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Pilgrimtozion
May 2nd 2007, 06:35 PM
This thread may very well end up in Controversial Issues, but I want to start it here since it deals with the Bible and its content.

I would like your input on what the Bible says concerning the relationship between our words and our relationship with God. An often quoted Scripture in this context is "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God". What do you think this verse means in this context - if it has anything to do with it at all? What difference does it make if I confess the Word of God or if I confess my feelings or the situation around me? What is the right and Biblical way to deal with these issues?

I know the questions are many and they are broad, but why don't you start with the Scripture and we'll take it from there.

Theophilus
May 2nd 2007, 06:40 PM
From Matthew 12:33-37 (NLT)

33 “A tree is identified by its fruit. If a tree is good, its fruit will be good. If a tree is bad, its fruit will be bad. 34 You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say. 35 A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart. 36 And I tell you this, you must give an account on judgment day for every idle word you speak. 37 The words you say will either acquit you or condemn you.”

I don't know if this is exactly what you meant, but the key phrase for me is in red, when talking about the relationship between our words and our relationship with God.

Pilgrimtozion
May 2nd 2007, 06:49 PM
From Matthew 12:33-37 (NLT)

33 “A tree is identified by its fruit. If a tree is good, its fruit will be good. If a tree is bad, its fruit will be bad. 34 You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say. 35 A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart. 36 And I tell you this, you must give an account on judgment day for every idle word you speak. 37 The words you say will either acquit you or condemn you.”

I don't know if this is exactly what you meant, but the key phrase for me is in red, when talking about the relationship between our words and our relationship with God.

So what you are saying is that our words are merely the result of something that has already happened in our heart? That inspires another question: to which extent do our words influence what is in our heart - the reverse process of that which is mentioned in the verse you quoted?

For instance, if I complain about my lack of finances all the time, it reveals something about what is in my heart. But if I confess that God is my provider instead, will that change what is in my heart? Will it change my faith? Will it change my perspective on reality and even my relationship with God?

Sold Out
May 2nd 2007, 06:59 PM
The Word of God is the scriptures. Our faith is a result of what is contained within the words of the bible. The divine revelation of God by the written word is sufficient for our salvation and sanctification.


II Timothy 3:15,16 "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

threebigrocks
May 2nd 2007, 07:05 PM
You can not verbally or in written word complain about it, but that doesn't mean it isn't in your heart.

Along the lines of living on the very Word of God, that is what we are to live on, and the fact that what goes into a man passes through but what comes out of a man though his mouth reveals the heart.


Matthew 4
3And the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
4But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"

Matthew 15
17"Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated?
18"But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.


And who gave a man his tongue to speak? Not man or the world he is in, but the Father.

Theophilus
May 2nd 2007, 07:12 PM
So what you are saying is that our words are merely the result of something that has already happened in our heart?

I suppose you could put it that way. I'd probably express it as our words reflect what is in our heart, if that makes any difference.


That inspires another question: to which extent do our words influence what is in our heart - the reverse process of that which is mentioned in the verse you quoted?

Well, if I believe that "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh", there isn't a reverse process. If my words are a direct result of what's going on in the core of my being (or heart, if you prefer), then it's only one way. To back that up with Scripture, how 'bout this (Matthew 15:10-20, NLT):


10 Then Jesus called to the crowd to come and hear. “Listen,” he said, “and try to understand.
11 It’s not what goes into your mouth that defiles you; you are defiled by the words that come out of your mouth.”
12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you realize you offended the Pharisees by what you just said?”
13 Jesus replied, “Every plant not planted by my heavenly Father will be uprooted,
14 so ignore them. They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch.”
15 Then Peter said to Jesus, “Explain to us the parable that says people aren’t defiled by what they eat.”
16 “Don’t you understand yet?” Jesus asked.
17 “Anything you eat passes through the stomach and then goes into the sewer.
18 But the words you speak come from the heart—that’s what defiles you.
19 For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander.
20 These are what defile you. Eating with unwashed hands will never defile you.”


For instance, if I complain about my lack of finances all the time, it reveals something about what is in my heart. But if I confess that God is my provider instead, will that change what is in my heart? Will it change my faith? Will it change my perspective on reality and even my relationship with God?

