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ranchgirl
May 2nd 2007, 02:49 AM
Last week I was having a bible study with a friend and before we wrapped it it up I said "All I am waiting for now is the 2 witnesses to appear and I will have no doubt that the time of the END is near". About 10 minutes after my friend left these two guys came to my door and said, "We are hear to spread the news that Jesus is coming soon, so get your house in order" well I jokingly asked "Are you Enoch and Elijah?" There names were accually Dale and Ted. I invited them in and asked if they were Jehovah's Witnesses (that denomination is the only ones that have ever knocked on my door) they were not, so I tried every way in the world to find out their religion so that I could "put them in a box" so to speak but they would have none of it. They said they were just modern day disciples that were spreading the good news of Jesus and His eminant return. After they left I got my Bible back out and read scripture that the "spirit of Elijah" would be here in the last days. Will it be the 2 witnesses literally? The spirit of the 2 witnesses? Or both? Does anyone have any thoughts on this or further study on it? It sure made me wonder if the Spirit of Elijah visited my house because the timing was such a coincidence.

Ranchgirl

ShirleyFord
May 2nd 2007, 03:36 AM
Last week I was having a bible study with a friend and before we wrapped it it up I said "All I am waiting for now is the 2 witnesses to appear and I will have no doubt that the time of the END is near". About 10 minutes after my friend left these two guys came to my door and said, "We are hear to spread the news that Jesus is coming soon, so get your house in order" well I jokingly asked "Are you Enoch and Elijah?" There names were accually Dale and Ted. I invited them in and asked if they were Jehovah's Witnesses (that denomination is the only ones that have ever knocked on my door) they were not, so I tried every way in the world to find out their religion so that I could "put them in a box" so to speak but they would have none of it. They said they were just modern day disciples that were spreading the good news of Jesus and His eminant return. After they left I got my Bible back out and read scripture that the "spirit of Elijah" would be here in the last days. Will it be the 2 witnesses literally? The spirit of the 2 witnesses? Or both? Does anyone have any thoughts on this or further study on it? It sure made me wonder if the Spirit of Elijah visited my house because the timing was such a coincidence.

Ranchgirl

John the Baptist already came in the spirit of Elijah.

Luke 1:13-17 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias (Elijah), to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Where did you find the Scripture that said that "the 'spirit of Elijah' would be here in the last days."

No doubt, these two men that visited you came in the Spirit of God, but not in the spirit of Elijah.

Shirley

truthistheword
May 2nd 2007, 04:46 AM
I think the times we're in are definitely as the days of Noah, and most anyone who believes, has faith, and studies the word can see the signs. Those that don't can't see the signs. I stopped believing in coincidences a long time ago, and I've had many strange things happen to me as well that I know God brought before me. So yes I believe those were your 2 witnesses.

God bless you,
Truthistheword



Last week I was having a bible study with a friend and before we wrapped it it up I said "All I am waiting for now is the 2 witnesses to appear and I will have no doubt that the time of the END is near". About 10 minutes after my friend left these two guys came to my door and said, "We are hear to spread the news that Jesus is coming soon, so get your house in order" well I jokingly asked "Are you Enoch and Elijah?" There names were accually Dale and Ted. I invited them in and asked if they were Jehovah's Witnesses (that denomination is the only ones that have ever knocked on my door) they were not, so I tried every way in the world to find out their religion so that I could "put them in a box" so to speak but they would have none of it. They said they were just modern day disciples that were spreading the good news of Jesus and His eminant return. After they left I got my Bible back out and read scripture that the "spirit of Elijah" would be here in the last days. Will it be the 2 witnesses literally? The spirit of the 2 witnesses? Or both? Does anyone have any thoughts on this or further study on it? It sure made me wonder if the Spirit of Elijah visited my house because the timing was such a coincidence.

Ranchgirl

skc53
May 2nd 2007, 09:48 AM
From my understanding the 2 witnessess are to be at the wailing wall during the tribulation..........;)

Prodigal Daughter
May 2nd 2007, 12:16 PM
I've always understood it the same way that skc53 does; the witnesses will be here in human form themselves, but will have the powers of God with them for when they are witnessing to the last of those who have never heard the Word.

Correct me if Im wrong though, but this will be post-rapture.

ranchgirl
May 2nd 2007, 02:28 PM
I think the times we're in are definitely as the days of Noah, and most anyone who believes, has faith, and studies the word can see the signs. Those that don't can't see the signs. I stopped believing in coincidences a long time ago, and I've had many strange things happen to me as well that I know God brought before me. So yes I believe those were your 2 witnesses.

God bless you,
Truthistheword

Your are right, "coincidence" was probably the wrong word. God did send them I believe, because they left me with more inspiration than ever to get into the word and study. The Bible has become more exciting to me than it ever has and I just do not get tired of reading and learning. I am so excited about the work that God is doing! I can feel deep in my spirit that God is uniting a body of believers that cross all denominational lines with a common goal to LOVE ONE ANOTHER.:pp

Midwest Bob
May 2nd 2007, 02:39 PM
Revelation 11:3: And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Romans 11:24 For if thou [the Gentiles] wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree [the Jews]: how much more shall these [the Jews], which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Job 8:8 For enquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers: 9 (For we [are but of] yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth [are] a shadow:)

Matthew Henry: "Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles ... "

Isaac Newton: "... God gives power to his two Witnesses, and they prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days clothed in sackcloth. They are called the two Olive-trees, with relation to the two Olive-trees, which in Zechary's vision, chap. 4 stand on either side of the golden candlestick to supply the lamps with oil: and Olive-trees, according to the Apostle Paul, represent Churches, Rom. 11. .... They are also called the two candlesticks; which in this Prophecy signify Churches, the seven Churches of Asia being represented by seven candlesticks...." - Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John

Jamieson Faucett and Brown "... I think the twofold Church, Jewish and Gentile, may be meant by the two candlesticks represented by the two witnesses ... "

Christians and Jews were exiled from the Holy Land by Islamization. By the mid 1800s Israel was a virtually deserted desolate wasteland.

