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cpt2falcon
Apr 24th 2007, 09:00 AM
So the world was perfect. Then Adam and Eve sinned by taking the forbidden fruit. A serpent tricked them to do it. Is what I have said here correct? If that is not biblically accurate, then please re-educate me. It has been a long time since Bible school.

If so, how does evil exist in a perfect world? The serpent would be the evil one in this situation.



God gave us a chance to choose, way back in Eden, and we chose wrong
Sorry to pull a quote from another thread, but I felt it was appropriate. First I would like to say that I do not remember choosing anything back then. How could I if I didn't exist yet? How did "we" choose anything? This kinds of leads into the question, why must we pay for the sins of our ancestors?

All this just spawned out of some thoughts I was having. I think about random things a lot, this time I just decided to write out a few thoughts and ask some questions about them.

TEITZY
Apr 24th 2007, 11:45 AM
So the world was perfect. Then Adam and Eve sinned by taking the forbidden fruit. A serpent tricked them to do it. Is what I have said here correct? If that is not biblically accurate, then please re-educate me. It has been a long time since Bible school.

If so, how does evil exist in a perfect world? The serpent would be the evil one in this situation.

Satan was an intruder into God's perfect creation, he was not part of it. Satan's presence in the Garden did not alter the fact that all that God had made in the physical universe was "very good".



Sorry to pull a quote from another thread, but I felt it was appropriate. First I would like to say that I do not remember choosing anything back then. How could I if I didn't exist yet? How did "we" choose anything? This kinds of leads into the question, why must we pay for the sins of our ancestors?


The Bible says that Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind so all are born sinners. However as individuals we are still responsible for our own actions and each willingly chooses to disobey God. So we die because of Adam's sin but also because of our own sin. Being born sinners we are already subject to God's judgment but we add to our own condemnation by intentionally following Adam in his rebellion against God.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Men just don't sin, they love their sin and hate the light or Christ who exposes their evil! So it's really no use blaming Adam because we choose to do the same thing and we love it!

Of course the great news is that God has done something about this problem by sending His Son to take the punishment for our sin. So even if you blame God or Adam for your sin there is no excuse for not accepting the remedy He has provided is there?

Cheers
Leigh

karenoka27
Apr 24th 2007, 12:22 PM
Romans 5:12-" 12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned"

We all came from one man, Adam, since Adam sinned, being born of Adam we are all born sinners.

It's like being English, French or Italian etc. You are born Italian if your parent's and grandparent's and so on were...same as being a sinner.

does that help?

JesusisGod
Apr 24th 2007, 12:58 PM
So the world was perfect. Then Adam and Eve sinned by taking the forbidden fruit. A serpent tricked them to do it. Is what I have said here correct? If that is not biblically accurate, then please re-educate me. It has been a long time since Bible school.
Hi cpt2falcon.
Only Eve was deceived by Satan. Adam took the fruit from Eve knowing full well it would cause his death. Adam and Eve are figures of Christ and the church.

Kahtar
Apr 24th 2007, 01:15 PM
For if, through one man, death ruled because of that man's offense, how much more will those who receive such overflowing grace and the gift of righteousness rule in life because of one man, Jesus Christ!
Consequently, just as one offense resulted in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in justification and life for everyone.
For just as through one man's disobedience many people were made sinners, so also through one man's obedience many people will be made righteous. Romans 5:17-19

diffangle
Apr 24th 2007, 03:28 PM
Sorry to pull a quote from another thread, but I felt it was appropriate. First I would like to say that I do not remember choosing anything back then. How could I if I didn't exist yet? How did "we" choose anything? This kinds of leads into the question, why must we pay for the sins of our ancestors?



"We" choose things everyday. "We" don't have to pay for Adam's and Eve's sin... "we" have a choice to choose Life(Messiah)... He gave us a great Gift.

:pp

rchivers
Apr 24th 2007, 03:43 PM
So the world was perfect. Then Adam and Eve sinned by taking the forbidden fruit. A serpent tricked them to do it. Is what I have said here correct? If that is not biblically accurate, then please re-educate me. It has been a long time since Bible school.

