothicAngel
Apr 26th 2007, 02:13 PM
Certainly God is Spirit. And man with his intellect, emotion, and will, and spirit that was made to govern the whole of human faculties was made in the image of God. I certainly do not see all of that in an ape.
I must agree with you; however supposing evolution is true, couldnt the soul have entered whenever the Homo Sapiens or whatev evolved?

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 26th 2007, 02:18 PM
I must agree with you; however supposing evolution is true, couldnt the soul have entered whenever the Homo Sapiens or whatev evolved?

I suppose one could come up with a lot of fantastic theories. But to claim those theories are in line with the Biblical account of God making man in His image...no. It would not work with God breathing His spirit into man and him becoming a living being as described in Genesis.

ikester7579
Apr 26th 2007, 02:22 PM
Evolution says nothing on this. Evolution concerns life, not planets.

How many types of evolution are there?

Cosmic Evolution-the origin of time space and matter from the big bang. Big bang-infinitesimal region that spun around really fast and then broke apart.

Chemical Evolution-the origin of more complex elements that came from the hydrogen produced by the big bang.

Stellar and Planetary Evolution- the origin of stars and planets form dust clouds

Organic Evolution-life from non-living things

Macroevolution-one kind animal changes into another like an ameba slowly becoming an elephant

Microevolution-the variations that occur within the kinds such as dogs and wolves having a common ancestor.



And all of this is required for evolution of life to happen.

ikester7579
Apr 26th 2007, 02:43 PM
Part of this is the fault of creationists that insist that evolution means one denies God and that in order to believe God one must accept creationism. In the minds of many, it is presented as if you believe in evolution, you must become atheist, because many people hinge their faith on creationist ideal. And therein lies my problem with dogmatic creationism. I don't have a problem with idea of creationism itself, but the dogmatism placed upon it by some, the pride exhibited by many, the exaggerations or down right deceptions, and the vilification of many people. Ironically enough, some evolutionists and creationists have more in common than they have different.

So are we to compromise the faith to please the masses conclusion about what happened on the subject of origins. I also believe this to be a huge fault of why the body of Christ has become weak in the faith. And why so many who do not believe look at the people who do compromise the faith and say: Why should I change when they do practically the samething I'm doing. Is compromise the example we should set for others about the God we believe in?


Put it to you this way. I was always taught that if I believe in evolution, I was rejecting God. So I fought long and hard to try to reject any idea of evolution because I believed in God. But when there were arguments that can not be answered without some wacky, off the wall idea, it would cause a struggle in faith because I was told if evolution is true then there is no God. But of course, I got over the misconception and so even though I have doubts about creationism (and evolution as well), my faith does not hinge on it.


For some their faith does hinge on this. So to compromise it only opens the door to also weaken it.


Evolution destroys people's faith because many say that evolution denies God, and many people believed that to be true and thus if they see evolution as true they then begin to deny God as a result. It is almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The person who thought it up, Darwin, was actually training to become a minister and missionary. Now why did he give that up? He did it because he pondered a theory that shook the very foundation of his faith. Now how can we do what even Darwin could not do? Which is try and say: God created through evolution.

By the way, at what point did we get a soul during the evolution process?


It is a direct challenge to what you think God says and means is a more precise way to put it.

Well start a thread on what you think happened, back it up with God's word and we can debate it.


The idea of the sacrifice of Christ being necessary to save people can make people lose faith in God, but that doesn't make it wrong.

I have yet to run into someone who has lost their faith for that reason.


Only because creationists argue it so because they have to exaggerate any system of thought that denies their theory.

Well maybe we should not speak at all? Maybe we should allow evolution to dominate and the word of God banned? This is their intension, and I can show you where on evolution sites and forums where they constantly are trying to get this done.


And Christianity as been used for bigotry as well. Shall we get into the history of America? Christianity has been used as a justification for murder and genocide. Shall we claim Christianity is wrong because of the abuses of some?

And if evolution is true, and it is used for religious bigotry, it has been twisted.

It doesn't. No more than creationism should be declared true either.

So which do you believe in more, Darwin, or God's word? I ask this because you are using the same exact arguements that atheists use all the time.

GothicAngel
Apr 26th 2007, 10:06 PM
I suppose one could come up with a lot of fantastic theories. But to claim those theories are in line with the Biblical account of God making man in His image...no. It would not work with God breathing His spirit into man and him becoming a living being as described in Genesis.
How can that be not possible with evolution?

ikester7579
Apr 27th 2007, 11:12 AM
How can that be not possible with evolution?

Show some verses that support evolution. I have yet to find any.

In the creation process, there are three types of creation.

1) Created: Which means to create from nothing.
2) Made: Which is to form something from what has already been created.
3) Bring forth: Which is commanding what has already been created to bring forth another creation.

In all three creations, life either comes from nothing. Or it is created from dead matter that is given life. Never is it said that one life bring forth another type life. Such as if God had commanded the animals to bring forth man. Man instead was created from the dust of the earth (dead matter).

humbled
Apr 27th 2007, 04:29 PM
I don't know what to believe, but it doesn't matter to me because I don't place my faith in evolution or creationism. I place my faith and my life in the God who created it all and who knows what happened.huh?
.............

ThinkingFaith
May 5th 2007, 03:28 PM
Show some verses that support evolution. I have yet to find any.

In the creation process, there are three types of creation.

1) Created: Which means to create from nothing.
2) Made: Which is to form something from what has already been created.
3) Bring forth: Which is commanding what has already been created to bring forth another creation.

In all three creations, life either comes from nothing. Or it is created from dead matter that is given life. Never is it said that one life bring forth another type life. Such as if God had commanded the animals to bring forth man. Man instead was created from the dust of the earth (dead matter).

Ike, do you believe the scripture is ever mistaken? The reason I ask is because of several passages I have trouble reconciling with things we know to be true in the natural world. In those cases do you see it as being a bad translation or is it possible you see the scripture as incorrect?

GothicAngel
May 5th 2007, 03:38 PM
Show some verses that support evolution. I have yet to find any.

Theyre right in there along with the verses to support geo centrism, chronic obstructive pulmonary disorder, and Jesus marriage ;)



In the creation process, there are three types of creation.

1) Created: Which means to create from nothing.


Evolution deals with something alive. Where did it come from? Creatd, abiogenesis, or whatever is not in evooultion


2) Made: Which is to form something from what has already been created.
3) Bring forth: Which is commanding what has already been created to bring forth another creation.

In all three creations, life either comes from nothing. Or it is created from dead matter that is given life. Never is it said that one life bring forth another type life. Such as if God had commanded the animals to bring forth man. Man instead was created from the dust of the earth (dead matter).

Evolution does not deal with the ultimate source of life. Dust, or whatever, that is a diffenrt field

But surely you do not not blieve in micrevolution too, do you? Because it is pretty evident, lots of evidence, and also that is what is implied in your post?