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talmidim
Apr 29th 2007, 08:20 PM
The following is a post I submitted on another board, in another thread about the writings of the early church and the traditions of the church fathers. Considering that most of the posters thought the traditions as holy and inspires as the Word, this may very well have been another planet too. ;)

Anyway, these are some things I would like to submit for your kind consideration before it is shredded by the closed minded masses.


***********************


I think the real reason I was drawn to this thread in the first place, was my interest in the changes in the church during its first 70 to 100 years - not the post 300 years you specified. So I guess anything I offer here might be slightly off-topic. Still it seems likely that the events of this period form a foundation for the later actions of the early church fathers, so here goes.



There is historical and scriptural evidence that the early Christians were indeed a sect and subset of Judaism. But persecutions by both the Jewish establishment and the Roman authorities slowly drove a wedge between them. The Bar Kokhba's revolt was a pivotal moment in history when Rabbi Akivah demanded the Christian Jews renounce their allegiance to Yeshua (Jesus) and support Simon Bar Kokhba as Messiah. The Christian Jews removed to Jordan and suffered few persecutions. The same could not be said for the remaining Jews.



But in the course of the next two centuries the number of believing Jews in the church had dropped radically in comparison to the swelling numbers of Gentile believers. And there was of course, a corresponding change in the leadership of the church.



Now I am not insinuating anything sinister here, only that a person's background greatly influence their perceptions. Context is everything. Case in point would be the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The Bishop of Ephesus is quoted in a letter as saying the Apostle John had, "put off the Mitre". He made another reference to the breastplate later in the same letter and seemed to imply that John was somehow associated with the High Priesthood. This would seem to confirm the account of how John was allowed into the High Priests mansion during the examination of Jesus and later gained admission for Peter into the courtyard. I am fairly sure attendance to an event of this nature (extraordinary as it was), would have been restricted to the Aaronic and Levitical priesthoods, household servants and Temple guards. If this line of inquiry is valid, and John was indeed raised in a family where he was trained from childhood for the High Priesthood, then it would explain his entry into this event. So too would it offer a whole new perspective to the writings of St. John.



Recently, I was privileged to hear a presentation showing all of the elements of the Feast of Yom Kippur Temple service, that is both the morning and evening services, represented in the book of the Revelation. To someone steeped in the culture of first century Temple worship, most of the references would be apparent. And even more so to someone attached to the Temple Priesthood. The case was fairly well made and I was excited to examine some of the symbolism and scriptural references for myself.



It is widely accepted that John was a political prisoner on the Isle of Patmos at the time of the writing of the book of the Revelation. Much as English-speaking WWII prisoners communicated in "pig-latin" during their incarcerations in enemy camps, I'm fairly sure that John would have been "wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove" in the transcription of his vision. If this is a case where the book of the Revelation is both allegorical and topical, couched in the terms of Temple service and context unfamiliar to his captors, then there is much to be revealed about the vision based on this context.



Likewise, the same could be said about much of the epistles that laid the foundation for the early traditions of the church. Perhaps there is much that is missed in reading the letters of the early church fathers. Perhaps there were more than subtle changes that eluded the most diligent of the saints, simply because they were not equipped to recognize them. Perhaps, these tradition are established because of cultural barriers and not because of our forefathers diligence or lack thereof...



Just a thought.

talmidim
Apr 30th 2007, 09:08 PM
No takers, Huh?

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 30th 2007, 10:28 PM
I saw Literaryjoe peeking in earlier. I was hoping he's have something to say.
I myself am too involved with somethign esle right now to try and hack this one appart. :P

teshuva
Apr 30th 2007, 11:11 PM
Hi talmidim!

Alot to think about here.

I believe what you say is interesting, and would take some research. Who was the Bishop of Ephesus? What letter was this that was quoted? John's easy entry is a subject I've never looked into.
But, I agree, much understanding has been lost.

I also would like to add that I believe what had been concealed is now being revealed. It would have been so hard for John to describe some of the things he was seeing, during the account of the tribulation. There was no reference for him. The technology of our times would be very hard to impart to others from a vision received by God. But his Revelation was that Jesus Christ IS ALMIGHTY GOD, that much is for certain.

It's God who opens our eyes, and I believe the 'set time' has come for things to be revealed. In our times, with our technology, some of the things John told us can be better understood. Like the whole world seeing the 2 witnesses - it makes much better sense in a time of mass communication like television, radio, satellite transmissions, etc, etc.

I agree with the Bar-Kochba revolution throwing a 'monkey wrench' into recorded history. I've even read that dates were changed in order to make Bar-Kochba a viable Messiah. It was known that He had to be born in the 4th century (which was when Jesus was born).

Constantine, I think, had alot to do with our 'Jewish roots' being severed. Not to mention Antiochus Epiphanes, during the time of the revolution of the Maccabees. So much history, and therefore, understanding had been outlawed by pain of death, during that time. No one was to read the Hebrew Scriptures, there would be no circumcision, no worship on Sabbath, no one could keep the Feasts of the LORD, etc. These were all punishable by death, and many succumbed to the pressure.

So many Jews fell away because of the warning from God in Deut. 13:1-4:

"If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, (2) And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke to you, saying, Let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them, (3) You shall not hearken to the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proves you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. (4) You shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep HIS commandments, and OBEY his voice, and you shall serve him, and cleave to him."

Christianity began to say that Jesus always broke the Torah, He broke the Sabbath and all the laws. This was the warning they were given in the Torah - if a miracle worker led them away from God's ways they were not to listen to Him.
But, in fact, the opposite was true. Jesus kept every jot and tittle of the Torah. He was no rebel. In this way, the church became even more disconnected from our Hebrew roots and it became harder to understand any of the writings of Scripture. I've also heard it said, that this is what it means to be in the Diaspora. History is harder to understand, but God promised to reveal His plan to us at the 'set time'. We are commanded to search the Scriptures, watch and wait.

As alway, talmidim, a very interesting subject!!

Studyin'2Show
Apr 30th 2007, 11:12 PM
I agree that much has been misunderstood be of the obvious distancing of the post 70 AD church from the Hebrew roots of our faith. Your insights of John's possible priestly lineage is quite intriguing. Do you have anything to share about how this book can be better interpreted understanding Temple references? :hmm:

Studyin'2Show
Apr 30th 2007, 11:23 PM
So many Jews fell away because of the warning from God in Deut. 13:1-4:

"If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, (2) And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke to you, saying, Let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them, (3) You shall not hearken to the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proves you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. (4) You shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep HIS commandments, and OBEY his voice, and you shall serve him, and cleave to him."

Christianity began to say that Jesus always broke the Torah, He broke the Sabbath and all the laws. This was the warning they were given in the Torah - if a miracle worker led them away from God's ways they were not to listen to Him.
But, in fact, the opposite was true. Jesus kept every jot and tittle of the Torah. He was no rebel. In this way, the church became even more disconnected from our Hebrew roots and it became harder to understand any of the writings of Scripture. I've also heard it said, that this is what it means to be in the Diaspora. History is harder to understand, but God promised to reveal His plan to us at the 'set time'. We are commanded to search the Scriptures, watch and wait.That is quite excellent insight, teshuva. I have a Bible that actually has in one of its headings "Jesus Breaks the Sabbath". :rolleyes: I can't remember which one it was; I don't use it anymore. :D

BHS
Apr 30th 2007, 11:31 PM
So many Jews fell away because of the warning from God in Deut. 13:1-4:

"If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, (2) And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke to you, saying, Let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them, (3) You shall not hearken to the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proves you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. (4) You shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep HIS commandments, and OBEY his voice, and you shall serve him, and cleave to him."

Christianity began to say that Jesus always broke the Torah, He broke the Sabbath and all the laws. This was the warning they were given in the Torah - if a miracle worker led them away from God's ways they were not to listen to Him.
But, in fact, the opposite was true. Jesus kept every jot and tittle of the Torah. He was no rebel. In this way, the church became even more disconnected from our Hebrew roots and it became harder to understand any of the writings of Scripture.!

And how sad to think that we as Christian believers have contributed to the blindness of the Jews with our own misled doctrines.

BHS

teshuva
Apr 30th 2007, 11:59 PM
Hi BHS,

I know, we've really made some big mistakes, haven't we? But, blindness IN PART, has come on all of us, I guess. That's why, like Adam and Eve and Gods institution of the marriage covenant, we have to become 1 body.
They don't have all the answers, but neither do we. When we become what God intended all our eyes will be opened!! And what a day that will be!

teshuva
May 1st 2007, 12:04 AM
Hi Studyin'2Show!

I thank God for all the great teachers out there everyday. You know it's not my own insight. I just read and 'report' to the brethren like you guys share so freely from your own studies.
I'm blessed by everyone here!!! You guys are an oasis in the desert, and I love sharing and reading what everyone writes!!

Jesusinmyheart
May 1st 2007, 12:25 AM
I truly believe we are in the last days cause now God is pouring out His spirit.

Act 2:17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

*my daughter allready did that in a way, telling me at the age of 4 while drawing a picture that God was returning like lightning, and she was not taught on this by anyone. :eek:
Act 2:18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
Act 2:19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
Act 2:20 the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'

talmidim
May 1st 2007, 01:01 AM
Greeting is His name everyone,

Thank you for your warm reception, your insights and your inquiries. I am still struggling with this illness so I will take a shotgun approach in answering your posts. Please forgive me for not being more personal in this. The heart is willing, but the flesh is truly weak...

This is an excerpt from Polycrates, Bishop of Ephesus. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.x.xi.html?highlight=polycrates,john,mitre#hi ghlight) found on the CCEL website.

From His Epistle to Victor and the Roman Church Concerning the Day of Keeping the Passover.3772 (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:toggle%28%27fnf_x.xi-p9.2%27%29;)3772 In Eusebius, Hist. Eccl ., v. 24.
As for us, then, we scrupulously observe the exact day,3773 (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:toggle%28%27fnf_x.xi-p11.2%27%29;)3773 ᾽Αῤῥαδιούργητον ἄγομεν τὴν ἡμέραν . neither adding nor taking away. For in Asia great luminaries3774 (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:toggle%28%27fnf_x.xi-p12.2%27%29;)3774 Στοιχεῖα . have gone to their rest, who shall rise again in the day of the coming of the Lord, when He cometh with glory from heaven and shall raise again all the saints. I speak of Philip, one of the twelve apostles,3775 (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:toggle%28%27fnf_x.xi-p13.2%27%29;)3775 [See vol. vii. p. 500, n. 6. Great confusions adhere to this name.] who is laid to rest at Hierapolis; and his two daughters, who arrived at old age unmarried;3776 (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:toggle%28%27fnf_x.xi-p14.1%27%29;)3776 Δύο θυγατέρες αὐτοῦ γεγηρακυῖαι παρθένοι . his other daughter also, who passed her life3777 (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:toggle%28%27fnf_x.xi-p15.2%27%29;)3777 Πολιτευσαμένη . [ Phil. iii. 20 (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/bible/asv.Phil.3.html#Phil.3.20), Greek .] under the influence of the Holy Spirit, and reposes at Ephesus; John, moreover, who reclined on the Lord’s bosom, and who became a priest wearing the mitre,3778 (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:toggle%28%27fnf_x.xi-p16.3%27%29;)3778 Πέταλον . [Probably the ornament of the high priest; Exod. xxviii. 35, 36 (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/bible/asv.Exod.28.html#Exod.28.35).] and a witness and a teacher—he rests at Ephesus.I have read more compelling translations, but this will suffice. This man was a disciple of John. In this letter there is a reference to the Mitre. Another letter he described John as putting off the breastplate as if abdicating his place in line. Both are possible references to the accoutrement's of the High Priesthood.

There is some very tenuous supposition linking John to the house of the Zadokim, though through no credible documentation. Here are some things to consider should this prove to be a valid line of inquiry.

The Zadokim (the rightful heirs of the High Priesthood) were still custodians of David's tomb at the time of our Messiah. The relatively autonomous existence of these Aaronic priests and the existence of a large upper room in the structure, these items lend themselves to certain scriptural possibilities. These include the possible abdication of the seat of honor and authority at the teaching seder to Yeshua, the possible location of the refuge where the 120 talmidim hid themselves and the location of the pouring out of the Spirit of Promise.

At any rate, there is a very certain order to the morning and evening Temple services, especially on Yom Kippur. The High Priest was required to oversee all of these duties for a week prior to the Yom Kippur service. The cleaning and lighting of the Menorah, the opening of the Temple to morning worship, the daily sacrifice - everything.

What is compelling about the arguments I heard is this: Almost every word spoken by the Master to the churches can be tied to scripture or historical record concerning the ministry of the Temple priests or the coming of the Messiah.

The actions all were ordered to match the preparation and opening of the Temple. The theme followed that of the traditions of Yom Kippur as a day of Atonement and Judgment. In short, everything is a fit.

I am currently going through nine teachings on the subject and the sheer volume of the information is overwhelming. When I get a handle on this, I'll try to post more.

I am extracting this from DVDs and everything must be transcribed and referenced by hand. This is going to take a while. In the mean time, have any of you heard of this correlation between the Revelation and the Temple services being presented before? It is a very exciting and compelling picture.



(http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.html)

Kahtar
May 1st 2007, 02:25 PM
This is the first I've heard any of this, but it sure sounds intriguing. Once again, I find myself sitting at meat at your table, Talmidim. Bring me more food!:lol:

teshuva
May 2nd 2007, 11:45 AM
I haven't heard of this either, so would like to hear more.