Israel became independent in 1948, returning from the wilderness of the nations (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#revelation_ 1260_days) after more than 2500 years. 1948 - 1260 = 688. A quick Yahoo search (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=688+dome+of+the+rock&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8) reveals that this was the founding year of the Dome of the Rock - the abomination of desolation (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#daniel_1290 _days). God's symbol in prophecy for Islam as the central subject of the "time of the end".

Quoting from "The False Prophet (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_false_prophet.htm)": "In 1569, the great Anabaptist theologian, Thieleman van Braght, wrote the following in Martyrs Mirror, pages 21-24: 'a thousand two hundred and threescore days, which reckoned according to prophetic language means as many years… let it be reckoned as it may, say we, as a very long period of time.'

Two hundred years later, Matthew Henry, in his 'Commentary of the Whole Bible', came to the same conclusion (Vol VI, page 1157 column 1, para. 2): "….if the beginning of that interval could be ascertained, this number of prophetic days, taking a day for a year, would give us a prospect of when the end might be."

Also Jamison, Faucett & Brown commentary - "..... in the wilderness 'a thousand two hundred and threescore days.' In the wider sense, we may either adopt the year-day theory of 1260 years..."

We have a big advantage over these guys now that 1948 has passed. We can understand many verses both mathematically as well as textually, in a way that has never been possible before this "time of the end".

Romulus
May 2nd 2007, 02:54 PM
Last week I was having a bible study with a friend and before we wrapped it it up I said "All I am waiting for now is the 2 witnesses to appear and I will have no doubt that the time of the END is near". About 10 minutes after my friend left these two guys came to my door and said, "We are hear to spread the news that Jesus is coming soon, so get your house in order" well I jokingly asked "Are you Enoch and Elijah?" There names were accually Dale and Ted. I invited them in and asked if they were Jehovah's Witnesses (that denomination is the only ones that have ever knocked on my door) they were not, so I tried every way in the world to find out their religion so that I could "put them in a box" so to speak but they would have none of it. They said they were just modern day disciples that were spreading the good news of Jesus and His eminant return. After they left I got my Bible back out and read scripture that the "spirit of Elijah" would be here in the last days. Will it be the 2 witnesses literally? The spirit of the 2 witnesses? Or both? Does anyone have any thoughts on this or further study on it? It sure made me wonder if the Spirit of Elijah visited my house because the timing was such a coincidence.

Ranchgirl

Revelation is a book of alot of symbols. Many have believed in a physical appearance of these witnesses during the end of days. I believe that the two witnesses were actually Moses and Elijah representing the law and the prophets. Here is the scripture:

Revelation 11

The Two Witnesses

1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." 4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
13At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

Given the time frame in Revelation 1, I cannot put the two witnesses into the 21st Century but in the 1st century. The beginning of chapter 11 shows that John was to measure the temple of God. This states that the temple was still standing and I believe that this was the Herodian temple, again keeping Revelation with the audience that heard it. When you read the scripture you will see that the gentiles will trample the holy city (Jerusalem) for 42 months and the witnesses will prophecy for 1260 days. This time period is 3 1/2 years. The trampling is exactly what happened when the Roman army led by Titus surrounded the city and eventually destroyed it in 70 A.D. The time period is the exact time it took from the surrounding of the city and to it's destruction. Again, taking the audience relevance seriously.

As I stated before the two witnesses represent Moses and Elijah or the law and the prophets. If you notice the powers that they have do correspond with what Moses (Water into Blood, and Plagues) and Elijah (No rain, Fire from heaven) did in the Old Testament. The two witnesses I believe represented the witness against Israel of their rejection of Christ. The Old Testament or the Old Covenant's very purpose was to lead to our Lord Jesus. They rejected their messiah and the Law and the Prophets was testifying against Israel, in their rejection. It was also the last chance Israel (1st Century Only) had to turn to Christ before it would be destroyed in 70 A.D. The Beast which is Christ's enemy seemed to have triumphed as the witnesses lay dead in the streets as Israel bowed before it and not what the Law and the Prophets were pointing to, Christ. The city (Jerusalem) rejoiced now that the witnesses against them were seemingly dead. Their going to heaven and part of the city being destroyed seems to symbolize Christ's coming in judgement against the city that rejected Him.

Also, remember the Transfiguration where Christ was joined by Moses and Elijah. Here we have a wonderful representation of the Old Covenant, Moses and Elijah and the New Covenant, Jesus. I think a great interpretation here is the same point, that Moses and Elijah were pointing towards Christ. This meeting also shows the confirming of the Old Covenant by Christ. How would this show that point? Well only Jesus was left standing and Moses and Elijah had left, not the other way around.

There are various interpretations of the two witnesses but I believe keeping it with it's contemporary audience of the 1st century is crucial.

RogerW
May 2nd 2007, 04:17 PM
Last week I was having a bible study with a friend and before we wrapped it it up I said "All I am waiting for now is the 2 witnesses to appear and I will have no doubt that the time of the END is near". About 10 minutes after my friend left these two guys came to my door and said, "We are hear to spread the news that Jesus is coming soon, so get your house in order" well I jokingly asked "Are you Enoch and Elijah?" There names were accually Dale and Ted. I invited them in and asked if they were Jehovah's Witnesses (that denomination is the only ones that have ever knocked on my door) they were not, so I tried every way in the world to find out their religion so that I could "put them in a box" so to speak but they would have none of it. They said they were just modern day disciples that were spreading the good news of Jesus and His eminant return. After they left I got my Bible back out and read scripture that the "spirit of Elijah" would be here in the last days. Will it be the 2 witnesses literally? The spirit of the 2 witnesses? Or both? Does anyone have any thoughts on this or further study on it? It sure made me wonder if the Spirit of Elijah visited my house because the timing was such a coincidence.
Ranchgirl

When you understand that the two witnesses symbolize the Church then you can understand the two witnesses have been around since the cross. I had posted this in a similar thread a while back and thought it might help to copy and paste again here. It did not originate from me, but helped me to understand the two witnesses symbolize the church in time and her messengers.