Your heart and your faith are not changed by profession or confession...your heart is changed by the Holy Spirit (conviction, revelation, guidance, etc), growth in grace, and experience. :)

karenoka27
May 2nd 2007, 07:15 PM
I'm going to give this a try...

It seems that what we say and with what attitude is what we need to keep in check. We have that never ending spiritual warfare going on within us (Romans 7)...

Proverbs 34:13-"Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile."
If we examine ourselves and line it up with Scripture then it is evil when we complain about our situations. God is our provider. He looks out for His own.
Psalm 37: 25-"I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread."

I think we have to watch every step we take, every word we speak if we are to be a witness (yikes..I'm convicting myself here!)...
Proverbs 4:26-"26Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established."

Praise God for we are His ambassadors! We the Light of Life shining within us...we need to let our Light shine through our words and our attitudes that others might see Jesus Christ!

humbled
May 2nd 2007, 07:19 PM
So what you are saying is that our words are merely the result of something that has already happened in our heart? That inspires another question: to which extent do our words influence what is in our heart - the reverse process of that which is mentioned in the verse you quoted?

For instance, if I complain about my lack of finances all the time, it reveals something about what is in my heart. But if I confess that God is my provider instead, will that change what is in my heart? Will it change my faith? Will it change my perspective on reality and even my relationship with God?
Complaining about a lack of finances reveals a lack of faith in the provision of God.

Confessing that God is your provider shows faith, which comes from within. But that doesn't mean you'll get what YOU want (ie, money), but it will hopefully strengthen you in the fact that God will give you what you need.

If you confess faith in the provision of God even if you don't feel it, you are exercising that faith, which is perfectly fine .. because that renewing of the mind, by filling it with biblical truth, is what helps us grow. The bible teaches us that God will provide, so if you don't SEE it, yet you praise God anyway because He tells us that He will provide all our needs, then you are growing in faith.

I think what this does is increase the confidence of the believer, not change the heart. The heart is already changed to believe the Word. A Christian will believe Gods Word even when they don't see it happening. That is what it means to have faith :)

That said, the complainer may want to reanalayze their claim to faith ... seeing that they don't believe in God's promise to provide all their needs :hmm:

My 2cents

Pilgrimtozion
May 2nd 2007, 07:24 PM
Your heart and your faith are not changed by profession or confession...your heart is changed by the Holy Spirit (conviction, revelation, guidance, etc), growth in grace, and experience. :)

Here you touch on the core of what I am talking about. Now, I completely agree with you.

Still, some contend with what you say and argue that life and death are in the power of the tongue. They say that speaking spiritual truths make things happen in the spiritual realm if those words are carried by faith. An example might be a student who has no money and begins to study the Word of God and meditate on the promises of God concerning God's provision. When he feels he truly believes this in his heart, he makes the confession with his mouth and sees God's provision come to pass.

Can you see the line becoming finer? Is God's provision dependent upon our faith or even our confession of that truth, the confession being rooted in faith?

Jesusinmyheart
May 2nd 2007, 07:51 PM
Pilgrimtozion,

Interesting question, and here's my perspective of it, in regards to your OP verse:

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

"Faith comes by hearing", this is the faith as in trust coming by the hearing of the word.

And hearing ("Shama") (comes) by the word of God. this is the "Shamah" spoken of in the OT:
(One could say: and obedience comes by the Word of God.)

H8085
שׁמע
shâma‛
BDB Definition:
1) to hear, listen to, obey (verb)
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to hear (perceive by ear)
1a2) to hear of or concerning
1a3) to hear (have power to hear)
1a4) to hear with attention or interest, listen to
1a5) to understand (language)
1a6) to hear (of judicial cases)
1a7) to listen, give heed
1a7a) to consent, agree
1a7b) to grant request
1a8) to listen to, yield to
1a9) to obey, be obedient
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be heard (of voice or sound)
1b2) to be heard of
1b3) to be regarded, be obeyed
1c) (Piel) to cause to hear, call to hear, summon
1d) (Hiphil)
1d1) to cause to hear, tell, proclaim, utter a sound
1d2) to sound aloud (musical term)
1d3) to make proclamation, summon
1d4) to cause to be heard
2) sound (noun masculine)
Part of Speech: see above in Definition
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2412, 2412a

The word "Shama", infers not just a hearing, but also an understanding and obveying of what is said ! All of the things i underlined apply to this when God said :Shama! O Yisrael...