I did, a few years ago, read a comparison of the Gospel of John and the Book of Revelation. J.R. Church showed that both followed the same form in each chapter, topic for topic, and subject for subject. It was very interesting, as I know yours will be!

talmidim
May 2nd 2007, 02:11 PM
Hello Dear Friends,

I went to the doctor yesterday and I am told it will be a few more days that I'll be sidelined from work. In the mean time I am rereading, "The Temple—Its Ministry and Services" by Alfred Edersheim.

Much like Dr. Bullinger, Alfred Edersheim yields a great deal of useful information. And much like all of us, both fall short of understanding the full revelation of John. And I am certain Dr. Church is rethinking his analysis of John's writings if he has seen this material. Reading his gospel from this perspective is a revelation too. Imagine John's background. Knowing the Temple sacrificial system was merely a covering until a worthy sacrifice could be made certainly would have overwhelmed me with Yeshua's all encompassing love.

Still I think that the most current information may be the key: That the Book of Revelation is written from the perspective of one trained to the High Priesthood on earth, witnessing a series of services in Heaven, specifically the Fall Feasts. Zichron Teruah ("a memorial proclaimed with the blast of horns" Leviticus 23) or Yom Teruah ("the Day of Trumpets") otherwise know as Rosh Hashannah in modern Judaism. This is followed by Yom Kippur ("the Day of Atonement" or "Day of Judgment") and Sukkot ("the Feast of Tabernacles"). All have strong prophetic implications concerning the return and final ministry of the Lord.

The most compelling illustrations that I have seen from this teaching is the threefold transition from earthly prophet to Heavenly High Priest in the first part of the vision, the implied confirmation of the Spirit filled saints being present in Heaven for the Temple Service, and the ultimate return to earth of the Master in His role as King of Kings. the symbolism is such an astounding fit. Astonishing to the point of forehead slapping! Like, why haven't I seen that before?

Seemingly, there is also confirmation of more than one "Rapture". The first, a pretribulation rapture for the saints that will serve as the priests on the morning service and the worshipers that are admitted when the Temple gates are opened. The second is a midtribulation rapture for the second course of priests for the evening service (that seem to include the two witnesses and the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel). All the others represented in heaven are those that actually go through the tribulation and/or are martyred for the faith or have in some way to overcome the false prophet, the beast and the antichrist.

Obviously, this will take some time to digest, much less transcribe. In the meantime, try reading Edershiem, but with an eye toward the Temple services of the fall Feasts. Here:"The Temple—Its Ministry and Services" by Alfred Edersheim (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edersheim/temple.pdf) is a link to it on-line.

Be Blessed

Kahtar
May 2nd 2007, 04:04 PM
In my spirit there is the sense of a long-awaited event just about to take place. There is a stirring there, and I anxiously look forward to this.

By the way, if what you indicated is true, about there being a pre, mid, and post 'rapture', then my friend, that would mean that in all there are seven, yes seven, mentioned in the Word.
Enoch
Elijah
Christ and those others who came up from the graves at His resurrection
pretrib rapture
midtrib rapture
posttrib rapture
and last, the resurrection of the wicked to the Great White Throne.

talmidim
May 2nd 2007, 05:30 PM
In my spirit there is the sense of a long-awaited event just about to take place. There is a stirring there, and I anxiously look forward to this.

By the way, if what you indicated is true, about there being a pre, mid, and post 'rapture', then my friend, that would mean that in all there are seven, yes seven, mentioned in the Word.
Enoch
Elijah
Christ and those others who came up from the graves at His resurrection
pretrib rapture
midtrib rapture
posttrib rapture
and last, the resurrection of the wicked to the Great White Throne.Well my friend, I didn't mean to imply a posttrib rapture. At least I don't see that in the material I am reviewing. Only an arrival of the saints that had died DURING the tribulation. However, there is the resurrection spoken of by Ezekiel and then again at the end of the age, so your count is still on.

BTW, I think that the last resurrection might not ALL be wicked. It is typified as such because of the fallen that figure predominantly in those passages, but I don't know that it means that ALL will be wicked. There will still be those that are birthed, live and die during His reign. And in the end, when the wicked one is loosed, they too will be tested. That is my take anyway...

Be Blessed

Kahtar
May 2nd 2007, 05:37 PM
Well my friend, I didn't mean to imply a posttrib rapture. At least I don't see that in the material I am reviewing. Only an arrival of the saints that had died DURING the tribulation. However, there is the resurrection spoken of by Ezekiel and then again at the end of the age, so your count is still on. Oops! Sorry. You are correct. I'm guilty of reading what isn't there.


BTW, I think that the last resurrection might not ALL be wicked. It is typified as such because of the fallen that figure predominantly in those passages, but I don't know that it means that ALL will be wicked. There will still be those that are birthed, live and die during His reign. And in the end, when the wicked one is loosed, they too will be tested. That is my take anyway...Yes, that makes sense. Thank you for the corrections.:)

talmidim
May 16th 2007, 11:58 AM
OK friends, here goes. I would ask that those that disagree with the scenario I offer here to hold their peace. I do NOT want this to turn into a referendum on a particular doctrine or theology. Hopefully, we are simply looking for relationships to the Temple service based on symbolic and idiomatic reference and what those relationships might reveal. So please restrict your comments to those relationships. - Thanks you.

NOTE: All quotes are from Alfred Edershiem's "The Temple" unless otherwise noted. All scripture quotes are from the KJV.

It is my purpose to show the book of the Revelation as viewed from the perspective of the Yom Kippur Temple service. The two divisions of forty-two months that make up the seven year period are representative of the morning and evening service in the Temple. I find it interesting that the first three and one half years that encompass the time of the "peace treaty" relate to the daylight hours and the second half that is filled with the judgment relate to the nighttime.

I wrote a couple of earlier posts about the Apostle John that might be considered groundwork for these posts. To some this might be considered controversial, but I hope rather, that it qualifies as interesting and encouraging.

The main points I wish to emphasize from these earlier posts are the letter of Polycrates, the Bishop of Ephesus, relating John’s strict observance of the Passover and Sabbaths and his relationship to the priesthood, more specifically the Zadokim, the rightful heirs of the High Priesthood. Given that relationship (if it is indeed a given) the rich symbolism of the Temple service in heaven is more readily understood by the first-century Messianic Jew. This priestly background would have made him uniquely qualified to observe the Temple service in heaven and relate what he saw in terms that the Priests, Levites and indeed all the first-century observant Jews would understand. But there are subtleties that would have only be understood by the High Priesthood, so it makes me wonder if portions of this revelation were specifically addressed to them, holding up Yeshua as the High Priest in heaven.

It is worthy of note that the High Priest has two sets of garments that he wears on Yom Kippur. There are the garments of beauty that is normally worn by the High Priest. They include the ephod, the tunic, the mitre and breastplate described in Leviticus. But there are also the white linen garments that are worn only once. They are worn when entering behind the Veil of Life, when the blood of the sacrifice is sprinkled before the ark. When Yeshua absence from the sepulchre was discovered, His garments were found neatly folded. So what garments was He wearing after His resurrection? Where did they come from and what did they look like? We can only presume that the angels that attended Him brought them. What is interesting to me is what they looked like.
Joh 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.Well, this scripture begs the question, how did gardeners dress in the days of the Messiah? It seems that gardeners to the wealthy wore simple white linen garments and a white turban to cover them from the sun and reflect heat. These garments are remarkably similar to what the High Priest wore when bearing the blood of the sacrifice into the Holy of Holies. The following scriptures further substantiate this presumption:
Joh 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. No one could touch the High Priest while dressed thus and carrying the blood of the sacrifice lest both the High Priest and the offering be defiled. And this seems to be the main thrust of His admonition to Mary. So how is He described in the early chapters of the Revelation? Before we address this question, we must keep in mind that throughout the vision that John is seeing into the heavenly Temple.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, This is particularly interesting because the Day of the Lord’s Wrath, The great and terrible Day of the Lord, the Day of the Lord’s Judgment is most often simply referred to as the Lord’s Day. It is also most often associated with Yom Kippur in ancient Hebraic texts. I think the trumpet mentioned here is also of interest because the Jubilee is declared on Yom Kippur with a great trumpet blast and the Temple doors are opened for the morning service in the same manner. Either may be applicable though the latter is more likely early on. In any case, the popular assumption that John was in the Spirit on the Sabbath or on the first day of the week (the day that the Christians later chose for their day of worship) is presumptuous and probably in error.
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. Here is an obvious mention of the Menorah, the seven golden candlesticks (lampstand in the Greek). And here is the Master dressed in the linen garments, presumptively of the High Priest, that being His office. His being barefoot is consistent with the priests in the Temple. They were required to go barefoot because the Temple proper was considered holy ground, as I am sure the heavenly Temple is. The notable exception in this description of High Priest dress is the golden girdle. The High Priest wore a white girdle that was sixteen or seventeen feet long. It was wrapped around the body seven times and tied in a knot in the front on each successive pass. But this too is consistent with Yeshua in the office of High Priest because, while white linen that depicts purity is a given with Yeshua, gold depicts divinity and kingship throughout scripture.

There are five basic things that are present in the preparation for every morning Temple service.

The Temple and Altar are cleaned.
The Menorah is cleaned, re-wicked, refilled and re-lit.
The incense is prepared.
The sacrifice is prepared.
The Temple doors are opened to welcome the worshipers with the sounding of the shofar (or Trumpet depending) at the advent of the sunrise.So far, we have seen the High Priest Yeshua, barefoot and in the traditional dress reserved only for Yom Kippur, next to the Menorah. He prepares to speak to the seven churches.. It should be noted here that the order of service changed with each service, but the duties and the order of service up to the offering of the daily sacrifice remained basically the same. The daily Temple service differed from the Sabbath service, the new Moon service, with each Feast day and the eventuality of Sabbaths falling on New Moon or Feast day, etc. in terms of the number, type and order of sacrifices offered.

The Temple priests changed shifts in twelve-hour intervals but with a certain amount of overlap depending. For instance the priest of the night shift would offer the morning sacrifice and vice versa, but the Sabbath sacrifice was offered later in the morning to allow for more worshippers to attend. The priest would receive their duties by lot, each according to the level of service to which they were called.

But during the week preceding Yom Kippur, the High Priest would take up residence in the Temple and oversee and practice every aspect of the upcoming Yom Kippur service. He could walk in and take over any duty without announcement, and often did. Plus this Feast was markedly different than all others in terms of order of service and the types and sheer number of special sacrifices. Up to five hundred priests were required to minister on that day. The High Priest on Yom Kippur would enter the Holy Place and prepare the Menorah. Five of the lamps would be cleaned, have new wicks placed in them and filled with oil while two would remain lit. This is strangely similar to the admonitions that Yeshua gives to the seven churches. Two churches received praise. Their light was still shining. The rest received rebukes and a warning that the Master would remove their lamp if they did not repent. In this manner, the Master is cleansing the Temple on earth (the body of believers).

I did a post on the nature of light and showed from scripture that light, being an idiom for knowledge, wisdom and the understanding of things holy, was in fact, a fear of the Lord. So now, gentle reader, dwell for a moment if you will on the sermon that could be preached on the following: Through prayer and supplication, our being cleaned (granted a clean heart), re-wicked (and a right spirit), re-filled with oil (the Holy Spirit) and lit (baptized with fire) that our light might shine!

And what an amazing correlation exists between what Yeshua said to the churches and the Temple services.
During the night the ‘captain of the Temple’ made his rounds. On his approach the guards had to rise and salute him in a particular manner. Any guard found asleep when on duty was beaten, or his garments were set on fire—a punishment, as we know, actually awarded. Hence the admonition to us who, as it were, are here on Temple guard, ‘Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments’ (Rev 16:15). Now observe:
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. This is remarkably similar in content to the warning to the church at Sardis:
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. In ancient times, those Levites found without physical blemish and qualified in every other way were appointed to the priesthood. Now look at this:
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. When a Levite was appointed to the priesthood, he was given a white robe, his name was written in the Temple registry on the scroll of Priests and his name was confessed before the Sanhedrin. So this too appears to be another Temple analogy.

It is common during a cold mountain morning for the Levites to gather in an inner chamber next to a fire to warm their bare feet. And those on the night shift might become sleepy before the chores in preparation of the morning service were complete. The chief among them would make his rounds and knock on the door of these chambers to see if those inside were awake and would answer. Sometimes he would bring bread to share with those that were watching for his coming.
But then the preparations for the service of the morning required each to be early astir. The priest whose duty it was to superintend the arrangements might any moment knock at the door and demand entrance. He came suddenly and unexpectedly, no one knew when. The Rabbis use almost the very words in which Scripture describes the unexpected coming of the Master (Mark 13:35), when they say, ‘Sometimes he came at the cock-crowing, sometimes a little earlier, sometimes a little later. He came and knocked, and they opened to him. Now notice the similarity:
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. And there is this:
Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.The hidden manna is an obvious reference to the Bread of Life and the white stone is complimentary to that concept. In the first century, an overcomer such as an Olympic champion would be given a “Victor’s Stone”. It was a white stone with their name engraved on it. The holder of such an honor would be supported by their hometown of village for the rest of their life. They were exempt from taxes, all food and merchandise that was needful to them was supplied for free. All they were required to do was to show their “Victor’s Stone”. In Yeshua’s day, if a person went before a judge, the verdict was announced with a stone. If the person received a dark stone then he was condemned. But if he received a white stone, then there was no condemnation and he was free. So, Yeshua is saying to the overcomer that He will never condemn him and he can go anywhere in His city and receive whatever He need for free forever. Hallelujah!

Another interesting mention in His first description of His Divine Self to the churches has to do with His relationship to the seven stars:
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.These stars are mentioned in Job and Amos as the Plaeides and the Seven Sisters. There are several things that are remarkable about this constellation. And this is where I will continue in my next post...

