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Saved7
May 4th 2007, 03:19 PM
I have often wondered and many have debated what Jesus meant by this Particular verse. "DEPART FROM ME, I NEVER KNEW YOU, YOU THAT WORK INIQUITY".
I am certain I mentioned this in a post somewhere recently, but I thought I would like to just make a thread for it, in case others would like to have a better understanding of it.


Mat 7:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=15&version=kjv#15)¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 7:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=22&version=kjv#22)Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=23&version=kjv#23)And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


What is the iniquity here? Pride/waving their own banner of glory, though they did it "in Jesus' name", they are still boasting on what THEY did.



Mat 24:48 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=48&version=kjv#48)But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

Mat 24:49 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=49&version=kjv#49)And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

Mat 24:50 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=50&version=kjv#50)The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of,

Mat 24:51 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=51&version=kjv#51)And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Who is the servant here? And who is the lord here?
The lord here is Jesus as we all know, but notice, he called this person his servant who has "fellowservants". This is not a non-believer, but a believer who got puffed up with pride, it is the pastor with the rolex and the mercedes and the million dollar mansion and the entourage with the body guards. It's the one who got puffed up when his congregation grew so large that he felt he was the king and not Jesus. Pride.


Mat 25:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=25&verse=34&version=kjv#34)Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


Mat 25:35 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=25&verse=35&version=kjv#35)For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mat 25:36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=25&verse=36&version=kjv#36)Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Mat 25:37 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=25&verse=37&version=kjv#37)Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?

Mat 25:38 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=25&verse=38&version=kjv#38)When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?

Mat 25:39 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=25&verse=39&version=kjv#39)Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

Mat 25:40 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=25&verse=40&version=kjv#40)And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.


Mat 25:41 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=25&verse=41&version=kjv#41)Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:42 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=25&verse=42&version=kjv#42)For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Mat 25:43 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=25&verse=43&version=kjv#43)I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Mat 25:44 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=25&verse=44&version=kjv#44)Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Mat 25:45 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=25&verse=45&version=kjv#45)Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.


Mat 25:46 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=25&verse=46&version=kjv#46)And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Notice what type of people Jesus is talking about when he says He was "hungry and sick and in prison and so on". These were all the humble lowly NEEDY people. Not much glory to be had in serving the "LEAST/LOWLY/NEEDY/WRETCHED/" but Jesus calls them "ME".
Notice what is really going on here, the folks that ministered to the LEAST of these, did it because it was the natural thing to do.
But the folks who didn't minister to the LEAST of these, didn't do it because they didn't know that it was Jesus. As far as these folks were concerned unless there was some glory in it for themselves, they weren't doing it. Again, pride.



1 Tim 3:1-8

1Ti 3:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=3&verse=1&version=kjv#1)¶This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.


1Ti 3:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=3&verse=2&version=kjv#2)A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;...................



1Ti 3:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=3&verse=6&version=kjv#6)Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil........



1Ti 3:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=3&verse=8&version=kjv#8)¶Likewise [must] the deacons grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;



Isa 14:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=14&verse=12&version=kjv#12)¶How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!...........

Isa 14:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=14&verse=13&version=kjv#13)For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Isa 14:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=14&verse=14&version=kjv#14)I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Isa 14:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=14&verse=15&version=kjv#15)Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.



Eze 28:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eze&chapter=28&verse=13&version=kjv#13)Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eze&chapter=28&verse=14&version=kjv#14)Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eze&chapter=28&verse=15&version=kjv#15)Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Eze 28:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eze&chapter=28&verse=17&version=kjv#17)Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.


Watch the contrast, the ugliness of what I have already shown, and the beauty of humility that is being shown next.


Mat 18:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=18&verse=1&version=kjv#1)¶At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

Mat 18:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=18&verse=3&version=kjv#3)And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Mat 18:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=18&verse=4&version=kjv#4)Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 23:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=23&verse=11&version=kjv#11)But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.


Mar 9:35 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mar&chapter=9&verse=35&version=kjv#35)And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, [the same] shall be last of all, and servant of all.



Jhn 13:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=13&verse=5&version=kjv#5)After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe [them] with the towel wherewith he was girded.

Jhn 13:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=13&verse=6&version=kjv#6)Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost [B]thou wash my feet?

Phl 2:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Phl&chapter=2&verse=3&version=kjv#3)[Let] nothing through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Phl 2:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Phl&chapter=2&verse=5&version=kjv#5)¶Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Phl 2:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Phl&chapter=2&verse=6&version=kjv#6)Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Phl 2:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Phl&chapter=2&verse=7&version=kjv#7)But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of [B]a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


Phl 2:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Phl&chapter=2&verse=8&version=kjv#8)And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


Gal 5:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=19&version=kjv#19)Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=20&version=kjv#20)Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=21&version=kjv#21)Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Gal 5:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=22&version=kjv#22)But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,



Gal 5:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=23&version=kjv#23)Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 5:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=26&version=kjv#26)Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.



I believe that the "iniquity" in Matt 7:23 that Jesus is speaking of mostly is pride.



I think this just about says it all here, no one is getting into heaven waving their own banner of glory. No matter what we do or who we are, we are still just servants. And all that we do, all that we are, and all that we become and acheive, God is the one who did it. God created you for a purpose, we need to be careful not to let that purpose go to our heads, or we could fall from heaven also, and wind up in the pit of hell too. Let us all keep a humble heart never think ourselves as above the other. As God Himself was willing to humble Himself and be a servant, how much more ought we?

Well, I think I am done now, hope you all enjoyed this.:D

diffangle
May 4th 2007, 04:17 PM
Hello Saved7:)

The word iniquity in the Greek is anomia which means:


1) the condition of without law
a) because ignorant of it
b) because of violating it 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

AV (http://www.blueletterbible.org/help/av.html) - iniquity (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?show_strongs=yes&word=iniquity*+458) 12, unrighteousness (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?show_strongs=yes&word=unrighteousness*+458) 1, transgress the law (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?show_strongs=yes&word=transgress*+the*+law*+458+4160) + 4160 1,
transgression of law (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?show_strongs=yes&word=transgression*+of*+law*+*+458)1; 15


Imo, He's talking about those who transgress the Torah/Law/Instruction willingly and choose not to obey it. :( :)

Saved7
May 4th 2007, 04:27 PM
You are right, it does mean that. But followers of Christ are not under the law.
And if we try to live according to the law, then we are under the law and not under grace. And we are not able to live according to the law, which is why Christ died for us. To pay for our sins. And it is Christ who is saying "away from me".
Also, what did Jesus say are the greatest commandments? To love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength, and the second is like it, to love your neighbor as yourself.
Also, he said somewhere, maybe here, that in this is all the law and the prophets. And the description of love is quite humble, it places others before yourself. It is all connected.:saint:

Righton
May 4th 2007, 04:34 PM
Jesus spent more time discussing hypocrisy than any other sin. He said, "There he will share the fate of the hypocrites."