It's like a parent saying: "listen up son !!!" By which one usually means: "listen carefully to my instruction, and do as i said"

This same Shama Yeshua refers to here:

Mar 12:29 Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Mar 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
Mar 12:31 The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him.
Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."

To love God and your neighbor with all your heart mind and soul and strenght, is to sacrifice yourself and lay your life down. This is essentially what Yeshua did for us.

Now i see you said : "The Power Of Our Words"

Pro 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

This could be good fruit or bad fruit according to what we say.

Pro 15:4 A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.

With our tongue we either bless or curse people.

Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell.
Jas 3:7 For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by mankind,
Jas 3:8 but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.
Jas 3:9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God.
Jas 3:10 From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so.

I am not sure the verses are related, as to your question here:


What difference does it make if I confess the Word of God or if I confess my feelings or the situation around me? What is the right and Biblical way to deal with these issues?

The only connection i can make, is that if you have received Faith by hearing, and you hear (Shama) by the Word of God, you will be carefull to love God, with all your heart, mind, soul and strenght, and love your neighbor as yourself, and actually produce fruit in accordance with God's Word.

As for how this goes along with what's in your heart, it's God that circumcises your heart through the Word, for without the word you cannot "Shama", cause you'll have no instruction.... this is in accordance with:

Luk 6:45 The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

And this is the Faith that produces good works:

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Here's a brief synopsis on Faith:

I have also studied on the word "emunah"(faith) Which indicates more than what most people understand Faith to be, not just something we believe, but follow out.
Faith treanslates to fidelity, and of course the opposite of that is adultery.


Faith:
Main Entry: 1faith
Pronunciation: 'fAth
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths /
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's
promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith


Deu 32:20 And he said, 'I will hide my face from them; I will see what their
end will be, For they are a perverse generation, children in whom is no faithfulness. ("emunah")

emunah
H530
אמנה / אמוּנה
'ĕmûnâh
BDB Definition:
1) firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H529
Same Word by TWOT Number: 116e

So if one does not obey the Word, can one truly have lasting salvation ?

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

Souled Out
May 2nd 2007, 07:54 PM
Here you touch on the core of what I am talking about. Now, I completely agree with you.

Still, some contend with what you say and argue that life and death are in the power of the tongue. They say that speaking spiritual truths make things happen in the spiritual realm if those words are carried by faith. An example might be a student who has no money and begins to study the Word of God and meditate on the promises of God concerning God's provision. When he feels he truly believes this in his heart, he makes the confession with his mouth and sees God's provision come to pass.

Can you see the line becoming finer? Is God's provision dependent upon our faith or even our confession of that truth, the confession being rooted in faith?

Maybe this can provide a basis.

The Greek word, LOGOS, means "a word, uttered by a living voice, embodiment of a concept or idea.

John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word (Logos) was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.

The Greek word, REMA, means "that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word.”

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words (Rhema) I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word (Rhema) of God.

Jesus is the Logos, the written Word in the form of a man. I believe that Rhema is the Holy Spirit, the One that speaks the word (revelation) that leads us to all truth and to Christ.

Acts 10:44 demonstrates the two.

“While Peter was still speaking these words (Rhema), the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message (Logos).

Rhema allows people to be baptized with the Hoy Spirit. Rhema expresses and pours out Logos, so yes, our words when spoken from the Holy Spirit become an expression of scripture (revelation) and Christ. It is Spirit and it gives life.

But the thing is to know if it’s you speaking or if it’s the Holy Spirit speaking. God doesn't just give a word. He always gives His faith to carry that word forward till it's fulfillment.

Some people are speaking things from themselves; things that were not uttered the Holy Spirit.

Theophilus
May 2nd 2007, 08:06 PM
...Still, some contend with what you say and argue that life and death are in the power of the tongue. They say that speaking spiritual truths make things happen in the spiritual realm if those words are carried by faith. An example might be a student who has no money and begins to study the Word of God and meditate on the promises of God concerning God's provision. When he feels he truly believes this in his heart, he makes the confession with his mouth and sees God's provision come to pass.