I hope this blesses you.
In His Love,

Kahtar
May 16th 2007, 01:00 PM
Very interesting Talmidim. Looking forward to more.

talmidim
May 16th 2007, 01:18 PM
For the next installment in this series I would re-post some information about the "seven stars" by our friend yinonyavo:


In the course of this research I found that the geographic position of six of the seven churches of Rev. are nearly identical with the six visible stars of the Pleiades. ...and they are located on the "shoulder" of the Taurus mountains of Turkey in the same position as they appear in the constellation of Taurus. The connection has also been made between the two because of the ref. in Amos 5 of the Pleiades (Kimah) as the seven stars, and the seven stars in Rev. as the messengers of the seven churches.

The Jewish sages, in some accounts believe that the change will be in the form of a Star of David. They are also the only ones who speak of the change associated with the flood as being TWO missing stars rather than one, as all the others. This is also interesting, in that now under a powerful telescope the very faint star named Estrope, which is generally not visible except under perfect conditions, is found to be a double star.

In recent centuries, Egyptologists have concluded that the pyramids may be much older than we have first suspected and MAY HAVE BEEN EXISTENT AT THE TIME OF THE FLOOD OF NOACH. Here is where it gets interesting because the Constellation KIMAH is associated directly with the Flood of Noach in Talmudic and Midrashic literature! So we can begin to see why God quizzed Job with questions about the KIMAH and Orion contextually related to a "flood of waters" in verse 34: Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover you?

The Torah sages wrote that God "took two stars away from KIMAH and brought the flood!"

This is alluded to in at least four places in Talmud Rosh HaShana, 11b and Talmud Baba M'tzia, 106b. It is also found in two other rabbinic writings: Ta'anith I bottom of 64a; and B'midbar Rabbah 10. The word KIMAH itself is found in more than a dozen places in the Jerusalem Talmud, 10 places in the Babylonian Talmud, 16 places in Rashi’s commentary to the Babylonian Talmud and 16 places in the Tosefta to the Babylonian Talmud. Every Orthodox rabbi and most non-Orthodox rabbis should be well familiar with this constellation and its relationship to the flood of Noah.

Here are a few of the most specific references: Talmud Rosh Hashana 11b: It has been taught: ‘In the sixth hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month.
 R. Joshua said: That day was the seventeenth day of Iyar, when the constellation of KIMAH sets at daybreak and the fountains begin to dry up, and because they [mankind] perverted their ways, the Holy One, blessed be He, changed for them the work of creation and made the constellation of KIMAH rise at daybreak and took two stars from the KIMAH and brought a flood on the world.
 R. Eliezer said: That day was the seventeenth of Heshvan, a day on which the constellation of KIMAH rises at daybreak, and [the season] when the fountains begin to fill. FOOTNOTE TO THE TALMUD: There seems to be some confusion in the text here. To make it astronomically correct we should read (with the Seder Olam) in the dictum of R. Joshua, ‘When KIMAH rises at daybreak’, and in the dictum of R. Eliezer, ‘sets at daybreak’.

In the month of Adar, corresponding to mid-February to March, the KIMAH appears to be overhead at the time the peasant finishes his work, viz., about four in the afternoon. Thus R. Papa states that seed time is governed by Adar (and KIMAH).

Elsewhere in Talmudic literature, knowledge is compared to the KIMAH, which causes the ripening of fruits and gives them taste. Since taste is a function of smell (try holding your nose when something tastes bad ... it works for my son) and the attribute by which the Talmud states the Torah devout will recognize the Messiah is by his smell; there is an ancient opinion that when the time of the Messiah nears, the people will look for a sign in the constellation KIMAH. B’re**** Rabbah 10.

Contextually the constellation may be related to the exiled House of Joseph, because it is alternatively called, Taurus or the constellation of the ox or bull. This is alluded to in B're**** (Genesis) 49:5-6 (where the rabbinim interpret the "ox" who is maimed by Simeon and Levi as Joseph); and again in the blessing of Moses on the House of Joseph, found in D'varim (Deutoronomy) 33:13-17, where Joseph is called by Moses, "the firstling of Hashem's bullock," who has the horns of the "re'eym." (verse 17). The constellation itself with its box-like head and two horns, reminds one of the head of a bullock.

Deuteronomy 33:17 goes on to state that with the horns of the re'eym, HASHEM will "gore" nations together to the ends of the Land. And these nations are the myriads of Ephraim and the thousands of Manasseh -- the House of Joseph. Moses Ben-Maimon also known as Maimomides and the Rambam, states of this verse: "the two horns represent the two branches of Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh."

In Psalm 22:22, Hashem answers "from the horns of the Re'eym." The next verse, verse 23 states: "I will proclaim Your Name to my brethren." The Jewish sage Radak wrote that this meant when HASHEM raised the horn of the re'eym, that those who knew Hashem should tell what they know to their brothers, "the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel who had been exiled to Chalach and Chabur."

The Talmud, Tosefta and other rabbinic writings present this record of the KIMAH as the only constellation which has undergone any observable change since Creation. Consequently, if there were to be a sign in the Heavens that would be accepted by the rabbinim or leaders of Judah today, especially as it pertains to validating the Return of the House of Joseph, it might be an occurrence in KIMAH that would rectify the change recorded in the earlier rabbinic writings and alluded to in Scripture

The second mention of the KIMAH in Scripture is found in Amos 5:8.

Oseh KIMAH uchsil ve hofeych laboker tzalmavet veyom lailah hechshich Literally, "He who made the KIMAH and CHESIL (Orion) and turns darkness into morning and day He darkens as night."

This alludes to the fact that the KIMAH traverses the pre-dawn sky "turning darkness into morning" ON THE SAME PLANE AS THE SUN, whose course through the sky turns day into night.

Rabbinic exegesis of 5:8 "turning day to night and night to day," contains a profound spiritual truth. understanding will be turned upside down. Those who think they understand will be shown that they do not. And those, whose understanding has been questioned or put down by the former, will be exalted. More understanding will be added to them. But we can't lose sight of the fact that this reversal of understanding literally relates to a change in the heavens in the context of the Return of the House of Joseph. The natural conclusion to draw is that the change in KIMAH indicates a sign in the heavens that may SIGNAL the Return or some related event.

And then there is the mystery that has puzzled humanity as long as mankind has gazed at the stars above. The mystery is why the KIMAH is called the Constellation of Seven Sisters, when only six stars are visible with the naked eye? Is it possible that one of the stars was a doubled star? Or, was it possible that before the flood, the constellation's six stars formed a seventh, the Cocav David or Star of David? If this Cocav David will again appear in the pre-dawn sky, what does it mean?

The context in which Hashem has couched this "mystery of the Seven Sisters" is a lamentation over the House of Israel.
Only such a heavenly sign may convince the House of Judah to recognize that Hashem’s plan to restore Tzion (Zion) includes the non-Jewish House of Joseph

This may be conjecture, but let us propose that the secret of the Seventh Sister IS the rising again of the degel Tzion (a banner) to gather, recall and return the House of Israel.

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign (Strong's def.=flag or banner) of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign (flag) for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
The modern Israeli flag, under which the Jewish population in the modern Jewish state has thus far reunited is such a banner. But the rabbinim are looking for such IN THE HEAVENLIES, as indicated by the Rambam, Radak and other sages quoted above.

In the Last Days, followers of Y'shua also are told to look into the Heavens for specific signs. This raises the question of whether the sign the rabbinim expect is the same sign that Y'shua promised would be revealed to his followers and which would validate his mission as the shaliah (one sent) to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

Earlier we mentioned that the KIMAH in Talmudic literature "causes the ripening of fruit." Ephraim in Hebrew means "double-fruitful." The blessings of fruitfulness associated with Joseph also are evident in Genesis 49 and again in Deuteronomy 33.
But in Genesis 48:19, Ephraim is also called the "melo ha-goyim." This term is translated "multitude of nations" but its literal meaning is "the fullness of the goyim or Gentiles." The shaliah Paul in Romans 11 refers to this "fullness of the Gentiles" as triggering the "return or rescue" (Gr.. sothesetai) of ALL of (the House of) Israel.

Here we submit that Y'shua could well be referring to the Assimilation of Israel among the Gentile church.

Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the ASTRAPE cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the PAROUSIA of the Son of man be.

ASTRAPE - Strongs 796 = Lightning or bright shining (Strongs), = the gleam of a lamp (Thayers) = a flash such as lightning (Liddell & Scott), illumination of the sky accompanying cosmic phenomenon; also a derivative form ASTRO pertains to any star or constellation (Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich)

PAROUSIA - Strongs 3952 presence, arrival, advent. (Thayers)

ASTRAPE is not necessarily a bolt of lightning, which strikes at random and does not necessarily light the sky from east to west. Rather this presence, arrival or advent, Y'shua describes is likened to a cosmic phenomenon that may directly refer to a specific star or constellation.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The analogy to the sign of the coming of the Son of Man and the flood of Noach is again striking, especially because the change in the constellation Kimah is tied to the flood and by implication, this eschatological sign.

I posted all of that to make this one simple point. The seven stars have been associated since the earliest times with the first judgment on earth, the flood. It is by it's inclusion in Revelation, associated to the second judgment at the "Day of the Lord" and is therefore associated with Yom Kippur.

Just trying to keep things consistent...
In His Love,

talmidim
May 16th 2007, 01:58 PM
OK, pay attention. Notice that all of these things that I have mentioned so far, are done in preparation for the morning service.

So let’s continue with the order of events that led up to the opening of the Temple. There was a priest assigned to look for the sunrise, breaking over the mountains of Hebron. Priests were assigned to blow the Trumpets and/or the Shofar (depending on what service was being performed) to announce the commencement of the morning service and daily sacrifice at the break of day. The keys to the Temple were held at the ready and the massive doors would be swung open at that time to let in the worshippers. After the sacrifice, the High Priest would sprinkle the blood in the prescribed manner and light the incense. This before any of the special sacrifices prescribed for the Sabbath, a New Moon or a Feast Day.

We need the priests (saints) to be awake and about their duties. And as I mentioned before, this is represented in the admonishments to the churches.

We need the incense (prayers of the saints) to be prepared.

We need the Menorah to be cleaned, re-wicked, re-filled with oil and lit.

So what else do we need to before we announce the morning service with the trumpet and open the doors to the Temple?

We need a Lamb.

Now notice the order of events set down in these scriptures:
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Rev 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.True to form, the doors to the heavenly Temple are opened with the sound of trumpets. The four beasts (living creatures), the twenty-four Elders and indeed all present begin the worship. And the Lion of Judah, the Lamb “that was slain from the foundations of the world” is present. All the components needed to open the morning service are represented.

I should also remark that there were four classes of people that were included in the Temple service. The Priests, the Levites, the Nethinim (servants to the Levites) and the Israelites (worshippers and occasionally musicians). And since the Nethinim are unfamiliar to most of the readers I will include the following:


In point of fact, while no less than 4,289 priests had returned from Babylon, the number of Levites was under 400 (Ezra 2:40-42; Neh 7:43-45), of whom only 74 were ‘priests’ assistants.’ To this the next immigration, under Ezra, added only 38, and that though the Levites had been specially searched for (Ezra 8:15, 18, 19). According to tradition, Ezra punished them by depriving them of their tithes. The gap in their number was filled up by 220 Nethinim (Ezra 8:20), literally, ‘given ones,’ probably originally strangers and captives, 32 as in all likelihood the Gibeonites had been the first ‘Nethinim’ (Josh 9:21, 23, 27).

Though the Nethinim, like the Levites and priests, were freed from all taxation (Ezra 7:24), and perhaps also from military service (Jos. Anti. iii. 12; iv. 4, 3.), the Rabbinists held them in the lowest repute—beneath a bastard, though above a proselyte—forbade their intermarrying with Israelites, and declared them incapable of proper membership in the congregation.It the Revelation there are also four classes of people in the heavenly Temple. There is the High Priest that is Yeshua, the Four Beasts representing the original four courses of the Levites, the twenty-four Elders that represent the saints (and include the 144,000) both Jew and Gentile, and the four horsemen that represent the Nethinim (doing the bidding of the Four Beasts – the four division of Levites).

I am certain that this subject will require explanation and confirmation in scripture, so I will attempt to provide that here. I will also assume that the role of Yeshua as High Priest is above challenge, so I will start with the Four Beasts.

The layout of the wilderness camp is given in great detail in the book of Numbers. Each tribe had a position in the camp, was under a banner and their position corresponded with the location of the four divisions of the Levites. Judah was placed on the east, and under him he had Issachar and Zebulun; on the south was Reuben, and under him Simeon and Gad: on the west was Ephraim, and under him Manasseh and Benjamin; finally, Dan was on the north, and he had under him Asher and Naphtali.

