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Nolan Parker
May 2nd 2007, 07:38 PM
I have been wrestling with spiritual issues for over 30 years. I sooo want to feel saved & a part of the body of Christ. I am also way too weak & easily tempted to the point of giving in. I am very concerned with the verses in Hebrews I posted in the title. Hebrews 6 4-6 talks about the "IMpossibility" of those who once were enlightened to FALL away & then be allowed back thru repentance. I am worried that I had sufficient knowledge, understanding & experience & then , Not that I walked away from God, having decided Christ was deserving of being crucified. No way! I always fel guilt for everything I did, knowing it was wrong & sinful & that I was not behaving as I should. I prayed about it, BUT, I have suffered such horrible health & mental issues since, I cant help but wonder if God hasn't washed his hands of me. Can anyone reassure me, thru scripture, honestly? I don't want to be convinced "Everything is OKAY." if it's not true. If I need to be doing something to get right then that's what I need to hear. Thanks,

Teke
May 2nd 2007, 07:43 PM
As Jesus would say, "Fear not".:D

Hbr 13:5 [Let your] conversation without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, [B]I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

punk
May 2nd 2007, 08:17 PM
I think if you had truly fallen away so far that God had washed His hands of you that you wouldn't even be worrying about this. You would be living contentedly in a godless state.

The fact that this concerns you to this degree is a good thing (an unpleasant thing, but a good thing).

Set your shoulder to the plow and move forward with your work.

Saved7
May 2nd 2007, 09:32 PM
I"m with Punk here.

Also want to give you some helpful words to ponder....

But just as the physical man needs exercise to stay strong, so does the spiritual man. And the way to exercise the spiritual is through prayer and reading the Word DAILY!!!!!! And not just the same verse over and over. But the WHOLE WORD OF GOD!!!!


1Ti 4:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=4&verse=7&version=kjv#7)But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself [rather] unto godliness.1Ti 4:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=4&verse=8&version=kjv#8)For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.


Rom 12:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=12&verse=1&version=kjv#1)¶I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Rom/12/2.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Rom&chapter=12&verse=2&version=KJV#2)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=12&verse=2&version=KJV#2)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Rom&chapter=12&verse=2&version=KJV#2)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Rom&chapter=12&verse=2&version=KJV#2)
Rom 12:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=12&verse=2&version=kjv#2)And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


Eph 5:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eph&chapter=5&verse=26&version=kjv#26)That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Jhn 15:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=15&verse=3&version=kjv#3)Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.


Mat 8:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=8&verse=3&version=kjv#3)And Jesus put forth [his] hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

See how HIS WORD makes you clean?

Phl 4:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Phl&chapter=4&verse=8&version=kjv#8)¶Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.
Phl 4:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Phl&chapter=4&verse=9&version=kjv#9)Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.



Here's a little something to ponder, the word for "abide" could also mean to make your abode/home. LIVE in Him, and FEED off of the FOOD He provides.:saint:


Jhn 15:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=15&verse=4&version=kjv#4)Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

I hope these Words help you to be stronger in your walk with:saint: the Lord.

RogerW
May 2nd 2007, 11:05 PM
I have been wrestling with spiritual issues for over 30 years. I sooo want to feel saved & a part of the body of Christ. I am also way too weak & easily tempted to the point of giving in. I am very concerned with the verses in Hebrews I posted in the title. Hebrews 6 4-6 talks about the "IMpossibility" of those who once were enlightened to FALL away & then be allowed back thru repentance. I am worried that I had sufficient knowledge, understanding & experience & then , Not that I walked away from God, having decided Christ was deserving of being crucified. No way! I always fel guilt for everything I did, knowing it was wrong & sinful & that I was not behaving as I should. I prayed about it, BUT, I have suffered such horrible health & mental issues since, I cant help but wonder if God hasn't washed his hands of me. Can anyone reassure me, thru scripture, honestly? I don't want to be convinced "Everything is OKAY." if it's not true. If I need to be doing something to get right then that's what I need to hear. Thanks,

Heb 6:4 For (it is) impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Who is this talking to? I believe these verses are saying that for those in the Covenant Church (believers) who have received understanding from the Word of God, and have the Holy Spirit it is impossible for them to fall away. And if they could, there would be no repentance. They would become like Esau.

Heb 12:17 - For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

“It is”was added to vs. 4 for easier reading, but the vs. actually reads, “For impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, vs. 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, vs. 6 If they should fall away, to renew them again unto repentance”………

These are words of encouragement and consolation.

Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Impossible - 102 adunatos
1) without strength, impotent, powerless, weakly, disabled
2) unable to be done, impossible
Enlighten - 4561 photizo
1) to give light, to shine
2) to enlighten, light up, illumine
3) to bring to light, render evident
a) to cause something to exist and thus come to light and become clear to all
4) to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge
a) to instruct, to inform, teach
b) to give understanding to
Partakers - 3353 metochos
1) sharing in, partaking
2) a partner (in a work, office, dignity)

Properly understood these verses should not cause fear to the believer, but instead great words of comfort, for believers are called beloved, and assured of salvation because it is IMPOSSIBLE for believers to fall away.

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

RW

Stefen
May 2nd 2007, 11:24 PM
:no: I wrestled with the very same thing you are dealing with for years, and I finally found the solution. If you are interested let me no.

Joyfilled
May 3rd 2007, 01:15 AM
I have been wrestling with spiritual issues for over 30 years. I sooo want to feel saved & a part of the body of Christ. I am also way too weak & easily tempted to the point of giving in. I am very concerned with the verses in Hebrews I posted in the title. Hebrews 6 4-6 talks about the "IMpossibility" of those who once were enlightened to FALL away & then be allowed back thru repentance. I am worried that I had sufficient knowledge, understanding & experience & then , Not that I walked away from God, having decided Christ was deserving of being crucified. No way! I always fel guilt for everything I did, knowing it was wrong & sinful & that I was not behaving as I should. I prayed about it, BUT, I have suffered such horrible health & mental issues since, I cant help but wonder if God hasn't washed his hands of me. Can anyone reassure me, thru scripture, honestly? I don't want to be convinced "Everything is OKAY." if it's not true. If I need to be doing something to get right then that's what I need to hear. Thanks,

Don't let that frighten you, friend. Jesus tells us that "No one can snatch them out of my hand." John also tells us the "No one born of God continues to sin." That means that God will bring us out of sin as we confess our sins and have him replace them with forgiveness. So put those verses together with Hebrews and you get; only those who confess with their lips but don't believe with their hearts can fall away. That means that true born again believers cannot fall away. When we are weak, we ask God to keep us from temptation. But if we do fall into temptation, as John tells us, "if we confess our sins, then God is faithful and jsut to forgive us." :)

SemperReformanda
May 3rd 2007, 03:59 AM
Heb 6:4 For (it is) impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Who is this talking to? I believe these verses are saying that for those in the Covenant Church (believers) who have received understanding from the Word of God, and have the Holy Spirit it is impossible for them to fall away. And if they could, there would be no repentance. They would become like Esau.

Heb 12:17 - For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

“It is”was added to vs. 4 for easier reading, but the vs. actually reads, “For impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, vs. 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, vs. 6 If they should fall away, to renew them again unto repentance”………

These are words of encouragement and consolation.

Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Impossible - 102 adunatos
1) without strength, impotent, powerless, weakly, disabled
2) unable to be done, impossible
Enlighten - 4561 photizo
1) to give light, to shine
2) to enlighten, light up, illumine
3) to bring to light, render evident
a) to cause something to exist and thus come to light and become clear to all
4) to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge
a) to instruct, to inform, teach
b) to give understanding to
Partakers - 3353 metochos
1) sharing in, partaking
2) a partner (in a work, office, dignity)

Properly understood these verses should not cause fear to the believer, but instead great words of comfort, for believers are called beloved, and assured of salvation because it is IMPOSSIBLE for believers to fall away.

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

RW
Amen.

Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
(Hebrews 7:25)

Jesus, in his High Priestly role, does not make intercession for those who are going to go to Hell. If you draw near to God through Christ, you are saved to the uttermost, Jesus lives to make intercession for your sins and you are saved.

davidturtledove
May 3rd 2007, 08:59 AM
Hi Nolan,

Don't worry Nolan that scripture was not intended toward you. You have not been once and for all illumined yet. Love the Lord with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself and don't be afraid! Trust in the Lord!

Eaglenester
May 3rd 2007, 12:12 PM
I have been wrestling with spiritual issues for over 30 years. I sooo want to feel saved & a part of the body of Christ. I am also way too weak & easily tempted to the point of giving in. I am very concerned with the verses in Hebrews I posted in the title. Hebrews 6 4-6 talks about the "IMpossibility" of those who once were enlightened to FALL away & then be allowed back thru repentance. I am worried that I had sufficient knowledge, understanding & experience & then , Not that I walked away from God, having decided Christ was deserving of being crucified. No way! I always fel guilt for everything I did, knowing it was wrong & sinful & that I was not behaving as I should. I prayed about it, BUT, I have suffered such horrible health & mental issues since, I cant help but wonder if God hasn't washed his hands of me. Can anyone reassure me, thru scripture, honestly? I don't want to be coninvinced "Everything is OKAY." if it's not true. If I need to be doing something to get right then that's what I need to hear. Thanks,

In Scripture, God refers to His as sheep, and the lost are swine (pigs)

What is the difference between sheep and pigs?

BOTH get in the mud;
The pig likes to wallow in it...
The sheep justs wants to be cleaned.

Pilgrimtozion
May 3rd 2007, 12:55 PM
Hey my friend,

A lot of advice has been offered already. Let me just add this: I think it's essential to remember 1 John 1:9, which tells us that God will always forgive and cleanse us if we confess our sins to Him. God is loving, merciful, kind, and patient. He never gives up on you.

On the other hand, the warnings offered in Hebrews 6 and 10 should produce a healthy fear of the Lord in us. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God, and the Gospel is still a Gospel of not only believing with your head, but believing with your heart and showing that faith by living it out in obedience. God is not only loving but also holy - and we do well to remember that.

So don't be afraid - God loves you. But do live in a reverence and awe of a Holy God who has commanded us to be holy in all our behavior - it's not an option.

Sold Out
May 3rd 2007, 12:55 PM
To fix your problem, all you need to do is back up a few verses in Hebrews 5:12-14 & 6:1,2....

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."

You need to become an educated Christian, grounded in the foundational principles of scripture. The author of Hebrews points out that some are still BABIES in Christ, still sucking on the milk in the Ba-Ba, not moving on to eating spiritual meat in order to become mature.

You don't feel secure because you have no confidence/knowledge in what you believe and why. I know, because I used to feel the same way.

Hosea 4:6 says, "My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge."

This scripture in Hebrews gives us SIX doctrines in which we, as Christians, should have a firm grasp of:

1. Doctrine of Christ (His Deity)
2. Doctrine of Repentance
3. Doctrine of Baptisms (plural)
4. Doctrine of Laying on of Hands (Power)
5. Doctrine of Resurrections & Rewards
6. Doctrine of Hell (eternal punishment)

I did a several month bible study with my pastor on these doctrines, and it changed my life. I feel so empowered with knowledge of the scriptures and discernment from the Holy Spirit!

Stefen
May 3rd 2007, 05:10 PM
I'm sorry but alot of scripture has been posted out of context. Especially 1 John. John is not talking about an everyday confession but only one confession. Read the whole epistle in its context. The whole message of that epsistle is God is light and in Him there is no darkness and if God is in you then you are not in darkness.

If someone has become a partaker of Gods power and fall's away, then yes there is no way to renew them to repentence. From the sound of what I have heard in this thread alot of people have not been partakers of of that, and I say that out of love. God gives his spirit without measure, he lives in you and supernaturally lives a holy life through you. Peter in his epistle says we can partake of God's divine nature. I believe these truth's to the fullest. If you have the all mighty spirit of God in you can live holy for the rest of your life, but what you have to realize is that Jesus supplies this to everyone, you only have t believe it. For to long has man brought Gods way down to there own capabilities and try to make his word fit what there flesh is able to do. Remember that we could not save our selves from the penalty of sin, so god did it for us. Do you think that he would pay the penalty of sin and then leave us the way we were?

Romans 5:10

for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.

Now if you will recieve it, he will live in you too. You will be in Christ and Him in you. I no longer live but Christ lives in me, what do you think he mean by that. In almost every epsitle we are told about holy living by the spirit of God. We die to the flesh and no longer fulfill the desires of the flesh because we walk by the spirit and not the flesh. if we still continue to twalk in the flessh then we have not been norn of the spirit.

John 3:3

6that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus provieds all that we need to live a holy life, we only half to believe in him and recieve his fulness. Do not doubt the Son of God, and do not concentrate on you on abilities, it's not about what you can do but what He can do in you.

Pilgrimtozion
May 3rd 2007, 05:26 PM
I'm sorry but alot of scripture has been posted out of context. Especially 1 John. John is not talking about an everyday confession but only one confession. Read the whole epistle in its context. The whole message of that epsistle is God is light and in Him there is no darkness.

Let's look at the context of 1 John 1:9:

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous."

Who is John writing to? Believers! What does he write? That if we confess our sins, God is faithful to forgive us. Why does He write this? So that we may not sin, but if we do, we have an Advocate with the Father.

The context seems clear to me and the usage of the Scripture in answer to the OP's enquiry stands.

Toolman
May 3rd 2007, 05:38 PM
I agree with Stefen here regarding 1 John 1:9 (not neccessarily the rest of his view). John's statement is a statement of justification and not of sanctification.

John was addressing the gnostic concepts that Jesus was really resurrected a "spirit" being, not a true physical human and that the idea of sin was really a lie and the truth (gnosis) was that the material world (and sin) is a lie to deceive us.

John makes the general statement that those who confess (agree) with God concerning their sinful nature will be forgiven and cleansed (Justification).

This was written to believers just like Romans 10:9-10 was written to believers. Both are synonymous statements of justification (one time) that occurs when we agree with God concerning our sin and His Son as our Saviour.

Stefen
May 3rd 2007, 05:40 PM
Let's look at the context of 1 John 1:9:

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous."

Who is John writing to? Believers! What does he write? That if we confess our sins, God is faithful to forgive us. Why does He write this? So that we may not sin, but if we do, we have an Advocate with the Father.