Well, Scripture says as much in Proverbs 18:21: Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

What does that mean, though? That a word I speak can kill you, or make something happen? Heavens no. It is your will that accomplishes things, not your words. As we've already discussed, your words are a reflection of your heart.

I can say, "I'm going to kill you"...and believe it with all my might...and you won't drop over dead. By the same token, I can come up and choke you to death without ever saying a word...because it was in my will to kill you. Or, I can say, "I'm going to kill you" and perform some act of violence that will accomplish your death...but my saying it didn't make it so (although it did act as a warning, if you were prudent...Run, Forrest, run!)

So for me, that Proverbs verse means, "If you like to talk about things...things that are in your heart...good or bad, you'll eat the fruit of what you say." Nothing mysterious there....again, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth is speaking...good fruit for a good heart, and evil fruit for an evil heart. Life in Him for those who speak of the One who resides in our heart....or death for the those who lack Him.


Can you see the line becoming finer? Is God's provision dependent upon our faith or even our confession of that truth, the confession being rooted in faith?

No, I don't think God's provision is dependent on our faith. I see God provide when there's a lack of faith, or even misguided faith...He's like a Father that way. ;) His provision despite our lack should surely serve to increase our faith, though.

Jesusinmyheart
May 2nd 2007, 08:21 PM
I can say, "I'm going to kill you"...and believe it with all my might...and you won't drop over dead.

Just saying those words does kill a small part in the heart of the person it was directed to. Whether this person may have any intentions or not, it hurts.

The saying "sticks and stones can hurt my bones but words can't hurt me" is absolutley false, and totally untrue.

This is why Yeshua said:

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

BTW, Raca, means "worthless" .....

Theophilus
May 2nd 2007, 08:33 PM
Just saying those words does kill a small part in the heart of the person it was directed to. Whether this person may have any intentions or not, it hurts.

The saying "sticks and stones can hurt my bones but words can't hurt me" is absolutley false, and totally untrue.

This is why Yeshua said:

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

BTW, Raca, means "worthless" .....

Well, it can hurt someone emotionally...but I can't "kill" a part of their spirit (it's eternal) by what I say, any more than I can physically kill them by just saying something harsh or unpleasant.

As for the words of the Master you've given us...We need to interpret them in light of the other things He said, which we've mentioned above. If you're calling someone worthless or fool, you're showing your lack of Christ in your life. It's not about what you words can do...it's what your words show about you (again, that reflection of the heart). If you're calling someone fool, or hating them, or calling them worthless...than your heart is not right, and if you continue in that path, hell is your destiny.

Jesusinmyheart
May 2nd 2007, 08:43 PM
Theo,

I believe when bad words are said it can 'crush' our spirit. Maybe not killed, but injured.

Yes, i agree that the verses speak of a heart 'condition' if one uses sad words like that..

Theophilus
May 2nd 2007, 08:47 PM
Theo,

I believe when bad words are said it can 'crush' our spirit. Maybe not killed, but injured.

Yes, i agree that the verses speak of a heart 'condition' if one uses sad words like that..

We're just coming at it from slightly different angles, JIMH. (I saw someone use that for your user name yesterday, and liked it. ;) )

karenoka27
May 2nd 2007, 08:53 PM
me thinks me not a very good Bible chatter.....

Pilgrimtozion
May 2nd 2007, 08:58 PM
me thinks me not a very good Bible chatter.....

Let me use this as an excellent example of what we are talking about here. According to some, Karen just more or less cursed herself by saying she is not a very good Bible chatter. Her words, holding the power of life and death in them, just impacted her spiritually. Instead of saying this, she should have spoken something positive and thereby blessed herself, something which would have had a positive impact.

What do you think of these principles and their application? It's the same thing I was just saying about God's provision but from a different angle.

Btw, Karen: you're doing well! Keep participating! :hug:

karenoka27
May 2nd 2007, 09:02 PM
I believe that I trust in my Lord and my words that I do speak will convey the love that I have for my Master, my King, my Provider.
I believe that my God will provide for me, will see me through my darkest storm, and will guide me with His eye...(Psalm 32:8).
I believe I can chat about the Bible because I have faith that each word in it is written and inspired in truth!