If so, how does evil exist in a perfect world? The serpent would be the evil one in this situation.



Sorry to pull a quote from another thread, but I felt it was appropriate. First I would like to say that I do not remember choosing anything back then. How could I if I didn't exist yet? How did "we" choose anything? This kinds of leads into the question, why must we pay for the sins of our ancestors?

All this just spawned out of some thoughts I was having. I think about random things a lot, this time I just decided to write out a few thoughts and ask some questions about them.

I guess God created the potential for evil just like he created the potential for good. I suppose it all would be a pointless exercise otherwise (no fun).

diffangle
Apr 24th 2007, 04:25 PM
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these [things]. -Isaiah 45:7

Evil has to be part of the whole picture because without it there would be no such thing as freewill. We'd all be a bunch of robots.

Jemma Ash
Apr 24th 2007, 04:40 PM
Only Eve was deceived by Satan. Adam took the fruit from Eve knowing full well it would cause his death. Adam and Eve are figures of Christ and the church.

So Eve chose to take the fruit and Adam chose to believe Eve...all about Choices...

Jemma Ash
Apr 24th 2007, 04:42 PM
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these [things]. -Isaiah 45:7

Evil has to be part of the whole picture because without it there would be no such thing as freewill. We'd all be a bunch of robots.

Actually evil was not part of the picture in the beginning and that was a perfect world and Eve and Adam had the "freewill" to disobey God or not...

rchivers
Apr 24th 2007, 04:48 PM
Actually evil was not part of the picture in the beginning and that was a perfect world and Eve and Adam had the "freewill" to disobey God or not...

How could evil not exist if there was a whole tree designed to allow you to see the difference between it and good if you ate of it?

JesusisGod
Apr 24th 2007, 06:03 PM
So Eve chose to take the fruit and Adam chose to believe Eve...all about Choices...
Eve believed Satan. Adam did not (1 Timothy 2:14). Adam and Eve are figures of Christ and the redeemed (Cp. Ge.2:23-24, Eph.5:30-32). Unlike Eve, Adam fully understood that he would die by taking the fruit from his wife. It's a metaphor of the gospel. Pretty much what Jesus did when He received our sins. We are Eve.

Jemma Ash
Apr 24th 2007, 06:14 PM
How could evil not exist if there was a whole tree designed to allow you to see the difference between it and good if you ate of it?
Sorry I was wrong there...I apologise.
Evil was there but it is not there to have the fight between good and evil...its there so that we can have the choice to follow the Lord, as much as he wants us to follow him, he wants us to choose of our own "free will".

Jemma Ash
Apr 26th 2007, 06:48 AM
Adam and Eve disobeyed God. They sinned willfully.
"For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God," (could someone pls add the verse i've forgotten it:( )

"So I am a sinner because i was born of adam?"
Yes...but are you also saying that you have never sinned?

As i just said, we have all sinned, but Jesus came down to earth as a baby to die on the cross for our sins. He came to take away our sins. But he didn't just die there, Jesus rose again! And he is alive. If you repent of your sins and believe in Jesus died and rose again, you will be forgiven and recieve your place in Heaven.

Faithwalker
Apr 26th 2007, 12:21 PM
If so, how does evil exist in a perfect world?


Adam and Eve BOTH CHOSE not to believe God. Evil (unbelief) is in the hearts of men.



It has been a long time since Bible school.



Then in YOUR heart you already know the answer right cpt2falcon?
Why then have YOU chosen not to believe God? I went to Bible School too, so I am confident, by knowing how much you would have learned there, you dont need re-educated, you need to be re-born.


Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

"Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as they did when they provoked me during the time of testing in the wilderness. There your ancestors tested me, even though they had seen my works for forty years. That is why I was indignant with that generation and said, 'They are always going astray in their hearts, and they have not known my ways.' So in my anger I swore a solemn oath that they would never enter my rest."