This from the commentary of Kiel & Delitzsch:
Neither the Mosaic law, nor the Old Testament generally, gives us any intimation as to the form or character of the standard (degel). According to rabbinical tradition, the standard of Judah bore the figure of a lion, that of Reuben the likeness of a man or of a man's head, that of Ephraim the figure of an ox, and that of Dan the figure of an eagle; so that the four living creatures united in the cherubic forms described by Ezekiel were represented upon these four standards.
Note: Jerome Prado, in his commentary upon Ezekiel (ch. 1 p. 44), gives the following minute description according to rabbinical tradition:
“The different leaders of the tribes had their own standards, with the crests of their ancestors depicted upon them. On the east, above the tent of Naasson the first-born of Judah, there shone a standard of a green colour, this colour having been adopted by him because it was in a green stone, viz., an emerald, that the name of his forefather Judah was engraved on the breastplate of the high priest (Exo_25:15.), and on this standard there was depicted a lion, the crest and hieroglyphic of his ancestor Judah, whom Jacob had compared to a lion, saying, 'Judah is a lion's whelp.' Towards the south, above the tent of Elisur the son of Reuben, there floated a red standard, having the colour of the sardus, on which the name of his father, viz., Reuben, was engraved upon the breastplate of the high priest. The symbol depicted upon this standard was a human head, because Reuben was the first-born, and head of the family. On the west, above the tent of Elishamah the son of Ephraim, there was a golden flag, on which the head of a calf was depicted, because it was through the vision of the calves or oxen that his ancestor Joseph had predicted and provided for the famine in Egypt (Gen 41); and hence Moses, when blessing the tribe of Joseph, i.e., Ephraim (Deu_33:17), said, 'his glory is that of the first-born of a bull.' The golden splendour of the standard of Ephraim resembled that of the chrysolite, in which the name of Ephraim was engraved upon the breastplate. Towards the north, above the tent of Ahiezer the son of Dan, there floated a motley standard of white and red, like the jaspis (or, as some say, a carbuncle), in which the name of Dan was engraved upon the breastplate. The crest upon this was an eagle, the great doe to serpents, which had been chosen by the leader in the place of a serpent, because his forefather Jacob had compared Dan to a serpent, saying, 'Dan is a serpent in the way, an adder (cerastes, a horned snake) in the path;' but Ahiezer substituted the eagle, the destroyer of serpents as he shrank from carrying an adder upon his flag.”

And So, we place the camp of the Levites in the following order: To the west, the Gershonites, (Num 3:22, 23). To the south, the Kohathites, (Num 3:28, 29). To the north, the Merarites, (Num 3:34, 35). And on the east, Moses, Aaron, and his sons, (Num 3:38). What is of significance is this. The Levites would first erect the Tabernacle and then arrange themselves in the order described above. There would the tribes assume their place in the encampment, setting the four major banners of Judah (the Lion), Rueben (the Man), Ephraim (the Ox) and Dan (the Eagle) according to the order of the Levites and next to them respectively – not the other way around as some might assume.

The twenty-four Elders are clearly portrayed as saints in this book. In vs. 1:6 we are called kings and priests. In vs 4:4 the Elders are described in white rainment with gold crowns. All throughout scripture only the saints are described as receive crowns. This distinction does not go to angel or any other celestial being. Crowns only go to the overcomers. In chapter 4, a door is opened. Since this is the heavenly Temple and a trumpet accompanies the opening of that door, this corresponds to when the Temple is opened to the worshipers. In heaven, these are the saints and I believe that this is the time of the "rapture". There are already some righteous Elders that have preceded us into heaven.The twenty-four Elders are already ministering before the Throne as representatives of the saints. They have twenty-four divisions, just as the earthly priest did. Keep in mind that this means that the saints are already in heaven when the tribulation period begins. Also notice that the Two Witnesses and the 144,000 are not, yet they appear in chapter 11 with the Lamb. They ascend at the mid-point of the seven years of the tribulation. For those counting, this means that there are two raptures, “one pre-trib” and one “mid-trib”. This by the way, fits nicely with the morning and evening service, with the 144,000 taking on the role of the evening priests.
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. Shades of Ezekiel 9. Hmmm... Anyway, concerning the 144,00 as the priests of the evening service, consider this:
The evening sacrifice was fixed by the Law (Num 28:4, 8) as ‘between the evenings,’ that is, between the darkness of the gloaming and that of the night.70 Such admonitions as ‘to show forth thy faithfulness every night upon an instrument of ten strings and on the psaltery’ (Psa 92:2, 3), and the call to those who ‘by night stand in the house of the Lord,’ to ‘lift up their hands in the sanctuary and bless the Lord’ (Psa 134), seem indeed to imply an evening service—an impression confirmed by the appointment of Levite singers for night service in 1 Chronicles 9:33; 23:30.
...and this is where I will leave off for now, with a taste of where the evening service begins. There is much more to this study, but I will let you chew on this for a bit before I continue...

In His Love,

BTW, reading Edershiem's "The Temple" will help you understand a little more what I am offering here

In His Love,

Studyin'2Show
May 16th 2007, 03:46 PM
Yes, very interesting indeed! Keep it coming! :D

Jesusinmyheart
May 16th 2007, 04:25 PM
I'm chewing allright.... :D

talmidim
May 16th 2007, 07:20 PM
Before I continue I have something of note from a dear friend. I hope this blesses you. The following is a line of inquiry that compiles and summarizes several years of research by Charles YTK. Due to its length, I will post it in two parts:

John the Apostle and the Zadokim connection

I have some fragmented connections but they would be difficult to prove. John was a disciple of John the baptizer before leaving John to follow Yeshua. John the Baptizer was consecrated to serve God and seems to have been raised by holy men in the wilderness, even though his father was a priest.


JN 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; [36] And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God! [37] And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.. . . [40] One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. John mentions Andrew and typically refers to himself as “The other disciple” in his narrative.These holy men I believe to be Escenes, because of the message that John preaches, his vow of celibacy, his crude manner of dress and his disdain for the temple authority and the corruption of the entire Judaic system. His message prepare a way for the lord, make straight paths for him, are right out of the Escene Membership manual.


Is 40: ISA 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. [4] Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: This verse is a key “mantra” quoted in the Qumran scroll of discipline.

The Escenes saw themselves as the ones who were preparing for the Lord, their name sometimes interpreted as “The expectant ones” and calling the nation to repentance and cleansing, which for the Escenes was demonstrated through the baptisms which for the more extreme sectarians was several times a day. There have been a lot of books written about the sect. (Dead Sea Scrolls uncovered by Robert Eisenman and Michael Wise; The Dead sea scrolls and the Early Church by Lucetta Mowry; Understanding the Dead Sea Scrolls by Hershel Shanks; to name a few.)



Otto Betz wrote a chapter in Understanding the Dead Sea Scrolls by Hershel Shank book pg. 205 showing the connection between the Qumran sect and John the Baptist. I have many books on the scrolls in my library. Some suggest that the Escene “TempleScroll” might be a sixth and previously lost book of the Torah according to German theologian Hartmut Stegman and that is was rejected as Canon under the reforms of Ezra in the 5th century BCE.



Many of the books of the Escenes were not sectarian but mainstream Judaism and canonical books and the Temple scroll is a good fit to the rest of Torah. It does not recover many of the other five books of Torah but stands to compliment them and “Flesh them out” you might say. At the same time the temple scroll is not a basis or reflection of Escene doctrine or the dictates of their own manual of disciple, therefore making it clear that it is not their own writing but was something copied and brought in as a reference. It is undecided as to where it fits in other Jewish writings and most notably Torah itself.

The legitimate priesthood was the Zadokites from the days of David. It was they who carried the Ark into Jerusalem and who anointed Solomon King.( I Kings 1:32) David has a covenant relationship with them. Zadokite means sons of righteousness. We see the base name Zadok, “righteous”. It is reflected in the previous high priest to Abraham Melchizedek, (King of Righteousness) and this man is a forerunner or possibly a pre-ephany of Messiah Yeshua himself, who is a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek. These righteous priests were expelled under the tyranny of Antiochus Epiphanes. He actually sold the high priesthood to the highest bidder you might say.

From NIV commentary:

The original friction had arisen over the question of the high priesthood. Early in his reign Antiochus IV had been approached by a younger member of the high priestly family named Jason, who promised the king that if he would depose from office the current, legitimate high priest, Onias III, then he--Jason--would pay the king a handsome bribe for this service. Antiochus was happy to accede to this request; Onias was removed and Jason installed in his place. But once the precedent of imperial interference had been set, still another brother, Menelaus, offered Antiochus a bribe still larger than Jason's if he would be installed in place of Jason. Antiochus had no scruples about supplanting one rascal by another, so long as he himself was enriched in the process. So in 172 B.C. Menelaus took Jason's place and set about selling some of the votive offerings and golden utensils of the temple to raise the cash necessary for the bribe. At this sacrilege the godly high priest Onias, though deposed, earnestly protested and so angered Menelaus that he had Onias killed. But this murder so angered the populace of Jerusalem that they became bitter against Menelaus and sent representatives to Antiochus himself to accuse Menelaus and his wicked brother Lysimachus. Antiochus did execute Andronicus, the agent of Menelaus who had murdered Onias. But a little later a courtier Menelaus had bribed persuaded Antiochus to act against the Jerusalemites. So instead of punishing Menelaus as he deserved, the king had the Jerusalem representatives put to death in Tyre, where the whole matter was being adjudicated (cf. 2Macc 4:30-50).


Later on (167 B.C.) Antiochus, following his bitter disappointment in Egypt, went and encamped near Jerusalem. He had a score to settle with Jason, who had taken the city in an effort to overthrow Menelaus. Acting on a false report that Antiochus had died in Egypt, Jason had organized a regiment of a thousand armed supporters for a coup d'etat. He massacred a large number of citizens and shut Menelaus up in the Jerusalem citadel. Hearing of this, Antiochus decided to suppress the Jewish religion altogether and to exact stern reprisal from those who had taken up arms against his government. So he marched into Jerusalem with overwhelming forces, released Menelaus, and conducted a massacre in which eighty thousand men, women, and children were put to the sword (2Mc 5:11-14). Then he profaned the temple, accompanied by the despicable Menelaus, and robbed it of its golden vessels and other sacred objects (vv. 15-21).


The date of this desecration and pillage of Jerusalem was Dec. 16, 168 B.C (see comments on 8:9-10)--a day of special significance, seeing that exactly four years later the patriot leader Judas Maccabaeus rededicated the temple to the worship of the Lord, having cleansed it from all its pagan defilements. But the actual suspension of the regular morning and evening sacrifices had apparently taken place 55 or 54 days prior to the desecration of the temple itself (if our interpretation of Da 8:14 is correct), because three years would total 1,095 or 1,096 days, and the 2,300 "evenings and mornings" (i.e., sacrifices) come out to 1,150 days. It seems, therefore, that during the earlier disturbances between Jason and Menelaus the regular daily offerings were suspended since the incumbent high priest was shut up in the Acra (Citadel) by Jason's troops. This, then, was the fulfillment of the prediction of 11:28 regarding Antiochus's "action" taken "against the holy covenant." This verse actually sums up the entire series of measures taken by Antiochus in suppressing the religious liberties of Judah, from 172 to 168 B.C.


*************PART ONE ***************

talmidim
May 16th 2007, 07:24 PM
Before I continue I have something of note from a dear friend. I hope this blesses you. The following is a line of inquiry that compiles and summarizes several years of research by Charles YTK:

John the Apostle and the Zadokim connection PART II
John the Baptist was given to the Escenes to be raised in their teachings. John’s father Zechariah was himself a descendant of the same tribal clan as Zadok. John the Apostle was formerly a disciple of John the Baptist before leaving John to follow Yeshua, and more than likely had tribal connections to them as well. This would make at least a very strong connection between the Zadokim and John the Apostle if not in linage at least in ideology and faith. John the Apostle was either an Escene or was at least a disciple of the Escenes who were Zadokim. After the Zadokites were expelled and replaced by Saducean (Hasmoneans) they settled in an area of Jerusalem that is on the very slopes of the Temple mount, a place known as the Escene Quarter. It is in this place that the summer house of David and his actual throne was located, probably the only two story structure in the 1st century. and the most likely location of, The last seder of Yeshua, (The last supper) . It seems so prophetically appropriate that Yeshua would institute the New Covenant and become our King from the very place that David ruled as King. And it was the place where the spirit was poured out on Shavuot, (Notice that Peter makes several references to David and that his grave was there with them and also quotes Davids prophetic words concerning Messiah.. (Acts 2:25-36)

Acts 2: [29] Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. It is also interesting to note that when the people respond to this message that the very attributes of the first church is completely in keeping with the Escenes practices of holding no personal property but holding all things in common so that no one has need of anything or goes without.

Acts 2: [42] And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. [43] And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. [44] And all that believed were together, and had all things common; [45] And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. [46] And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
The Zadokites were in covenant with David to be the only legitimate high priests. So they were housed near his home in what was later known as the Escene Quarter. This house of David also was the site of the church of James. James was said to have been continuously a Nazarite and as such had the same right as a priest even though he is from the tribe of Judah. James was often found in the temple praying in the holy place according to Josephus. This indicates also that the first church, was located very close to the temple as the Escene Quarter and the house of David was.

When we read the revelation we see two things that speak of Escene/Zadokite theology, first of many similar references that find chorus in other Escene writings or cherished books like Enoch, who says that during Armageddon the blood will fill the valley to the horses bridle;

Rev 14: [19] And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [20] And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. And that here come the lord with 10,000 time 10,000 of his saints and others such quotes.

Rev 5: [11] And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Also Jude, the brother of Yeshua, quotes Enoch,

[14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, [15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. The quotes go unnoticed because the bible only provides reference to canonical books and never to non-canonical. So we do not realize the strong similarities unless we have read Enoch and other such works. And the other point is that in revelation we see the purification of the temple service and the cleansing of the temple from its former Hasmonean filth which is a long anticipated hope of the Escenes/Zadokites. For example their writing The war of the sons of light and the sons of darkness and the Temple scroll and The manual of discipline.

So for me if you want to know more about John and his background, I think you have to get into the dead sea scrolls. Many of the Escenes it seems became early disciples of Yeshua as they were waiting for and expecting imminently the coming of the Messiah. When the spirit was poured on on Shavuot, it takes place once again from the throne of David in the Escene quarter, and thre thousand immediately accept Yeshua as messiah and are baptized and saved. It would be interesting to note also that archeologist have discovered a ritual “Mikvah” (ritual bath) right next door to this summer home of David, where the first church of James was established. This Mikvah (Baptismal) would have served for the rituals baptisms of the many converts. (see TheMessanic Seal of the Jerusalem church, Reuven Ephraim Schmalz, and Raymond Fischer.