Walstib
May 2nd 2007, 09:31 PM
karenoka27,

Please do continue... I just saw a good example of the "typed" word having a chance of effecting change in a person ;)

Jesusinmyheart
May 2nd 2007, 09:35 PM
Let me use this as an excellent example of what we are talking about here. According to some, Karen just more or less cursed herself by saying she is not a very good Bible chatter. Her words, holding the power of life and death in them, just impacted her spiritually. Instead of saying this, she should have spoken something positive and thereby blessed herself, something which would have had a positive impact.

What do you think of these principles and their application?

This is why i say that depression to an extend is a choice. One gets down because of something, and then wallows in pity continuously. Which is a choice to continue in negativity.
This is probably the reason why when i learned the true love God has for me and how He relates to me, all my anxiety and depression i had lifted.

The words Karenoka spoke came from a thought of being inferior.
But one has to realize that no human can ever be born to be a master. Maybe this is something God may intend from birth, but it's something one grows into. Life is a learning experience, and he who has his/her eye trained on God will be taught, and will learn. :hug:

I think the saying "mind over" matter really holds true.
Our bodies are what we eat, and our spiritual is what we feed it, and our heart corresponds to that. As do our actions and words.
If we allow ourselves to get down cause something sadened us, we become more miserable. Whether it was valid or not.

This is why it is so important to know how God relates to us, and how we relate to Him. IOW having a healthy relationship with Him, and trusting Him believing Him, having faith etc, is what shapes us, and keeps us going no matter what the circumstances.
He alone should be our measuring stick of perspective.

Walstib
May 2nd 2007, 09:47 PM
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Rev 12:11 KJV)

This verse I thought of right away. I do think that there is much to be gained from openly confessing the truths we stand on, the gospel, how we believe God has worked in our and other’s lives, so very importantly our sins before men, amongst other things.

Our testimony is not just how we came to know Jesus but every bit of our lives in Him. I know few people who came to know Jesus just through reading the scriptures and not by hearing the good news in Christ from another person. A sharing of their testimony and what Word they know. Defiantly one way to hear the Word of God as I see it, and come to faith.

The right way? I think confess everything you can think of to your spiritual family. Emotions and struggles, victory and blessings. While discerning who not to tell certain things to if they would use them against you. Then even failing in that can God can bring glory.

Peace,

Joe

Walstib
May 2nd 2007, 10:18 PM
I thought of an example of how I would say I do this in my life. I think of Jesus when tempted in the desert and how He spoke the truth to the devil defeating the attack. When I get attacked or tempted I speak some scripture that is the truth against the attack.

I am not changing myself/heart or making myself more saved. I am not speaking something into existence but just openly confirming the truth. When I have a brother come up to me under attack I speak some truth against the lie, or confirming a sin and can almost see that peace that is not emotional come over that person as I see it does in me.

Like speaking a prayer will not save you but praying to God when a lost sinner I think will often lead to God softening your heart. There is a kind of change that happens but not a change that determines salvation or forces something to happen.

Good topic,

Joe

karenoka27
May 2nd 2007, 10:27 PM
Joe that was a good point..The Bible tells us to come boldly before the throne..Hebrews 4:16. I am encouraged by this thread in that though I don't believe in name and claim it..I do believe that I have to believe that my God will answer me when I call on Him. I can verbalize that with words and with the way that I live. It's so easy to pray and then walk away discouraged. I've been praying a lot about not doing that anymore. The last trial I went through not too long ago, I was weary, but I kept my eyes on the Lord and just kept believing and confessing that my God is watching over me.

Ok, with that I'm off to prayer meeting! I am going to go and pray in faith with my words and in my heart. They are all lined up! Thanks Pilgrim!