See to it, my brothers, that no evil, unbelieving heart is found in any of you, as shown by your turning away from the living God. Hebrews 3:7

Johndigger
Apr 26th 2007, 12:56 PM
If so, how does evil exist in a perfect world?


Because perfection involves free will. And for free will you need the potential of evil.

That's the simple answer.

JD

God's Advocate
Apr 29th 2007, 03:29 PM
So the world was perfect. Then Adam and Eve sinned by taking the forbidden fruit. A serpent tricked them to do it. Is what I have said here correct? If that is not biblically accurate, then please re-educate me. It has been a long time since Bible school.

If so, how does evil exist in a perfect world? The serpent would be the evil one in this situation.



Sorry to pull a quote from another thread, but I felt it was appropriate. First I would like to say that I do not remember choosing anything back then. How could I if I didn't exist yet? How did "we" choose anything? This kinds of leads into the question, why must we pay for the sins of our ancestors?

All this just spawned out of some thoughts I was having. I think about random things a lot, this time I just decided to write out a few thoughts and ask some questions about them.
A little off topic, but I would like to clarify: When I said "we" I meant "we" as a race. Humans chose wrong, the knowingly disobeyed God in His presence. In the sacred Garden He had made for us! He said "You may eat of any tree in the Garden, except the Tree of Knowledge." and we couldn't obey even that simple command. Hope I cleared things up.

Righton
May 6th 2007, 08:56 PM
"First I would like to say that I do not remember choosing anything back then. How could I if I didn't exist yet? How did "we" choose anything? This kinds of leads into the question, why must we pay for the sins of our ancestors?"

Have you ever sinned, Falcon?

You have your answer.

And I sincerely doubt your answer is "no". The next time Jesus returns, it won't be to chat on a message board. ;)

cpt2falcon
May 7th 2007, 10:01 AM
Satan was an intruder into God's perfect creation, he was not part of it. Satan's presence in the Garden did not alter the fact that all that God had made in the physical universe was "very good".
I still don't understand why God would let something so evil into his creation.


The Bible says that Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind so all are born sinners. However as individuals we are still responsible for our own actions and each willingly chooses to disobey God. So we die because of Adam's sin but also because of our own sin. Being born sinners we are already subject to God's judgment but we add to our own condemnation by intentionally following Adam in his rebellion against God.

I don't understand how we are born sinners. Why is it that one mans sins count as our own?


It's like being English, French or Italian etc. You are born Italian if your parent's and grandparent's and so on were...same as being a sinner.

does that help?That doesn't make any sense. That is like saying because my father murdered a man, I am a murderer.


For just as through one man's disobedience many people were made sinners, so also through one man's obedience many people will be made righteous. Romans 5:17-19But not all. Everyone is automatically a sinner, but not everyone will be saved. The two do not cancel each other out.


I guess God created the potential for evil just like he created the potential for good. I suppose it all would be a pointless exercise otherwise (no fun).Are you saying that good is not fun but evil is?


Then in YOUR heart you already know the answer right cpt2falcon?
Why then have YOU chosen not to believe God? I went to Bible School too, so I am confident, by knowing how much you would have learned there, you dont need re-educated, you need to be re-born.

I don't believe whatever I am taught. I have been taught many things that are not true in my life, I am not about to blindly follow anything.


Because perfection involves free will. And for free will you need the potential of evil.

That's the simple answer.

JD
So there is only one correct choice in every situation? All other choices are evil?


A little off topic, but I would like to clarify: When I said "we" I meant "we" as a race. Humans chose wrong, the knowingly disobeyed God in His presence. In the sacred Garden He had made for us! He said "You may eat of any tree in the Garden, except the Tree of Knowledge." and we couldn't obey even that simple command. Hope I cleared things up.That still makes no sense. We are still punished for something that we did not do.


Have you ever sinned, Falcon?

You have your answer.