The Candlestick is a symbol of God's Church. The star is a symbol of the messenger of God's Church. God, from the very beginning of the book of Revelation reveals what the imagery of the Candlesticks symbolize.

Re 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Here we have Jesus Christ Himself using the same Candlestick [luchnia] to symbolize the Church, and the witnesses work in the New Testament Church as those keeping the light shinning continually, not hiding it, but bringing this light to the World.

Luke 8:16 No man when he lighteth a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a Candlestick, that they which enter in may see the Light.


Matthew 5:14 Ye are the light of the world, A City that is set on a hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a Candlestick; and it giveth Light unto all that are in the house.

The Olive tree is used by God to symbolize the Church. For example in Hosea 14, speaking of Christ we read:

Hosea 14:5-7 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon. His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the Olive Tree, and his smell as Lebanon. They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon.
When we are in Christ, we are like a green olive tree in the house of the Lord (Psalms 52:8). This is the Salvation and the hope of the Israel of God. And as we are the light of the world because Christ is the light of the world, so we are the Olive tree because Christ is this Olive tree. He is the Israel of the New Covenant in whom if we abide, we are sons of God. We can see this in Romans chapter nine or chapter eleven where the Gentile nations are grafted into New Covenant Israel, which is symbolized by the Olive tree.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

God is using a wild olive tree to symbolize the Gentile nations, and the natural Olive Tree to symbolize the representation of Covenant Israel into which believers are grafted. i.e., we join with Paul and the Apostles into Christ, the true Israel of God (Ephesians 2:11-19) which this Covenant tree represents. This is the New Covenant Church, and it is symbolized by the olive tree having Gentiles grafted into it that they become heirs (right along with the Jews) according to the promises to Israel.

Likewise in Zechariah chapter four, the symbolism of two olive trees and the candlestick (lampstand) are signifying the Church.

Zechariah 4:2-6 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord? Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

The candlesticks and olive tress stand before God, not by their own power or by their own might, but by the Holy Spirit of the Lord. It is not by any power we have inherently, but because of the power of the Holy Spirit of God given us that we witness or have the testimony of Christ. Not by our own oil, but by the pure oil of the Olive tree.

Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

The same thing revelation chapter eleven says of the two candlestick/olive trees there. They stand before the God of the earth. They are the anointed ones, meaning they are those who are anointed by the Holy Spirit, by being in Christ. The oil for the light is not theirs, it is that given them.

1st John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So we see from God's Word that the Two Witnesses represent the Church, the Candlesticks represent the Church, and the Olive Tree represents the Church, and that they are the anointed ones who stand before the God of the earth. All roads are leading to the same inescapable conclusion. This imagery represents the Church.

The final identifying factor is that these two witnesses are also called the two Prophets (verse 10). Who are the Prophets of God today?

1st Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healing, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Ever since the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, the Lord's servants of the New Covenant Church go forth prophesying (Acts 2:17). Whenever the Church declares the Word that the future holds everlasting life for the servants of God, an inheritance from above, and it holds judgment for those who do not believe, they are prophesying.

RW

RogerW
May 2nd 2007, 04:23 PM
The time the two witnesses symbolizing 'the' Church, are given to build the Kingdom through the universal church is referenced as 1260 days. This is for building, and nourishing the universal church in time.

Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Re 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The time given the forces of evil to pursue, persecute, overcome and kill the witnesses is referenced as forty and two months.

Re 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

I know the popular opinion is that this time for building and time for destroying is split in half, with the first half for building, and the second half for destroying. But there is one more time reference that cannot be ignored. This is referenced as time, times, and half a time. The woman is nourished from the face of the serpent during this time, this would be the 1260 days (Rev 12:6).

Re 12:14 And to the woman (universal church in time) were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where SHE IS NOURISHED FOR A TIME, AND TIMES, AND HALF A TIME, FROM THE FACE OF THE SERPENT.

The beast thinks he can change the times and laws which God decrees, but Christ tells us the Judgment shall sit, or that the beast will not be able, (even though he will try) to change what God has decreed. But the saints of God will be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of times, this would be the 42 months (Rev 13:5).

Da 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and THINK TO CHANGE TIMES AND LAWS: and they SHALL BE GIVEN INTO HIS HAND UNTIL A TIME AND TIMES AND THE DIVIDING OF TIME.
Da 7:26 BUT THE JUDGMENT SHALL SIT, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Daniel tells us that Michael, the great Prince will stand up for His people, and when He does it will be a time of trouble like never before. When the man standing by the river asks the man clothed in linen how long till the end of all these wonders, the man in linen says, “IT SHALL BE FOR A TIME, TIMES, AND AN HALF,” then all things will be finished.

Da 12:1 AND AT THAT TIME SHALL MICHAEL STAND UP, THE GREAT PRINCE WHICH SANTDETH FOR THE CHILDREN OF THY PEOPLE: and THERE SHALL BE A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Da 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, HOW LONG SHALL IT BE TO THE END OF THESE WONDERS?
Da 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that IT SHALL BE FOR A TIME, TIMES, AND AN HALF; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

In Rev 12 we read about the birth of the NT church in time. It is at this time, the beginning of the NT church when Michael stands up for His people (Rev 12:7). We read of a great war being fought in heaven where Michael and His angels fight against the dragon and his angels. Michael prevails and the Devil and his angels are cast out of heaven to the earth. This is when the universal church in time is nourished from the face of the serpent for a time, and times, and half a time or 1260 days, but it is also the time Satan is given to persecute the church for 42 months.

Re 12:7 AND THERE WAS WAR IN HEAVEN: MICHAEL AND HIS ANGELS FOUGHT AGAINST THE DRAGON; AND THE DRAGON FOUGHT AND HIS ANGELS’
Re 12:8 AND PREVAILED NOT; NEITHER WAS THEIR PLACE FOUND ANY MORE IN HEAVEN.
Re 12:9 AND THE GREAT DRAGON WAS CAST OUT, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: HE WAS CAST OUT INTO THE EARTH, AND HIS ANGELS WERE CAST OUT WITH HIM.

Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where SHE IS NOURISHED FOR A TIME, AND TIMES, AND HALF A TIME, FROM THE FACE OF THE SERPENT.

We have Daniel telling us that Michael will stand up for His people at the BEGINNING of the NT church era. From the time Michael stands up for His people until the fulfillment of all things is called a time, times and a half. In Rev at the birth, or BEGINNING of the NT church we read of Michael fighting against the dragon (standing up for His people), and the newly birthed NT church being led into the wilderness where she is nourished from the face of the serpent for a time, times and a half of time, this time is also symbolized by 1260 days. Daniel also tells us that the saints are given unto the hand of the beast for a time and times and the dividing of time, also symbolized as 42 months. Since, according to Daniel time, times and a half begin with Michael standing up for His people and ends with the fulfillment of ALL THINGS, it is impossible to divide the 1260 days, the 42 months, and the time, times and half time in the middle with the building of the Kingdom through the universal church coming during the first half, and the total destruction of the universal church in time during the second half.

The only way to harmonize all these time references is to realize that all of these times are referring to the whole NT universal church era or Kingdom age. Within the whole universal church era there is both building of the Kingdom through the universal church in time, and persecution, and destroying the saints of God happening simultaneously, or at the same dividing of time. Which is exactly why Daniel tells us this will be a time of trouble such as never before. The exact same warning from Christ when He tells His disciples:

Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

RW

deepjagga
May 2nd 2007, 04:27 PM
From my understanding the 2 witnessess are to be at the wailing wall during the tribulation..........;)
Your understanding is correct.

During the tribulation is when those two witnesses are to appear. John
was dealing with future prophecy on into the last days and the end of time-not that which had already happned or would happen in 1956, 1967, etc... only that which would happen at the end.

Frances
May 2nd 2007, 05:29 PM
I invited them in and asked if they were Jehovah's Witnesses (that denomination is the only ones that have ever knocked on my door) they were not, so I tried every way in the world to find out their religion so that I could "put them in a box" so to speak but they would have none of it.

Sounds like Mormons. They don't like to admit the fact . . . any bona-fide Christian would be pleased to tell you which church, or group of churches, they are a part of.

quiet dove
May 2nd 2007, 07:53 PM
Hi ranchgirl, If you read Rev 11 carefully, you will see that these two dont fit the description given, the two of Rev will be a very special two to say the least:) I believe this to still be future and have not found any historical validiity for it having already happened. I think two people who could do the things they will be given to do then lay in the street dead for three days, then ascend to heaven would have been noticed and written about. I believe this will be a last days event and will happen during the tribulation, the 1260 days will be the first 3.5 years of the GT

RogerW
May 2nd 2007, 10:39 PM
Hi ranchgirl, If you read Rev 11 carefully, you will see that these two dont fit the description given, the two of Rev will be a very special two to say the least:) I believe this to still be future and have not found any historical validiity for it having already happened. I think two people who could do the things they will be given to do then lay in the street dead for three days, then ascend to heaven would have been noticed and written about. I believe this will be a last days event and will happen during the tribulation, the 1260 days will be the first 3.5 years of the GT

Rev 11:11 is NOT telling us that 3 ½ days comes “AFTER” 1,260 days. It says AFTER 3 ½ days, nothing about 1,260 days. It is after or at the end of 3 ½ days that the spirit of life enters into the two witnesses. This symbolizes the fullness of time, which is why we read they are then called to stand on their feet, and IMMEDIATELY they are called to heaven. The next thing we read is the beginning of the final outpouring of the wrath of God. That’s why we read IN THE SAME HOUR there is a great earthquake, and then the third woe COMES QUICKLY (suddenly, without delay, by surprise) and then the sounding of the seventh angel which signals the fullness of time.

Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The number seven symbolizes the totality of whatever is in view. In this case the totality of God’s congregations.

Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

If it’s true that the two witnesses symbolize the totality of Churches, when God talks to these seven Churches, He is not talking to just those, He is talking to all believers and to all Churches. The totality of them which spans throughout time. We today are part of the seven Churches to whom God gives these warnings and encouragements.

So the Lord shows us through these two witnesses, that He has given the Church throughout the ages (totality of His congregations) to bring His prophesy into all the world. When did the Lord commission His Church to prophesy unto all the world? Scripture convinces me that this commission was given beginning with the first century Church.

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

We know the early Church was faithful in her ministry to preach the gospel, and teaching the disciples to observe all things whatsoever the Lord commanded. And though the Lord had promised to be with them, even unto the end of the world, these first Churches have long ago finished their testimony, and cease to exist today. The Church in Sardis for instance had a name that she lived, but Christ called her dead.

The point I am making is that these two witnesses, which symbolize the totality of Churches throughout the whole NT era, faithfully prophesy. There comes a time when Churches finish their testimony, are overcome and killed. Take for instance the Church in Sardis. They thought they were alive, the Lord says, “I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.” Christ tells the Church of Pergamos, “Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.” To the Church of the Laodiceans, “So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.” To the Church in Ephesus, “Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.”

In all of these warnings it becomes clear that the Lord alone builds up, and tears down His Church. According to Rev 11 He uses the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit to accomplish His purpose to overcome and kill the Church in time.

Re 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Re 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

It is not only at the end or near the end of time when the two witnesses finish their testimony, are overcome and killed (Rev 13:7; Rev 17:14). This is something that has been on-going from the beginning of the universal Church in time. But the Church in her totality (7) never ceases to exist on earth. The Church may finish her testimony, be overcome and killed and she lies in the streets of the great city which is likened to Sodom and Egypt where our Lord was crucified. Sodom depicts abominations of the unbelieving nations. Sodomites are those who imitated the licentious wickedness of Sodom (De 23:17; 1Ki 14:24; Ro 1:26-27).

1Ki 14:24 And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.

Egypt is known in Scripture as a land of oppression and bondage, as well as whoredoms.