I believe it was the Escenes who continually prepared things for Yeshua like the upper room for Passover,

MK 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? [13] And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him. [14] And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? [15] And he will show you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us. (Note: Carrying water jars was considered a womans task. The Escenes were mostly celibate and would have to carry their own water pots. Also the place where the Passover was already prepared in in the upper room of David’s summer Palace. The sons of Righteousness (Zadokim) were given the task of preparing David’s house in ancient times and I believe also for Messiah.)

The donkey that was to be ridden into Jerusalem;

Matt 21: MT 21:1 And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples, [2] Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. [3] And if any man say aught unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.
The Escenes provided a place to stay in most towns. These former Zadokim were key to his ministry in my opinion. The Escenes provided protection and housing for widows and orphans and the poor or sick or disenfranchised in almost every town in Judea.

And thus ends this summary of the Apostle John and his association with the High Priesthood of the Zadokim.

In His Love,

Kahtar
May 16th 2007, 10:02 PM
I appreciate all the hard work you are going through providing all this for us, Talmidim. Exceedingly interesting! And as ever leaves me wanting more.:)
But all in due time. Meanwhile we've got a lot to chew on.

talmidim
May 17th 2007, 02:33 AM
Hey you guys,

I was looking at this verse in Revelation 4:1. Notice that the Temple door is opened in heaven. This would be by the example of the earthly service, where the worshipers are invited in. We know who the worshipers are. That is us. Who do you suppose has the power to open that door? Could it be the One that holds the keys of sheol and death? These keys would seem to be the keys that control the doorway between the physical and the spiritual. And He is also the holder of the key of David, and that seems to be directly related to the right to rule Israel and earth. In any case, the door is opened from the inside of the heavenly Temple. And the command is issued, “Come up hither”! Now let’s look at the trumpet.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, (11a) Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: This by definition, could be the “trump of God” If that sounds familiar there is good reason.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17 ) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (2) And immediately I was in the spiritNow call me crazy, but this seems to be a picture of the rapture. Where, by the command of Yeshua, and by the authority of the keys He has been given, our High Priest Yeshua, opens the Temple of heaven. At the proper time to fulfill that which is written, His saints will be commanded to, “Come up hither” even as He commanded John in His revelation.

And concerning the four types of people in the revelation, I am not as sure as I would like to be. However, for the purpose of this discussion, only one group is really important. Namely, where do we fit in. And I think that issue has been addressed. However there is more scripture that confirms my belief that the saints are represented here.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
(8) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Everywhere I look there are indicators of the saints already in heaven. And there is only one way to get there physically...

I'm working on organizing the rest of this material. I hope to present it over the next few days

Kahtar
May 17th 2007, 04:51 AM
This is my understanding as well. The 'last trump' indicates that there was a 'first trump', and that, according to what I have read, was blown at Mt. Sinai.
The ram caught by its two horns at Isaac's sacrifice plays into that, the one horn referring to Mt. Sinai, and the second, or last, referring to the time of 'salvation' and resurrection.
Psa 18:2 The LORD [is] my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, [and] my high tower.
2Sa 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: [he is] my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.
I can't find the quote at the moment, but there are a couple references in the Talmud(?) regarding the blowing of that horn bringing about their salvation in the last days.

talmidim
May 19th 2007, 09:52 PM
There are many that think that the concept of the rapture of the church was developed in the 1800s. But after some reflection, I believe that the concept is much older than that. I recently had an exchange with my friend Charles concerning the parable of the virgins.

Charles was correctly pointing out that the Master's audience was "Jews of all stripes", but Jews none the less. And many in that culture and in that day believed that they would be saved for no other reason than they were Jews and of the chosen people. His rather pragmatic view made me take another look at this parable. And after prayer and study this is what I wrote back to him:

Your position that Yeshua was addressing a Jewish audience is not without merit. Of course, this does not negate the universal truth of His teaching. Nor does it specifically confine His spiritual axioms to the Torah observant, or to the ethnic or cultural Jew. But, it is apparent in other scriptures that Yeshua understood His teaching would be recorded for a much wider audience. I choose to define the elements of this parable with scriptural and cultural context. But we must remember that first and foremost, it is a parable. Here is what Yeshua taught about parables:

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
I am not saying that many among the number of hearers did not take it as an admonition that more was required to enter the kingdom than just their Jewishness. I am saying that there is a deeper meaning that was a mystery to them.

So what does scripture and Hebraic contexts teach about this parable? It is an end time teaching couched in the context of the Jewish wedding of the first century. In that it speaks of achieving the kingdom of heaven and the wedding supper of the Lamb it is clearly "end time". The wedding is related in many ancient writings to Yom Teruah. They are both called "the day and hour that no man knows but the Father". And as it is related to the Fall Feasts, so too is it related to the Revelation of Yeshua. The five wise virgins are after all, invited in to the wedding feast; something likened to the "kingdom of heaven" at the beginning of the parable. The mystery is why they made it and the foolish did not.

The elements of this scripture are:

The Virgins
The Bridegroom
The Lamps
The Oil
The Timing – When the Bridegroom comesI think we can agree that the Bridegroom is Yeshua. The object of the parable is to illustrate under what circumstances the virgins are allowed into the kingdom of heaven. So let’s start with the virgins.

Virgins are by definition pure, so purity is not an issue. The defining element is therefore wisdom. Wisdom is defined in scripture, the beginning of which is the Fear of the Lord. This appears to be an attitude or spirit rather than just knowledge.

The Lamps are as you say related to the Word. They are also common to both sets of virgins, so it would seem that knowledge of the Word is not a defining issue either.

According to the parable, what makes a virgin wise is having oil, but not only that. Throughout scripture, oil is related to the Holy Spirit. It is related to the anointing. But what is crucial in this parable is not just the possession of the oil, it is the timing. The foolish virgins do indeed get more oil. And they petition the Bridegroom for entry into the wedding feast. But they are not only denied, but the Bridegroom denies even knowing them. Why?

The answer seems obvious to me. It is not you and I that Yeshua recognizes. It is His Father’s Spirit within us. And it is not enough that we have been baptized in His Spirit. We must maintain that relationship through to the end, whether by death or rapture that we enter into His kingdom.

I would remind you of the interaction Yeshua had with Nicodemus. When a proselyte entered the mikvah and was submerged, he was said to be "born again" as a Jew when he emerged. Nicodemus, already a Jew, did not understand that Yeshua was speaking of a spiritual rebirth that does not know the bounds of ethnicity or culture or strict Torah observance.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. So, in that many Jews saw their ethnicity as a free ride, you are correct. But the Master also taught the water mikvah AND the mikvah of the Ruach HaKodesh. He taught a baptism by the Spirit and by fire. And the Master understood that these sayings would be preserved for a wider audience. This He demonstrated several times in the Gospels.

And finally, it is by His timing that we are to meet with Him. He has numbered our days. And He has set His appointed times. So we had better stir up the Spirit within. We are best served by seeking Him in repentance, supplication and petition. We must seek a refreshing and refilling of His Spirit if we expect to be ready when the Bridegroom comes. Jew and Gentile alike, it is His Spirit that is shining within us and nothing else.

That ends how I responded to my friend, but that got me thinking about something else. The first Passover was a picture of the sacrifice of our Lord, and the elements of that Feast are evident, not just in the sacrifice of our Lord, but are consistent with some of the the end-time events portrayed in the Revelation.

The Feast of Weeks is often compared with the giving of the Ten Commandments and this struck a chord. Shavout is a parallel to Pentecost in more ways than one. Not only was the Commandments given at the same time that the Spirit was given, that His laws be written on our inward parts, but that all of the symbols of Exodus 19 is a picture of the rapture.

In a nutshell, the Lord came down in fire and a cloud of smoke and Moses went up to meet Him. All those that traveled with the children of Israel were invited to come up, but they were foolish and instead chose to have an intermediary intercede for them instead of a personal relationship of their own. They had the spirit of fear instead of a spirit of faith. Does any of this sound familiar?

Kahtar
May 19th 2007, 11:37 PM
Yes, quite familiar. I had not seen that in Exodus 19 before. Thanks!
I had that understanding of the parable already, but not with that clarity. I had never really broken it down and examined it's elements that way. Very good!

Kahtar
May 27th 2007, 02:24 PM
resurrection spoken of by Ezekiel
Can you give me a reference on this?

teshuva
May 27th 2007, 03:30 PM
Hi talmidim!

I just finished reading the first installment of your notes on the book 'The Temple'. I have to tell you, it is very interesting! I love the comparisons with the Yom Kippur Temple service.
Alot of hard work went into this. Thank you for sharing what God has led you to discover!!

I'm about to print out the rest of your study!!

God Bless

talmidim
May 27th 2007, 03:45 PM
Can you give me a reference on this?Valley of the Dry Bones my friend. Some see this as a separate event from the first resurrection and some don't.

BTW, I am sorry I haven't posted more on this topic lately. The diagnosis came in. It's mononucleosis. In a man of my advanced years, that is very rare and very severe. It can last as long as six months and there is no medical treatment for the Epstein-Barr virus that causes it. I am currently in my second or third month, depending. There are also a number of complementary infections that sometimes include ear infections and streptococcus. I got everything and I got it bad. It caused a profound and permanent loss of hearing in my left ear and continued extreme bouts of vertigo.

That is what I have been dealing with this week - vertigo and fatigue (the primary symptom of mono). The room starts spinning. I get all stressed out trying not to lose my lunch and suffer extreme fatigue from the effort. Then I sleep for the majority of the next two days. The only thing that seems to help are sinus tables that dry me up. And that's not such a good thing when the doctor tells me not to get dehydrated. Anyhow, that's where my week has gone.

All that aside, I pray that you and everyone else is blessed on this Shavout (yeah, I'm one of those that celebrates it on the day after the weekly Sabbath). Shabbat shalom, Achi.

Kahtar
May 27th 2007, 06:30 PM
Thank you Talmidim. And I should have seen it.......oh well.
My wife and I will start holding you up in prayer, because, as you know, there IS One Cure for that disease. You are too valuable to the kingdom to be laying around in bed for 6 months!

talmidim
May 27th 2007, 06:36 PM
Thank you Talmidim. And I should have seen it.......oh well.
My wife and I will start holding you up in prayer, because, as you know, there IS One Cure for that disease. You are too valuable to the kingdom to be laying around in bed for 6 months!Thanks Dear Brother,

But this might be the will of the Father. I haven't gotten to study and pray this much in a long time. :D

Still, I am sick and tired of being sick and tired... But His will be done!

Kahtar
Jun 4th 2007, 01:04 PM
So how ya doing Tamidim?

talmidim
Jun 4th 2007, 10:29 PM
So how ya doing Tamidim?Shalom Brother,

I am sorry for my lack of follow-up on this topic. There are extenuating circumstances that have affected me though. I hope that you and everyone else will forgive me.

I have had a build up of fluid in my left ear causing severe vertigo. When this occurs I am severely dizzy which is usually accompanied by nausea. But I cannot lay my head down or the sensations worsen.

A sinus table usually dries me up sufficiently for the episode to pass, but it takes a while for it to take effect, often an hour or so. And because of the mononucleosis, the end of one of these episodes leaves me exhausted and sleep consumes the major part of the following two days.

It is for this cause and others that I have absent from the board as of late. I will wake to find my computer displaying the same page I was reading before, but often a day or two behind the conversation. Needless to say, it has affected my ability to focus or to study much.

I am adding certain diuretics to my diet in the hope that this will help. This thought encourages me and I hope to return to my normally infrequent posting soon.

In His Love,

Kahtar
Jun 4th 2007, 11:34 PM
Okay, we'll keep praying for you. Take care of yourself. We can wait patiently for your continuance here.
God bless.............
:pray:

Teke
Jun 5th 2007, 02:52 PM
Talmidim, I have seen what you've posted here on the CCEL site. Are you the same poster ("talmid" @ the CCEL site)?

What is your reference for what you posted in your first post?

From OP, "The Bishop of Ephesus is quoted in a letter as saying the Apostle John had, "put off the Mitre". He made another reference to the breastplate later in the same letter and seemed to imply that John was somehow associated with the High Priesthood. "

What bishop of Ephesus and what letter?

OneStep
Jun 7th 2007, 10:48 PM
I have just stumbled onto this forum and thread and am held captivated. After reading all up to this posting of yours and telling us of you ailments, my heart goes out to you. I am quite familiar with Vertigo and the horrid effects of it. The doctors had put me on a medication called Mecklazine...not sure exactly of the spelling. Actually my diagnosis was not fluid buildup in the ears it was called "Minears Disease" once again not sure of the spelling, has to do with the little hairy fibers in you ear. Other than that it was a three day bed stay with my eyes closed and no movement unless absolutely necessary and that was crawling on my knees to that special room of relief.
My prayers gou out for you.
I also wanted to say that I have studied the tabernacle and find it much as you say and yet I have not had the references that you have provided. I have had many years of fascination with the tabernacle and find it never-ending in exploration.
I Praise God that he has led me to this thread and has given me further insight along with confirmation.
Thank you for your teachings.....pass the meat please. :blushhap:

Kahtar
Jun 9th 2007, 11:46 PM
Teke, if you haven't read it already, I think post 11 answers your question.

If you happen to have the Anit-Nicene Fathers, you can read it in Volume Viii, p. 773.
Or here:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.x.xi.html

Teke
Jun 10th 2007, 01:55 AM
Teke, if you haven't read it already, I think post 11 answers your question.