You see, hypocrisy is a very special sin. It is the ultimate in rebellion. The hypocrite has built his own artificial wall of protection around himself. "Ah, nothing will happen to me! I've been saved! My salvation is complete! I have all I need!" Knowing deep down he will be condemned, he is fastidious in keeping himself from harboring these deep, dark thoughts. He remains vigilant, busy, busy as a bee. He "helps others", he makes himself a martyr. He secretly loves the world's delights but he tells himself, "No! I am worthy! I am honest! I am true! I am saved!" He then goes out and "helps people". He prays! And he worships in the fellowship of others! "Hey, can't y'all see me? I'm pure and holy! I worship God! I pray with you! How ya doin', God? Nice seein' ya here!"

And yet he is a stranger to God. The LORD does not know him. All the hypocrite knows is, he belongs to God, this stranger that HE does not know either. The hypocrite alone has built his own world! His own utopia! His own bubble! Unconcerned that he may hurt others in the way, he simply lives. He craves! He is jealous! Deep inside, he is a raging lion! But he is so good at putting on a smiley face in front of everyone, he even deceives HIMSELF, and does not consider for the moment that his world is one created by his own hands. Uncontent to live in God's world, he rejects it and forms his own creation... an idol made by his own hands! Every time he brushes his teeth or combs his hair, the guy on the other side of the mirror is smiling back.

See, people? I smile! I smile all the time! Can't you see my teeth?

Ah, but those with insight NEVER look at the teeth! They look at the eyes!

And you can tell the hypocrite in plain sight. He's the one with a reddish look, masking that he is a slave of sin. He's the one who smiles with his teeth, but not with his eyes.

He does not even know what he looks like, because he can't bear to look at a picture of himself. He may glimpse, but that is good enough.

Then someone walks into the life of the hypocrite, someone who is NOT a hypocrite! What does this hypocrite do? He trembles! He shakes! Something is not right with the world! He HATES with a passion this non-hypocrite! And the hypocrite will work with all his might to detroy this non-hypocrite! He will not rest until he does him in, in some form or another. The hypocrite makes himself an enemy of The LORD, by going after the true believers he happens to find. They are the enemy!

When all the while, the hypocrite has made himself his own worst enemy! For while he was busy building his artificial bubble, he forgot--

forgot to check his mirror while he was building it. Forgot to look into his eyes, into his soul, to understand just WHY he spent so much time building this bubble! And next thing you know, he dies! His bubble gone, he goes before the Maker, fully expecting to find his Heavenly Home!

When all at once, the Savior shows up to judge him. "I never knew you!" He cries, and then at that moment...

The Savior holds up...

a mirror!

The hypocrite screams in agony...

an agony that is forever silenced!

-----------------------------------------------------

How do I know all this?

Easy. I pictured a relative-by-marriage of mine the entire time. Someone whose soul I have peered into myself -- and found it lacking.

Scary stuff. Pay attention, people, and make sure you do not share the fate of the hypocrites!

diffangle
May 4th 2007, 04:52 PM
which is why Christ died for us. To pay for our sins. And it is Christ who is saying "away from me".

Yes, He is saying "depart from Me you who practice Torahlessness/Lawlessness".[/quote]


Also, what did Jesus say are the greatest commandments? To love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength, and the second is like it, to love your neighbor as yourself.


Yes those sum up the 10 Commandments. By obeying the 10 Commandments then you are loving YHWH with all your heart and soul and strength and by obeying the 10 Commandments you will also love your neighbor.




Also, he said somewhere, maybe here, that in this is all the law and the prophets. And the description of love is quite humble, it places others before yourself. It is all connected.:saint:


He also said that the Law and Prophets will not pass until heaven and earth have passed away and they're still here.

Mat 5:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=18&version=kjv#18)For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Eliakim
May 4th 2007, 05:13 PM
"Yes, He is saying depart from Me you who practice Torahlessness/Lawlessness"

Not in my eyes. The whole epistle of Galatians is about freedom in christ. You are cursed if you are under the law.

Workers of iniquity are people that crept in unaware to confuse the sheep and make money on them with false religion i.E. the JW.

For it is by grace that we are saved through faith in Christ. Paul says that the righteus is not under the law and we are called to freedom. If you break a commandment doesn't mean you are a worker of iniquity. That's what Jesus paid for on the cross. If you face Jesus you don't say: Ohh, I did keep the 10 commandments. You say: I am a wretched man and I deserve hell but thanks to the LORD he saved me.

We got nothing to boast in. It is God that workes good in us, the willing and the doing. He will finish the good work that he started in us. It is the spirit that sets us free and works through us. The law just condems. The spirit will make us want to keep God's commandments but the law don't save.

So be careful you do not mix keepning the law with salvation. You might fall from grace if you are not saved yet and try to be saved by keeping the law.

That is how I comprehend the word of GOD.

Be blessed, Eliakim

blbcHelvsme
May 4th 2007, 05:24 PM
I talk a lot about this subject in my blog. The people that Jesus says to depart are those who only have a head knowledge of Jesus and trust the works instead of Jesus. These people have no faith, and thus can never please Him.



I could write a lot more on this, but if you want to know more of my views on this, than just click on the link to my blog in my signature.

Frances
May 4th 2007, 05:25 PM
(http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=23&version=kjv#23) he called this person his servant who has "fellowservants". This is not a non-believer, but a believer who got puffed up with pride, it is the pastor with the rolex and the mercedes and the million dollar mansion and the entourage with the body guards. It's the one who got puffed up when his congregation grew so large that he felt he was the king and not Jesus. Pride.

I suggest it may also be any member of any congregation who thinks they a 'better Christian' or even a better person than anyone else.

blbcHelvsme
May 4th 2007, 05:32 PM
I think that is would do good here.
Nah 1:7 Jehovah is good, a stronghold in the day of trouble; and He knows those who trust in Him.

the definition of stronghold is: a strongly fortified structure that is used for protection and defense. What great news to know that our Lord is our stronghold!!! He will protect us and keep us safe. He is like a shield that protects us even when we have to go into battle. He is also the foxhole that hides us when the enemy seems strong.