The context seems clear to me and the usage of the Scripture in answer to the OP's enquiry stands.

I can only tell you the truth, if you want to build a doctrine from one verse you can do that, or you can take the epistle in it's entirety, plus you are reading this out of context.

Pilgrimtozion
May 3rd 2007, 05:52 PM
I can only tell you the truth, if you want to build a doctrine from one verse you can do that, or you can take the epistle in it's entirety, plus you are reading this out of context.

I'm sorry, I do not have the pleasure of understanding what you are talking about. I wasn't aware that I was building a doctrine, nor was I conscious of the fact that it was being on done on only one verse. As far as I could tell, I was merely laying out the immediate context of 1 John 1:9 so that we can better understand what John is saying here.

But let us not derail the thread here into a discussion on 1 John 1:9. Let us agree to disagree - and if that does not satisfy you, start a thread on it and we will discuss it until the cows come home! ;)

Stefen
May 3rd 2007, 06:00 PM
I'm sorry, I do not have the pleasure of understanding what you are talking about. I wasn't aware that I was building a doctrine, nor was I conscious of the fact that it was being on done on only one verse. As far as I could tell, I was merely laying out the immediate context of 1 John 1:9 so that we can better understand what John is saying here.

But let us not derail the thread here into a discussion on 1 John 1:9. Let us agree to disagree - and if that does not satisfy you, start a thread on it and we will discuss it until the cows come home! ;)

Good Idea.:saint:

Dez-troy-a
May 3rd 2007, 06:09 PM
Yo bruv,

Do you know how much God loves you? I believe you do. Well refer to the lost son, Luke 15:11, and the lost sheep. God still wants that relationship you have with him. Yep, he still does and so do you.

Your spirit is strong but ur body is weak, matt 26:41. You need to ask the holyspirit for fortification. Pray that things like this dont distract you.

I have a lil word for you. Its the picture of a man holding a ceramic pot with flowers. He walks happily with it around showing it to people. Then at the end of the day, he gets less enticed by the pot and drops it by mistake. Now he sits worrying and crying beside the pieces of potery and sand, giving it his whole attention. But a potter stands behind him, he says "turn your eyes to me, and i shall made the pieces whole; even more beautiful than before.....you just have to look to me, not the piece!!"

I feel you are getting distracted from God by things the devil put your way. COME ONNNN! YOU ARE A WARRIOR! YOU DONT KNOW DEFEAT, FOR THE DEVIL HAS BEEN DEFEATED! YOU SHALL NOT BE CONQUERED, BUT SUCCEED TO DECLARE THE GLORY OF GOD!" ;) its my little slogan:) . Any way, may the holyspirit grant you wisdom and understanding for the advices you are given and what you read in the bible.

Just adding to EAGLENESTERS'. Pigs will return to the mud, at least a lot more than the sheep would. So dont you even look back at what has happened. If God forgives you, Jesus' blood washes all history of your sticky sin away. Trust me, God is probably wondering y u are looking back a your past mishaps whilse there is nothing there to look at.

Peace out!

Frances
May 3rd 2007, 06:41 PM
I am worried that I had sufficient knowledge, understanding & experience & then , . . . . I always fel guilt for everything I did, knowing it was wrong & sinful & that I was not behaving as I should. I prayed about it, BUT, I have suffered such horrible health & mental issues since, I cant help but wonder if God hasn't washed his hands of me.

My friend, as well as 'knowledge, understanding and experience' of God and His Way have you had a relationship with Him all these years? or just a religious conviction of what is right and wrong?

At some time in the past did you repent (turn away from) all your Sin trusting Jesus Christ to have died on the Cross specifically to pay your penalty for your Sin? Did you realise that as He rose from the dead, if you have repented and accepted His Sacrifice for you personally, you can rise to New Life with Him? Have you asked God to fill you to overflowing with His Holy Spirit in the same way that He filled Jesus' disciples at Pentecost? Are you determined to please Him no mattter what? If so, He longs to give you His Strength to withstand temptation. . . . but it is not given in advance - it is only given as you demonstrate your determination to resist temptation. And each time you resist temptation you will be more able to resist the next time. (the longest walk starts with a single step)

I fully expect to end up in Heaven, and I now expect to meet you there, because you will overcome your temptations if you cling to Jesus. . . (health problems are just part of living in this fallen world)

(Pilgrimtozion's posts are worth noting).

Righton
May 4th 2007, 03:31 PM
Heb 6:4 For (it is) impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Who is this talking to? I believe these verses are saying that for those in the Covenant Church (believers) who have received understanding from the Word of God, and have the Holy Spirit it is impossible for them to fall away. And if they could, there would be no repentance. They would become like Esau.

Heb 12:17 - For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

“It is”was added to vs. 4 for easier reading, but the vs. actually reads, “For impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, vs. 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, vs. 6 If they should fall away, to renew them again unto repentance”………

These are words of encouragement and consolation.

Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Impossible - 102 adunatos
1) without strength, impotent, powerless, weakly, disabled
2) unable to be done, impossible
Enlighten - 4561 photizo
1) to give light, to shine
2) to enlighten, light up, illumine
3) to bring to light, render evident
a) to cause something to exist and thus come to light and become clear to all
4) to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge
a) to instruct, to inform, teach
b) to give understanding to
Partakers - 3353 metochos
1) sharing in, partaking
2) a partner (in a work, office, dignity)

Properly understood these verses should not cause fear to the believer, but instead great words of comfort, for believers are called beloved, and assured of salvation because it is IMPOSSIBLE for believers to fall away.

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

RW

You're misreading it, Roger. The text says, for clarification...

"For it is impossible... to renew them again to repentance."

This is not saying it is impossible to fall from grace. It is saying it is impossible for those who fall away to then be saved. The OP got it right, that part of it.

I am very GLAD this passage is found in the New Testament [there are others but this one suffices]. Some people preach that you can never fall away. This is destructive teaching. Yes, you CAN fall away! You MUST remain faithful to the word of God. Read 2 Timothy 4:10a. The Hebrew writer is saying that once you DO fall away, all that is left for you is the Judgment, and on the wrong side of it!

"Whoever thinks he is standing firm must be careful he does not fall." I forget where it is exactly [my next scheduled one-year Bible reading is next year... something I do every five years], but believe me, it's in there. I think Paul said it. Jesus Christ talks about those who fall. And he speaks of the punishment that will come to those who cause others to fall away. What does James 5: 19-20 say in your version? It says in mine that if someone falls away and someone else brings him back, the bringer back will bring about the forgiveness of many sins. How can the first fellow fall away if you can't do such a thing?

Don't forget, we still have free will. If it's up to us to accept Christ, it is also up to us to reject Christ. Don't believe that you can never fall away, that is a lie of Satan's.

But I say to the Nolan Parker, you have some good advice in here, and I can add nothing. The best one IMO was if you had truly fallen away, you wouldn't be so concerned about it.

BUT, I would add that something is not right in your life if you are afraid. Here is a scripture I go by, and it is well worth remembering:

1 John 4:
16b God is love, and those who live in love live in union with God and God lives in union with them. 17 Love is made perfect in us in order that we may have courage on the Judgment Day; and we will have it because our life in this world is the same as Christ's. 18 There is no fear in love; perfect love drives out all fear. So then, love has not been made perfect in anyone who is afraid, because fear has to do with punishment.

And with this in mind, God will NEVER wash His hands of someone. He will never leave us, nor ever forsake us. But if you have a hard time addressing Him over some sin, I'd say find someone you trust and can talk to face-to-face over your fears. Talk to this individual, preferably of the same sex, and tell him/her what you are going through. For it sounds like you need more than prayers and internet strangers. Truth be told, people on-line can help, but often we need others we can see face-to-face. If you don't have someone you can talk to directly about this, I'd say maybe see a counselor, or maybe a pastor. Just be careful you don't get someone who will simply reassure you and tell you you're not so bad after all. You sound like you need to make some confessions, and you don't want to do that too much on-line.

I will keep you in my prayers Nolan, and may the LORD bless you for seeking Him.

Righton
May 4th 2007, 03:43 PM
Don't let that frighten you, friend. Jesus tells us that "No one can snatch them out of my hand." John also tells us the "No one born of God continues to sin." That means that God will bring us out of sin as we confess our sins and have him replace them with forgiveness. So put those verses together with Hebrews and you get; only those who confess with their lips but don't believe with their hearts can fall away. That means that true born again believers cannot fall away. When we are weak, we ask God to keep us from temptation. But if we do fall into temptation, as John tells us, "if we confess our sins, then God is faithful and jsut to forgive us." :)

Mmmm... joyfilled...

You say true believers can't fall away, THEN you say "if we confess." So, uh, what if we do NOT confess?!? :(

SemperReformanda
May 4th 2007, 11:19 PM
Mmmm... joyfilled...

You say true believers can't fall away, THEN you say "if we confess." So, uh, what if we do NOT confess?!? :(
Man cannot confess, unless he is saved. I was saved at the cross, while I hated God. John 6 tells me I cannot be taken away from Jesus. Are you suggesting that in John 6:39 Jesus is suggesting that He might not be able to do the Father's will?

RogerW
May 5th 2007, 12:39 AM
You're misreading it, Roger. The text says, for clarification...

"For it is impossible... to renew them again to repentance."

This is not saying it is impossible to fall from grace. It is saying it is impossible for those who fall away to then be saved. The OP got it right, that part of it.

I am very GLAD this passage is found in the New Testament [there are others but this one suffices]. Some people preach that you can never fall away. This is destructive teaching. Yes, you CAN fall away! You MUST remain faithful to the word of God. Read 2 Timothy 4:10a. The Hebrew writer is saying that once you DO fall away, all that is left for you is the Judgment, and on the wrong side of it!

"Whoever thinks he is standing firm must be careful he does not fall." I forget where it is exactly [my next scheduled one-year Bible reading is next year... something I do every five years], but believe me, it's in there. I think Paul said it. Jesus Christ talks about those who fall. And he speaks of the punishment that will come to those who cause others to fall away. What does James 5: 19-20 say in your version? It says in mine that if someone falls away and someone else brings him back, the bringer back will bring about the forgiveness of many sins. How can the first fellow fall away if you can't do such a thing?

Don't forget, we still have free will. If it's up to us to accept Christ, it is also up to us to reject Christ. Don't believe that you can never fall away, that is a lie of Satan's.

Consider another translation:

He 6:4-6 For impossible for those who were once enlightened, besides tasting the celestial gratuity, and becoming partakers of holy spirit, and tasting the ideal declaration of God, as well as the powers of the future eon, and falling aside, to be renewing them again to repentance while crucifying for themselves the Son of God again and holding Him up to infamy.

This would be saying it is possible for those who fall away to be saved if it were not telling us it is IMPOSSIBLE. This is assuring us that it is impossible to fall away once you have become saved. Why is it impossible? Because Christ will not again be put to the open shame He endured once on the cross [I]Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. The offering of the body of Christ was once, but if we could fall away, then to be renewed again Christ would have to suffer often to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself (Heb. 9:26).

There is only one sin for which there is no forgiveness according to the words of Christ. That sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. This sin was committed by the Pharisee’s when they knowingly accused Christ of casting out demons under the power of Beelzebub the prince of the devils. The Pharisee's knew that Christ was sent from God, and yet they falsely accused Him of being under the power of the devil out of jealousy.

Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

This verse is not proof a believer can fall away. There are many outward professing Christians who in reality had never become partakers of the Holy Spirit. John shows us those professing to be part of the body of Christ, but who are never really in Christ. The proof they were never in Christ is the fact that they departed just as Demas did.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
John says, but you have the Holy Spirit, and you know all things.
1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Those who have the Holy Spirit and know the truth continue in the faith, because Christ will finish the good work in you, keeping you until the day of the Lord.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

I believe the passage you were seeking is 1Co 10:12.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

This passage is not talking about falling from salvation. It’s talking about falling into sinful behavior, or being tempted to commit sin. The very next verse shows us that though we may be tempted, God is faithful, and will not let us be tempted above that we are able, and when we are tempted to sin, He graciously provides a way to escape, that we may be able to bear it.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Reading James 5:19-20 in context we discover this is speaking of converting a brother who has erred from the truth. This brother has NOT lost his salvation, he has simply erred because he was subject to the same passions as Elias. The context is talking about praying for an erring brother because he has confessed his faults. The prayer of a righteous man for his erring brother can convert the one who is sinning from the error of his way, and save his soul from death. This does not say one has lost his salvation, it simply says that even though we are saved we still struggle against sin.

Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Jas 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
Jas 5:18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

I understand how you think you can lose your salvation. If you believe your salvation depended upon your free will choice to receive Christ, then it stands to reason how you could think your own free will can cause you to lose your salvation. On the other hand if my salvation is of Christ alone, nothing from me, since He did the saving, He has saved me to the uttermost, and nothing will ever separate me from His love. As you have said, God will never leave nor forsake His own. So how could we fall away from salvation?

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

The real lie from Satan is that I have free will to choose Him or reject Him, and if I use my free will, and choose to reject Him there is no salvation for me. If you think this thought through I hope you will realize that if this is true, then there is NO salvation for any of us, because we all reject Christ until we are saved by grace through faith, not of ourselves: it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8).

RW

Pilgrimtozion
May 5th 2007, 04:42 AM
So Righton and RogerW,

What advice would you give the OP based on your view of these Scriptures that you've just talked about?

Benjamin

RogerW
May 5th 2007, 06:36 PM
I have been wrestling with spiritual issues for over 30 years. I sooo want to feel saved & a part of the body of Christ. I am also way too weak & easily tempted to the point of giving in. I am very concerned with the verses in Hebrews I posted in the title. Hebrews 6 4-6 talks about the "IMpossibility" of those who once were enlightened to FALL away & then be allowed back thru repentance. I am worried that I had sufficient knowledge, understanding & experience & then , Not that I walked away from God, having decided Christ was deserving of being crucified. No way! I always fel guilt for everything I did, knowing it was wrong & sinful & that I was not behaving as I should. I prayed about it, BUT, I have suffered such horrible health & mental issues since, I cant help but wonder if God hasn't washed his hands of me. Can anyone reassure me, thru scripture, honestly? I don't want to be convinced "Everything is OKAY." if it's not true. If I need to be doing something to get right then that's what I need to hear. Thanks,

Benjamin asks me, "What advice would you give the OP based on your view of these Scriptures that you've just talked about?"