Jesusinmyheart
May 2nd 2007, 11:22 PM
Karenoka,
there's a little truth to the name and claim it:

Joh 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.
Joh 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

Now before you get all bent out of shape, there's a condition, it's called "believe"

H539
אמן
'âman
BDB Definition:
1) to support, confirm, be faithful
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to support, confirm, be faithful, uphold, nourish
1a1a) foster-father (substantive)
1a1b) foster-mother, nurse
1a1c) pillars, supporters of the door
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be established, be faithful, be carried, make firm
1b1a) to be carried by a nurse
1b1b) made firm, sure, lasting
1b1c) confirmed, established, sure
1b1d) verified, confirmed
1b1e) reliable, faithful, trusty
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to stand firm, to trust, to be certain, to believe in
1c1a) stand firm
1c1b) trust, believe
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 116

G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

If a teacher tells you how to preserve your life, will you not follow His instructions ? If you don't you may at least get hurt, and if you're able to correct your error you're good to go, but what if you decide to follow those instructions when it's too late ?

This is what believing in God and Yeshua means, you would want to follow the instructions as best and as much in detail as you can, to be safe. To truly believe, is to act on that.

And if you do so, you are abiding in Him, and will be able to do the works He did, or greater even, and whatever you ask for He will do.

Stefen
May 2nd 2007, 11:32 PM
Hey guys, what about this?

Matthew 12

34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

If Jesus said it, I think it is true.

Jesusinmyheart
May 2nd 2007, 11:34 PM
I am not changing myself/heart or making myself more saved.

If you don't follow instructions how can you be saved ? True, grace is extended to us, but do you really think if we continue in unbelief we have eternal life ?

Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

Walstib
May 3rd 2007, 03:20 AM
JIMH,
You asked;
"If you don't follow instructions how can you be saved ? True, grace is extended to us, but do you really think if we continue in unbelief we have eternal life ?"

Is that what you think I think? I know I am not the best at explaining myself but those are some loaded questions. Let me put my vest on and get behind cover.... ;)

Me thinks the other post we are talking in is a better forum for this topic. In time I will get there....

Peace,

Joe

Edit: My context was that you are saved or not saved. It is like being pregnant. No half pregnacies and you can't get more pregnant once you are. If one can go back and forth (saved-unsaved-saved) is a third topic.....

karenoka27
May 3rd 2007, 03:27 AM
This thread may very well end up in Controversial Issues, but I want to start it here since it deals with the Bible and its content.

I would like your input on what the Bible says concerning the relationship between our words and our relationship with God. An often quoted Scripture in this context is "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God". What do you think this verse means in this context - if it has anything to do with it at all? What difference does it make if I confess the Word of God or if I confess my feelings or the situation around me? What is the right and Biblical way to deal with these issues?

I know the questions are many and they are broad, but why don't you start with the Scripture and we'll take it from there.
Just thought I would bring us back to the original question here...

If faith comes by hearing ...and it does...and hearing by the Word of God..what does this verse mean concerning our words and our relationship?
I believe our words should reflect the words of God. But they also should be there in the abundance of our heart, like a seed that was planted and it is well rooted. It reminds me of John Bunyan who wrote Pilgrim's Progress. It was said of him that if you pricked him with a pin he would bleed Bible. What an awesome thing to have someone say about you. He read the Word of God, he believed the Word of God, he spoke and wrote of the Word of God... if we believe the Word of God and believe there is power in it..Hebrews 4:12..then when we speak it, we believe that those are mighty powerful words!

Walstib
May 3rd 2007, 03:29 AM
Hey guys, what about this?

Matthew 12

If Jesus said it, I think it is true.

I think it is true as well... how do you see it relates to the topic... your context for posting the verses?

Peace,

Joe

Pilgrimtozion
May 3rd 2007, 06:59 AM
Just thought I would bring us back to the original question here...

If faith comes by hearing ...and it does...and hearing by the Word of God..what does this verse mean concerning our words and our relationship?
I believe our words should reflect the words of God. But they also should be there in the abundance of our heart, like a seed that was planted and it is well rooted. It reminds me of John Bunyan who wrote Pilgrim's Progress. It was said of him that if you pricked him with a pin he would bleed Bible. What an awesome thing to have someone say about you. He read the Word of God, he believed the Word of God, he spoke and wrote of the Word of God... if we believe the Word of God and believe there is power in it..Hebrews 4:12..then when we speak it, we believe that those are mighty powerful words!

I like that approach a lot better than an extreme focus on confessing words of faith: fill yourself with the Word of God, meditate on it, so that the Word of God is what will come out.