If you happen to have the Anit-Nicene Fathers, you can read it in Volume Viii, p. 773.
Or here:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.x.xi.html

Thanks Kahtar. :)
I did read it. But I believe Talmid doesn't understand the eastern Christians of which this letter speaks. In eastern Christianity a bishop wears the mitre of the high priest in representation of Christ, our true high priest. IOW the average priest didn't wear a mitre. Every piece of a bishop's, priest's and deacons clothes represent the tradition passed on from the temple and the feasts of the Lord, as does everything in the worship service (divine liturgy). But a bishop is the highest rank of clergy.

And to answer his question,


In the mean time, have any of you heard of this correlation between the Revelation and the Temple services being presented before? It is a very exciting and compelling picture.

Yes, I've not only heard of it, but experience it regularly.:)
All the elements of the Revelation temple are present in the eastern churches. The two candlesticks, the Menorah, the altar, the robed priests, the oil lamps, the incense, the holy books, the saints (icons) etc. etc....... they are even built in the custom of the temple (narthex, nave...).

You could likely find some video's of the liturgies on the You Tube site. Just do a search on Eastern Orthodox litugy, or Syrian Orthodox liturgy (they still do the oldest forms).

It is a very exciting worship experience.:D

Kahtar
Jun 10th 2007, 03:42 AM
:hmm: That's quite interesting, Teke. I wasn't aware that they had incorporated those things in their service.
So, am I understanding you correctly that you feel the Apostle John was doing basically what your Biship now does, in regard to wearing the mitre?

Teke
Jun 10th 2007, 02:35 PM
:hmm: That's quite interesting, Teke. I wasn't aware that they had incorporated those things in their service.

Been that way for over 1,500 yrs and counting.;)


So, am I understanding you correctly that you feel the Apostle John was doing basically what your Biship now does, in regard to wearing the mitre?

It's not a matter of what he is doing. But an honor bestowed upon him by the church because of his righteousness in the eyes of the church. Just like the eastern church bestows the title of bishop on Paul, Peter and others, although they were never really bishops of any churches. They were faithful saints and martyrs for the faith. The church doesn't diminish these facts, but upholds them as righteous.

The liturgical aspects of the worship service was developed over time. In the early church, the hours of prayer were done, and the Eucharist celebrated. Which is why to present date , that is the center of worship. Prayer and communion.

The more visual aspects came later, and are traditional parts which help to educate the faithful as well as bring them to a closer worship of God, which is not dependent on man. IOW we experience God thru worship.

In an eastern church, such as Orthodoxy, when you enter the church, you've entered heaven with the saints (you must literally be of this mindset, and leave the world behind). Some older Orthodox still hold to the practice of not allowing the catechumen into the nave, instead they stand in the narthex, and they can only stay for the prayers, but then must leave before the Eucharist is celebrated.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 10th 2007, 08:01 PM
Hello Teke,

I believe Talmidim is referring to symbolism that in no way takes anything away from the things used in your Eastern worship. I believe talmidim has been ill which is why he hasn't replied to your initial question. Let's not skew this discussion into one on Eastern Orthodoxy, as I am sure that is not the intent of the OP. Let's just give talmidim time to feel better so he can begin posting again.

God Bless!

Teke
Jun 10th 2007, 10:28 PM
Hello Teke,

I believe Talmidim is referring to symbolism that in no way takes anything away from the things used in your Eastern worship. I believe talmidim has been ill which is why he hasn't replied to your initial question. Let's not skew this discussion into one on Eastern Orthodoxy, as I am sure that is not the intent of the OP. Let's just give talmidim time to feel better so he can begin posting again.

God Bless!

Studyin, I didn't make any sort of polemic EO statement. I gave Talmidim a historical reference. Whether I am EO or not, doesn't change historical facts.
Talmidim has specifically referenced historical church documents (letters).
My approach is in a historical context. There is no need for guess work if done in the historical context.

I will withdraw until Talmidim decides when and if he/she will reply.

OneStep
Jun 12th 2007, 11:35 PM
The Bishop of Ephesus is quoted in a letter as saying the Apostle John had, "put off the Mitre". He made another reference to the breastplate later in the same letter and seemed to imply that John was somehow associated with the High Priesthood. This would seem to confirm the account of how John was allowed into the High Priests mansion during the examination of Jesus and later gained admission for Peter into the courtyard. I am fairly sure attendance to an event of this nature (extraordinary as it was), would have been restricted to the Aaronic and Levitical priesthoods, household servants and Temple guards. If this line of inquiry is valid, and John was indeed raised in a family where he was trained from childhood for the High Priesthood, then it would explain his entry into this event. So too would it offer a whole new perspective to the writings of St. John.


I had thought that John WAS of the lineage of Aaron, and was the last of that line that carried the priestshood. He transferred the priesthood to Jesus at the Jordan Baptism. Mary, the Mother of Jesus was also the of the lineage of Aaron, therefore the transfer was, by law, fulfilled.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 13th 2007, 10:25 AM
I had thought that John WAS of the lineage of Aaron, and was the last of that line that carried the priestshood. He transferred the priesthood to Jesus at the Jordan Baptism. Mary, the Mother of Jesus was also the of the lineage of Aaron, therefore the transfer was, by law, fulfilled.I don't think there needed to be any transfer. Yeshua is a priest in the order of Melchizedek, who was a priest before God even before Aaron. As you mention, legally with Mary having ties to both the lines of David and Aaron, He was both a Priest and King. My point is simply that God does not lie and He told Aaron this:

Numbers 10:8 - The sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow the trumpets; and these shall be to you as an ordinance forever throughout your generations.

Forever is not forever until. I believe there will always be those of Aaron's lineage that blow the shofar to YHWH. Of those that are, more and more are coming to faith in Yeshua as Messiah, but one has nothing to do with each other. God is always faithful and true. Just as He gave Ishmael the promise that he would be the father of great nations, so he has promised Aaron the levitical priesthood. Does that in any way take away the fact that all who have come to faith in Yeshua as Savior are now kings and priests before God? No, one does not take away from the other.

God Bless!

P.S. Let's all pray that Talmidim feel better soon.

Kahtar
Jul 30th 2007, 07:01 PM
So Talmidim, how are you doing? Better I hope.:)
I'm hoping you'll provide us the second portion of this study, also (hint hint:D).

talmidim
Jul 31st 2007, 03:52 AM
So Talmidim, how are you doing? Better I hope.:)
I'm hoping you'll provide us the second portion of this study, also (hint hint:D).Shalom Kahtar My Old Friend,

Yes I am doing a little better. Thanks for your good wishes and prayers. Three or four months flat on your back can really take it out of you. Gave a teaching/sermon the other day and slept for hours after. Whew, still a bit weak...

I have started compiling the material for this study again but it is slow going. Thank you ALL for your patience...

To Teke: My Greek is questionable at best, but it was explained to me that the word used for Mitre in that letter referred to the inscribed headband of the Hebrew High Priest rather than the stylized headdress of an Orthodox Bishop. I don't have anything to back that up at present, but it is enough for me that Polycrates reported thus about John the Apostle before the formalization of Eastern Orthodoxy. I personally do not think John would have been renouncing the role of leadership (Bishop) in the congregation that he led, do you? I believe that the author meant something else.

To OneStep: While we know certain things about the linage of the Master we have but hints concerning His cousin, John the Baptist. We know even less about John the Apostle (the youngest of the Apostles), about which the letter of Polycrates was the subject. What I am trying to do is construct a circumstantial case for the interpretation of the Revelation of our Master Yeshua, as relayed by John the Apostle using the symbolic imagery of the Temple worship and practices of the Aaronic and Levitical priesthood on the day of Atonement. This is an examination of the preparation phase for the season of the Fall Feasts. These include the days of teshuvah, (repentance), the Feast of Trumpets and the Days of Awe (that time between Trumpets and Atonement when Jews believe that the Books are opened in Heaven). I am also examining the preparations of the Priests and the order of service for the morning and evening services in the Temple on the Day of Atonement. I believe these things to be key to successfully understanding the Book of the Revelation.

I like what S2S said about the High Priesthood of the Messiah. But what I was alluding to was a circumstantial case for John the Apostle to have been of the Zaddokim, the rightful familial successors to the Aaronic High Priesthood on Earth.

While examining the relationship between the Seven Candlesticks (menorah) and the seven churches of the Revelation, I found some interesting clues. I'll try to share them in my next post.

talmidim
Jul 31st 2007, 08:03 AM
Shalom Everyone,

OK here is the latest installment on this topic. I hope you enjoy what I have found.

There have been more studies based on the menorah than I can recall. And I am sure that some of you will have material to contribute. I am simply sharing some of what I have recently observed about the Seven Churches and tie that to the Seven Candlesticks. This is the parallel that the Messiah made: Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

This portion of the study has the potential to wander way off course, so help me if you can to stay on track. Thanks in advance for that. It is the intent of this post to connect the symbolic dots between the churches and the menorah via the priestly service in the Temple in preparation for the Day of Atonement.

The study that I did on light and the Hebraic idioms that utilize the expression all seem to come back to the "fear of the Lord" and a revelation of His glory on some level. Those who walk in the light have it. Those that walk in darkness do not. And this rule of interpretation seems to hold true here too for the Churches. I think that relating what is said to the congregations in the Revelation is a little misleading though, because all of the praises and rebukes of the Lord apply to individuals within those congregations as well as the Churches as a whole. Further it appears that the names of the Churches indicate situational trials that the believers are undergoing within the congregation, so there is a circumstantial element to examine here too.

In preparation for the morning service, a priest serviced the menorah. On the Day of Atonement this was usually performed by the High Priest. Two of the lamps (on a rotating basis) would remain lit (for illumination in the Holy Place) while the remaining five would be cleaned, re-wicked (with wicks made from the holy garments of the priests), refilled with fresh holy oil and finally reignited. The center lamp (the Shamash or Servant Lamp) was used to relight all of the other lamps and when it had to be reignited, only a burning coal from the Altar of Sacrifice could be used. Five of the seven Churches were rebuked in one manner or another. There is a comparison to be made to the warning about removing the candlestick (the Church) from Ephesus, and the removing of the candlestick in the preparation of the menorah. This symbolism connects the first dot between church and the menorah via the priestly service.

There are many more parallels to draw, but before I get too far ahead of myself I wanted to show you the situational aspect of this portion of this study. I have added emphasis to the names of those Churches that had no rebuke in a simple chart that displays the meanings of the name of the Churches. This gets interesting when you see what the name means and the whys and hows of the rebuke. It also adds a little flavor to the relationships I am trying to draw:

NAME MEANING
Ephesus.........Desirable
Smyrna...........Myrrh
Pergamos.......Height; Elevation
Thyatira..........a perfume; Sacrifice of Labor
Sardis............Prince of Joy
Philadelphia....Love of a Brother
Laodicea........Just People; justice of the people

Allow me to jump to the last Church (Laodicea) first. The Lord said: Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:Laodicea means "Just People" or "justice of the people", but the Lord does not consider them so just. When we rely on our own judgment and justice we fall well short of the glory of the Father. But it was these five words I bolded that caught my attention. I will for a time concentrate on the Churches that had been rebuked and return to the other two in a moment.

Ephesus means "Desirable" but they had lost their first love and were instead, wretched.
Strong's G5005 ταλαίπωρος talaipōros tal-ah'ee-po-ros From the base of G5007 and a derivative of the base of G3984; enduring trial, that is, miserable: - wretched.They had borne and labored and done all these "works" to make themselves desirable but lost the first love. They had works without faith. Basically they belonged to a club that did good things. Yeshua wasn't "in it". And He, "that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks" was prepared to remove their candlestick. They were no longer "desirable".

Pergamos means "Height; Elevation" and look what He, "which hath the sharp sword with two edges", said. It was the place of residence of Satan, the one that would have elevated his throne above the Most High! He rebuked them for, "the doctrine of Balaam," and "the doctrine of the Nicolaitans". The first is a doctrine that undermines the teachings of the Lord and the second falsely elevates men and their traditions. It places them in authority over His children and His Word. These He calls miserable.
Strong's G1652 ἐλεεινός eleeinos el-eh-i-nos' From G1656; pitiable: - miserable.And we know from His word that those who elevate themselves will be brought low. In this case by the sword that proceeds from His mouth.

Thyatira is the name of a perfume called "Sacrifice of Labor". Here says the , "Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass", "thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication". Many of the ancient MMS, read την γυναικα σου Ιεζαβηλ, Thy Wife Jezebel; which intimates that this woman was the wife of the bishop of the Church. I have some rather controversial views on this so I will leave them be. But the word on my list that corresponds to this Church is poor.
Strong's G4434 πτωχός ptōchos pto-khos' From πτώσσω ptōssō (to crouch; akin to G4422 and the alternate of G4098); a beggar (as cringing), that is, pauper (strictly denoting absolute or public mendicancy, although also used in a qualified or relative sense; whereas G3993 properly means only straitened circumstances in private), literally (often as noun) or figuratively (distressed): - beggar (-ly), poor.This definition seems more indicative of a lack of sacrifice in this circumstance. Indeed, a willingness to let the status quo continue. Here is what He said:
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

Sardis means "Prince of Joy". And indeed it seems that they were celebrating their salvation before they crossed the finish line. Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Faith without works is... dead. It seems they were so secure in their "salvation" that they forgot His commandments. The next word on the list is blind.
Strong's G5185 τυφλός tuphlos toof-los' From G5187; opaque (as if smoky), that is, (by analogy) blind (physically or mentally): - blind. He tells them to be watchful. He says, "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."

It was the practice of the Chief Priest of the Watch to make irregular rounds in order to catch the priest that fell asleep on the night watches. Then He says,"He that overcometh, the same shall be
1) clothed in white raiment;
2) and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,
3) but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." There are a number of things that must occur before someone from a priestly line is declared a priest. It is not enough to be of the right family. The candidate must be free from certain physical, mental, emotional and moral defects. And he must be examined to prove that He knows the Torah and all of the requirements of his position. When all these requirements are met he is given a priestly garment, his name is written in a scroll of priest kept at the Temple and he is confessed as a priest by the Chief Priest before the Sanhedrin. Then and only then is he given full access to the Temple.