I would ask a question meant to be rhetorical. Do you believe in your heart that your sins are forgiven? Again! Do you really, truly believe in your heart that your sins are forgiven? You see sometimes it's not a matter of our knowing that Christ has forgiven us, sometimes we just can't seem to find a way to forgive ourselves. So, we tend to fall again and again into sinful behavior, or sinful attitudes because in our heart we figure what the heck, after all we're not really forgiven anyway. Of course this is usually on a very sub-conscience level. The answer is found in constant assurance that all of our sins really are totally forgiven when we are in Christ.

When you are in Christ you have power from on high. With every temptation God provides a way of escape.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Stop becoming discouraged by how short we sometimes fall from the glory of God. Confess your sin, for He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. Again, rhetorically, are you afraid to take God at His promise? Refuse to view Jesus as just another man. No sin is so great that He cannot forgive.

RW

Righton
May 6th 2007, 06:44 PM
Man cannot confess, unless he is saved. I was saved at the cross, while I hated God. John 6 tells me I cannot be taken away from Jesus. Are you suggesting that in John 6:39 Jesus is suggesting that He might not be able to do the Father's will?

My Bible quotes, easier than doing it myself as I have been doing it, come from:

http://www.biblegateway.com/

This is an excellent source for scripture-quoting.

"39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

NIV

Yes, it is the Father's will that none shall be lost. But there are those who will be. Remember someone named Judas Iscariot? That passage came AFTER Jesus had called Judas.

I would say it is true you cannot be taken away. You can, however, choose to leave Him, Semper.

Righton
May 6th 2007, 06:52 PM
Roger, you've posted too much information for this thread, IMO. It would be better to discuss this elsewhere. If I were to respond to all you've said, any readers of this would get lost.

To make it simpler, I'd say deal with just the passage presented us. And this passage tells us it is possible to fall away.

If you want to discuss all this further, I'd suggest another forum. You can keep what you've written, and I'm not trying to dodge here, but how about pasting it elsewhere? If you decide to do that, please post a reply to this thread so I can know where you've taken it.

"So Righton and RogerW,

What advice would you give the OP based on your view of these Scriptures that you've just talked about?

Benjamin"

I feel I have, Benjamin, in my earlier reply.

RogerW
May 6th 2007, 07:56 PM
Righton,

Are you created? I hope you would say 'Yes' human beings are created. Paul, in his epistle to the Romans asks, "Who shall separate us from the love of the Christ?" In his answer Paul tells us not only who, but what, and then sums it all up by saying nothing created can separate us from the love of God. Since humans are created beings how could we choose to leave Him? Wouldn't that mean that there is some created thing that can separate His own from His love? Wouldn't that contradict what Paul clearly tells will never happen?

Ro 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of the Christ? tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Ro 8:36 (according as it hath been written--`For Thy sake we are put to death all the day long, we were reckoned as sheep of slaughter,')
Ro 8:37 but in all these we more than conquer, through him who loved us;
Ro 8:38 for I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor messengers, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present,
Ro 8:39 nor things about to be, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of god, that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You can go through the Bible and find several verses that appear to say we can fall away, or lose our salvation, but unless you can reconcile that opinion with passages like those above then there MUST be something wrong with your understanding, because the Bible absolutely DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF!

I have dealt with the passage presented from the OP. I've shown how we can find comfort from this passage when we KNOW we are in Christ. You have presented a doctrine that contradicts much of Scripture, and gives no assurance of peace that surpasses all understanding. Where is comfort and peace in a doctrine that teaches I am the master of my eternal destiny, and since I am an imperfect being, I have no real hope, no real peace, no real joy because I am prone to lose everything I, ME, MYSELF have worked so hard to accomplish?

But knowing with blessed assurance that it is Christ alone Who saved me, and keeps me in His grace and mercy no matter how many times I stumble and fall, this my friend is the only doctrine of assurance and hope. When we are in Christ, we hate sinful behavior and grieve when we sin. When we are in Christ, we desire to seek Him often in prayer, and we long to know Him better through His Word. When we are in Christ we desire to be among the people of God. The most important thing the OP can do to find the peace he longs for is to get in the Word, and get on his knees, for we have the promise from God that when we love Him with all our hearts, mind, strength and soul then we are not far from the reign of God.

In Ro 8:28 Paul tells us that to those who love God all things work together for good. If we could fall away, lose our salvation how is that working together for our good?

RW

Righton
May 6th 2007, 09:36 PM
I think our discussion went way off topic from the subject of this thread. I have opened this debate here:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1251987#post1251987

This is the apologetics board. I'd be curious what you, and others, have to say about this. I just opened this up a moment ago. As far as I know, this would be the place to discuss this topic. Please move your posts there and I'll be happy to discuss them, as I'm sure other will as well.

SemperReformanda
May 6th 2007, 10:50 PM
I'd like to discuss this here, if it is ok with you. I think it is very pertinent to the OP, as they are struggling with assurance.


"39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

NIV

Yes, it is the Father's will that none shall be lost. But there are those who will be. Remember someone named Judas Iscariot? That passage came AFTER Jesus had called Judas.
So, in your reasoning, the chain goes like this:

1. God gives all people everywhere to the son (Scripture?)
2. The son calls everyone to himself.
3. The son knows the fathers will that all the people he has given him will be saved.
4. The son somehow fails to do the father's will by losing some of those whom he had been given.

So, in this passage, Jesus is explaining the Jews' unbelief by telling them that they have slipped away from him because he failed to keep them? In doing so you are decimating other verses in the same discourse, such as:

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
(John 6:37)

So, by your chain of logic then, every single person in the world is saved, seeing as the Father gives everybody to the son, all the father gives the son will come to Jesus, and he will never cast out any of those very same people. Don't you see that you are really making a mess of what Jesus is saying here?


I would say it is true you cannot be taken away. You can, however, choose to leave Him, Semper.
Where does Jesus say this in the passage (John 6) we are discussing?

Tying it in with the OP, if I am handling John 6 with the correct Biblical hermeneutic, then what does that mean for Hebrews 6? If we read it with the understanding that those who come to Jesus will never be cast out, then what does Hebrews 6 mean?

Obviously not what you are trying to say, that you can in some way lose your salvation.

Faithwalker
May 7th 2007, 12:10 AM
Nolan perhaps it would help to gain a better understanding of this passage if you were to read it in another scripture version. I think this particular passage correlates with 2Pe 2:20-22

Reading in context, I understand the author here to be talking about the same principle of sowing and reaping, as written about in Gal 6:7-8 or what choices we continue to make (sowing) if you will.

This is what the Spirit is given to us for, the Spirit promps us, to choose the right, when the flesh only wants us to choose the wrong. Without the Holy Spirit, there is no hope for any of us, we will continually go the wrong way, and it is impossible to choose otherwise.
We cant even come to God unless His Spirit draws us!

But take consolation in Hebs 7:25
"Therefore, because he always lives to intercede for them, he is able to save completely those who come to God through him"

As one poster already said, you must be filled with the Spirit, walk in the Spirit, be led of the Spirit, you will never overcome your flesh any other way. As Paul so rightly said, and to which I can testify, theres no such thing as the flesh producing good seeds, or life. (Romans 7:18)

This is the ISV version:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible to keep on restoring to repentance time and again people who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have become sharers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 who have tasted the goodness of God's word and the powers of the coming age,
Heb 6:6 and who have fallen away, as long as they continue to crucify to themselves the Son of God and to expose him to public ridicule.
->Heb 6:7 For when the ground soaks up rain that often falls on it and continues producing vegetation useful to those for whom it is cultivated, it receives a blessing from God.
Heb 6:8 However, if it continues to produce thorns and thistles, it is worthless and in danger of being cursed, and in the end will be burned.
Heb 6:9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case, things that point to salvation.
Heb 6:10 For God is not so unjust as to forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have ministered to the saints and continue to minister to them.
Heb 6:11 But we want each of you to continue to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to give full assurance to your hope.
Heb 6:12 Then, instead of being lazy, you will become imitators of those who are inheriting the promises through faith and patience.

Soak up the Spirit that God is so willing to let 'often fall on you!'
You soak by going continually into His presence.

fellowservant
May 7th 2007, 12:56 AM
Hi im a returning christian, i too was discourage with this same passage of scriptures you are mentioning. Dont let this bother you unless you are backsliding, if you are backsliding then take it to heart. But if your are returning to Christ, and God knows you are. Then read Hebrews 6 in its entirety and in all its context.


Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Heb 6:10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Now im blessed of God, you will be too, if you hold on with full assurace of hope. Praise the lord, i was just listening to a song before i read this called i am blessed. And i felt the presence of the lord rest on me, so take that to heart as well.

God can put fear into our hearts if we are disobedient, be faithfull and God will see you through. He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Be faithful to him, he is a real friend once you get to know him. He even told me he loved me by my TV once.:hug: He is a mighty God we serve...


God bless

Righton
May 8th 2007, 02:18 PM
I'd like to discuss this here, if it is ok with you. I think it is very pertinent to the OP, as they are struggling with assurance.

Well, if y'all want to discuss this here, okay. I was just concerned the original message would get lost.


So, in your reasoning, the chain goes like this:

1. God gives all people everywhere to the son (Scripture?)
2. The son calls everyone to himself.
3. The son knows the fathers will that all the people he has given him will be saved.
4. The son somehow fails to do the father's will by losing some of those whom he had been given.

No, not lose. Some will choose to leave on their own. Note: I mentioned Judas Iscariot. Why are you ignoring what I said?


So, in this passage, Jesus is explaining the Jews' unbelief by telling them that they have slipped away from him because he failed to keep them? In doing so you are decimating other verses in the same discourse, such as:

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
(John 6:37)

So, by your chain of logic then, every single person in the world is saved, seeing as the Father gives everybody to the son, all the father gives the son will come to Jesus, and he will never cast out any of those very same people. Don't you see that you are really making a mess of what Jesus is saying here?

You're making things more difficult, Semper. It has nothing to do with Christ's failings and everything to do with our own. There are passages outside of what the OP mentioned but first you are ignoring this one.


Where does Jesus say this in the passage (John 6) we are discussing?

Tying it in with the OP, if I am handling John 6 with the correct Biblical hermeneutic, then what does that mean for Hebrews 6? If we read it with the understanding that those who come to Jesus will never be cast out, then what does Hebrews 6 mean?

Obviously not what you are trying to say, that you can in some way lose your salvation.

You will never be cast out, you cannot "lose" your salvation. You can, however, choose to leave. That is what this is about. And if you choose to leave, you will not be allowed back in, that's all I [and the Hebrew writer] am saying. You can "lose" your salvation in the context that if you leave the faith, if you go back and crucify the LORD Jesus Christ all over again, you WILL be banned from Heaven on Judgment Day.

Righton
May 8th 2007, 02:47 PM
Roger, I'm still getting used to this board. I figured by what I thought I had read in the rules that they want subjects to remain on-topic, but seeing Semper's other reply, I guess it is okay.

My problem is, you are ignoring this passage to discuss other stuff.


Consider another translation:

He 6:4-6 For impossible for those who were once enlightened, besides tasting the celestial gratuity, and becoming partakers of holy spirit, and tasting the ideal declaration of God, as well as the powers of the future eon, and falling aside, to be renewing them again to repentance while crucifying for themselves the Son of God again and holding Him up to infamy.

This would be saying it is possible for those who fall away to be saved if it were not telling us it is IMPOSSIBLE. This is assuring us that it is impossible to fall away once you have become saved. Why is it impossible? Because Christ will not again be put to the open shame He endured once on the cross [I]Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. The offering of the body of Christ was once, but if we could fall away, then to be renewed again Christ would have to suffer often to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself (Heb. 9:26).

This passage means they are figuratively putting Christ back on the cross, not literally.


There is only one sin for which there is no forgiveness according to the words of Christ. That sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. This sin was committed by the Pharisee’s when they knowingly accused Christ of casting out demons under the power of Beelzebub the prince of the devils. The Pharisee's knew that Christ was sent from God, and yet they falsely accused Him of being under the power of the devil out of jealousy.

Are you saying, then, that only these pharisees shall be condemned on the Judgment Day? What are you saying here, Roger? What does this have to do with the topic at hand?


Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

AND? I'm sorry, what does this have to do with falling away?


2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

This verse is not proof a believer can fall away. There are many outward professing Christians who in reality had never become partakers of the Holy Spirit. John shows us those professing to be part of the body of Christ, but who are never really in Christ. The proof they were never in Christ is the fact that they departed just as Demas did.

Prove that Demas was never in the spirit. He was with Paul. You mean Paul could not have been able to tell who was a partaker of the Holy Spirit and who was not?

I'm curious, Roger. Are you a Baptist?


1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
John says, but you have the Holy Spirit, and you know all things.
1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Those who have the Holy Spirit and know the truth continue in the faith, because Christ will finish the good work in you, keeping you until the day of the Lord.

This does not say it is impossible to fall away. We still have to do our parts.


Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

Hallelujah! So?


I believe the passage you were seeking is 1Co 10:12.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

This passage is not talking about falling from salvation. It’s talking about falling into sinful behavior, or being tempted to commit sin. The very next verse shows us that though we may be tempted, God is faithful, and will not let us be tempted above that we are able, and when we are tempted to sin, He graciously provides a way to escape, that we may be able to bear it.

And where do you get this? Why ISN'T it talking about salvation? Yes, but what of those who DO give in to temptation?


1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Reading James 5:19-20 in context we discover this is speaking of converting a brother who has erred from the truth. This brother has NOT lost his salvation, he has simply erred because he was subject to the same passions as Elias. The context is talking about praying for an erring brother because he has confessed his faults. The prayer of a righteous man for his erring brother can convert the one who is sinning from the error of his way, and save his soul from death. This does not say one has lost his salvation, it simply says that even though we are saved we still struggle against sin.

Where do you get that? What makes you say he has not lost his salvation?


Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Jas 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
Jas 5:18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

And how do you interpret "convert" here?