And I sincerely doubt your answer is "no". The next time Jesus returns, it won't be to chat on a message board. ;)
Of course I have sinned, but when I was born I was not told directly by God what and what not to do. Adam and Eve were, they were given a fair chance, we were not.

TEITZY
May 7th 2007, 11:37 AM
I still don't understand why God would let something so evil into his creation.


God had a plan to use evil to bring greater glory to Himself. In a nutshell, the presence of evil and sin in God's creation gave God the opportunity to SHOW men and angels His redemptive attributes such as mercy, forgiveness, longsuffering, grace etc. It also gave Him the opportunity to display His wrath and judgment as well. Without sin, God's mercy & wrath would forever remain a mystery. God being holy and without sin could not create evil so instead He created beings with the ability to choose good or evil who were not morally incorruptible (that is they had the capacity to disobey).

Now there are many philosophical issues here and we could debate forever why God did things the way He did, but at the end of the day I trust that God knows what He is doing since He is all knowing and as one of His redeemed children I can think of no greater ends than the Glory of God - that God be made known in all His fullness.



I don't understand how we are born sinners. Why is it that one mans sins count as our own?


Well it's like a genetic defect that is passed onto every generation. Just as one man's sin is imputed to all, so one man's righteousness is imputed to all who believe:

Rom 5:18-19 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

We are all sinners because we are related to Adam, the first sinner. That's just a simple reality stated in the Scriptures. So our disposition is to sin but man is also responsible since he willingly chooses to follow or obey his sin nature despite a God-given conscience that convicts him. Innately we know what is right and wrong but we still choose to do the wrong despite the consequences. On the flip side, just as the sin of one man can be imputed to all, so the righteoussness of one man (Jesus Christ) can also be imputed to all (that is all who place their faith in Him).

So as I said earlier, regardless of what you think about the unfairness of the problem of our sin, the fact is that God has provided a solution to the sin problem, but sinners willingly reject the free gift of salvation from sin through faith in Christ alone thus bringing greater condemnation on themselves.

Cheers
Leigh

Righton
May 8th 2007, 01:26 PM
Of course I have sinned, but when I was born I was not told directly by God what and what not to do. Adam and Eve were, they were given a fair chance, we were not.

Your question had nothing to do with birth. You complained about what we inherited from Adam and Eve and how unfair it was, because, after all, they sinned. Your conclusion intimates that WE have not sinned.

All I was saying is, if you have sinned, then you are one with Adam and Eve in deserving punishment. You know the difference between wrong and right, which is why you know you have sinned. They heard the command from God directly. You have heard it from their descendants, your ancestors.

The only one who could rightly complain about this is one who has never sinned.

cpt2falcon
May 10th 2007, 06:00 AM
God had a plan to use evil to bring greater glory to Himself. In a nutshell, the presence of evil and sin in God's creation gave God the opportunity to SHOW men and angels His redemptive attributes such as mercy, forgiveness, longsuffering, grace etc. It also gave Him the opportunity to display His wrath and judgment as well. Without sin, God's mercy & wrath would forever remain a mystery. God being holy and without sin could not create evil so instead He created beings with the ability to choose good or evil who were not morally incorruptible (that is they had the capacity to disobey).
So God wanted them to sin? I don't understand how you say that God cannot create evil.




Well it's like a genetic defect that is passed onto every generation. Just as one man's sin is imputed to all, so one man's righteousness is imputed to all who believe
That still doesn't seem right to me. There is no reason for us to be held responsible for something we had absolutely no say in.


Your question had nothing to do with birth. You complained about what we inherited from Adam and Eve and how unfair it was, because, after all, they sinned. Your conclusion intimates that WE have not sinned.

All I was saying is, if you have sinned, then you are one with Adam and Eve in deserving punishment. You know the difference between wrong and right, which is why you know you have sinned. They heard the command from God directly. You have heard it from their descendants, your ancestors.