Ex 3:9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them.

Eze 23:8 Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her.

Lying dead in the street of the great city is symbolic for lying dead in the world of unbelief. It symbolizes being dead in a world that belongs to Satan.

2Co 4:4 In whom the GOD OF THIS WORLD hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Ga 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might DELIVER US FROM THIS PRESENT EVIL WORLD, according to the will of God and our Father:

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of GOD OVERCOMETH THE WORLD: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Since the testimony given these two witnesses (the totality of God’s congregations) began with the first century Churches, the three and one half days and the one thousand two hundred sixty days must encompass the entire NT era. Bringing prophesy 1260 days symbolizes the NT era, and lying dead in the streets for 3 ½ days symbolizes the NT era. Just as we see the thousand years reigning with Christ symbolizes the NT era, and the thousand years for the binding of Satan symbolizes the NT era. They are not literal time references, but rather time references that symbolize the fullness of time.

RW

Akubra51
May 3rd 2007, 01:36 AM
Quote - John 1:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&verse=21&version=50&context=verse)-And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.”


The reason that John the baptist denied being either of these two witnesses (Prophets) was because their comming "together" was for a yet future time.

John the baptist only came in the spirit and power of Elijah even down to his clothing and leather belt , but he was not "THE" Elijah.

2 Kings 1:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=12&chapter=1&verse=8&version=50&context=verse)
So they answered him, “A hairy man wearing a leather belt around his waist.” And he said, “It is Elijah the Tishbite.”

Mark 1:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=1&verse=6&version=50&context=verse)
Now John was clothed with camel’s hair and with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey.

quiet dove
May 3rd 2007, 03:25 AM
RW
Rev 11:11 is NOT telling us that 3 ½ days comes “AFTER” 1,260 days. It says AFTER 3 ½ days, nothing about 1,260 days. It is after or at the end of 3 ½ days that the spirit of life enters into the two witnesses. This symbolizes the fullness of time, which is why we read they are then called to stand on their feet, and IMMEDIATELY they are called to heaven. The next thing we read is the beginning of the final outpouring of the wrath of God. That’s why we read IN THE SAME HOUR there is a great earthquake, and then the third woe COMES QUICKLY (suddenly, without delay, by surprise) and then the sounding of the seventh angel which signals the fullness of time.
Since the testimony given these two witnesses (the totality of God’s congregations) began with the first century Churches, the three and one half days and the one thousand two hundred sixty days must encompass the entire NT era. Bringing prophesy 1260 days symbolizes the NT era, and lying dead in the streets for 3 ½ days symbolizes the NT era. Just as we see the thousand years reigning with Christ symbolizes the NT era, and the thousand years for the binding of Satan symbolizes the NT era. They are not literal time references, but rather time references that symbolize the fullness of time.

If comparing the witnesses to other figures in scripture, they seem to be more similar to OT prophets than the church, very similar to the days when Israel was brought out of Egypt. It clearly says they “prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, and “when they are finished”, yes it does clearly indicate after the 1260 days they are killed and lay in the street three days. How does any of that time frame equate to the fulness of time? Since when have followers of Christ been told to devour their enemies? Since when does the believer react to those who wish to harm them by killing them. If someone rejects the gospel or tries to harm us we are not told to shoot fire out of our mouth.
Stopping rain, turning water to blood, striking the earth with plagues-- much more descriptive of the prophets sent to Israel, not any where near close to any instruction given to the believer in the NT. I just see no scriptural support for what you are saying about these two witnesses.

RogerW
May 3rd 2007, 04:47 PM
If comparing the witnesses to other figures in scripture, they seem to be more similar to OT prophets than the church, very similar to the days when Israel was brought out of Egypt. It clearly says they “prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, and “when they are finished”, yes it does clearly indicate after the 1260 days they are killed and lay in the street three days. How does any of that time frame equate to the fulness of time? Since when have followers of Christ been told to devour their enemies? Since when does the believer react to those who wish to harm them by killing them. If someone rejects the gospel or tries to harm us we are not told to shoot fire out of our mouth.
Stopping rain, turning water to blood, striking the earth with plagues-- much more descriptive of the prophets sent to Israel, not any where near close to any instruction given to the believer in the NT. I just see no scriptural support for what you are saying about these two witnesses.


I’ve provided many passages of Scripture to show you why I believe the two witnesses symbolize the universal church in time. You disagree and say “they seem” to be something else, but can you prove your “feelings” are valid with supporting Scripture?

The passage says the two witnesses are given 1260 days to bring their testimony. But it does not say that it takes the two witnesses (churches) 1260 (the entire time) to testify. This is the amount of time they are given (symbolizing the NT era), but not necessarily the amount of time it takes for each church/messenger (two witnesses) to bring their testimony into the world, and be finished.

We find throughout redemptive history churches/messengers coming with faithful testimony for a time, who have ceased to be faithful. Consider for instance the early churches. Most of the beginning churches were faithful during the days of the Apostles and for a time thereafter. But even Paul knew that the churches would be assaulted after he was gone, so he warns her, “Ac 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.”

The church that was in Rome was at one time faithful, but she became Roman Catholic, and look at her today. And yet when we understand that the Protestant Reformation came as a result of how far from purity and truth the church had strayed, we find the providence of God in the fact that this once faithful church in time had finished her testimony and now she lays dead in the streets of the great city likened unto Sodom and Egypt (she’s still in the world, but dead as far as faithful witness is concerned).

When a church ceases to be the pillar and ground of truth, then she very effectively has ceased to bring true testimony, her testimony is finished, and the True Light she once proclaimed has been extinguished (killed). She (the church) still exists in the world, but she is dead when she ceases to bring true testimony because the testimony she brings has no power to bring light and life. What is this power that God has given His witnesses that they should testify for this period of time?

Ac 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

It is the power of the Holy Spirit which was given God's witnesses (church) at Pentecost. In the power of the Holy Spirit we come with the testimony of God. Moses came in this power, and the prophets of God such as Elijah came in this power. These two witnesses symbolize God’s messengers and prophets. The two witnesses/messengers of the gospel, have by the Spirit of God become prophets, fulfilling the words spoken by the prophet Joel.