When we are in the stronghold of the Lord Jesus, we are not to cower. We are to become strong. We are to use this time to strengthen ourselves for the fight. We are to learn about the enemy and what his tactics and weapons are. We are to learn how to defend against them and when to attack. We are to make a wise strategy against the enemy for a foolish strategy will play into the hands of the enemy.

There will be times where it looks like the enemy is going to win. This is the time to press on. For our protector and defender is the Lord Jesus Himself. He will lead us into battle. Not to defeat the devil, for the devil has already been defeated. No, Jesus will lead us into battle to show us that we have already defeated the devil and his demons. We will be going to take back what is already ours!!! For the Lord said that the victory is ours!!!

All that the Lord Jesus ever asks is that we have a heart trust in Him. He knows us because we trust in Him. Remember Jesus tells those who doesn't have a heart trust in Him that He never knew them even though they preformed miracles and did good in His name. This is because they trusted in the works instead of Christ.
So do you trust the Lord Jesus to be your stronghold?

Jesusinmyheart
May 4th 2007, 06:54 PM
Obedience to the Law is not opposed to the free gift of salvation.
Grace comes in where i fall short of following the commands of God. This is why we are not under the curse of the Law anymore.

Rom 5:20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
Rom 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Do any of you see somehting here? To be crucified with Him, is to pick up your own cross and submitt your own flesh to obedience under God. If you don't follow the Law, then how are you obedient and dying to yourself ?

This may give you a more clear picture on who those are that work iniquity, even though they profess His name.

Saved7
May 4th 2007, 06:55 PM
I suggest it may also be any member of any congregation who thinks they a 'better Christian' or even a better person than anyone else.


Agreed.:agree:.................

teshuva
May 4th 2007, 07:12 PM
diffangle, I've gotta agree - anomia is 'whithout law/Torah'.

Also, when Jesus quotes the greatest commandments He is quoting from the Torah:

Deut. 6:5 - "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might."

Leviticus 19:18 - "...but you shall love your neighbour as thyself; I AM the LORD."

These are in the Torah, but not part of the 10 commandments. Yet, as per Jesus, they are commandments nonetheless. We are called to 'walk' like Jesus, that's what He meant when He said follow Me - not in order to gain salvation, but because it exhibits God's nature thru us and to the world. But it is not thru works, BUT you were created for good works, which God described in His Word, and Jesus displayed in the flesh.

Jesus Himself said in Luke 6:40, "..every disciple fully trained will BE LIKE HIS MASTER.' So, I agree, we're supposed to do what He did.
Not as a yoke which was a burden, that Peter talks about. Even Jesus said in Matt. 23:4 -
"They (Pharisees) tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger."

These were man-made laws that the sages ADDED to God's commandments. But Jesus told his disciples to take up His yoke, not the yoke of the rabbis, which were commands that were ADDED to the law. His yoke is easy (Matt. 11:29-30) His burden is light (in Greek elaphros), that means it's not a burden at all. His yoke, or clear interpretation of God's law/Torah, opened our eyes to kindness, mercy, love, & righteousness.

Jesus untangled the teachings of God (Jesus IS God and wrote the Law), from all the man-made 'extras' that were added on.
In His example we learn how we should act, how we should walk.

Whenever the law was given He described blessings and curses. We're free from the curses but do we want to be free from the blessings? This was a kind, gentle yoke.
In Galatians 3:8 God says He "preached the Gospel beforehand to Abraham." It was, and still is, a Gospel of grace, thru faith. It was NEVER intended to achieve salvation, but to teach us how to walk in holiness, righteousness!

dan
May 7th 2007, 12:01 AM
You are right, it does mean that. But followers of Christ are not under the law.
And if we try to live according to the law, then we are under the law and not under grace. And we are not able to live according to the law, which is why Christ died for us. To pay for our sins. And it is Christ who is saying "away from me".
Also, what did Jesus say are the greatest commandments? To love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength, and the second is like it, to love your neighbor as yourself.
Also, he said somewhere, maybe here, that in this is all the law and the prophets. And the description of love is quite humble, it places others before yourself. It is all connected.:saint:

...The rest of the NT? Why is Jesus' Walk On The Earth not the last word?
Why the Gentile Law:

ACTS 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
ACTS 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Why warn us of, or send the Holy Spirit:

MK 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
MK 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

JN 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
JN 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
JN 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.
JN 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.

Why tell us to kill (IMO), prefacing it with His Own Words :

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear:
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

REV 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
REV 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
REV 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

diffangle
May 7th 2007, 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frances http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1250112#post1250112)
I suggest it may also be any member of any congregation who thinks they a 'better Christian' or even a better person than anyone else.


Agreed.:agree:.................



But is that what the Scriptures say? The word for iniquity is anomia in the Greek which means Lawlessness. What do you think the Law was in Yahushua's day? :confused

TEITZY
May 7th 2007, 01:35 AM
I have often wondered and many have debated what Jesus meant by this Particular verse. "DEPART FROM ME, I NEVER KNEW YOU, YOU THAT WORK INIQUITY".
I am certain I mentioned this in a post somewhere recently, but I thought I would like to just make a thread for it, in case others would like to have a better understanding of it.


Mat 7:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=15&version=kjv#15)¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 7:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=22&version=kjv#22)Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=23&version=kjv#23)And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


What is the iniquity here? Pride/waving their own banner of glory, though they did it "in Jesus' name", they are still boasting on what THEY did.



John simply defines "iniquity" (lawlessness) as "sin" (1 John 3:4). John then compares those who "practice lawlessness" (unbelievers) with those who "practice righteousness" (believers). In Matt 7:20 Jesus says, "by their fruits you will know them", and when one examines the lifestyle of false teachers it becomes apparent that they are depraved and unholy. Like the Pharisees, outwardly & publically they appear squeaky clean but inwardly and privately they are full of "all uncleanness". Look what Paul says about false teachers in 2 Tim 3:1-5

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

Underneath that thin veneer of 'godliness' hides a ravening beast and the beast will eventually come out (2 Tim 3:9). The problem with many Christians today is they simply lack discernment in these matters. They're anamoured by the charisma of men and the 'signs and wonders' they supposedly perform but they largely ignore the false doctrine and ungodly lifestyles of these false prophets. Matt 7 reveals the same attitude in the false teachers themselves, they emphasize all the 'good' they supposedly did in Jesus' name but Christ will see straight through their hypocrisy and pronounce judgment on those who professed Christ but in reality practiced lawlessness.

Cheers
Leigh

Colossians 3:17
May 7th 2007, 02:17 AM
Jesus spent more time discussing hypocrisy than any other sin. He said, "There he will share the fate of the hypocrites."