The only one who could rightly complain about this is one who has never sinned.
Just because I have not sinned does not mean that I do not have the right to complain. Also, we were not given a fair chance. Adam and Eve knew what was right and wrong from the very start. I still cannot be sure what is right and what is wrong. I am only learning things from humans, they were addressed directly by God.

TEITZY
May 10th 2007, 10:35 AM
So God wanted them to sin? I don't understand how you say that God cannot create evil.

No, God did not want them to sin but He knew they would. God is not the author of sin since He created Adam and Eve morally perfect. It was their free will that led to disobedience that resulted in sin and so it was the creations and not the Creator that brought sin into the world.




That still doesn't seem right to me. There is no reason for us to be held responsible for something we had absolutely no say in.


Well God says otherwise and who am I to argue! The principle of corporate punishment (or blessing) is common in the Bible as it was in many ancient societies and even some modern ones. The sin of Adam was transferred to all mankind because he was the head or representative of all mankind. Conversely, the righteousness of Christ, who is the Head of the Church is transferred to all believers (the body) by which they can be declared righteous in the sight of a perfectly holy God. So while I understand why you might see corporate punishment as unfair or not "right", unlike God, you and I do not possess full knowledge of all things and therefore when it comes to defining what is "right", God's authority is supreme. By the way, what is the 'moral' foundation by which you define what is right or wrong? What makes your perception of moral realities anymore authoritative than anyone elses?

Even if you were born morally perfect and without a sin nature, do you think you would remain sinless? Honestly, what do you love more - God and His righteous commands or the pleasures of sin? Deep down you know what you would choose don't you.

Cheers
Leigh

cpt2falcon
May 10th 2007, 11:09 AM
By the way, what is the 'moral' foundation by which you define what is right or wrong?
Not exactly an easy question to answer. I suppose I base my moral judgments on what is best for all of mankind. What is best for everyone as apposed to an individual.


What makes your perception of moral realities anymore authoritative than anyone elses?
Nothing, I am no better than any other man. I imagine that you would say God says your perception of moral realities is better than mine, which would make plenty of sense coming from your point of view, but that doesn't work for me.



Even if you were born morally perfect and without a sin nature, do you think you would remain sinless? Honestly, what do you love more - God and His righteous commands or the pleasures of sin? Deep down you know what you would choose don't you.
If I were born with a clean slate and knowledge of what God does and doesn't want given to me directly from him, then I sure think I would sin a whole lot less. Would I be perfect? That is impossible to answer. Sin is not always fun. If I knew what Gods righteous commands were then I would follow them as closely as possible and would try my hardest not to sin.

Kahtar
May 10th 2007, 12:48 PM
If I knew what Gods righteous commands were then I would follow them as closely as possible and would try my hardest not to sin.If you are truly being honest here, then pick up your Bible and read it. Start with the New Testament. God's righteous commands are written there. And when you have read them, then go do them.

cpt2falcon
May 10th 2007, 12:52 PM
If you are truly being honest here, then pick up your Bible and read it. Start with the New Testament. God's righteous commands are written there. And when you have read them, then go do them.
That's the same thing I here from those in other religions. How am I supposed to choose the right holy book to read? I am not certain that any of them are correct. I don't have that sort of faith in any of them.

Kahtar
May 10th 2007, 01:34 PM
That's the same thing I here from those in other religions. How am I supposed to choose the right holy book to read? I am not certain that any of them are correct. I don't have that sort of faith in any of them.Ask God to reveal Himself to you, from your heart. Be real about it. If you are truly seeking Him and truth, He'll show you. Don't expect a thundering voice out of heaven, though. He shows you in many ways. Look and you will see.

My Joy
May 10th 2007, 09:54 PM
That still doesn't seem right to me. There is no reason for us to be held responsible for something we had absolutely no say in.

I don't know that there is one agreed on interpretation of the original sin between all the churches, temples, and synagogues. Here is my understanding.

From a human's limited perspective much doesn't seem "right" or fair. We have "no say" in if we get sick, suffer, or die. We don't choose but are given the responsibility. We don't rejoice in the challenge because we don't have the perspective to see where it's leading us.