I understand how you think you can lose your salvation. If you believe your salvation depended upon your free will choice to receive Christ, then it stands to reason how you could think your own free will can cause you to lose your salvation. On the other hand if my salvation is of Christ alone, nothing from me, since He did the saving, He has saved me to the uttermost, and nothing will ever separate me from His love. As you have said, God will never leave nor forsake His own. So how could we fall away from salvation?

So there's NOTHING you have done for your salvation? You have not accepted or believed what Christ has said? He just waved a magic wand and POOF!! you were saved?

How about your actually addressing the passage itself, Roger? You tell me it is not as it is written, but what DOES it mean, then?


Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

The real lie from Satan is that I have free will to choose Him or reject Him, and if I use my free will, and choose to reject Him there is no salvation for me. If you think this thought through I hope you will realize that if this is true, then there is NO salvation for any of us, because we all reject Christ until we are saved by grace through faith, not of ourselves: it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8).

RW

Of COURSE if you choose to reject Christ you will be condemned!

See, this is what I was talking about, about being off-topic. Faith vs. works, etc., this is different from what the OP stated. It needs its own thread.

Righton
May 8th 2007, 03:05 PM
Righton,

Are you created? I hope you would say 'Yes' human beings are created. Paul, in his epistle to the Romans asks, "Who shall separate us from the love of the Christ?" In his answer Paul tells us not only who, but what, and then sums it all up by saying nothing created can separate us from the love of God. Since humans are created beings how could we choose to leave Him? Wouldn't that mean that there is some created thing that can separate His own from His love? Wouldn't that contradict what Paul clearly tells will never happen?

You're confusing our leaving the faith with some external force. Paul is talking about something else here, not our deliberately turning away from the faith.


Ro 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of the Christ? tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Ro 8:36 (according as it hath been written--`For Thy sake we are put to death all the day long, we were reckoned as sheep of slaughter,')
Ro 8:37 but in all these we more than conquer, through him who loved us;
Ro 8:38 for I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor messengers, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present,
Ro 8:39 nor things about to be, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of god, that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You can go through the Bible and find several verses that appear to say we can fall away, or lose our salvation, but unless you can reconcile that opinion with passages like those above then there MUST be something wrong with your understanding, because the Bible absolutely DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF!

I have dealt with the passage presented from the OP. I've shown how we can find comfort from this passage when we KNOW we are in Christ. You have presented a doctrine that contradicts much of Scripture, and gives no assurance of peace that surpasses all understanding. Where is comfort and peace in a doctrine that teaches I am the master of my eternal destiny, and since I am an imperfect being, I have no real hope, no real peace, no real joy because I am prone to lose everything I, ME, MYSELF have worked so hard to accomplish?

"Matthew 25:20-22 (New International Version)

20The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.'

21"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

According to this passage, we are rewarded by Christ for remaining faithful to Him. Take note that remaining faithful is a work, something we must DO!


But knowing with blessed assurance that it is Christ alone Who saved me, and keeps me in His grace and mercy no matter how many times I stumble and fall, this my friend is the only doctrine of assurance and hope. When we are in Christ, we hate sinful behavior and grieve when we sin. When we are in Christ, we desire to seek Him often in prayer, and we long to know Him better through His Word. When we are in Christ we desire to be among the people of God. The most important thing the OP can do to find the peace he longs for is to get in the Word, and get on his knees, for we have the promise from God that when we love Him with all our hearts, mind, strength and soul then we are not far from the reign of God.

So you're saying that Nolan needs to DO something? I thought I was saying that as well.


In Ro 8:28 Paul tells us that to those who love God all things work together for good. If we could fall away, lose our salvation how is that working together for our good?

RW

Because we will then no longer love God.

You make the mistake, Roger, in thinking that someone in the saving grace of Jesus Christ is who the Hebrew writer was referring to. That simply is not the case.

RogerW
May 8th 2007, 07:29 PM
Righton “Are you saying, then, that only these pharisees shall be condemned on the Judgment Day? What are you saying here, Roger? What does this have to do with the topic at hand?”

Christ is showing us a single sin; blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that will never be forgiven. This is a very specific sin, and anyone who commits this sin remains, like the Pharisee’s condemned. You want to make rejecting Christ the unforgivable sin. That simply is not true. As I have already said, if that were true then NONE could be saved because everyone of us rejects Christ before we are saved.

You say Christ will never reject us, but we can reject Him. Who are the ones who reject Him? Is it those whom God has unconditionally saved? Or is it those like Judas Iscariot, who appeared to belong to the twelve, but in reality is the son of perdition, and never had received eternal life?



Righton “Prove that Demas was never in the spirit. He was with Paul. You mean Paul could not have been able to tell who was a partaker of the Holy Spirit and who was not?”

I already have by showing you 1Jo 2:19-21. John tells us, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”

Were Paul or John able to see into the heart? This is the only way one would know if another has the Holy Spirit. Why do you think there are so many warnings in Scripture about wolves in sheep’s clothing, false teachers, antichrists, tares among the wheat? We’re warned because these are among believers, they fellowship with believers, they are in covenant outwardly in the congregations. They, just like Judas are baptized members, professing to belong. Judas did not fall away, lose his salvation, because Judas was never a believer.

Ac 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
Ac 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Joh 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.



Righton “I'm curious, Roger. Are you a Baptist?”

No.



Righton “This does not say it is impossible to fall away. We still have to do our parts.”

You are confusing justification with sanctification. When we become saved, our hearts have been changed. Where we once delighted in the sins we committed, we now hate them, and desire to grow in faith, conforming more and more into the image of Christ. We desire to please God in all we do because our hearts have been changed, not to change our hearts. We “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” BECAUSE “it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

This is not teaching we must do a work to become saved, but that we do good works BECAUSE we have been saved. This is the point James makes when he says, “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”

If it is God working in me both to will and to do of His good pleasure, how can I, being a believer, not continue in the work that God is working in me to do? Is God not able to work His will in His children? Are we able to usurp the will of God with our so-called free will? Are you saying that our free will is greater then the will of God to keep His own? Would it be God’s good pleasure to will me to fall away from the grace He has unconditionally given me?



Righton “And where do you get this? Why ISN'T it talking about salvation? Yes, but what of those who DO give in to temptation?”

Salvation does not suddenly make us unable to commit sin. We strive for perfection in this life, knowing that as long as we live in this life, in these bodies of flesh we will never attain to this perfection we strive for. Paul shows us this struggle we have between the spirit and the flesh as long as we live in this world.

Ro 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Ro 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Ro 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Ro 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Ro 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Ro 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Ro 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Did Paul fall away, lose his salvation when he did the evil (walked after the flesh) he did not want to do? Was Paul deliberately walking after the flesh, or after the Spirit? Paul walked after the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, but he did not do it perfectly. Still he, and we (believers) have assurance that there is NOW no condemnation to them who are in Christ, who are walking after the Spirit. Because Christ has made us free from the law of sin and death when He condemned sin in the flesh and fulfilled the righteousness of the law in us, who walk by the Spirit.

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Do you understand what this is saying?



Righton “Where do you get that? What makes you say he has not lost his salvation?”

If falling into sinful behavior means we lose our salvation, then there is no hope for any of us because even though we have been saved, we still sometimes choose to sin.

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



Righton “And how do you interpret "convert" here?”

Turn him back to the truth. I don’t have the ability to save anyone, but I can certainly show the one who is erring from the truth how he is wondering from the path of righteousness.



Righton “So there's NOTHING you have done for your salvation? You have not accepted or believed what Christ has said? He just waved a magic wand and POOF!! you were saved?”

What could I do to merit salvation? Yes, I believe what Christ says! I believe because Christ has given me the faith needed to believe. I could not believe if I had not been given the ability through His work, His righteousness.




Righton “How about your actually addressing the passage itself, Roger? You tell me it is not as it is written, but what DOES it mean, then?”

]Righton “Of COURSE if you choose to reject Christ you will be condemned!”

How then are any of us ever saved? Did you choose Christ when you were in unbelief, or did you reject Him?



Righton “You're confusing our leaving the faith with some external force. Paul is talking about something else here, not our deliberately turning away from the faith.”

If it is Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit keeping us in the faith, how could we through our supposed free will turn away from the faith He is keeping us in? This is a very weak God Who cannot overcome our so-called free will!



Righton “According to this passage, we are rewarded by Christ for remaining faithful to Him. Take note that remaining faithful is a work, something we must DO!”

Our reward (full reward) is salvation, and the faith that brings us to salvation does NOT come from us. It is His faith imputed to us that brings us to salvation. Yes, faith working in and through us is a work, and something we do AFTER we are saved. Our work of faith is NOT that which saves us, but it is an active work of faith after we have become saved.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your WORK of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the WORK of faith with power:



Righton “So you're saying that Nolan needs to DO something? I thought I was saying that as well.”

When/if we are in Christ our faith is active. Our work of faith demonstrates we are in Christ, but it is not our work of faith that brings us to salvation. If you make distinction between justification and sanctification then you will understand the difference.


Righton “Because we will then no longer love God.”

How is it working for our good to no longer love God?


Righton “You make the mistake, Roger, in thinking that someone in the saving grace of Jesus Christ is who the Hebrew writer was referring to. That simply is not the case.”

Enlighten means; to shed rays, i.e. to shine or (transitively) to brighten up (literally or figuratively):--enlighten, illuminate, (bring to, give) light, make to see. Partaker means; participant, i.e. (as noun) a sharer; by implication, an associate:--fellow, partaker, partner. How can one be enlightened, tasted of the heavenly gift, made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, and NOT be someone who has received saving grace?

…“those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come”

RW

Righton
May 9th 2007, 10:57 AM
Roger, you are simply arguing line by line. I don't think this is helpful to Nolan Parker or anyone else.

I will say that you do not have sufficient information to say whether or not Judas Iscariot ever believed. The scripture says that Christ sent all twelve apostles out to preach at one point, with the ability to cast out demons. This would have included Judas. Judas was NOT the "Son of Perdition" you reference.

I'm not interested in arguing line-by-line. You either get it or you don't.

DSK
May 9th 2007, 11:55 AM
"Who shall separate us from the love of the Christ?" In his answer Paul tells us not only who, but what, and then sums it all up by saying nothing created can separate us from the love of God.

You can bank on what Scripture says. But never bank on human interpretation of Scripture. Below is something that few ever consider.

"There is a definite DIFFERENCE between the "LOVE" of God as mentioned in Rom. 8:38,39 and the "LIFE" of God, according to Scripture!
This is easily proven by noting that UNSAVED people are LOVED by God, even though they are devoid of His LIFE! A clear case in point is the rich, young ruler who was certainly UNSAVED, yet LOVED by Jesus (Mark.10:21)!

It must be further noted that this same unsaved man, like all unsaved people, are separated from the LIFE of God," (Eph. 4:18) but, again, not separated from His LOVE!"

Theophilus
May 9th 2007, 12:39 PM
Hi...friendly facilitator here.

I want to take a moment and say how nice it is that, even though we're discussing some passages that could cause contention, no one has crossed the line of harshness. I am always encouraged when God's people remain Christ-like when not necessarily agreeing on the interpretation of certain scriptures.

Please continue in the same vein. :)

Righton
May 9th 2007, 01:48 PM
Thank you for your kind words, Theophilus. I always try to remain professional when discussing things, esp. scripture. There have been times when people in the political world drive me absolutely crazy, but I seem to have this put on my heart that as long as I am on this forum, I will try to my utmost to present Christ to others in not only my scripture references [anybody can do that if you study] but in my tone and tenor as well.

RogerW
May 9th 2007, 02:32 PM
Roger, you are simply arguing line by line. I don't think this is helpful to Nolan Parker or anyone else.

Nolan was frightened at the propspect of falling away from grace. I showed why he should not be frightened, but rather comforted by the passage in Heb 6, and you interjected free will into the discussion.



I will say that you do not have sufficient information to say whether or not Judas Iscariot ever believed. The scripture says that Christ sent all twelve apostles out to preach at one point, with the ability to cast out demons. This would have included Judas. Judas was NOT the "Son of Perdition" you reference.

I would say that Judas Iscariot did believe. But his belief was like that of the devils. The reason I know he was never saved is because Scripture tells me Judas was ordained from the foundation of the world to be the one to betray Christ. I showed you this with the verses I posted. David prophesied concerning Judas. Christ tells us that Judas is a devil, so how could he have been saved?

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Joh 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.



I'm not interested in arguing line-by-line. You either get it or you don't.

Righton, I am only responding to what you have posted. I understand very well what you are saying.

RW

Righton
May 9th 2007, 03:21 PM
Nolan was frightened at the propspect of falling away from grace. I showed why he should not be frightened, but rather comforted by the passage in Heb 6, and you interjected free will into the discussion.

If Nolan was frightened, there would be a reason for it. Other folks quoting scripture for reassurance was something Nolan asked NOT for, in his[?] opening. If Nolan is frightened over a scripture passage, there would be a reason for it.

No, actually, you took issue with my post initially, not vice versa.


I would say that Judas Iscariot did believe. But his belief was like that of the devils. The reason I know he was never saved is because Scripture tells me Judas was ordained from the foundation of the world to be the one to betray Christ. I showed you this with the verses I posted. David prophesied concerning Judas. Christ tells us that Judas is a devil, so how could he have been saved?

There is no verse that says that Judas was ordainded from the foundation of the world to betray Chirst. You are confusing passages.

Actually, nobody is "saved". But this opens a new can of worms.


Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Joh 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

I realize this, Roger. But for all you know, he may have been pure at some point, just got corrupted as time went by. Scripture does not tell us either way.


Righton, I am only responding to what you have posted. I understand very well what you are saying.

RW

I don't think so. You don't seem to understand what the Hebrew writer is saying. All you've done ever since Nolan spoke of the passage is to deflect by bringing in other passages which would seem on the surface to negate Hebrews 6: 4-6. But you can't negate one scripture with another. It doesn't work that way.

You seem to want everyone to believe what you believe, that one cannot fall from grace. That is simply untrue, and you're spinning your wheels to insist otherwise.

Pilgrimtozion
May 10th 2007, 04:29 PM
Would it be safe to say that we would all encourage our friend to on the one hand be assured of God's love and protection and on the other hand encourage them to move on into a deeper walk with Christ in obedience to the Word and to develop a healthy fear of the Lord?