You see, hypocrisy is a very special sin. It is the ultimate in rebellion. The hypocrite has built his own artificial wall of protection around himself. "Ah, nothing will happen to me! I've been saved! My salvation is complete! I have all I need!" Knowing deep down he will be condemned, he is fastidious in keeping himself from harboring these deep, dark thoughts. He remains vigilant, busy, busy as a bee. He "helps others", he makes himself a martyr. He secretly loves the world's delights but he tells himself, "No! I am worthy! I am honest! I am true! I am saved!" He then goes out and "helps people". He prays! And he worships in the fellowship of others! "Hey, can't y'all see me? I'm pure and holy! I worship God! I pray with you! How ya doin', God? Nice seein' ya here!"

And yet he is a stranger to God. The LORD does not know him. All the hypocrite knows is, he belongs to God, this stranger that HE does not know either. The hypocrite alone has built his own world! His own utopia! His own bubble! Unconcerned that he may hurt others in the way, he simply lives. He craves! He is jealous! Deep inside, he is a raging lion! But he is so good at putting on a smiley face in front of everyone, he even deceives HIMSELF, and does not consider for the moment that his world is one created by his own hands. Uncontent to live in God's world, he rejects it and forms his own creation... an idol made by his own hands! Every time he brushes his teeth or combs his hair, the guy on the other side of the mirror is smiling back.

See, people? I smile! I smile all the time! Can't you see my teeth?

Ah, but those with insight NEVER look at the teeth! They look at the eyes!

And you can tell the hypocrite in plain sight. He's the one with a reddish look, masking that he is a slave of sin. He's the one who smiles with his teeth, but not with his eyes.

He does not even know what he looks like, because he can't bear to look at a picture of himself. He may glimpse, but that is good enough.

Then someone walks into the life of the hypocrite, someone who is NOT a hypocrite! What does this hypocrite do? He trembles! He shakes! Something is not right with the world! He HATES with a passion this non-hypocrite! And the hypocrite will work with all his might to detroy this non-hypocrite! He will not rest until he does him in, in some form or another. The hypocrite makes himself an enemy of The LORD, by going after the true believers he happens to find. They are the enemy!

When all the while, the hypocrite has made himself his own worst enemy! For while he was busy building his artificial bubble, he forgot--

forgot to check his mirror while he was building it. Forgot to look into his eyes, into his soul, to understand just WHY he spent so much time building this bubble! And next thing you know, he dies! His bubble gone, he goes before the Maker, fully expecting to find his Heavenly Home!

When all at once, the Savior shows up to judge him. "I never knew you!" He cries, and then at that moment...

The Savior holds up...

a mirror!

The hypocrite screams in agony...

an agony that is forever silenced!

-----------------------------------------------------

How do I know all this?

Easy. I pictured a relative-by-marriage of mine the entire time. Someone whose soul I have peered into myself -- and found it lacking.

Scary stuff. Pay attention, people, and make sure you do not share the fate of the hypocrites!

This is a great post...I really helps me to realize how I can be hypocritical and how sometimes I can let the focus shift from God to glorifying myself.

It is something I definitely need to work on...Aren't we all sinners though?? Doesn't EVERYONE do this to a certain degree?

I'm not trying to justify it, I just don't think you can lump all the people Jesus is condemning into the category of people who have EVER been hypocritical at one time or another.

Colossians 3:17
May 7th 2007, 02:19 AM
I suggest it may also be any member of any congregation who thinks they a 'better Christian' or even a better person than anyone else.


Have you honestly never felt this way towards another person?? Not that it's a good thing, but I've ran across some GREAT Christians, and not one has ever denied feeling this way towards others at some point...It is certainly a bad thing to do and we all need to work on it, but I don't think that you go to hell for doing that.

I definitely don't think those are the people that Jesus is referring to in those verses.

DeafPosttrib
May 7th 2007, 05:26 AM
Teitzy said:


John simply defines "iniquity" (lawlessness) as "sin" (1 John 3:4). John then compares thoese who "practice lawlessness" (unbelievers) with thoese who "practice righteousness" (believers). In Matt. 7:20 Jesus says, "by their fruits you will know them", and when one examines the lifestyle of false teachers it becomes apprarent that they are depraved and unholy. Like the Pharisees, outwardly & publically they appear squeakly clean but inwardly and privately they are full of "all uncleaness."

:agree: Teitzy is right.

Matt. 7:23 gives us the scene, it is talks about Judgment Day. All inidividuals shall face the judgment seat of Christ.

Many religions do works for the Lord. I am sure that they do follow scaraments, Ten Commandments, Mosaic Laws, etc. They are trying to earn their own good works to enter heaven.

But, Christ shall saying to them, they shall depart from Him, go into everlasting fire, because of their wicked. Christ's emphasis to us that we ought to repent our sins, and command us to life clean and holy.

Myself used to believe in security salvation for long time. Now, I realized the Bible shows us there are so overhwhelmed of these are conditional salvation.

God does interesting us to do and follow His commandments, but, he expecting us as confession people. God expects us to confess our sins faithfully, so, He will forgive us our sins. OR, if we do not confess our sins, then He would not forgive us. - 1 John 1:9.

Of course, there are lot of hyprocrites in the churches today, either congregation or pastors, they are hyprocrites, because of thier iniquities, that they not yet confess their sins to God. God knows in their hearts.

Our good works mean worthless, unless if we confess our sins to Christ faithfully. We ought to walk in the light, so, we can continue our works and obey His commandments same time. We cannot serve two masters at the same time, that mean, we cannot continue sinning while do good works or serve the Lord same time. That why He hates hyprocrite. Lot of hyprocrites are in the hell, because of without confess their sins to Christ.

Bible commands us to confess our sins to Christ faithfully, to keep our life clean, and remain walk in the light all the times. If we continue in sinning without confess, and remain in the dark, then we are on the way to destruction-hell.

Many claim, they know Christ, but remain in dark, they are LIARS - 1 John 1:6. See? It mentioned of hyprocrites. God hate hyprocrites. NO hyprocrites are in New Jerusalem, only honest people are in New Jerusalem, because they walk in the light while keep the commandments same time (1 John 2:3).

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

cwb
May 7th 2007, 05:57 AM
I believe that Matthew 7:22 is key in understanding what Jesus said in Matthew 7:23.

verse 22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

verse 23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Notice the emphasis of those speaking in verse 22. Have we not prophesied? , have we not done many wodenderful works. When speaking to the lord on theat day, they are trying to glorify their own works. Rather than saying, "lord, look at all the great things we have done.", they should be saying on that day, "Lord, Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! for all the great and wonderful things you have done for me." Maybe if they would say thank you instead, the Lord would say to them "you're welcome!"