From Adam and Eve's first sin we have inherited the knowledge of good and evil. A bad tree bears bad fruit. All humans are subject to the effect of the "original sin". I don't see it as "right" or fair, it is reality for me because I now have knowledge of the ability to choose if I want to do good or evil.

Kahtar has given you wise advice. I have been amazed at how the word of God in the Bible "speaks" to me a truth that is undeniable and guides me despite challenges I may think are unfair how to choose good.

TEITZY
May 11th 2007, 03:26 AM
Not exactly an easy question to answer. I suppose I base my moral judgments on what is best for all of mankind. What is best for everyone as apposed to an individual.

Well you know that is precisely the reasoning behind corporate punishment. That is, it is for the good of the community. In the Bible, sin is often compared to yeast because just a small quantity of it effects the whole loaf. That's why God dealt harshly with sin in the OT to try and keep Israel pure and separate from the ungodly nations around them. This yeast principle is displayed in the sin of Adam which has effected all mankind. But again we are not 'innocent' of transgression since we also choose to sin like Adam did.



Nothing, I am no better than any other man. I imagine that you would say God says your perception of moral realities is better than mine, which would make plenty of sense coming from your point of view, but that doesn't work for me.


The basis of moral absolutes is what God says in His Word and I certainly don't claim (in and of myself) to be any better than you in any respect. As you have stated, your own opinion on moral standards carries no more authority than that of others and so therefore morality is relative and not absolute. You also stated above that your moral judgments are based on "what is best for all mankind", but how do we establish what exactly is "best" for mankind? What seems best now may in fact turn out for the worst and history is full of such examples. Of course this does not mean that atheists or non-believers cannot be moral, it just simply means they have no authoritative basis or objective standard upon which to base such moral convictions.

The reason I use the Bible as my authority on morality is because it is written by One who is infallible and has perfect knowledge of all things (past, present & future). Man on the other hand is fallible and is prone to be wrong (in God's eyes) though all may seem right in his own eyes.


If I were born with a clean slate and knowledge of what God does and doesn't want given to me directly from him, then I sure think I would sin a whole lot less. Would I be perfect? That is impossible to answer. Sin is not always fun. If I knew what Gods righteous commands were then I would follow them as closely as possible and would try my hardest not to sin.

That's admirable, but God's standard of righteousness is sinless perfection and it only takes one sin for us to come under God's judgment as Adam and Eve did. Remember Adam & Eve were not only perfect but also in a perfect environment untainted by sin and yet they still fell and their first son (Cain) committed the first murder (his brother no less). If you want to be completely free then there will always be the chance of you sinning unless God stops you, in which case you are no longer completely free are you.

Cheers
Leigh

DaveS
May 11th 2007, 05:41 AM
If I were born with a clean slate and knowledge of what God does and doesn't want given to me directly from him, then I sure think I would sin a whole lot less. Would I be perfect? That is impossible to answer. Sin is not always fun. If I knew what Gods righteous commands were then I would follow them as closely as possible and would try my hardest not to sin.Hi falcon. If I understand this statement (and being a human being myself, I think I do), when you say that you "would sin a whole lot less" you're saying that you would take God's commands, one at a time as the situation relates, and decide for yourself whether they were the best choice for you under the given circumstance. Of course, because He is God, you would defer to His judgment for the most part. But on occasion you would reach the conclusion that your own assessment surpasses His in wisdom and in ultimate correctness, and on those rare occasions, would act contrary to His will.

So I have to ask, what did Adam do differently than what you have already confessed to yourself? And if it's wrong that you should be blamed for Adam's condemnation, how is it right to blame him for yours?

If you were the first man, by your own admission, you would have done the same thing he did. If you had direct revelation from God as he did, you would eventually have disobeyed Him once. And the same holds true for every person since him.

So in what way is it unfair or incorrect to view Adam as the representative of the entire human race? Or to see the entire human race (including yourself personally) as being represented in Adam?