As far as the verse in Romans 10 is concerned (faith comes by hearing), is that verse not in the context of reaching the unreached? Within that context, would it not be safe to say that Paul is telling us that faith, i.e. a relationship with God, comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. As such, I don't think Paul is making a universal statement about how faith comes about - that is just pulling the verse out of context. Paul is simply saying that people cannot believe in God if you don't send somebody to preach to them.

Jesusinmyheart
May 3rd 2007, 10:48 AM
PilgrimtoZion,

I agree that in the immediate context it speaks to the reaching those who have not yet heard:

Rom 10:14 But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

Yet, i implore you to consider that it has a deeper meaning, and that the verse below can very well stand on it's own:
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Also, it talks about those who have heard and not obeyed previous to that:
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"

Isa 53:1 Who has believed what they heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

This is what i find so beautiful and amazing about the Word, there are many layers under the immediate picture one sees, kind of like a painting which you later discover had another more pricey painting underneath.

Another anology would be to liken the Word to a box inside another box, inside yet another box, which is in yet another box.....and each one holds a treasure.

So i do not believe reading that verse standing alone is ripping it out of context....

I discussed this a bit in another thread in Shorashim.

Pilgrimtozion
May 3rd 2007, 11:06 AM
PilgrimtoZion,

I agree that in the immediate context it speaks to the reaching those who have not yet heard:

Rom 10:14 But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

Yet, i implore you to consider that it has a deeper meaning, and that the verse below can very well stand on it's own:
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Also, it talks about those who have heard and not obeyed previous to that:
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"

Isa 53:1 Who has believed what they heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

This is what i find so beautiful and amazing about the Word, there are many layers under the immediate picture one sees, kind of like a painting which you later discover had another more pricey painting underneath.

Another anology would be to liken the Word to a box inside another box, inside yet another box, which is in yet another box.....and each one holds a treasure.

So i do not believe reading that verse standing alone is ripping it out of context....

I discussed this a bit in another thread in Shorashim.

Sure. I suppose the real problem comes in when people take this verse and then interpret is as saying that we need to just speak words of faith and that will accomplish stuff in and of itself, completely divorced from the state of the heart or the actual faith in what is being said. In this way, words are acccredited power that they do not have. That is where my problem lies.

Jesusinmyheart
May 3rd 2007, 11:13 AM
I see what you're saying, and that's not what i'm trying to say at all.

For clarification, i believe that everything God said is a heart matter, and a serious issue, not just mere words. I submit that the words in and of themselves do not have power, unless those words live and bear fruit in the heart, and manifest in outward deeds.

Pilgrimtozion
May 3rd 2007, 11:15 AM
I see what you're saying, and that's not what i'm trying to say at all.

For clarification, i believe that everything God said is a heart matter, and a serious issue, not just mere words. I submit that the words in and of themselves do not have power, unless those words live and bear fruit in the heart, and manifest in outward deeds.

Cool. Then we're on the same page. I, in turn, do not wish to deny that there is power in confessing that which God has placed in your heart. In fact, this discussion has made me realize in a deeper way the dire need to fill my heart continuously with the Word of God, so that the Word of God is also what will come out of my mouth.

karenoka27
May 3rd 2007, 11:43 AM
I like that approach a lot better than an extreme focus on confessing words of faith: fill yourself with the Word of God, meditate on it, so that the Word of God is what will come out.

As far as the verse in Romans 10 is concerned (faith comes by hearing), is that verse not in the context of reaching the unreached? Within that context, would it not be safe to say that Paul is telling us that faith, i.e. a relationship with God, comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. As such, I don't think Paul is making a universal statement about how faith comes about - that is just pulling the verse out of context. Paul is simply saying that people cannot believe in God if you don't send somebody to preach to them.

What about Romans 1:20-"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Pilgrimtozion
May 3rd 2007, 11:47 AM
What about Romans 1:20-"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Very good question. I'm afraid, however, that answering that will take this thread in a totally different direction... ;) But it's a good question.

karenoka27
May 3rd 2007, 11:55 AM
I didn't mean to do that...but I was just making a point to your Scripture reference. Ok..let's continue.:)