Jesusinmyheart
May 7th 2007, 09:48 AM
cwb,

i think that's not quite a match either as plausible that would sound otherwise.

The verses i'm about to post start the whole context of this:

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Then a little bit about good trees and bad trees:

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Then back on topic:

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So it's really about false prophets, no doubt about it. And the word prophet isn't just for those that tell of future events, but the same word is used for those that teach scripture.
That's why i don't think it's much about pride either.

I am convinced it's plainly about those that teach false doctrine, and those that follow it. They come in sheeps clothing, appearing to be pure and innocent like a lamb, but really are wolves that will take you to the same place they will go.

TEITZY
May 7th 2007, 10:22 AM
I believe that Matthew 7:22 is key in understanding what Jesus said in Matthew 7:23.

verse 22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

verse 23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Notice the emphasis of those speaking in verse 22. Have we not prophesied? , have we not done many wodenderful works. When speaking to the lord on theat day, they are trying to glorify their own works. Rather than saying, "lord, look at all the great things we have done.", they should be saying on that day, "Lord, Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! for all the great and wonderful things you have done for me." Maybe if they would say thank you instead, the Lord would say to them "you're welcome!"

Yes their emphasis is certainly on self but at this point in time it wouldn't have mattered what they had said since they were never saved to begin with.

Cheers
Leigh

jiggyfly
May 7th 2007, 11:53 AM
The greek word is adikia and it means unrighteousness or wrong or unjust.

Taken in context, Jesus said they were workers of unrighteousness and yet they were doing good things in His name. They were not abiding in Him. Keeping or should I say trying to keep the Law without abiding in Christ is unrighteousness and if you abide in Him you are righteous because He is our righteousness. Once someone has come to Christ, to try and do things to make them more righteous or add to their stature is a slap in the face to Christ. In the time of the old covenant the law was the teacher but in the new covenant HolySpirit is the teacher. You can not agree with both, to say that some parts of the old covenant are still needed is to say that you have found the new covenant lacking and therefore disagreeing with it. I agree with some of the posts in that the scriptures in the OP has everything to do with the religous works of man vrs. Christ's works in and through us. So these workers of iniquity are those who did not deny self and take up their cross.

Faithwalker
May 7th 2007, 12:35 PM
Matt 7:23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."



Imo, He's talking about those who transgress the Torah/Law/Instruction willingly and choose not to obey it. :( :)

I nearly spewed my coffee reading that.

Do you realize what you are saying? :confused

Jesus said "Depart from me you that 'transgress the Torah/Law'


Is it not a fact, that you law keepers say your 'keeping of the law isnt a 'salvation issue' ? Yet, the the words "depart from me" certainly dont translate into 'you are saved' by any stretch of the imagination.

So which is it - the grace thru faith that Jesus preached, or grace thru faith and the law that you preach? You cant have salvation your way, because grace can only begin where the requirements of the law ends. Paul said if you are trying to add law to grace, then you dont know what the law requires of you. I will go further and say, you dont know the meaning of grace.


Here you have Jesus saying, you are lost if you dont keep the Torah Law...and yet by His own oft repeated words thru out the gospels (which the reader does`nt have to know Greek or own a lexicon to understand the simplicity of) Jesus says "by grace are you saved thru faith in Him."

You preachers of the law, keep trying to add knowledge of the Torah, and keeping of the law, to the gift of Gods grace, and in doing so you take the simplicity of the gospel and make it so comlicated, one would have to be educated in Hebraic Law to have God say "I know you."

I agree with the OP, PRIDE is the evil that keeps men and women, especially those this passage is referring to, who 'profess to know God' from accepting the simple gift of Gods grace.

Matt 7:12 Therefore, whatever you want people to do for you, do the same for them, for this is the Law and the Prophets...
Then I will tell them [those graceless 'doers', which Christ just described] plainly, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!'

jiggyfly
May 7th 2007, 01:02 PM
Matt 7:23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."



I nearly spewed my coffee reading that.

Do you realize what you are saying? :confused

Jesus said "Depart from me you that 'transgress the Torah/Law'


Is it not a fact, that you law keepers say your 'keeping of the law isnt a 'salvation issue' ? Yet, the the words "depart from me" certainly dont translate into 'you are saved' by any stretch of the imagination.

So which is it - the grace thru faith that Jesus preached, or grace thru faith and the law that you preach? You cant have salvation your way, because grace can only begin where the requirements of the law ends. Paul said if you are trying to add law to grace, then you dont know what the law requires of you. I will go further and say, you dont know the meaning of grace.


Here you have Jesus saying, you are lost if you dont keep the Torah Law...and yet by His own oft repeated words thru out the gospels (which the reader does`nt have to know Greek or own a lexicon to understand the simplicity of) Jesus says "by grace are you saved thru faith in Him."

You preachers of the law, keep trying to add knowledge of the Torah, and keeping of the law, to the gift of Gods grace, and in doing so you take the simplicity of the gospel and make it so comlicated, one would have to be educated in Hebraic Law to have God say "I know you."

I agree with the OP, PRIDE is the evil that keeps men and women, especially those this passage is referring to, who 'profess to know God' from accepting the simple gift of Gods grace.

Matt 7:12 Therefore, whatever you want people to do for you, do the same for them, for this is the Law and the Prophets...
Then I will tell them [those graceless 'doers', which Christ just described] plainly, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!'

Great post Faithwalker, thank you.

diffangle
May 7th 2007, 02:29 PM
to keep the Law without abiding in Christ is unrighteousness and if you abide in Him you are righteous because He is our righteousness.


The Word/Law is not seperate from Him, He IS the Word. They're One in the Same. He was Torah observant b/c He IS the Word in the flesh. What do you believe "abiding in Him" means? Does it mean believe in Him but have disdain for His Word? How do those match up? :confused

John 1


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



You can not agree with both, to say that some parts of the old covenant are still needed is to say that you have found the new covenant lacking and therefore disagreeing with it.


You can agree with both. Yahushua reiterated the Torah since, once again, He is the Torah in the flesh. When did He break Torah? :hmm:

Jesusinmyheart
May 7th 2007, 07:09 PM
So which is it - the grace thru faith that Jesus preached, or grace thru faith and the law that you preach? You cant have salvation your way, because grace can only begin where the requirements of the law ends. Paul said if you are trying to add law to grace, then you dont know what the law requires of you. I will go further and say, you dont know the meaning of grace.
1) please show me above mentioned scripture
2) Grace is extended to us freely, obedience out of love to our Master follows naturally.