Laodicea means "Just People; justice of the people". Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; When we attempt to clothe ourselves in our own righteousness we are naked before the Lord.
Strong's G1131 γυμνός gumnos goom-nos' Of uncertain affinity; nude (absolutely or relatively, literally or figuratively): - naked.He is the faithful witness that sees all.

This next verse has an even more interesting link to the priesthood. Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. It was the custom of the priest in charge to come around and gently knock at the door of th inner chambers. All the priest were bare footed because they were on holy ground. And the Fall Feasts in the mountains of Jerusalem found the Temple to be cool, especially at night. It was not uncommon for the priests that were not required on the watch to gather in front of the fireplaces in these inner chambers. And some would fall asleep. So the gentle knock at the door was easy to miss unless there was someone paying attention. As a special reward and to honor those that stayed alert over their brethren, the priest in charge would bring some bread to share with those who answered.

And consider this: Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. If a priest was found sleeping at his post in the Temple, there was two punishments that might occur. He might be "beaten with many stripes" or the more shameful, he might awaken to find his clothes on fire! And the only way to stop the burning was to strip naked. Both of these usually happened in the presence of the other Temple guards.

Well dear ones, I am falling asleep at the keyboard so I will post on Smyrna and Philadelphia when I awaken. These are the two "Candlesticks" that kept burning while the others were refreshed and refilled with oil. So far, I see a clear connection to the earthly High Priest preparing the menorah for the Day of Atonement and Our High Priest Yeshua, preparing the churches for the ultimate fulfillment of this Feast.

So sleepy.., I know I missed a lot and may have made some major blunders, but I sure the gentle reader will point them out soon enough. Night all...

OneStep
Jul 31st 2007, 04:52 PM
I am happy to hear you are better and understand that rest is much needed.
I find your insight quite interesting and well thought.

The intentions, of all before us, were for our instruction and to connect the dots between all things is forever amazing. Every level of connecting and understanding is available for all.

I find your teaching a gift to all.

Shalom

Kahtar
Jul 31st 2007, 09:36 PM
Thank you for your effort, Talmidim. I'll digest this for a while.:)

talmidim
Aug 1st 2007, 12:35 AM
Shalom All,

I have been asked by a Sister to use a darker colored font because the other was difficult for her to see. Please tell me if this is sufficient to the task. If not I will change it.

These are the scriptures that relate to the two Churches that suffered no rebuke from the Master. They symbolically represent the two Candlesticks that kept burning while the others were "serviced" by our High Priest Yeshua.

If you will recall I found the names and their definitions compelling:

NAME MEANING
Ephesus.........Desirable
Smyrna...........Myrrh
Pergamos.......Height; Elevation
Thyatira..........a perfume; Sacrifice of Labor
Sardis............Prince of Joy
Philadelphia....Love of a Brother
Laodicea........Just People; justice of the people


Smyrna means Myrrh, one of the three gifts of the "Wise Men" to the newborn King. Each had a symbolic relationship to the offices of Prophet, Priest and King. Gold is symbolic of his kingship, frankincense of his priesthood, and myrrh of his office of Prophet and a prophetic symbol of His death (Myrrh being and embalming spice).
Myrrh is a red-brown resinous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resin) material, the dried sap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_sap) of the tree Commiphora myrrha, native to Somalia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia) and the eastern parts of Ethiopia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopia). The sap of a number of other Commiphora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commiphora) and Balsamodendron (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Balsamodendron&action=edit) species are also known as myrrh, including that from C. erythraea (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commiphora_erythraea&action=edit) (sometimes called East Indian myrrh), C. opobalsamum (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commiphora_opobalsamum&action=edit) and Balsamodendron kua (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Balsamodendron_kua&action=edit). Its name entered English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language) via the Ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek), μύρρα, which is probably of Semitic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic) origin. Myrrh is also applied to the potherb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potherb) Myrrhis odorata otherwise known as "Cicely (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicely)" or "Sweet Cicely (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_Cicely)".The sap is extracted from the bark of the tree by flogging. After the tree is flogged the sap bleeds from the wounds. All of these things are symbolic of His office here on earth and His prophesied death.


Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
This portion was about the part of His body that died, was buried and was resurrected and departed this office of prophet to take up His new office as High Priest.



Philadelphia means "Love of a Brother". And how symbolic is this? This speaks to the part of His body that He left here to keep His commandments. The Key of David speaks of the office to come, the King of Kings. And who are the other kings spoken of here? Those who overcome and receive crowns from His hand! Rev 1:6 says that we are make kings and priest unto God!

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

diffangle
Aug 1st 2007, 12:36 AM
Thank you Talmidim. :) YHWH bless. :hug:

Studyin'2Show
Aug 1st 2007, 02:18 AM
Thank you, my friend. I've had a rough day with all the power surges and with all that's been going on regarding this subforum I just don't have time to take all this in right now. But I have cut and pasted it so I can go through it tomorrow. After I have digested it, I will post any questions or comments.

Baruch HaShem!

talmidim
Aug 1st 2007, 03:00 AM
Thank you, my friend. I've had a rough day with all the power surges and with all that's been going on regarding this subforum I just don't have time to take all this in right now. But I have cut and pasted it so I can go through it tomorrow. After I have digested it, I will post any questions or comments.

Baruch HaShem!Thank you Dear Lady,

My condolences on the death of your electronics. I pray that it is just Adonai making room for bigger and better toys!

Studyin'2Show
Aug 1st 2007, 10:10 AM
Thank you Dear Lady,

My condolences on the death of your electronics. I pray that it is just Adonai making room for bigger and better toys!:lol: Thank you! We've already made a claim through the power company. We think they've found and fixed the problem. It wasn't the loss of the stuff but being unsure of what was going on that was the most frustrating. My mother and I laughed that the enemy was trying to fry us. Sometimes I think that just laughing at his antics is the best way to frustrate him! :D

God Bless!

talmidim
Aug 1st 2007, 11:13 PM
Hello again,

There is a shared theme of death and life in both of these Churches, Smyrna and Philadelphia. In Smyrna He talks of being dead and then alive. In Philadelphia He speaks of a door that no man can open or shut. To me this indicates the door between death and life, between the physical and the spiritual. This door that He was able to go through at the end of His earthly ministry as a Prophet, He has now made a way for His children to pass through. That door is the door to the Heavenly Temple.

There is much to comment on here. I think that I could go on for hours and indeed I have. But I am inviting everyone to comment on the symbolism that you see in these instructions to the Churches, and for that matter, the entire relationship between the Day of Atonement morning service and the symbolism found in the first five chapters of the Book of Revelation. A fresh set of eyes are definitely in order.

Studyin'2Show
Aug 2nd 2007, 02:04 AM
I am floored! There is so much there that I would never have picked up on. Just a question. How is the actual Temple menorah configured? The Chanukah menorah has a set of four candlesticks on each side of the Shamash candle, which makes it symmetrical. Does the Temple menorah have seven PLUS the Shamash or seven INCLUDING the Shamash? :hmm: Thanks!

Baruch Hashem!

talmidim
Aug 2nd 2007, 06:46 AM
I am floored! There is so much there that I would never have picked up on. Just a question. How is the actual Temple menorah configured? The Chanukah menorah has a set of four candlesticks on each side of the Shamash candle, which makes it symmetrical. Does the Temple menorah have seven PLUS the Shamash or seven INCLUDING the Shamash? :hmm: Thanks!

Baruch Hashem!Well, there is more I'm afraid. :D But for the time being I thought I would like some input concerning the premise.

The menorah has a total of seven. The nine candle Chanukah replica came much later.

Studyin'2Show
Aug 2nd 2007, 10:33 AM
Well, there is more I'm afraid. :D But for the time being I thought I would like some input concerning the premise.

The menorah has a total of seven. The nine candle Chanukah replica came much later.I know with the Chanukah menorah, the Shamash or servant candle represents Yeshua, in that it is the light that lights all the others. Would it not represent Him in the Temple menorah as well? I guess in this example since the High Priest symbolizes Him, the Shamash does not?

The premise seems to be spot on! Since they are supposed to burn perpetually are two candles left burning so just in case one goes out? This reminds me of when Elijah thinks he is the only one left serving YHWH but God says no because there are more. We are never left alone even though sometimes it may feel like it. :hmm: Yes, I like that symbolism.

God Bless!

Teke
Aug 2nd 2007, 05:41 PM
There is much to comment on here. I think that I could go on for hours and indeed I have. But I am inviting everyone to comment on the symbolism that you see in these instructions to the Churches, and for that matter, the entire relationship between the Day of Atonement morning service and the symbolism found in the first five chapters of the Book of Revelation. A fresh set of eyes are definitely in order.


You mean like this, in pertaining to Israel and it's history. ie. another comparison
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Seven Assemblies as a whole

1. Ephesus: the day of Israel's Espousals (Exodus. "Thy first love")
2. Smyrna: the period of Israel's Wanderings (Numbers. Days and Years)
3. Pergamos: the Wilderness Period (Numbers. "Balaam")
4. Thyatira: the period of Israel's Kings (1 and 2 Kings. Ahab and Jezebel)
5. Sardis: the period of Israel's Removal (1 and 2 Chronicles)
6. Philadelphia: the period of Judah's Kings (2 Chronicles and Isaiah)
7. Laodicea: the period of Judah's Removal (the Minor Prophets)

The Seven Assemblies and their Promises

1. Ephesus. "The Tree of Life" (Gen. 2)
2. Smyrna. "The Second Death" (Gen. 3)
3. Pergamos. "The Hidden Manna" (Exodus 16)
4. Thyatira. "The Morning Star" (Num. 24)
5. Sardis. Names Confessed (2 Sam. 23)
6. Philadelphia. The Temple (Sam. and Kings)
7. Laodicea. The Throne (Kings and Chronicles)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Or did you want to know the liturgical Christian practice with the candles that came from that ancient tradition.
All the candles are lit from the one. There is the menorah (seven) and the two (witnesses), there are also three others held in the hand of the priest, which blesses and is added to the others during the service. The three represent the Trinity of God. For a total of twelve, the number of government in scripture.
This is still the practice in the Syrian Christian churches of the east. Others from there vary according to their preference and understanding.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

So do you want to talk Israel history or historical candle use in liturgics. :saint:

talmidim
Aug 2nd 2007, 07:38 PM
You mean like this, in pertaining to Israel and it's history. ie. another comparison
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Seven Assemblies as a whole

1. Ephesus: the day of Israel's Espousals (Exodus. "Thy first love")
2. Smyrna: the period of Israel's Wanderings (Numbers. Days and Years)
3. Pergamos: the Wilderness Period (Numbers. "Balaam")
4. Thyatira: the period of Israel's Kings (1 and 2 Kings. Ahab and Jezebel)
5. Sardis: the period of Israel's Removal (1 and 2 Chronicles)
6. Philadelphia: the period of Judah's Kings (2 Chronicles and Isaiah)
7. Laodicea: the period of Judah's Removal (the Minor Prophets)

The Seven Assemblies and their Promises

1. Ephesus. "The Tree of Life" (Gen. 2)
2. Smyrna. "The Second Death" (Gen. 3)
3. Pergamos. "The Hidden Manna" (Exodus 16)
4. Thyatira. "The Morning Star" (Num. 24)
5. Sardis. Names Confessed (2 Sam. 23)
6. Philadelphia. The Temple (Sam. and Kings)
7. Laodicea. The Throne (Kings and Chronicles)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Or did you want to know the liturgical Christian practice with the candles that came from that ancient tradition.
All the candles are lit from the one. There is the menorah (seven) and the two (witnesses), there are also three others held in the hand of the priest, which blesses and is added to the others during the service. The three represent the Trinity of God. For a total of twelve, the number of government in scripture.
This is still the practice in the Syrian Christian churches of the east. Others from there vary according to their preference and understanding.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

So do you want to talk Israel history or historical candle use in liturgics. :saint:Shalom Shalom Teke,

Thanks for the input on the Seven Churches. There are many takes on the symbolism and potential relationships that can be found by comparing these Revelation scriptures with others. And I have avoided some comparisons because they were slightly off-topic and I am already very long winded in this exposition. :blush:

The second set you posted is very compelling for this purpose though, in that it portrays end time promises which coincides with the prophetic Day of the Lord aspect of the Day of Atonement. I was wondering, would you like to do a scripture by scripture, symbol by symbol explanation for the reader? You could draw the parallel between the symbol that the Messiah used to identify Himself to the individual church and the nature of the symbol and its promise (if you wanted).
:D
I am not familiar enough with the first set of seven you offered to really comment. If they are applicable to this premise (the symbolism of the Temple service as it relates to the Day of Atonement in the Heavenly Temple) then by all means, bring it on! :pp

talmidim
Aug 2nd 2007, 07:55 PM
I know with the Chanukah menorah, the Shamash or servant candle represents Yeshua, in that it is the light that lights all the others. Would it not represent Him in the Temple menorah as well? I guess in this example since the High Priest symbolizes Him, the Shamash does not?

The premise seems to be spot on! Since they are supposed to burn perpetually are two candles left burning so just in case one goes out? This reminds me of when Elijah thinks he is the only one left serving YHWH but God says no because there are more. We are never left alone even though sometimes it may feel like it. :hmm: Yes, I like that symbolism.

God Bless!Good question about the two lamps burning. I don't have any immediate response to that. Perhaps so.