Ac 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Ac 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Ac 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

There are some who believe that these two witnesses are literally Moses and Elijah. But that is because 'the law and the prophets' is a phrase which is a synonym for the Word of God. And the Word of God is that law which these prophets of the Church come with. i.e., the Church comes in the Spirit and Power of Moses and Elijah because they come as witnesses to the law (as Moses) and as prophets of judgment and deliverance (as Elijah). Not that this literally represents Moses and Elijah, but that God's Church is 'sent' with the law and the prophecy, just as they were. In the same sense that God said that John the Baptist came in the 'Spirit and power of Elijah,' but that he was not Elijah. Because of being endowed with the power of the Holy Spirit and the Word from God's mouth, the true believers give the world the same witness of God’s presence and power as Moses and Elijah did.


It is the Church that is given this power to prophecy, power as witnesses, power of the Holy Spirit, but the question is often asked, 'why are there two witnesses?' It’s a mistake to assume that because it says there are two, it implies that it is literally two people. The two symbolize the whole Church just as the twelve tribes of Israel represented the whole Old Testament congregation. Or as another example, in Zechariah we see the illustration of one candlestick (lampstand). In revelation chapter one we see the illustration of seven candlesticks, and in this Revelation chapter eleven we see two candlesticks. That's because with these numbers God is showing the different aspects of the Church in each symbolic number. The number two signifies the truthfulness of the Church. And particularly the phrase 'two witnesses' is used to signify that these witnesses in the Church are those which testify in truth. The two witnesses are not symbolizing the whole universal or external covenant Church, they symbolize only the faithful (truthful) Eternal Church within the external body. The believers are the elect who don't fall into the teachings of false gospels, but who are in Christ eternally, and rest upon the true foundation (Christ), which is their pillar.

Scripture confirms that the number two identifies with a faithful witness, signifying truth. God has said that at the mouth of a minimum of two witnesses, the truth is established. By this God is showing us how the minimum of two witnesses signifies what is being spoken is true.

Mt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two of three witnesses every word may be established.

Two witnesses is the minimum number to establish truth. God declared that no man should be put to death by the witness of one man. It took a minimum of two witnesses to establish truth that one could be put to death. The number two established an honest or truthful witness. Again, Jesus said:

Joh 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

This is why we're shown the symbolism of two witnesses in Revelation. It signifies these are not just professing Christians, they are the Eternal Church of God which comes with the Word of God truthfully. The number two illustrates this.

Mr 6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

They brought the truthful witness of God, signified by them going out by two. Which is also as Christ also sent the Seventy out to witness with power by two.

Lu 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
Lu 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Scripture tells us that the Word of God from the mouth of God's prophets is as a fire which devours His enemies. This is because it is a Word of judgment. Symbolically speaking, as fire is to wood, so is the Word of God to the wicked because it is the declaration of their destruction which cannot return void. The Word of God is either a witness of truth unto man for His Salvation, or it is a witness against man unto his judgment.

“fire proceedeth out of their mouth”

Fire proceeding from the mouth tells us that this fire is 'symbolizing' the Word of God. The mouth is where words of fire come from, not literal flames. What words does the faithful Church speak that is like a fire to burn the enemies of God? Clearly, our Lord tells us that it is the Word of God. Their Word of testimony to repent and be Saved brings life to those who by Grace of God receive it, but their testimony of sure judgment and God's vengeance upon the unrepentant is as fire to those who do not want to hear it. Man in his destitute heart reviles and scoffs and shows their hatred for the witness to the truth, and when that happens the Word is a witness of judgment upon their heads. These unrepentant are those devoured by the fire from the witness of the Church.

Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breadeth the rock in pieces?
Jer 23:30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
Jer 23:31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.

God is using fire to symbolize His Word to the people. He is declaring that it will judge the false prophets of His congregation for making their own words to be the Word of God. This is spiritual idolatry. God's Word, in the mouth of His two witnesses is as a fire and will destroy these who do wickedly. It is clear the Lord is speaking of those who come bringing His Word, and He signifies them as His servants who come with fire from their mouths.

Jer 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mout fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

The exact same symbolic language which we see in Revelations 11 of the witnesses of God with fire coming out of their mouths whereby the enemies are killed. This fire is symbolizing the Word of God, which by the Spirit is the power of judgment given the Church. Just as God prophesied to the Old Testament congregation that He would bring the nations upon the house of Israel as judgment, so God will also allow the beast to overcome and kill those who have forsaken Him and done the same wicked and abominable things.

RW

third hero
May 3rd 2007, 05:09 PM
It amazes me when some in here see what is clearly written and decide to talk about it, that those who do not believe in the context of what was written quickly come in to snuff it out. Wow, it's mindblowing how the ASA do their work here. (Amil superfriends Association, for all who was wondering. Thank you BING! I will always have problems calling them amils again thanks to you.)

My opinion. If they are here, they are probably in training, awaiting for the time when God calls them out to fulfill their roles. And this a another prophet, who confesses that he is not one of the two, can attest to, for I am going through the same exact thing, although my role isn't like the two lampstands.

BeOfGoodCourage
May 3rd 2007, 05:35 PM
It amazes me when some in here see what is clearly written and decide to talk about it, that those who do not believe in the context of what was written quickly come in to snuff it out. Wow, it's mindblowing how the ASA do their work here. (Amil superfriends Association, for all who was wondering. Thank you BING! I will always have problems calling them amils again thanks to you.)

My opinion. If they are here, they are probably in training, awaiting for the time when God calls them out to fulfill their roles. And this a another prophet, who confesses that he is not one of the two, can attest to, for I am going through the same exact thing, although my role isn't like the two lampstands.


I believe that first paragraph works both ways.

These are not men but the Word of God given to the whole earth. Zech. is clear on that.

third hero
May 3rd 2007, 05:39 PM
I believe that first paragraph works both ways.