Here you have Jesus saying, you are lost if you dont keep the Torah Law...and yet by His own oft repeated words thru out the gospels (which the reader does`nt have to know Greek or own a lexicon to understand the simplicity of) Jesus says "by grace are you saved thru faith in Him."

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

jiggyfly
May 8th 2007, 01:05 AM
The Word/Law is not seperate from Him, He IS the Word. They're One in the Same. He was Torah observant b/c He IS the Word in the flesh. What do you believe "abiding in Him" means? Does it mean believe in Him but have disdain for His Word? How do those match up? :confused

John 1


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



You can agree with both. Yahushua reiterated the Torah since, once again, He is the Torah in the flesh. When did He break Torah? :hmm:

This is your opinion of which God's word nor I agree with. Why do you think God instituted a New Covenant??? They do not mix and like I said earlier, anyone who thinks that we need any part of the old Covenant today is disrepecting Christ, period. FYI, Jesus is no longer in the flesh. If he is the torah then He must be the sabboth also. So how do you keep Yeshua holy???

Faithwalker
May 8th 2007, 01:54 AM
1) please show me above mentioned scripture
2) Grace is extended to us freely, obedience out of love to our Master follows naturally.



Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

I`m sure you are familiar with the scripture.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, those of you who want to live under the law: Are you really listening to what the law says?

Christ never asked us to obey the OT law, so saying "we obey out of love to our master" just sounds real commendable, but doesnt add any credibility to anyone trying to add to Christs finished work on the cross with their own.


What law is Paul referring too in Romans 2:13?
Certianly not the OT law, unless this apostle would contradict himself all over the place, as you preachers of the law would have him do.

Paul said he was "blameless" regarding the keeping of the OT law,
and that religeous zealot thought he had something to boast about, but amazingly enough, it took God blinding him to open his eyes to the perfect law of liberty to be found in Christ.
To wit we find Luke (if thats who wrote Acts - who was with Paul) saying: "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment"

Jesusinmyheart
May 8th 2007, 03:24 AM
You know Faithwalker,

Even if i showd you truth of scripture up and down the whole book you would refuse to see it, as evidenced by the title of calling us "lawkeepers"

That's ok though, i'd rather carry that title then any other. However i do not agree with the negative twist you're trying to give it.

I obviosuly do not agree with the way you read Galatians, and therefore i'll refrain from going round and round with you, as it won't do anyone any good. So you can say you won....

I rest in the peace that i know my way quite well as God saw it fit to reveal the narrow path to me.

diffangle
May 8th 2007, 04:22 AM
This is your opinion of which God's word nor I agree with. Why do you think God instituted a New Covenant??? They do not mix and like I said earlier, anyone who thinks that we need any part of the old Covenant today is disrepecting Christ, period. FYI, Jesus is no longer in the flesh. If he is the torah then He must be the sabboth also. So how do you keep Yeshua holy???

Before I address your questions, I need to know if you're appraoching me in strife? If so, then it is not a fruit of the Spirit and wouldn't be beneficial for you or the rest of the Body to continue.


I`m sure you are familiar with the scripture.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, those of you who want to live under the law: Are you really listening to what the law says?


Are you familiar with the oral law verses the Written Law?


Christ never asked us to obey the OT law, so saying "we obey out of love to our master" just sounds real commendable, but doesnt add any credibility to anyone trying to add to Christs finished work on the cross with their own.


What did Yahushua mean when He said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the Prophets... For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law" ?



What law is Paul referring too in Romans 2:13?
Certianly not the OT law, unless this apostle would contradict himself all over the place, as you preachers of the law would have him do.


First of all, why all the hostility towards fellow believer's? Second, Paul didn't preach against the Written Law.



Paul said he was "blameless" regarding the keeping of the OT law, and that religeous zealot thought he had something to boast about, but amazingly enough, it took God blinding him to open his eyes to the perfect law of liberty to be found in Christ.


Paul was a Pharisee and he was persecuting believer's in Messiah... which hardly makes him Torah observant prior to his experience on the road to Damascus. The Pharisees were Edomites, iow... descendants of Esau and Ishmael... Ishmael, the son of the bondwoman and from Arabia... who later became part of Jewry.




To wit we find Luke (if thats who wrote Acts - who was with Paul) saying: "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment"

Oral law involved here... Pharisaic teachings.

cwb
May 8th 2007, 08:07 AM
Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Let's not take this verse out of context. The bible tells us how many people fall into the category of of being justified by doing the law.

Romans 3:20 - 23
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

So, there is only one person who can really claim to be a doer of the law. That is Jesus christ. Everybody else has fallen short. Thanks be to God that He paid the penalty for us.

Faithwalker
May 8th 2007, 10:26 AM
You know Faithwalker,

Even if i showd you truth of scripture up and down the whole book you would refuse to see it, as evidenced by the title of calling us "lawkeepers"

That's ok though, i'd rather carry that title then any other. However i do not agree with the negative twist you're trying to give it.

I obviosuly do not agree with the way you read Galatians, and therefore i'll refrain from going round and round with you, as it won't do anyone any good. So you can say you won....

I rest in the peace that i know my way quite well as God saw it fit to reveal the narrow path to me.

You admit to being a lawkeeper, are even admittely proud to wear the title, but object to being referred to as one :confused

The narrow path as you put it, is nothing more than narrowness of vision.
The whole of the scripture from OT to New, is a beautiful portrait of Christ, and Gods plan of redemption of mankind from the curse of sin and the law. The trouble is, some have thier faces pressed so closed to the painting, they cannot see the whole picture. The negative twist you see, comes from Gods stroke of the brush, not my own, right about where He blotted out the handwriting of ordinances agianst us. (Col 2:14)


It remains that "my way" is not Gods way, nor will it ever be. If you want to find real rest for your soul, Christ implores you [ALL], to accept His completed work, and quit trying to find favor with God by staying at the drawing board. The portrait of redemption is complete, and perfect. amen

uric3
May 8th 2007, 01:26 PM
I think Matt 7:15-23 is talking about those who practice lawlessness as well as other things mentioned look in Acts 15 when they tried to bind the OT and say that you had to do this and that to be saved when in the law of Christ that is done away with look at Gal 1:6-10 we see that they didn't leave Christ and worship another God per-say however they did pervert the gospel of Christ and teach and go by things that were not part of the gospel... look at Gal 5:1-4 he tells them if they go back to the OT they are a debtor to the whole law and Christ profits them nothing...