I think we can find common ground here in our advice to the OP...right?

BSC
May 10th 2007, 05:11 PM
This is one confusing topic for me…but I completely understand where this guy is coming from.

Still I should probably stay away from topics like this because they make me question my salvation.

See I always said I was a believer when I was a kid and even got baptized in college though I knew nothing at all about Jesus or being saved. But then as I got a little older I had a strong “pull” to learn more about Jesus. I started reading the Bible, going to church, my bad mouth got better, my attitude changed and so on. But I started drifting away and my mouth got worse, I didn’t go to church as much, faith got weaker, I started questioning my salvation……and so on.

Then stopped myself and ask “what in the world are you doing?” And the bad things I was doing at the time drove me crazy….and still are. I beg for forgiveness, I have a crazy strong urge to get closer to God, and at times there seems to be no peace for me. It’s like have a battle in my brain that never stops and I ask God to help me build my faith and transform me. It’s like God is trying to pull me in and satan is pounding hateful junk in my head to make me turn. But I refuse to EVER give up…I just hope God has forgiven me for drifting…..

On a side note after talking to some people (some on this board) I’m getting a better understanding I think. And for the first time in a while I feel saved.

Anyway, I didn’t mean to hijack this topic but what do you guys make of ^ that?

BSC
May 10th 2007, 08:22 PM
I see no one wanted to tackel that..... :hmm:

Theophilus
May 10th 2007, 08:32 PM
I see no one wanted to tackel that..... :hmm:

Well, BSC, I'm certainly encouraged to hear you're more assured about your relationship with Him. I'm not sure why no one responded...perhaps they didn't see your last line...?:hmm:

Anyway, your story sounds very similar to many of our own stories. That doesn't make your story any less important, by the way...I just mean that all of us are on a journey, and in that journey, we have highs and lows, and occasional stumbles...and even falls.

The important thing is to keep praying, reading the word, hearing the word, fellowshipping with other believers...and to keep growing. Maturity comes by learning from those ups and downs, and from seeking God's will. We come to learn God's will through all those things I've just mentioned.

Don't rely to much on feelings, my friend...they are very deceitful. There are times most people are going to feel as if they're not saved...but we have to trust God's word, and have faith that we are. People screw up...but God is quick to forgive the repentant.

Keep on your journey with Him, BSC...and as you've said, don't ever give up. :)

Teke
May 10th 2007, 09:59 PM
This is one confusing topic for me…but I completely understand where this guy is coming from.

Still I should probably stay away from topics like this because they make me question my salvation.

See I always said I was a believer when I was a kid and even got baptized in college though I knew nothing at all about Jesus or being saved. But then as I got a little older I had a strong “pull” to learn more about Jesus. I started reading the Bible, going to church, my bad mouth got better, my attitude changed and so on. But I started drifting away and my mouth got worse, I didn’t go to church as much, faith got weaker, I started questioning my salvation……and so on.

Then stopped myself and ask “what in the world are you doing?” And the bad things I was doing at the time drove me crazy….and still are. I beg for forgiveness, I have a crazy strong urge to get closer to God, and at times there seems to be no peace for me. It’s like have a battle in my brain that never stops and I ask God to help me build my faith and transform me. It’s like God is trying to pull me in and satan is pounding hateful junk in my head to make me turn. But I refuse to EVER give up…I just hope God has forgiven me for drifting…..

On a side note after talking to some people (some on this board) I’m getting a better understanding I think. And for the first time in a while I feel saved.

Anyway, I didn’t mean to hijack this topic but what do you guys make of ^ that?

I think more Christians need some good orthodox Christian psychotherapy.
I mean psychotherapy in the sense of the illness and curing of the soul.

Perhaps I'll do a thread on some of this vast subject.....maybe use John 1:4
"In Him was Life; and the Life was the Light of men.":hmm:

RogerW
May 10th 2007, 10:37 PM
This is one confusing topic for me…but I completely understand where this guy is coming from.

Still I should probably stay away from topics like this because they make me question my salvation.

See I always said I was a believer when I was a kid and even got baptized in college though I knew nothing at all about Jesus or being saved. But then as I got a little older I had a strong “pull” to learn more about Jesus. I started reading the Bible, going to church, my bad mouth got better, my attitude changed and so on. But I started drifting away and my mouth got worse, I didn’t go to church as much, faith got weaker, I started questioning my salvation……and so on.

Then stopped myself and ask “what in the world are you doing?” And the bad things I was doing at the time drove me crazy….and still are. I beg for forgiveness, I have a crazy strong urge to get closer to God, and at times there seems to be no peace for me. It’s like have a battle in my brain that never stops and I ask God to help me build my faith and transform me. It’s like God is trying to pull me in and satan is pounding hateful junk in my head to make me turn. But I refuse to EVER give up…I just hope God has forgiven me for drifting…..

On a side note after talking to some people (some on this board) I’m getting a better understanding I think. And for the first time in a while I feel saved.

Anyway, I didn’t mean to hijack this topic but what do you guys make of ^ that?

I think many of us could share similar experience. My own salvation seemed to come quickly, and after baptism I felt certain I had done everything necessary to please God. But I had no real desire to know Him. I took much for granted because I thought I had taken all the proper steps. I had walked the Romans road so to speak, I had confessed, and professed publicly, and said the sinners prayer asking the Lord into my heart.

But my life had not changed! Nothing was different, I was not different. It never occured to me that I had no relationship with the Lord. I did not read my Bible, I had no desire to pray, and I was in church, making a really big show of being part of every ministry available, but it was all outward, all pretense. I had no knowledge of what it meant to be saved.

I continued on this path for awhile, but just like you God continued to pull at my heart. I didn't get it, but I felt this could not be all there is to this salvation stuff. I had no joy, no hope, and no real peace that if I should die I would be with the Lord. But, as I said, God was not finished with me, praise Him!

God seemed to urge me to get in His Word. At the time I didn't know it was an urge from God. But I began for the first time to read, and as I read, and was very confused, I ask the Lord to give me understanding. As I began to faithfully read, and soon study His Word I began to see what seemed like contradictions to things I had been taught as truths from the Word. To make a long story short (guess that's too late), I started to understand that God Alone is Sovereign over every aspect of my life. It wasn't until I really began to understand The SOVEREIGN God that I began to have that peace that surpasses all understanding. You see, I discovered that since God is the Sovereign, and I am the clay that my life is directed by His Sovereign will. I was able to take myself out of the position of ruler and controller over my life, and God became my Lord, and my life.

I finally realized I was not saved because I did something to be saved, I was saved because God had in His Sovereign good pleasure saved me. My salvation wasn't dependent upon anything I did or did not do. I was saved by grace through faith, by His imputation of righteousness I became His forever. That's a really big thing to understand, because now I understand that my salvation is not lost when I choose to sin, and yes when I sin, it is because I choose to. Now when I sin, like you, I am grieved terribly, and my spirit yearns to put away my sin, I hate the sin I choose to commit. When I confess my sin, and turn away from it I have confidence that God has forgiven me. Will I put all sin away from me forever in this life? Not a chance! As long as I am in this body I will fall into temptation, but now I have the blessed assurance that God has forgiven all of my sin.

That does not mean that I can live in sin, and expect it is okay because God has forgiven me. No, if I desire to continue in sin, and am not grieved by the sin I commit then it is evidence that I am probably not saved at all. Each of us must examine our own hearts to make sure we are really in Christ. We must desire to know Him through His Word, and we long to go to the Lord often in prayer, and we seek to be among like minded believers as we grow in faith together, encouraging one another.

I hope this helps you. RW

BSC
May 11th 2007, 12:30 PM
Thanks for the replies guys. :)

DSK
May 11th 2007, 03:45 PM
I think many of us could share similar experience. My own salvation seemed to come quickly, and after baptism I felt certain I had done everything necessary to please God. But I had no real desire to know Him. I took much for granted because I thought I had taken all the proper steps. I had walked the Romans road so to speak, I had confessed, and professed publicly, and said the sinners prayer asking the Lord into my heart.

But my life had not changed! Nothing was different, I was not different. It never occured to me that I had no relationship with the Lord. I did not read my Bible, I had no desire to pray, and I was in church, making a really big show of being part of every ministry available, but it was all outward, all pretense. I had no knowledge of what it meant to be saved.

RW

RW
Thank you for your openness. This serves to confirm what I have believed for quite some time now, and that is, the pews of every Church are filled with those who think they are saved, but actually are not.
I thank God that you examined yourself, to see whether or not you truly were in the faith (2 Cor 13:5), and eventually became saved.
More people need to read what you wrote. We need to become missionaries to the lost who sit beside us every week in Church. We should never take it for granted that Tom. Mary, Bill and Diane who sit beside us each week are genuinely saved.

Teke
May 11th 2007, 04:57 PM
RWWe should never take it for granted that Tom. Mary, Bill and Diane who sit beside us each week are genuinely saved.


Why, maybe they are and just don't know what you know, or saw or experienced what you or anyone else has. I mean it doesn't make you the judge of their salvation. :cool:

DSK
May 11th 2007, 08:40 PM
Why, maybe they are and just don't know what you know, or saw or experienced what you or anyone else has. I mean it doesn't make you the judge of their salvation. :cool:

Let me ask you this. Are you of the opinion that everyone who attends Church is actually saved?

Teke
May 11th 2007, 08:58 PM
Let me ask you this. Are you of the opinion that everyone who attends Church is actually saved?

I'm of the opinion that everyone who attends church is working out their salvation.
I do not go to church to judge the salvation of others.

DSK
May 11th 2007, 09:41 PM
I'm of the opinion that everyone who attends church is working out their salvation.
I do not go to church to judge the salvation of others.

It's not a matter of judging. Scripture tells us that the wheat and the tares grow along side each other Matt 13:24-29. We don't have to speculate. We just have to accept what Scripture says.

Teke
May 11th 2007, 10:01 PM
It's not a matter of judging. Scripture tells us that the wheat and the tares grow along side each other Matt 13:24-29. We don't have to speculate. We just have to accept what Scripture says.

The scripture is speaking of the world, not the church.
Also, the scriptures in Matthew say, "while men slept" (they weren't vigilant, which could include in their minds or "nous"/eye of the heart)," his enemy came" (man's enemy is satan).

So, no I do not believe God allows the devil to plant tares in His Body the Church. The devil cannot prevail against the Church/Christ.

diffangle
May 11th 2007, 10:51 PM
So, no I do not believe God allows the devil to plant tares in His Body the Church. The devil cannot prevail against the Church/Christ.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. -Mat. 7:15

Where would false prophets be? In the world or in churches?

Many will say to me in that day, Master, Master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? -Mat. 7:22


These people/false prophets are amongst the religious(ie. churches).


For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. -Acts 20:29

They will enter into the flock(church). :(

Teke
May 11th 2007, 11:10 PM
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. -Mat. 7:15

Where would false prophets be? In the world or in churches?

Many will say to me in that day, Master, Master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? -Mat. 7:22


These people/false prophets are amongst the religious(ie. churches).


For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. -Acts 20:29

They will enter into the flock(church). :(

We are not ignorant of satan's devices.
The Lord is also speaking of this in reference to fruit. If your living in wickedness your fruit will bear witness. But Jesus does not say that there is no way for the wicked to change, or for the good to fall away. (Matt.12:33-35)

False prophets are usually worldly and try to start new religious movements (NRM's). Likened to politicians.;)

DSK
May 11th 2007, 11:56 PM
So, no I do not believe God allows the devil to plant tares in His Body the Church.

As applied to the kingdom community, this parable teaches us that it is not our job to sort the tares from the wheat. That is only done at the time of harvest. Among God's people, there may be some who are not genuine Christians, but it is God's job to sort out false professors. - David Guzik Commentary of Matthew 13:24-30

this parable teaches us, that good and evil will always be found together in the professing Church, until the end of the world. The visible Church is set before us as a mixed body. It is a vast "field" in which "wheat and weeds" grow side by side. We must expect to find believers and unbelievers, converted and unconverted, "the children of the kingdom, and the children of the wicked one," all mingled together in every congregation of baptized people.
The purest preaching of the Gospel will not prevent this. In every age of the Church, the same state of things has existed. It was the experience of the early Fathers. It was the experience of the Reformers. It is the experience of the best ministers at the present hour. There has never been a visible Church or a religious assembly, of which the members have been all "wheat." The devil, that great enemy of souls, has always taken care to sow "weeds." - J C Ryle Commentary on Mat 13:24-30

Teke
May 12th 2007, 02:01 AM
As applied to the kingdom community, this parable teaches us that it is not our job to sort the tares from the wheat. That is only done at the time of harvest. Among God's people, there may be some who are not genuine Christians, but it is God's job to sort out false professors. - David Guzik Commentary of Matthew 13:24-30

this parable teaches us, that good and evil will always be found together in the professing Church, until the end of the world. The visible Church is set before us as a mixed body. It is a vast "field" in which "wheat and weeds" grow side by side. We must expect to find believers and unbelievers, converted and unconverted, "the children of the kingdom, and the children of the wicked one," all mingled together in every congregation of baptized people.
The purest preaching of the Gospel will not prevent this. In every age of the Church, the same state of things has existed. It was the experience of the early Fathers. It was the experience of the Reformers. It is the experience of the best ministers at the present hour. There has never been a visible Church or a religious assembly, of which the members have been all "wheat." The devil, that great enemy of souls, has always taken care to sow "weeds." - J C Ryle Commentary on Mat 13:24-30

Then you believe a baptized Christian could be a tare?

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 02:43 AM
Then you believe a baptized Christian could be a tare?

If you think of the heretics throughout the Church age, most of them began as baptized Christians who later fell away. Arius, for example, who denied the Divinity of Christ and led so many into this error, was a Bishop who fell away. Nestorious was a bishop who fell into error. The worst heretics began as baptized Christians who fell into error, and brought many souls with them.