But the parallel I was trying to draw was between the maintenance and service of the menorah by the High Priest prior to the Temple service, and the symbolism found in Yeshua's praise and rebukes to the Churches - His menorah that He left burning here on earth. He is obviously trying to prepare them for judgment.

I cannot tell you how many times in my walk that I have heard comments about being cleaned in my heart and refilled with the Holy Spirit (clean heart, right spirit?) in preparation of going into His presence. Then I see the same symbolism here in preparation for the Day of the Lord which is inextricably linked prophetically to the Day of Atonement in the Heavenly Temple. The coincidence is just too compelling to ignore.

Kahtar
Aug 2nd 2007, 08:05 PM
But the parallel I was trying to draw was between the maintenance and service of the menorah by the High Priest prior to the Temple service, and the symbolism found in Yeshua's praise and rebukes to the Churches - His menorah that He left burning here on earth. He is obviously trying to prepare them for judgment.

I cannot tell you how many times in my walk that I have heard comments about being cleaned in my heart and refilled with the Holy Spirit (clean heart, right spirit?) in preparation of going into His presence. Then I see the same symbolism here in preparation for the Day of the Lord which is inextricably linked prophetically to the Day of Atonement in the Heavenly Temple. The coincidence is just too compelling to ignore.
This all brings to my mind the parable of the ten virgins. All ten were 'light-bearers', but only five were 'filled with oil', prepared and ready to go in. It speaks the same thing, I believe, that you alluded to, ie clean heart and filled with the Spirit, that our light may shine brightly.
It encourages us, I think, to examine ourselves, our 'wicks' if you will, and trim away all that would cause our light to be dim.

talmidim
Aug 2nd 2007, 09:23 PM
This all brings to my mind the parable of the ten virgins. All ten were 'light-bearers', but only five were 'filled with oil', prepared and ready to go in. It speaks the same thing, I believe, that you alluded to, ie clean heart and filled with the Spirit, that our light may shine brightly.
It encourages us, I think, to examine ourselves, our 'wicks' if you will, and trim away all that would cause our light to be dim.Absolutely Kahtar,

And thanks! The infilling of the Holy Spirit is related to these matters in the message to Nicodemus too. And there is no doubt that this parable of the Virgins speaks of the Day for the Lord. It is a direct continuation of the exposition the Master started in Mat 24 on that very subject. I touched on some of these points in Post 29, found HERE: http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1265492&postcount=29

Let me know what you think. Your observations are always a welcome blessing. Keep 'em coming!

Studyin'2Show
Aug 2nd 2007, 10:22 PM
Do you feel the two candles that in relation to the ritual are burning now, represent two types of believers that are still filled with the Holy Spirit while the other five await refilling? Do you believe that what is spoken by the prophet Joel is represented by the 5 dormant candles being refilled and relit?

Joel 2:28-29
28 “ And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

Could this be the High Priest (Yeshua) relighting the wicks? :hmm: If so, do you think that time is upon us?

Baruch Hashem Adonai (Blessed be the Name of the LORD)!

Teke
Aug 2nd 2007, 11:15 PM
Shalom Shalom Teke,

Thanks for the input on the Seven Churches. There are many takes on the symbolism and potential relationships that can be found by comparing these Revelation scriptures with others. And I have avoided some comparisons because they were slightly off-topic and I am already very long winded in this exposition. :blush:

The second set you posted is very compelling for this purpose though, in that it portrays end time promises which coincides with the prophetic Day of the Lord aspect of the Day of Atonement. I was wondering, would you like to do a scripture by scripture, symbol by symbol explanation for the reader? You could draw the parallel between the symbol that the Messiah used to identify Himself to the individual church and the nature of the symbol and its promise (if you wanted).
:D
I am not familiar enough with the first set of seven you offered to really comment. If they are applicable to this premise (the symbolism of the Temple service as it relates to the Day of Atonement in the Heavenly Temple) then by all means, bring it on! :pp


Well, I believe many people miss the beginning of Revelation and it's meaning. The beginning is actually the end of the service. The seven churches and the rest is the interpetation, which all pertains to Israel and the proclamation in the beginning, the Advent.

The structure of the first few verses are, the Advent, testimony concerning the Advent, benediction, ascription, salutation, and interpretation.

The seven lamp stands point us to the one (seven fold) golden lamp-stand of the tabernacle. Ex. 25: 31, 32, 37; 37:23, Heb. 9: 2. Then, there was but one lamp-stand: here, there are seven. There, Israel was one, and was gathered as one nation: here, that nation is scattered and in its Dispersion. Same fact also explains the absence of the table of Shew-bread.
Later the church will come to understand the Bread of Life better in Jesus Christ. As the seven is also representive of all the world (seven continents) and that it is a spiritual working of God in doing so.
IOW the symbolism is all grounded in reality (history, worship, King of Kings....), an eternal reality.:)

talmidim
Aug 2nd 2007, 11:24 PM
Do you feel the two candles that in relation to the ritual are burning now, represent two types of believers that are still filled with the Holy Spirit while the other five await refilling? Do you believe that what is spoken by the prophet Joel is represented by the 5 dormant candles being refilled and relit?

Joel 2:28-29
28 “ And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

Could this be the High Priest (Yeshua) relighting the wicks? :hmm: If so, do you think that time is upon us?

Baruch Hashem Adonai (Blessed be the Name of the LORD)!Again, very good questions S2S. And in principle I would say yes. But I am not sure I want to get into who those churches represent. That is one where everybody would likely scream, "Me, me!!" :rofl:

I am not sure. There are some that believe that Joel was fulfilled in the time of the Apostles and I agree. But I also remember the prophetic implications of the former and the latter rains. The time of the Apostles was the time of the former rains and the first harvest. But there is a latter rain and another harvest too. As a matter of fact, there are three harvests. And if the scriptures are to be believed, there will be bodily three resurrections. The first was witnessed when the Lord was resurrected. The second will be in the Day of the Lord. The third will be after the millennial reign when all are called before the White Throne Judgment. But if I know the rains as they are revealed in scripture and throughout the history of Israel, I must concede that the latter rains are longer, more intense and continue through to the end of the agricultural year. I am sure that His Spirit continues with His Son and His Bride until the end of the age and beyond, so it seems to fit...

Does this seem a midrash that conforms to the P'shat first and then to the Remez and the Sod to you? Anyone?

talmidim
Aug 3rd 2007, 12:49 AM
Well, I believe many people miss the beginning of Revelation and it's meaning. The beginning is actually the end of the service. The seven churches and the rest is the interpetation, which all pertains to Israel and the proclamation in the beginning, the Advent.

The structure of the first few verses are, the Advent, testimony concerning the Advent, benediction, ascription, salutation, and interpretation.

The seven lamp stands point us to the one (seven fold) golden lamp-stand of the tabernacle. Ex. 25: 31, 32, 37; 37:23, Heb. 9: 2. Then, there was but one lamp-stand: here, there are seven. There, Israel was one, and was gathered as one nation: here, that nation is scattered and in its Dispersion. Same fact also explains the absence of the table of Shew-bread.
Later the church will come to understand the Bread of Life better in Jesus Christ. As the seven is also representive of all the world (seven continents) and that it is a spiritual working of God in doing so.
IOW the symbolism is all grounded in reality (history, worship, King of Kings....), an eternal reality.:)Very interesting analysis Teke, but by no means conclusive. I find it unlikely that John would be writing his Epistles to the Seven Churches based on the order of service of the EO church as opposed to that of the Temple service in the context of the Fall Feasts.

The context of the vision is described as what was, is and was to come, so any comparisons to the condition of the Jews or the Church, now or then, seems inconclusive to me. Also if the Jews and Gentile believers were already in Heaven for this service as the resurrection and rapture would explain, that too would account for the Table of Shewbread being absent. And the form of this letter and its unique attributes, closely follows the format of other Epistles of John as attested to by Dr, Church and other authorities. But rather than debate all these points, I would like to remain with the original premise for the time being. Thank you for sharing your views on this topic, but could you elaborate on your post about the Seven Churches for us? That seems a little more on point.

Be Blessed

Teke
Aug 3rd 2007, 01:34 AM
Very interesting analysis Teke, but by no means conclusive. I find it unlikely that John would be writing his Epistles to the Seven Churches based on the order of service of the EO church as opposed to that of the Temple service in the context of the Fall Feasts.

:confused:confused Who said anything about EO service???


The context of the vision is described as what was, is and was to come,

What "was, is and was to come" is eternal. Every prophetic reference is to Israels history and it's culmination in Messiah.


so any comparisons to the condition of the Jews or the Church, now or then, seems inconclusive to me. Also if the Jews and Gentile believers were already in Heaven for this service as the resurrection and rapture would explain, that too would account for the Table of Shewbread being absent.

Have no idea what you mean.........


And the form of this letter and its unique attributes, closely follows the format of other Epistles of John as attested to by Dr, Church and other authorities. But rather than debate all these points, I would like to remain with the original premise for the time being.

What is the original premise?


Thank you for sharing your views on this topic, but could you elaborate on your post about the Seven Churches for us? That seems a little more on point.

Be Blessed




I'll elaborate more tomorrow, although I've given the scripture refs with the promises already.;)

talmidim
Aug 3rd 2007, 04:38 AM
OK Teke, I seem to have misunderstood some, if not most of the things in your post, so I will start over. The following is what I wrote in the first post (in part):
Recently, I was privileged to hear a presentation showing all of the elements of the Feast of Yom Kippur Temple service, that is both the morning and evening services, represented in the book of the Revelation. To someone steeped in the culture of first century Temple worship, most of the references would be apparent. And even more so to someone attached to the Temple Priesthood. The case was fairly well made and I was excited to examine some of the symbolism and scriptural references for myself.I have since posted many items in support of this perspective, that the symbolism in Revelation may indeed be related to the Yom Kippur Temple service. The most recent of which was a series of posts in support of a parallel between how the High Priest serviced the menorah and how Yeshua prepared the Churches for the Day of the Lord. THAT is what I was seeking comments on.

You responded with a great post on the Seven Churches but when I invited you to explain in detail, you eventually declined implying that the correlations are self evident. Then you said:
Well, I believe many people miss the beginning of Revelation and it's meaning. The beginning is actually the end of the service.Which service? An EO service? An Orthodox Jewish service? The Temple service? If so, the Day of Atonement?


The seven churches and the rest is the interpetation, which all pertains to Israel and the proclamation in the beginning, the Advent. You state that the admonitions to these Churches in Asia Minor all pertain to Israel and the Advent of the Lord. Ok, I'll bite. HOW do these things pertain to Israel and the first coming of the Lord? And HOW does this apply to the OP?


The structure of the first few verses are, the Advent, testimony concerning the Advent, benediction, ascription, salutation, and interpretation. Please explain this sentence. I presume you are addressing the form of the document but I am not sure the relevance you are placing on this observation.


The seven lamp stands point us to the one (seven fold) golden lamp-stand of the tabernacle. Ex. 25: 31, 32, 37; 37:23, Heb. 9: 2. Then, there was but one lamp-stand: here, there are seven. There, Israel was one, and was gathered as one nation: here, that nation is scattered and in its Dispersion. For me, the seven lampstands in Revelation speak of the seven removable lamps that are a part of the one menorah that resides in the Holy Place. Hence the reference in Rev 2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. This is posted HERE: http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1337446&postcount=51


Same fact also explains the absence of the table of Shew-bread. Do you mean that Israel is scattered so the Table of Showbread would be absent for the Temple service on the Day of the Lord? Please explain.


Later the church will come to understand the Bread of Life better in Jesus Christ. As the seven is also representive of all the world (seven continents) and that it is a spiritual working of God in doing so.
IOW the symbolism is all grounded in reality (history, worship, King of Kings....), an eternal reality.:)Could you please show us how this relates to what the Lord was telling the Churches in Asia Minor? I obviously don't understand what you mean here.

I am sorry to make you repeat yourself but I really am having trouble understanding your post. Thanks for your efforts. I'm sure that once we understand each other we will both profit from the exchange.

Be Blessed.

Teke
Aug 3rd 2007, 08:52 PM
OK Teke, I seem to have misunderstood some, if not most of the things in your post, so I will start over. The following is what I wrote in the first post (in part):I have since posted many items in support of this perspective, that the symbolism in Revelation may indeed be related to the Yom Kippur Temple service. The most recent of which was a series of posts in support of a parallel between how the High Priest serviced the menorah and how Yeshua prepared the Churches for the Day of the Lord. THAT is what I was seeking comments on.



Never mind Talmidim. I don't think we will agree on some things. As your view is looking toward a future fulfillment and mine is a present reality.
I'm not sure if it is a Yom Kippur service in particular. I would only go so far as to say it relates the Tamid and Shewbread in liturgical and ontological concepts. For me that is going to relate and be represented by Christ. For you, I do not know what it represents.:)

talmidim
Aug 3rd 2007, 10:48 PM
Never mind Talmidim. I don't think we will agree on some things. As your view is looking toward a future fulfillment and mine is a present reality.
I'm not sure if it is a Yom Kippur service in particular. I would only go so far as to say it relates the Tamid and Shewbread in liturgical and ontological concepts. For me that is going to relate and be represented by Christ. For you, I do not know what it represents.:)Thank you Teke, for your efforts. After what you have said here, I can see how we might be missing each other. Still your contribution in the first post on the Seven Churches is very intriguing. I will spend a little time investigating it further.

Shabbat Shalom

jeffcraig
Mar 12th 2017, 03:07 AM
And how sad to think that we as Christian believers have contributed to the blindness of the Jews with our own misled doctrines.

BHS

Not for those who have sought from YHWH the TRUTH, UNDERSTANDING in Y'SHUA, by HIS teaching as HE says in HIS WORD.

p.s. for those who don't notice, this thread is from a few years ago, but not as long ago as the book of EPHESIANS.