These are not men but the Word of God given to the whole earth. Zech. is clear on that.


And right on que too. Imagine that?

Saved7
May 3rd 2007, 06:16 PM
Last week I was having a bible study with a friend and before we wrapped it it up I said "All I am waiting for now is the 2 witnesses to appear and I will have no doubt that the time of the END is near". About 10 minutes after my friend left these two guys came to my door and said, "We are hear to spread the news that Jesus is coming soon, so get your house in order" well I jokingly asked "Are you Enoch and Elijah?" There names were accually Dale and Ted. I invited them in and asked if they were Jehovah's Witnesses (that denomination is the only ones that have ever knocked on my door) they were not, so I tried every way in the world to find out their religion so that I could "put them in a box" so to speak but they would have none of it. They said they were just modern day disciples that were spreading the good news of Jesus and His eminant return. After they left I got my Bible back out and read scripture that the "spirit of Elijah" would be here in the last days. Will it be the 2 witnesses literally? The spirit of the 2 witnesses? Or both? Does anyone have any thoughts on this or further study on it? It sure made me wonder if the Spirit of Elijah visited my house because the timing was such a coincidence.

Ranchgirl


Well given the TIMING of it, I would say that God is just letting you know that the day is nearer than we realize. I believe that it is going to be literally 2 men, more specifically I think that Elijah will be one of them.
I say this about literally 2 men, because the scriptures state that their dead bodies lay in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 days, while the world celebrated. That has yet to happen so we know that our Lord hasn't returned, for those who think He has. And we know that it can't be the bible or the church or the OT and NT saints, because it says THEIR BODIES LAY DEAD IN THE STREETS FOR 3 DAYS!!!
And for those who believe that it has happened already, when was that celebration by the way? And why isn't that celebration a tradition that has been carried on and handed down for the last 2 thousand years, just like we celebrate any other holiday?

Saved7
May 3rd 2007, 06:19 PM
If comparing the witnesses to other figures in scripture, they seem to be more similar to OT prophets than the church, very similar to the days when Israel was brought out of Egypt. It clearly says they “prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, and “when they are finished”, yes it does clearly indicate after the 1260 days they are killed and lay in the street three days. How does any of that time frame equate to the fulness of time? Since when have followers of Christ been told to devour their enemies? Since when does the believer react to those who wish to harm them by killing them. If someone rejects the gospel or tries to harm us we are not told to shoot fire out of our mouth.
Stopping rain, turning water to blood, striking the earth with plagues-- much more descriptive of the prophets sent to Israel, not any where near close to any instruction given to the believer in the NT. I just see no scriptural support for what you are saying about these two witnesses.





GOOD JOB QD!!:)

RogerW
May 3rd 2007, 09:33 PM
Well given the TIMING of it, I would say that God is just letting you know that the day is nearer than we realize. I believe that it is going to be literally 2 men, more specifically I think that Elijah will be one of them.
I say this about literally 2 men, because the scriptures state that their dead bodies lay in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 days, while the world celebrated. That has yet to happen so we know that our Lord hasn't returned, for those who think He has. And we know that it can't be the bible or the church or the OT and NT saints, because it says THEIR BODIES LAY DEAD IN THE STREETS FOR 3 DAYS!!!
And for those who believe that it has happened already, when was that celebration by the way? And why isn't that celebration a tradition that has been carried on and handed down for the last 2 thousand years, just like we celebrate any other holiday?

You’re missing the symbolism, trying to force literalism upon spiritual truths. Does not Christ tell us that the Church is the BODY? Dead bodies symbolize dead churches. Churches that bring another gospel, lying doctrines, under the power of antichrist. These churches are lying dead in the world, they still exist but bring NO Light or Life. These are symbolized as laying dead in the streets of the great city spiritually likened to Sodom and Egypt.

Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church;
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Ro 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Ro 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Mt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Far from mourning the demise of the two witnesses, the unsaved rejoice that the Word of life they brought has been silenced, because these faithful witnesses of God tormented them. And the means of their torment was their testimony of fire from their mouths which would burn them. Their testimony that their sin was not going to be winked at by God, but judged. The unbelieving world will not believe these truths, and this Word is anguish and a torment to them.

The unbelieving grow weary of the warnings of the faithful witnesses, because they want to hear pleasant things which make them comfortable and which are not a torment. That’s why they like the deceitful and dishonest prophets in the church. Prophets who twist God's Word to accommodate their wants and lusts, and prophets who say, 'thus saith the Lord, when the Lord has not said.' Prophets who allow them to hold doctrines contrary to God's written Word. Prophets who comfort them saying 'Peace, Peace, when there is no peace.' For though they may have peace with the world, there is no Peace with God for the wicked.

Here in Revelation 11 this exchanging gifts signifies that they are paying homage to each other 'as if' they are somebody. They are honoring themselves in place of God. Man supplanting the Word of God (and thus God) and sitting in the Temple to rule 'as if' he is God. And he is receiving gifts (honor) of men for doing so. This is symbolizing their showing reverent regard for each other. This should be for God, but now that they are free from the torment of God's Word, they honor themselves. In doing so they are serving a false god in the temple, rather that the true God of the Bible. They reject God's law and are serving themselves (lawless man, or the man of sin) and seek after gifts, the glory of men, rather than of God.

Mt 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Pr 19:6 Many will intreat the favour of the prince: and every man is a friend to him that giveth gifts.

Isa 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followed after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

RW

7Trumpets
May 4th 2007, 03:11 AM
I believe that first paragraph works both ways.

These are not men but the Word of God given to the whole earth. Zech. is clear on that.
The two witnesses are as some has said - the law and the prophets.

Was expanded to include the Old and New Testament. The witnesses are those who witness about Jesus:

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Luke 24:44
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: Acts 24:14
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. Acts 28:23
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets. Romans 3:21

Consider what Revelation says about the two witnesses - that they are the olive trees:

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. Rev 11:3, 4

These two witnesses stand before God and are the two olive trees. These are clearly discussed by Zechariah.