These were all baptized Christians who became tares and lead countless souls into perdition.

treeznbirdz
May 12th 2007, 04:32 AM
I have been wrestling with spiritual issues for over 30 years. I sooo want to feel saved & a part of the body of Christ. I am also way too weak & easily tempted to the point of giving in. I am very concerned with the verses in Hebrews I posted in the title. Hebrews 6 4-6 talks about the "IMpossibility" of those who once were enlightened to FALL away & then be allowed back thru repentance. I am worried that I had sufficient knowledge, understanding & experience & then , Not that I walked away from God, having decided Christ was deserving of being crucified. No way! I always fel guilt for everything I did, knowing it was wrong & sinful & that I was not behaving as I should. I prayed about it, BUT, I have suffered such horrible health & mental issues since, I cant help but wonder if God hasn't washed his hands of me. Can anyone reassure me, thru scripture, honestly? I don't want to be convinced "Everything is OKAY." if it's not true. If I need to be doing something to get right then that's what I need to hear. Thanks,

Hi Nolan, I am new here this is my first post....would like to say something here if I may.

Heb 6:4 For (it is) impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

I think we must read each and every word. Those who tasted the good word of God and the power...who have tasted heavenly gifts, back then was the disciples and followers. I think that sometime in the future another great 'works' will happen. Everyone seems to think that the time is at hand, or near.. But this 'works' will be like it was back then, its the gospel for what it really is. Most people either think the gospel is actually the Christ, or merely the 4 books. But the gospel is the 'works' they were doing back then that our Lord taught them to do and I honestly believe we will be doing again today , (if indeed this is the proper timing, Gods timing you know?). Most folks seem to think its sharing scriptures and thats it.. But its a work that will be done.. The Lord said "know them by their fruits", well most people seem to think that fruit is love, joy, peace, etc.. but really its not, its that abundance He spoke of.. (read the beautudes again), See things as a child, take them literally at first...Remember the tree that grows from a seed and the birds perch on it? If the tree is only talking about "emotions", then what are the birds? So, if one starts doing this 'works' and sees what its all about, and walks away from it, whats left? Our Lord taught us to DO something. Just as God had made men DO things in the OT..about that, nothing has changed.
Stay with the Lord, He is the Teacher, the Only Good Shepherd.
Follow Him only..
As a child..:bounce:

DSK
May 12th 2007, 11:05 AM
Then you believe a baptized Christian could be a tare?

Baptism doesn't save. Simon Mangus was baptized (Acts 8) and yet unsaved. The Catholics baptize many who remain unregenerate and unsaved. Baptism doesn't make a person a Christian

Teke
May 12th 2007, 12:24 PM
If you think of the heretics throughout the Church age, most of them began as baptized Christians who later fell away. Arius, for example, who denied the Divinity of Christ and led so many into this error, was a Bishop who fell away. Nestorious was a bishop who fell into error. The worst heretics began as baptized Christians who fell into error, and brought many souls with them.

These were all baptized Christians who became tares and lead countless souls into perdition.

If they were tares then they were to be left, according to the Lord.
So are you saying it's the churches job to separate the wheat and tares?

I believe we are speaking of two different things.

Teke
May 12th 2007, 12:27 PM
Baptism doesn't save. Simon Mangus was baptized (Acts 8) and yet unsaved. The Catholics baptize many who remain unregenerate and unsaved. Baptism doesn't make a person a Christian

Then you believe that no Christian is natural or carnal after baptism? They just instantly become spiritual, or else they are not "saved".

DSK
May 12th 2007, 01:27 PM
Then you believe that no Christian is natural or carnal after baptism? They just instantly become spiritual, or else they are not "saved".

What does carnality and baptism actually have to do with whether or not there is in attendance on any given Sunday those who think they are saved who aren't? Being baptized doesn't make you a Christian. Attending Church doesn't make you a Christian. Acting carnally or not doesn't disprove the fact that not everyone who attends Church are saved.

Teke
May 12th 2007, 01:35 PM
What does carnality and baptism actually have to do with whether or not there is in attendance on any given Sunday those who think they are saved who aren't? Being baptized doesn't make you a Christian. Attending Church doesn't make you a Christian. Acting carnally or not doesn't disprove the fact that not everyone who attends Church are saved.

OK, since your the judge, I have no idea what your litmus test for salvation is.:dunno:

I don't see how someone "thinks" they are saved, gets baptized and attends church, and yet they have no salvation.

I would like to know how you can look into their heart and know this.:hmm:

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 01:37 PM
What does carnality and baptism actually have to do with whether or not there is in attendance on any given Sunday those who think they are saved who aren't? Being baptized doesn't make you a Christian. Attending Church doesn't make you a Christian. Acting carnally or not doesn't disprove the fact that not everyone who attends Church are saved.

According to your understanding, how is a person saved?

DSK
May 12th 2007, 02:29 PM
According to your understanding, how is a person saved?

Acts 16:31 Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved

Romans 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Romans 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

DSK
May 12th 2007, 02:36 PM
OK, since your the judge, I have no idea what your litmus test for salvation is.:dunno:

I don't see how someone "thinks" they are saved, gets baptized and attends church, and yet they have no salvation.

I would like to know how you can look into their heart and know this.:hmm:

The only litmus test I have, is what does the Bible say. The Scripture mentions that in the earliest Churches there were "false brethren" and "false teachers" What litmus test did these early Christian's use to discern genuine Christian's from false Christian's. Or do you believe they should never try to use the God given gifts of discernment to find out who the false professors were?

Teke
May 12th 2007, 03:26 PM
The only litmus test I have, is what does the Bible say. The Scripture mentions that in the earliest Churches there were "false brethren" and "false teachers" What litmus test did these early Christian's use to discern genuine Christian's from false Christian's. Or do you believe they should never try to use the God given gifts of discernment to find out who the false professors were?

The scriptures are referring to Judaizers. Since your referencing Gal. 2:4, let's put it in perspective. The "false brethren" and "teachers" of the Galatians verse are not those "of reputation" (v2). Their reputation is that they do not hold to the one doctrine of the church. You can also read of them in Acts 15 verse 1 and 24. It is also noteworthy that Paul spoke in private to those of reputation on the matter. He didn't just start bashing Judaism, because that wouldn't have helped their cause.

In our age, there is likely not any Christian, who after baptism believe they also should be circumcised. If so they are misguided, or have been taught wrong doctrine of the Apostles and Christ. These the church are to guide in their salvation by teaching them the correct doctrine of the church.

It is more likely, in our time, that if one doesn't hold to the original one doctrine of Christ and the Apostles, they just start their own religious movement and call it new. And people can be fooled for a season if they are not seeking Christ and the truth of His church.

With that being said, it still doesn't mean they lost salvation. God and His church are always there to receive the penitent or prodigal.:saint:

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 05:15 PM
Acts 16:31 Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved

Romans 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Romans 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Then how are infants, young children, and seriously retarded adults saved? We know that no one comes into this world justified; and Jesus clearly teaches that a person must be born again to enter heaven (John 3). Therefore, how would a child, who is incapable of making an act of faith, be saved?

RogerW
May 12th 2007, 05:35 PM
Then how are infants, young children, and seriously retarded adults saved? We know that no one comes into this world justified; and Jesus clearly teaches that a person must be born again to enter heaven (John 3). Therefore, how would a child, who is incapable of making an act of faith, be saved?

The same way anyone is saved, by grace.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Ga 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

RW

Pilgrimtozion
May 12th 2007, 05:57 PM
The same way anyone is saved, by grace.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Ga 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

RW

The problem is that an equal amount of Scriptures can be shown to say that we need to chose Christ as well. They do not exclude each other as far as I am concerned.

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 06:34 PM
The same way anyone is saved, by grace.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

RW

Agreed. But if, as Jesus said, we must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven - and if a child is inapable of making an act of faith - how do they receive the grace of justification that comes to us through this rebirth?

If we are justified by "accepting Jesus as our Personal Savior" then how is a child, who is incapable of making an act of faith, justified?

Obviously there must be some means by which an infant can be "born again" and justified without making an act of faith. What is this means?

Surely God would have thought of this, right?

(Here's a hint. In the old covenant, the Jewish boy became a member of the Jewish religion through circumcision when he was 8 days old. With this in mind, see Colossians for the answer

Teke
May 12th 2007, 07:07 PM
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 07:14 PM
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

"Thou hast answered right" (Luke 10:28).

RogerW
May 12th 2007, 07:18 PM
The problem is that an equal amount of Scriptures can be shown to say that we need to chose Christ as well. They do not exclude each other as far as I am concerned.

This is true. One passage of Scripture does not negate another. So if we have verses that appear to say salvation is by grace alone, and we have verses that appear to say we must do our part, i.e. receive, believe, etc., how to we reconcile these passages so there is no contradiction in Scripture?

RW

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 07:35 PM
This is true. One passage of Scripture does not negate another. So if we have verses that appear to say salvation is by grace alone, and we have verses that appear to say we must do our part, i.e. receive, believe, etc., how to we reconcile these passages so there is no contradiction in Scripture?

RW

That is the way to approach it.

Firstly, we need to realize that the Bible does not say we are saved by grace "alone" as you said. It says we are "saved by grace". The Bible also says we are "saved by hope" (Romans 8:24). It says we are "justified by faith" (Romand 3:28), and also "justified by works" (James 2:24).

The problem begins when people start adding the word "alone" to verses. We are saved by grace, but no where does the Bible say grace alone. We are justified by faith, but no where does the Bible said faith alone
(in fact, it says the exact contrary in James 2:24). When one adds the word "alone" they thereby exclude anything else, which then contradicts the Bible.

We must believe all of the Bible, and not seek to explain away or nullify this or that verse simply because it doesn't fit in with what we have been taught.

For example, some today attempt to explain away the verses that say keeping the commandments is necessary. They do this because, according to their theology, keeping the commandments is not necessary for salvation. They base their belief on other verses, but the conclusion they have drawn is directly contrary to the what the Bible explicitly says. Jesus Himself said "if thou wilt enter into to life, keep the commandments" (Mt 19:17).

The same Bible that tells us we are saved by believing in Jesus, also tells us that to be saved we must keep the commandments - and Jesus Himself said it. How can someone claim to believe in Jesus when they reject what he taught (e.g. that we must keep the commandments)?

So, you asked the right question. You did not seek to explain away one verse by using another, but instead asked how they can all be true at the same time. That is the way to approach it.

Pilgrimtozion
May 12th 2007, 07:41 PM
This is true. One passage of Scripture does not negate another. So if we have verses that appear to say salvation is by grace alone, and we have verses that appear to say we must do our part, i.e. receive, believe, etc., how to we reconcile these passages so there is no contradiction in Scripture?

RW

We reinvestigate our interpretations of those passages, pray about them, compare Scripture with Scripture, and pray that God would open our minds and hearts to understand them.

In this case, I feel it means understanding that being saved by grace through faith does not negate our involvement in the process. Some say being saved by grace through faith means that we don't do anything and God does everything. I disagree with that and feel that one needs to look only to look at sanctification to understand this. After all, we are sanctified by grace through faith just as much as we are justified and saved from the punishment of sin by grace through faith.

In sanctification, a person cooperates with the grace of God working through faith in order for Christ to live through Him. Galatians 2:20 explains this beautifully: I am dead and now it is no longer I who live but Christ in me. But the life I live - so I apparently still live this life! - I live by faith in the Son of God. That is the difference: I do not accomplish anything by trusting in my own effort, but taking the faith in my heart, I act on that faith and trust that Christ will live through me today.

Now justification is no different. We are saved by grace through faith - but this does not negate the need to actually make the decision to believe, the need to repent from sin and turn the back on the old life, the need to lay down the life at the foot of the cross. This decision is the human element in this process seen throughout the New Testament and is the sign that true faith is present in the heart of the person.

Claiming that the decision is a human's decision to make does not make it any less the work of Christ. After all, the same is true for sanctification, is it not? We decide to believe in Christ, but the ability to do so is given by Christ, the grace to believe is given by Christ. Christ has worked in the heart, Christ has given the faith, the person just needs to activate it. This is the essence of the principle of faith: it requires our participation to activate it so that its effects are seen in life. To me, this is one of the most beautiful principles in the Bible and something that fills me with passion to seek God's face...because it is only there that I can truly find the light of Revelation that produces faith. Like Paul says, "that the eyes of our heart may be enlightened, that we may know..."

RogerW
May 12th 2007, 07:50 PM
Agreed. But if, as Jesus said, we must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven - and if a child is inapable of making an act of faith - how do they receive the grace of justification that comes to us through this rebirth?

If we are justified by "accepting Jesus as our Personal Savior" then how is a child, who is incapable of making an act of faith, justified?

Obviously there must be some means by which an infant can be "born again" and justified without making an act of faith. What is this means?

Surely God would have thought of this, right?

(Here's a hint. In the old covenant, the Jewish boy became a member of the Jewish religion through circumcision when he was 8 days old. With this in mind, see Colossians for the answer

I fear we are drifting from the OP. If you wish to continue down this path perhaps another thread would be appropriate. However I am compelled to answer your post.

Are you saying that baptism is the means of salvation for our infants? Do you understand that water baptism is NOT a sign of salvation, but a sign of covenant identification/relationship?

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Or, are you hinting toward an age of accountability? I believe the age of accoutability is birth. We do not become sinners when we commit sin, we sin because we are born sinners. We are therefore accountable unto God from birth. The Bible tells us, "There is none righteous, no, not one". It does not say there are none righteous except infants, and those mentally impaired.

Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

RW

DSK
May 12th 2007, 08:43 PM
With that being said, it still doesn't mean they lost salvation.

Where did I ever mention anything about anyone losing there salvation?

Nevertheless, even Peter warned about false teachers that would infiltrate the body of believers. He said they would be among them. In other words right in their very midst.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you.

"Among you" (en humin) is more literally "in your midst" which clearly indicates these deceivers will infiltrate & intermingle with God's saints. The point is clear "among" indicates this is an "inside" job so to speak, just as Paul had warned the Ephesian elders would occur upon his departure."

MacDonald sates: "These false teachers take their place inside the church."

"Jude had a similar warning "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, (pareisduno from para = alongside + eisdúo = enter in) those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude4)

And lastly but not least, even Paul warned the believers about deceivers that will enter in among them.

Acts 20:28 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.
Acts 20:29 I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock;
Acts 20:30 and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
Acts 20:31 Wherefore watch ye, remembering that by the space of three years I ceased not to admonish every one night and day with tears.