We have a lot of "churches" today who do just that... they follow 2nd Tim 4:3-4 to a tee which states "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

There are "churches" out there that go to please men rather than God. Want to be Gay an OK then come to this church we allow homosexuals even though the Bible is against it... Wanna remarry because your wife can't cook or doesn't look as good as she did... come to this church we say marriage and remarriage is aok forget Matt 19. Wanna skip church to watch sports on Sunday or go fishing come to this church we teach you never have to come unless you want to...

Those people are just wasting their time... no offense but lets face it they go to that church because they are ok with them living in sin and doing this wrong or that wrong and they say its ok... those are the people who are going to say to God but didn't we do this and this... and Gods going to tell them no I never knew you you workers of lawlessness because they had the Bible they know that, thats spelled out in black and white to be wrong yet they allowed it to go on... Just my 2 cents.

diffangle
May 8th 2007, 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diffangle http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1249996#post1249996)
Imo, He's talking about those who transgress the Torah/Law/Instruction willingly and choose not to obey it. :( :)


I nearly spewed my coffee reading that.

Do you realize what you are saying? :confused

Jesus said "Depart from me you that 'transgress the Torah/Law'


You conveniently left out the part where I posted "willingly and choose not to obey it." :hmm:


Is it not a fact, that you law keepers say your 'keeping of the law isnt a 'salvation issue' ? Yet, the the words "depart from me" certainly dont translate into 'you are saved' by any stretch of the imagination.


I can't make sense of what you are trying to convey.


So which is it - the grace thru faith that Jesus preached, or grace thru faith and the law that you preach? You cant have salvation your way, because grace can only begin where the requirements of the law ends. Paul said if you are trying to add law to grace, then you dont know what the law requires of you. I will go further and say, you dont know the meaning of grace.


Grace and obedience are two different things.


Here you have Jesus saying, you are lost if you dont keep the Torah Law...

Again, if you practice Lawlessness willingly.... meaning, when one is continually faced with the knowledge of His Commandments and yet always chooses disobedience.



You preachers of the law, keep trying to add knowledge of the Torah, and keeping of the law, to the gift of Gods grace, and in doing so you take the simplicity of the gospel and make it so comlicated, one would have to be educated in Hebraic Law to have God say "I know you."

Anyone who loves Him and has a strong desire to obey Him will not view knowing His Word as complicated... the Holy Spirit is a great teacher.


I agree with the OP, PRIDE is the evil that keeps men and women, especially those this passage is referring to, who 'profess to know God' from accepting the simple gift of Gods grace.


Those "who profess to know God" are the ones who reject what Yahushua did for us... the Pharisees... the ones that had a hand in His death... so "professing" is all that it is, it's not a true belief and love for Him. Are you under the impression that me and the others who choose obedience to His Word aren't believer's in the Messiah? :confused

teshuva
May 8th 2007, 04:12 PM
Since we're grafted in (Romans 11) to Israel and partake of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31), then we are part of the 'olive tree' and the Law will be written on our hearts.
We teach OT morality, but at the same time claim Jesus abolished the OT. Does this mean we're free to sin, and sin freely? What is sin?

IJohn 3:4 - Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

John wrote this in the power of the Holy Spirit.

So what then? Do we pick and choose what to obey and what not to do? By what standard do we do this - our own? We believe God gave standards that do not change. That there is a way to walk, and it's a gentle way as shown to us by our Master, Jesus. Not in order to earn salvation, but in order for us to display His character to the world, his instructions are not a curse, but a gentle example of how to live a righteous life in a sinful world. So we're not to be self-righteous, but righteousness comes from 'imitation' of Jesus, who walked in obedience to the instructions. Jesus, Himself, wrote the law - He IS God and was with God. It was God who spoke from Mt. Sinai.

We need a standard - He is our standard, our only source, our authority on how we should act as believers.

Luke 16:29-31 "Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. (30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham; but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent. (31) And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

There was no NT in Jesus time - He taught from Moses and the Prophets.

Jesus said, "For had you believed Moses, you would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words?" (John 5:46-47)

It takes Moses to understand Christ. 85% of what Jesus taught was from OT.
The written Word is the Word that came in the flesh. He's the same yesterday (in the OT), today, and forever.

The purpose of the law is to convict us of sin and instruct us in righteousness:

Romans 7:7 - What shall we say then? Is the law SIN? God Fobid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law; for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet."

The purpose is to reveal Jesus to us individually:

Luke 24:27 "And beginning at Moses, and all the prophets He (Jesus) expounded to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."

He chooses to reveal Himself to them thru the Law. They had seen and experieced the living Messiah within the testimony of Moses.

Romans 10:5 - "For Moses describes the righteousness which is of the law. That the man which DOES those things shall live by them."

I'm not arguing or trying to cause strife, just feel these scriptures need to be considered. We are here to discuss Him and show forth our love for Him.
Jesus said in Luke 6:40 "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master."
He also says, "Be Holy, as I AM Holy."
We need to imitate Him according to the life He's illustrated.

Righton
May 8th 2007, 05:37 PM
This is a great post...I really helps me to realize how I can be hypocritical and how sometimes I can let the focus shift from God to glorifying myself.

It is something I definitely need to work on...Aren't we all sinners though?? Doesn't EVERYONE do this to a certain degree?

I'm not trying to justify it, I just don't think you can lump all the people Jesus is condemning into the category of people who have EVER been hypocritical at one time or another.

Thank you, Jdu. I was hoping I'd get some input on it.

I was thinking someone might challenge me about the part about peering into this relative's soul and finding it a bit lacking. I thought maybe someone would consider that judging [or maybe some thought that, just nobody said anything]. Well, it is judging. But we who are in Christ are supposed to judge each other. We are to judge our fellow Christians to the extent that we can tell whether each is a true child of God or an imposter. It is my belief that this member is a hypocrite, in full.

Yes, we all are like this to a certain extent, but the hypocrite is the one who has built a wall of rebellion against The LORD. He does not utter true prayers. He does not grow. He remains a child in The LORD, and puts on a good show. But inside he is a ravenous tiger. Petty jealousies are his forte.

We all grow and fall back in our own ways. But I was describing what Jesus referred to as "the fate of the hypocrites". When the only true thing that can be said about you is that you are a hypocrite, a phony through-and-through who does not even know the Christ you claim to. These are worse in God's eyes than a mass murderer. The deepest darkness awaits them. For they are imposters, and they make a mockery of The LORD.