Zec 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
Zec 4:4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
Zec 4:5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Zec 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
Nothing but the word of God testifies about Him. Moses is symbolic of tthe law for it came through Him. Elijah is symbolic of the prophets - it appears he is the greatest in some sense. Further, he was taken directly to heaven.

Moses and Elijah stood beside Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. In some ways their lives prefigured Christ. Moses first miracle was turning water into blood; Jesus' first was turning water into wine (blood of the grapes).

When Elijah spoke to Ahab that there would be no rain, it was on the word of the Lord (not his power). Everything done by Moses - like the plagues and the feeding of the children of Israel in the wilderness was on the word of the Lord.

No human, no matter how great, can do NOTHING except the word of the Lord.

The two witness are the law and the prophets; the Old Testament and the New - the word of the Lord.

Saved7
May 4th 2007, 12:07 PM
RogerW,

So are you suggesting then that the church is dead and useless. And what of the 3 days in the streets? Where is the 3 days?
Are you a dead christian? I know I am not a spiritually dead christian. And are you suggesting then also, that God's word is dead and useless for 3 days, whatever those 3 days are in your mind? I don't know, but I thought the Word was life. Or do you suppose that maybe, just maybe there might actually be literal and physical prophecies? I think there are, in fact there was a literal physical Saviour, and it wasn't a spiritual nation as a whole like the Jews would have us to beleive.

RogerW
May 4th 2007, 03:48 PM
RogerW,
So are you suggesting then that the church is dead and useless. And what of the 3 days in the streets? Where is the 3 days?
Are you a dead christian? I know I am not a spiritually dead christian. And are you suggesting then also, that God's word is dead and useless for 3 days, whatever those 3 days are in your mind? I don't know, but I thought the Word was life. Or do you suppose that maybe, just maybe there might actually be literal and physical prophecies? I think there are, in fact there was a literal physical Saviour, and it wasn't a spiritual nation as a whole like the Jews would have us to beleive.

Following is my post #14 copied and pasted here. Apparently you missed it, because you are asking of things I've already addressed in this thread.

The point I am making is that these two witnesses, which symbolize the totality of Churches throughout the whole NT era, faithfully prophesy. There comes a time when Churches finish their testimony, are overcome and killed. Take for instance the Church in Sardis. They thought they were alive, the Lord says, “I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.” Christ tells the Church of Pergamos, “Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.” To the Church of the Laodiceans, “So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.” To the Church in Ephesus, “Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.”

In all of these warnings it becomes clear that the Lord alone builds up, and tears down His Church. According to Rev 11 He uses the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit to accomplish His purpose to overcome and kill the Church in time.

Re 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Re 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

It is not only at the end or near the end of time when the two witnesses finish their testimony, are overcome and killed (Rev 13:7; Rev 17:14). This is something that has been on-going from the beginning of the universal Church in time. But the Church in her totality (7) never ceases to exist on earth. The Church may finish her testimony, be overcome and killed and she lies in the streets of the great city which is likened to Sodom and Egypt where our Lord was crucified. Sodom depicts abominations of the unbelieving nations. Sodomites are those who imitated the licentious wickedness of Sodom (De 23:17; 1Ki 14:24; Ro 1:26-27).

1Ki 14:24 And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.

Egypt is known in Scripture as a land of oppression and bondage, as well as whoredoms.

Ex 3:9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them.

Eze 23:8 Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her.

Lying dead in the street of the great city is symbolic for lying dead in the world of unbelief. It symbolizes being dead in a world that belongs to Satan.

2Co 4:4 In whom the GOD OF THIS WORLD hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Ga 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might DELIVER US FROM THIS PRESENT EVIL WORLD, according to the will of God and our Father:

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of GOD OVERCOMETH THE WORLD: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Since the testimony given these two witnesses (the totality of God’s congregations) began with the first century Churches, the three and one half days and the one thousand two hundred sixty days must encompass the entire NT era. Bringing prophesy 1260 days symbolizes the NT era, and lying dead in the streets for 3 ½ days symbolizes the NT era. Just as we see the thousand years reigning with Christ symbolizes the NT era, and the thousand years for the binding of Satan symbolizes the NT era. They are not literal time references, but rather time references that symbolize the fullness of time.

RW

addendum: This does not mean that every church throughout the world is dead and useless. It is only those witnesses (churches) who have finished the testimony God has given them who are killed and lie dead in this ungodly world (likened unto Sodom & Egypt) until the fullness of time (3 & 1/2 days), at which time God will resurrect them bodily to Himself.

randyw41a
May 6th 2007, 01:47 PM
I agree that the two witnesses have yet to appear. When they do show up, I don't think there will be any misconception about who they are. In todays modern world of technology, two people doing the things they are supposed to do, would probably be all over the news. I think most Christians will know, when these two actually appear...

davidturtledove
May 6th 2007, 08:33 PM
It amazes me when some in here see what is clearly written and decide to talk about it, that those who do not believe in the context of what was written quickly come in to snuff it out. Wow, it's mindblowing how the ASA do their work here. (Amil superfriends Association, for all who was wondering. Thank you BING! I will always have problems calling them amils again thanks to you.)

My opinion. If they are here, they are probably in training, awaiting for the time when God calls them out to fulfill their roles. And this a another prophet, who confesses that he is not one of the two, can attest to, for I am going through the same exact thing, although my role isn't like the two lampstands.

interesting post:)

davidturtledove
May 6th 2007, 08:38 PM
I agree that the two witnesses have yet to appear. When they do show up, I don't think there will be any misconception about who they are. In todays modern world of technology, two people doing the things they are supposed to do, would probably be all over the news. I think most Christians will know, when these two actually appear...

I agree it actually says that the dwellers of the earth will give gifts to each other upon their(the two witnessses ) demise because the two prophets were causing them great suffering. So it seems that the world will have identified these two as the cause of all the plagues and hate them for it!

I would surmise that in this hour many false witnesses will be exposed by their lack of exemption to the plagues and it will serve as a real eye opener to those that God has sealed for Himself!