Those who don't heed the above Scriptural warnings will not be ready to spot the wolves dressed in sheeps clothing who enter the unsuspecting flock.

DSK
May 12th 2007, 08:51 PM
Then how are infants, young children, and seriously retarded adults saved? We know that no one comes into this world justified; and Jesus clearly teaches that a person must be born again to enter heaven (John 3). Therefore, how would a child, who is incapable of making an act of faith, be saved?

I know that your Catholic, and I know where your attempting to go with this thread. But this is a Protestant Forum, and I personally believe the Catholic views of baptism and other sacraments of the Catholic Church would be better attended to in the World Religions Forum rather than in this thread.

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 09:21 PM
Or, are you hinting toward an age of accountability? I believe the age of accoutability is birth. We do not become sinners when we commit sin, we sin because we are born sinners. We are therefore accountable unto God from birth. The Bible tells us, "There is none righteous, no, not one". It does not say there are none righteous except infants, and those mentally impaired.

Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

RW

Then you should be able to understand my question, which is this: How is an infant or a mentally retarded person - both of whom are not righteous, and who were conceived in sin - saved?

Both of these groups of people are incapabe of making an act of faith. If this is so, and it is, how are they saved? How are they born again and justified?

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 09:30 PM
I know that your Catholic, and I know where your attempting to go with this thread. But this is a Protestant Forum, and I personally believe the Catholic views of baptism and other sacraments of the Catholic Church would be better attended to in the World Religions Forum rather than in this thread.

Where I am going is not only a Catholic issue, any more than believing in predestination, free will, the Trinity, Divinity of Jesus, and salvation by grace is a Catholics issue. Catholics believe what I am getting at, but so do some Protestants. There are Protestants on this board who hold the position I am getting at; it has been a teaching of Christianity from day one, and was held unanimously by all the fathers of the Church.

It would be different if I were attempting to get into a discussion on purgatory, the Mass, confession, or some other doctrine specific to Catholics, but I'm not. This is a teaching that many Protestants agree with. Therefore, I believe that it is valid to discuss this point in this thread.

RogerW
May 12th 2007, 10:01 PM
Then you should be able to understand my question, which is this: How is an infant or a mentally retarded person - both of whom are not righteous, and who were conceived in sin - saved?

Both of these groups of people are incapabe of making an act of faith. If this is so, and it is, how are they saved? How are they born again and justified?

RSiscoe,

As I have already stated, they are saved by grace through faith, just as anyone who becomes saved is saved. That's the wonderful thing about the Sovereign God. He saves whomsoever He wills. It matters not how old, or whether or not one is mentally incapable, because our salvation is NOT dependent upon ourselves. An infant, or a mentally impaired person has the same probability of becoming saved as you or I.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

All who will be saved, whether infant, mentally impaired, or anyone else have been written in heaven.

Lu 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

(Notice this is past tense, not that your names WILL BE written in heaven, but that they are)

RW

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 10:17 PM
RSiscoe,

As I have already stated, they are saved by grace through faith, just as anyone who becomes saved is saved.

But how can they be saved by grace through faith when they are incapable of making an act of faith?

The Bible tells us that "without faith it is impossible to please God". Heb 11:6).

Infants and seriously retarded people are incapable of making an act of faith. If faith is necessary for salvation (and according to the Bible it is); and if we must be "born again" to enter the kingdom of God (which is what Jesus taught) then how can an infant or seriously retarded person be saved?


That's the wonderful thing about the Sovereign God. He saves whomsoever He wills.

But God does not contradict Himself. God told us in the letter to the Hebews that without faith it is impossible to please God. Jesus, who is God, also told us that to enter heaven we must be born again.

So my question remains: How is an infant, who is incapable of making an act of faith, saved? And how are they born again?

RogerW
May 12th 2007, 10:26 PM
But how can they be saved by grace through faith when they are incapable of making an act of faith?

The Bible tells us that "without faith it is impossible to please God". Heb 11:6).

Infant and seriously retarded people are incapable of making an act of faith. If faith is necessary for salvation (and according to the Bible it is); and if we must be "born again" to enter the kingdom of God (which is what Jesus taught) then how can an infant or seriously retarded person be saved?

But God does not contradict Himself. God told us in the letter to the Hebews that without faith it is impossible to please God. Jesus, who is God, also told us that to enter heaven we must be born again.

So my question remains: How is an infant, who is incapable of making an act of faith, saved? And how are they born again?

The work of redemption was given the Son from the Father. It is His redeeming WORK of faith that saves.

Ro 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Ga 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Ga 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

RW

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 10:29 PM
The work of redemption was given the Son from the Father. It is His redeeming WORK of faith that saves.

Ro 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

So, are you saying we do not personally have to have faith to be saved? that it is now our faith that saves but the faith that Jesus had?

RogerW
May 12th 2007, 10:44 PM
So, are you saying we do not personally have to have faith to be saved? that it is now our faith that saves but the faith that Jesus had?

Christ saves His own by grace through faith. This faith imputed to us is now our work of faith, because we are His workmanship created unto good works, ordained that we should walk in them. This imputed faith working through us is most definately an active work of faith unto sanctification. His faith, perfect life, and obedience to the Father saves us, (cross & resurrection) and His faith imputed to us makes us able to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, knowing that it is God working in us to both will and do of His good pleasure (Ph 2:12,13).

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

RW

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 10:52 PM
Christ saves His own by grace through faith. This faith imputed to us is now our work of faith, because we are His workmanship created unto good works, ordained that we should walk in them. This imputed faith working through us is most definately an active work of faith unto sanctification. His faith, perfect life, and obedience to the Father saves us, (cross & resurrection) and His faith imputed to us makes us able to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, knowing that it is God working in us to both will and do of His good pleasure (Ph 2:12,13).

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

RW

Roger,

I agree with everything you said, and all the verses you have quoted in response to me. But my question is: how does an infant, who is incapable of making an act of faith, attain to justification? How are they born again?

If you'd like, just tell me how an adult is saved?

RogerW
May 12th 2007, 11:03 PM
Roger,

I agree with everything you said, and all the verses you have quoted in response to me. But my question is: how does an infant, who is incapable of making an act of faith, attain to justification? How are they born again?

If you'd like, just tell me how an adult is saved?

Just because an infant is not able to express they have been saved does not mean they cannot be. Look for example at John the Baptist. John was filled with the Holy Ghost even from his mother's womb. He could not declare his salvation, but to be filled with the Spirit means one has been saved.

Lu 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
Lu 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
Lu 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

RW

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 11:42 PM
Just because an infant is not able to express they have been saved does not mean they cannot be. Look for example at John the Baptist. John was filled with the Holy Ghost even from his mother's womb. He could not declare his salvation, but to be filled with the Spirit means one has been saved.

Lu 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
Lu 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
Lu 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

RW

But the question is: How is an infant born again?

As I said in the last post, if you don't have an answer, just tell me how an adult is born again.

RogerW
May 13th 2007, 12:04 AM
But the question is: How is an infant born again?

As I said in the last post, if you don't have an answer, just tell me how an adult is born again.

Please define what you mean by being born again?

Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Ro 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

RW

RSiscoe
May 13th 2007, 12:51 AM
Please define what you mean by being born again?

RW

Fair enough.

When God created Adam and Eve, He created them to live with Him forever. Therefore, they were created with an immortal soul - a soul that will never cease to exist. In addition to this eternal soul He gave them "eternal life", which was a share in His own uncreated and Life. We now call this uncreated life, which God shares with us, "grace", since it is, and was, freely given.

God told Adam and Eve that if they ate the forbidden fruit they would die "that day". The death that they incurred through their disobedience to God was a spiritual death - they lost the indwelling life of God (grace), and thus became separated from God and "dead" on the supernatural level.

They died spiritually the day they ate the forbidden fruit, which then put in motion natural death. The Bible tells us that, "through one man sin entered in, and through sin death". If they would not have sinned, they would never have died on the supernatural level, or the natural level.

Through the death of Our Lord, God's justice was satisfied, which enables us to again receive this "eternal life". This supernatural life of grace is received through a second birth, which is a spiritual birth.

In John 3 Jesus said: "Amen, Amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Wonder not that I said to thee, you must be born again" (vs. 5-7).

The rebirth our Lord refers to a spiritual birth that infuses supernatural life - the Life of God Himself - into the soul, thereby making us "a new creation" (2 Cor 5:17), and [i]"partakers of the Divine Nature" (2 Peter 1:4).

This supernatural life of "grace" is nothing less than the Holy Ghost Himself, who dwells within us. In Corinthians we read: [i]"Know you not, that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you" (1 Cor 6:19).

All this takes place when we are born again, or "born from above", which is a better translation of the Greek. This explains why the Bible often refers to Christians as the "adopted" children of God, for we are not born from our mother's womb as children of God, but only become such through the second birth - the spiritual birth.

So, when I speak of being born again I am referring to the spiritual rebirth that takes place within the soul of a Christian, which makes him a "partaker of the Divine nature", a "new creation", and a "temple of the Holy Ghost."

A person is saved by dying with the eternal life of God within them. This Life is called "grace", and it is what saves. But to receive this grace, God requires faith.

premio53
May 13th 2007, 02:55 AM
Roger,

I agree with everything you said, and all the verses you have quoted in response to me. But my question is: how does an infant, who is incapable of making an act of faith, attain to justification? How are they born again?

If you'd like, just tell me how an adult is saved?
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

1Co 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Death is a result of Adam’s sin and no one else’s. Man and infants die for their inherited sin. Babies die because of their inherited sin just as sure as if they had inherited cancer. Note that it says sin was in the world but not imputed and that death reigned from Adam to Moses even to those that had not sinned the same Adam transgression. They did sin by other things besides eating the fruit, however, and it is also true that the soul that sinneth it shall die.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

However, Adam’s disobedience, judgment, and condemnation also came upon all men who were all made sinners by this inherited sin. The law accentuated the offence of Adam and others, since man still committed sin before the law.

Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

But infants will not be held accountable for sins, which they have not knowingly committed in regard to hell even as sins of ignorance were covered in an atonement by the priest. Infants, who sin coming from the womb, are covered in the atonement until they knowledgeably sin their own sins and are aware of them.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

God forgave Adam the penalty for his sin by clothing Adam and Eve in the bloody skins of animals. When children knowingly sin, they must be forgiven the penalty of their sin by blood as well. Sin and iniquity will not be imputed to those so blessed, but also righteosness is also imputed to them.

premio53
May 13th 2007, 04:11 AM
I have been wrestling with spiritual issues for over 30 years. I sooo want to feel saved & a part of the body of Christ. I am also way too weak & easily tempted to the point of giving in. I am very concerned with the verses in Hebrews I posted in the title. Hebrews 6 4-6 talks about the "IMpossibility" of those who once were enlightened to FALL away & then be allowed back thru repentance. I am worried that I had sufficient knowledge, understanding & experience & then , Not that I walked away from God, having decided Christ was deserving of being crucified. No way! I always fel guilt for everything I did, knowing it was wrong & sinful & that I was not behaving as I should. I prayed about it, BUT, I have suffered such horrible health & mental issues since, I cant help but wonder if God hasn't washed his hands of me. Can anyone reassure me, thru scripture, honestly? I don't want to be convinced "Everything is OKAY." if it's not true. If I need to be doing something to get right then that's what I need to hear. Thanks,
Hi Nolan. I believe if you look at to whom the book of Hebrews is written it will clear much of the uncertainty you have. The Apostle Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles (Romans 11:13). He also told us to "rightly divide the word" (2 Timothy 2:15). Paul wrote the "church epistles" but here he is writing specifically to "the Hebrews" (his "kinsmen according to the flesh" Rom 9:3) and it is within that context that Hebrews 6 as well as the rest of the book must be interpreted.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

He is not talking of saved individuals here. Notice verse 9 in the context.

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Notice how these verses tie in with what Jesus said in Matthew 5:43-48. The rain falls on the just and the unjust.

The Jews were made "partakers of the Holy Ghost" on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4,5) as well as through the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles where many mighty works were performed as a "sign" to the Jews (1 Cor 1:22). Every man there was either a Jew or a Jewish proselyte.

"And have tasted the good word of God," (verse 5). Once again, every book of the Bible was written by Jews (Romans 3:1,2).

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Who is he speaking to? To the Hebrews who crucified their own Messiah (Acts 2:23).

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

What is Paul referring to in Hebrews 10? In Hebrews 10:1-6, 10 it shows us that animal sacrifices cannot take away sins and is a warning to all Hebrews that if they turn back to Judaism and reject the sacrifice of Christ "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" (Heb 10:26).

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Throughout the book of Hebrews, Paul is showing the Jews that there is a better covenant (Heb 8:6) and those who reject it and go back to Judaism are not saved.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

RSiscoe
May 13th 2007, 10:12 AM
Premio53,

In your post you distinguished between what is known as "original sin" and "actual sin". Original sin is that which we inheret from Adam. Actual sin are the sins that we personally commit.

Actual sin can be further broken out between merely objective sin and subjective sin. Objective actual sin is any action that God forbids. Subjective actual sin is a violation of a law of God that we are aware of. A person can commit an objective actual sin but not be subjectively guilty since he truly did not know any better.

Let's take a look at your post.


Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:... Death is a result of Adam’s sin and no one else’s. Man and infants die for their inherited sin. Babies die because of their inherited sin just as sure as if they had inherited cancer.

This inherited sin you describe is what I referred to as original sin. It is the sin we inherited from Adam.


Note that it says sin was in the world but not imputed and that death reigned from Adam to Moses even to those that had not sinned the same Adam transgression.

Before the law sin was not imputed because it was commited through ignorance, not through knowledge and malice. Such as sin would be objectively wrong, but the person would not be subjectively guilty. Before the law was given, man still had the natural law (Romans 2:14-15) to guide him, violations of which were subjectively sin (Cain killing Able, for example), but he did not have knowleldge of the law to the extent that he did after the law was given. Before the law was given, knowledge of right and wrong was much more vague than after.


Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

But infants will not be held accountable for sins, which they have not knowingly committed in regard to hell even as sins of ignorance were covered in an atonement by the priest. Infants, who sin coming from the womb, are covered in the atonement until they knowledgeably sin their own sins and are aware of them.

True, but "sins commited in ignorance" refer to actual sins, not original or "inherited" sin, which is cleansed when we are born again.

So, for example, if a mother takes her three year old to the store, and the three year old picks up a cookie and eats it, it is not guilty of stealing the cookie because he did not know any better. Such a sin would have been committed through ignorance, and as such not imputed.

But the three year old still has the original sin on his soul, which means he is not in the state of justification.


God forgave Adam the penalty for his sin by clothing Adam and Eve in the bloody skins of animals. When children knowingly sin, they must be forgiven the penalty of their sin by blood as well. Sin and iniquity will not be imputed to those so blessed, but also righteosness is also imputed to them.

When you say righteousness is imputed to them, do you mean they come into this world justified? In other words, children are born jusifiedt, and only lose it at some future point in life (when they reach the age of accountability, for example), at which time they are in need of being born again?

That can't be since even children have inherited sin on their soul, and need to be born again. Remember, in John 3 Jesus said that to enter heaven a person must be born again. That means they must have original sin washed away from their soul through the infusion of the Holy Ghost, by which they become, as Paul wrote to the Corinthians and Galations, "a new creature".

This new creature is new because a metaphysical change has taken place within the soul a man. Whereas he was at first in sin and separated from God, he then received the indwelling Holy Ghost, became a "partaker of the Divine Nature", and "adopted child of God", and a "temple of the Holy Ghost".

No child comes into the world as a "partaker of the Divine Nature" and an "adopted child of God". In other words, no one comes into this world born again, which, according to Jesus, is necessary for salvation.

So my question still remains: How is a child born again and thus saved?

DSK
May 13th 2007, 10:50 AM
Where I am going is not only a Catholic issue, any more than believing in predestination, free will, the Trinity, Divinity of Jesus, and salvation by grace is a Catholics issue. Catholics believe what I am getting at, but so do some Protestants. There are Protestants on this board who hold the position I am getting at; it has been a teaching of Christianity from day one, and was held unanimously by all the fathers of the Church.

It would be different if I were attempting to get into a discussion on purgatory, the Mass, confession, or some other doctrine specific to Catholics, but I'm not. This is a teaching that many Protestants agree with. Therefore, I believe that it is valid to discuss this point in this thread.

Alright then, let me point out to you what I believe is a major problem for infant baptism for salvation, which is a practice of the Catholic Church. An infant cannot fulfill the requirements of Romans 10:9-10 for salvation, therefore the Catholic position presents a Scriptural problem.

Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I will leave at that.

RSiscoe
May 13th 2007, 12:18 PM
Alright then, let me point out to you what I believe is a major problem for infant baptism for salvation, which is a practice of the Catholic Church. An infant cannot fulfill the requirements of Romans 10:9-10 for salvation, therefore the Catholic position presents a Scriptural problem.

Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I will leave at that.

But the question I have yet to receive an answer to is how is an infant, who is incapable of making an act of faith, justified?

Or, for that matter, how is a "mute" (a person who can't speak), justified. How can a person who can't speak be justified by "confessing with their mouth". They are not cabable of speaking.

How are these two groups of people justified? The one cannot make and act of faith and the other cannot speak.

Does God have another way for such people to obtain justification? If so, how?

premio53
May 13th 2007, 01:14 PM
Premio53,

In your post you distinguished between what is known as "original sin" and "actual sin". Original sin is that which we inheret from Adam. Actual sin are the sins that we personally commit.

Actual sin can be further broken out between merely objective sin and subjective sin. Objective actual sin is any action that God forbids. Subjective actual sin is a violation of a law of God that we are aware of. A person can commit an objective actual sin but not be subjectively guilty since he truly did not know any better.

Let's take a look at your post.


This inherited sin you describe is what I referred to as original sin. It is the sin we inherited from Adam.

Before the law sin was not imputed because it was commited through ignorance, not through knowledge and malice. Such as sin would be objectively wrong, but the person would not be subjectively guilty. Before the law was given, man still had the natural law (Romans 2:14-15) to guide him, violations of which were subjectively sin (Cain killing Able, for example), but he did not have knowleldge of the law to the extent that he did after the law was given. Before the law was given, knowledge of right and wrong was much more vague than after.


True, but "sins commited in ignorance" refer to actual sins, not original or "inherited" sin, which is cleansed when we are born again.

So, for example, if a mother takes her three year old to the store, and the three year old picks up a cookie and eats it, it is not guilty of stealing the cookie because he did not know any better. Such a sin would have been committed through ignorance, and as such not imputed.

But the three year old still has the original sin on his soul, which means he is not in the state of justification.



When you say righteousness is imputed to them, do you mean they come into this world justified? In other words, children are born jusifiedt, and only lose it at some future point in life (when they reach the age of accountability, for example), at which time they are in need of being born again?

That can't be since even children have inherited sin on their soul, and need to be born again. Remember, in John 3 Jesus said that to enter heaven a person must be born again. That means they must have original sin washed away from their soul through the infusion of the Holy Ghost, by which they become, as Paul wrote to the Corinthians and Galations, "a new creature".

This new creature is new because a metaphysical change has taken place within the soul a man. Whereas he was at first in sin and separated from God, he then received the indwelling Holy Ghost, became a "partaker of the Divine Nature", and "adopted child of God", and a "temple of the Holy Ghost".

No child comes into the world as a "partaker of the Divine Nature" and an "adopted child of God". In other words, no one comes into this world born again, which, according to Jesus, is necessary for salvation.

So my question still remains: How is a child born again and thus saved?
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

We all are born with the stain of original sin (see also Romans 5:12). There is no such thing as an “innocent” baby. However . . .

The Bible teaches: - We are to be judged on the basis of our deeds committed “in the body.” 2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”

We will face the judgment seat of Christ and be judged, not on the basis of original sin, but for our sins committed during our own lifetimes. Each person will answer “according to that he hath done,” and NOT for the sin of Adam.

The imputation of Adam’s sin and guilt explains our inability to respond to God without regeneration, but the Bible does not teach that we will answer for Adam’s sin. We will answer for our OWN sin. So how about infants? Have those who died in infancy committed such sins “in the body?” NO.

Deuteronomy 1:35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,

Deuteronomy 1:39 However, God specifically exempted young children and infants from this sentence, and even explained why He did so: “Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.”

The Key Issue: The key issue here is that God specifically exempted from the judgment those who “had no knowledge between good and evil,” because of their age. These “little ones” would inherit the Promised Land, and would not be judged on the basis of their fathers’ sins.

Therefore . . . This passage bears directly on the issue of infant salvation. The accomplished work of Jesus Christ on the cross has removed the stain of original sin from those who die in infancy . . . Knowing neither good nor evil, these young children are incapable of committing sins in the body—are not yet moral agents—and die secure in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Joh 1:17 "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." Jesus instructed his disciples that they should "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God." There is no reason to believe that His grace does not extent to those who indeed are innocent of actually committing sins in the body. Luke 18:15 shows clearly that he is referring to "infants."

The one clear passage that deals with this subject shows the mercy given to infants.

” 2 Samuel 12:23 . . . “But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.”

Regards.

RSiscoe
May 13th 2007, 01:45 PM
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

We all are born with the stain of original sin (see also Romans 5:12). There is no such thing as an “innocent” baby. However . . .

The Bible teaches: - We are to be judged on the basis of our deeds committed “in the body.” 2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”...

The imputation of Adam’s sin and guilt explains our inability to respond to God without regeneration, but the Bible does not teach that we will answer for Adam’s sin. We will answer for our OWN sin. So how about infants? Have those who died in infancy committed such sins “in the body?” NO.

Right, we are not judged based on original sin, but based on our own actual sins. However, just because a person is not guilty of sin (a child, for example) does not mean they are thereby justified, and have the Holy Ghost dwelling within them.

No person is born justified, which is why we must be born again. It is through this spiritual rebirth that a person receives the indwelling Holy Ghost and is justified.


We will face the judgment seat of Christ and be judged, not on the basis of original sin, but for our sins committed during our own lifetimes.

That is true. But again, not being guilty of any actual sins does not equal being in a state of justification. If that were so, it would mean that man comes into this world justified, and salvation was his to lose. That is not the case. We come into this world separated from God, and in need of justification.


The Key Issue: The key issue here is that God specifically exempted from the judgment those who “had no knowledge between good and evil,” because of their age. These “little ones” would inherit the Promised Land, and would not be judged on the basis of their fathers’ sins.

Therefore . . . This passage bears directly on the issue of infant salvation.

The parallel would only work if man was born justified, with indwelling Holy Ghost. The reason the example does not fit is because one is dealing with the natural level, and the other with the supernatural level of sanctification and grace.


The accomplished work of Jesus Christ on the cross has removed the stain of original sin from those who die in infancy . . .

So a child is born justified? If so, why would a person need to be spiritually "born again", when they receive spiritual life from their mother's womb?

Again, there is a difference between not being guilty of actual sin, and being justified with the indwelling Holy Ghost.

A child is not guilty of any sin, but that does not mean they are thereby justified. Justification pertains to the supernatural level. A person is justified when they have the Holy Ghost within them.

The first man was created in this state, but lost it for himself and all his posterity through the original sin. Jesus fulfilled the justicie of God, and as such we are now able to receive this supernatural life. That is why we need to be spiritually born again, by which the spiritual life of the Holy Ghost is infused into our soul.


John 1:17 "For the law was given by Moses, but [B]grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." Jesus instructed his disciples that they should "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God." There is no reason to believe that His grace does not extent to those who indeed are innocent of actually committing sins in the body.

I agree that innocent children can freely receive the grace of God, but they are not born in possession of it. Therefore, since we know that Jesus wants the little children to "come unto Him", He must have instituted a simple way by which these children, who are incapable of making an act of faith, can be born again and justified.

What is that simple means institued by God to bring children into the state of justification? What does it mean to be "born again of water and the Holy Ghost" (John 3)? What does water have to do with the second birth. Notice, it says we are born again (the second time) by water and the Holy Ghost. What could water possible have to do with being born again?

DSK
May 13th 2007, 02:13 PM
But the question I have yet to receive an answer to is how is an infant, who is incapable of making an act of faith, justified?

Or, for that matter, how is a "mute" (a person who can't speak), justified. How can a person who can't speak be justified by "confessing with their mouth". They are not cabable of speaking.

How are these two groups of people justified? The one cannot make and act of faith and the other cannot speak.

Does God have another way for such people to obtain justification? If so, how?

First of all this is getting off the main topic of the OP. Secondly, I don't claim to have all the answers. I only know that if Romans 10:9-10 is true, which I believe it is, then that presents a major problem for the Catholic position of infant baptism for salvation. I won't delve any deeper into this, unless you start a separate thread in the proper froum in which we can discuss your other questions, which are unrelated to the OP.

RSiscoe
May 13th 2007, 02:53 PM
First of all this is getting off the main topic of the OP. Secondly, I don't claim to have all the answers. I only know that if Romans 10:9-10 is true, which I believe it is, then that presents a major problem for the Catholic position of infant baptism for salvation. I won't delve any deeper into this, unless you start a separate thread in the proper froum in which we can discuss your other questions, which are unrelated to the OP.

I'll end the discussion by allowing St. Augustine (who you quote on the bottom of your posts) provide us with the answer:


St. Augustine: "And this is the firm tradition of the universal Church, in respect of the baptism of infants, who certainly are as yet unable "with the heart to believe unto righteousness, and with the mouth to make confession unto salvation," as the thief [on the cross] could do; nay, who even, by crying and moaning when the mystery is performed upon them, raise their voices in opposition to the mysterious words, and yet no Christian will say that they are baptized to no purpose.

"And if any one seek for divine authority in this matter, though what is held by the whole Church, and that not as instituted by Councils, but as a matter of invariable custom, is rightly held to have been handed down by apostolical authority, still we can form a true conjecture of the value of the sacrament of baptism in the case of infants, from the parallel of circumcision, which was received by God's earlier people, and before receiving which Abraham was justified, as Cornelius also was enriched with the gift of the Holy Spirit before he was baptized. Yet the apostle says of Abraham himself, that "he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith," having already believed in his heart, so that "it was counted unto him for righteousness." Why, therefore, was it commanded him that he should circumcise every male child in order on the eighth day, Genesis 17:9-14 though it could not yet believe with the heart, that it should be counted unto it for righteousness, because the sacrament in itself was of great avail? And this was made manifest by the message of an angel in the case of Moses' son; for when he was carried by his mother, being yet uncircumcised, it was required, by manifest present peril, that he should be circumcised, Exodus 4:24-26 and when this was done, the danger of death was removed. ... in Abraham the justification of faith came first, and circumcision was added afterwards as the seal of faith... in infants, who are baptized, the sacrament of regeneration is given first, and if they maintain a Christian piety, conversion also in the heart will follow ... And as in the thief the gracious goodness of the Almighty supplied what had been wanting in the sacrament of baptism, because it had been missing not from pride or contempt, but from want of opportunity; [u]so in infants who die baptized, we must believe that the same grace of the Almighty supplies the want [of faith], that, not from perversity of will, but from insufficiency of age, they can neither believe with the heart unto righteousness, nor make confession with the mouth unto salvation. Therefore, when others take the vows for them, that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete in their behalf, it is unquestionably of avail for their dedication to God, because they cannot answer for themselves." (St. Augustine, on Baptism, book 4, ch 23-34

Here is a link to the entire work, in which Augustine provides the answer to all the questions we have discussed: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/14084.htm

DSK
May 13th 2007, 04:30 PM
I'll end the discussion by allowing St. Augustine (who you quote on the bottom of your posts) provide us with the answer:



Here is a link to the entire work, in which Augustine provides the answer to all the questions we have discussed: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/14084.htm

Augustine is found in disagreement with Scripture when he says:
"in infants, who are baptized, the sacrament of regeneration is given first"

If we knew that regeneration came about at the time of baptism, then that would contradict Scripture which says:
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

If regeneration came about at baptism, we would know whence it cometh.

I'll stick with the Scriptures, the Church fathers were not divinely inspired in the same way the Holy Scriptures were.

Pilgrimtozion
May 13th 2007, 04:58 PM
OK, let's end the discussion on infant baptism here. Anybody who wishes to discuss it further can start a new thread. In fact, everything that can be said concerning the OP has most likely been said, so let's just close this one.