Ezekiel 13
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who are now prophesying. Say to those who prophesy out of their own imagination: 'Hear the word of the LORD! 3 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the foolish [a] prophets who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing! 4 Your prophets, O Israel, are like jackals among ruins. 5 You have not gone up to the breaks in the wall to repair it for the house of Israel so that it will stand firm in the battle on the day of the LORD. 6 Their visions are false and their divinations a lie. They say, "The LORD declares," when the LORD has not sent them; yet they expect their words to be fulfilled. 7 Have you not seen false visions and uttered lying divinations when you say, "The LORD declares," though I have not spoken?
8 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because of your false words and lying visions, I am against you, declares the Sovereign LORD. 9 My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.

10 " 'Because they lead my people astray, saying, "Peace," when there is no peace, and because, when a flimsy wall is built, they cover it with whitewash, 11 therefore tell those who cover it with whitewash that it is going to fall. Rain will come in torrents, and I will send hailstones hurtling down, and violent winds will burst forth. 12 When the wall collapses, will people not ask you, "Where is the whitewash you covered it with?"

13 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: In my wrath I will unleash a violent wind, and in my anger hailstones and torrents of rain will fall with destructive fury. 14 I will tear down the wall you have covered with whitewash and will level it to the ground so that its foundation will be laid bare. When it [b] falls, you will be destroyed in it; and you will know that I am the LORD. 15 So I will spend my wrath against the wall and against those who covered it with whitewash. I will say to you, "The wall is gone and so are those who whitewashed it, 16 those prophets of Israel who prophesied to Jerusalem and saw visions of peace for her when there was no peace, declares the Sovereign LORD." '

This wall is what I was alluding to when I referenced "the hypocrite's bubble". The NIV is a little harder to follow than some, but the false prophets are not the ones who contructed this figurative wall. The wall was built [a psychological wall... of one's own mind] by rebellious people, and the false prophets come along and put whitewash on it, saying that all is well when all is NOT well! That is what I was alluding to.

The hypocrite, IOW, does not really know how to pray. He only mimics true prayer. His entire life is built on deception and lies.

I hope you find this helpful, Jdu. Let me know if you want me to elaborate further.

Edited to add: I'd say a hypocrite of this magnitude would not even be on this website, unless maybe to stir up trouble. A hypocrite I describe here wants growth as a no resort. Growing is the LAST thing a hypocrite wants to do.

Righton
May 8th 2007, 05:42 PM
I believe that Matthew 7:22 is key in understanding what Jesus said in Matthew 7:23.

verse 22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

verse 23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Notice the emphasis of those speaking in verse 22. Have we not prophesied? , have we not done many wodenderful works. When speaking to the lord on theat day, they are trying to glorify their own works. Rather than saying, "lord, look at all the great things we have done.", they should be saying on that day, "Lord, Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! for all the great and wonderful things you have done for me." Maybe if they would say thank you instead, the Lord would say to them "you're welcome!"

Good insight, Cwb.

I think the saved shall be humble on that Great Day.

"Whoever wants to be great must be the least among you."

Righton
May 8th 2007, 05:49 PM
"I am convinced it's plainly about those that teach false doctrine, and those that follow it. They come in sheeps clothing, appearing to be pure and innocent like a lamb, but really are wolves that will take you to the same place they will go."

Or they may belong to a church which teachers true doctrine. But they are themselves hypocrites. As in the parable Jesus told of the uninvited guest in His mansion.

Jesusinmyheart
May 8th 2007, 06:02 PM
"I am convinced it's plainly about those that teach false doctrine, and those that follow it. They come in sheeps clothing, appearing to be pure and innocent like a lamb, but really are wolves that will take you to the same place they will go."

This is correct. Only you will have two camps of people here as evidenced in this very thread that will both think they are saved, and will be accepted into the kingdom of heaven, and both camps claim to be right.
And both camps point to the other being wrong in this thread.....unfortunately, one out of the two has to be right.....

I know where i'm going, and it's going to be good, and i won't regret it.

Jesusinmyheart
May 8th 2007, 06:13 PM
Faithwalker:


You admit to being a lawkeeper, are even admittely proud to wear the title, but object to being referred to as one What you don't understand, is that we uphold the Law, and yet live by Faith.

Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

In your eyes i'm a "lawkeeper" in God's eye i'm an obedient child, and he knows my heart and my desire to walk in His instructions.
I never claimed that this obedience will earn me salvation, cause it cannot be earned, it's a FREE gift.
What obedience will earn me however is Joy and peace, and blessings.

Those that seek truth will find it.
I pray that many will be blessed with eyes that can see.

Righton
May 8th 2007, 06:47 PM
Jesusinmyheart, the above was not written by me. There was one statement I wanted to comment on, but did not want to use the quote feature. However, I forgot to put the name of the one who wrote it. Actualy, I'm thinking it was you!

Jesusinmyheart
May 8th 2007, 07:35 PM
Righton,

yes actually that was me....hehe i did post that. I guess i overlooked the quotation marks in your post.

Blame it on the fact that my mind is occupied with a load that i have on my plate right now....

teshuva
May 8th 2007, 09:12 PM
WWJD

What would Jesus do? If we open up the scriptures we see and read what Jesus did. This is the standard of everyone on this board, I'm sure.

But, wait a minute, aren't we supposed to stay away from doing good deeds? No one here would say that.

This is all we're saying, is to use Jesus as our role model. To do what He did. Not to glorify ourselves but our Father in heaven. To fight our flesh and do what He says, "Go and sin no more." This is not an easy fight. His Word has to be in our hearts at all times. But when we do sin, inevitably, we have an intercessor before GOD, the best lawyer in the universe.

Repentance does come into play, though. Can we continue in sin? When we confess to the LORD, 'Forgive me Lord, I won't do that anymore', dont we use all within us to fight our flesh? Don't we DO what Jesus did? Don't unsaved people call us hypocrites when we speak about Him and then sin openly? Even the world knows we should not steal, lie, cheat, commit adultery, gossip, etc., etc.
He was a lawkeeper. He wrote the law and showed us His perfect way of keeping it. It's His revealed character and what we should strive for in order for others to see our changed lives, different from the world around us.

Salvation is a free gift, by grace thru faith, period.

If we love our neighbor as ourselves, it's imitation of Christ's walk. If we love God with all our heart, soul and mind, that's imitation of Christ's walk. If we love our enemies, that's imitation of Christ's walk. It doesn't earn us salvation, it shows our devotion to Him.
His walk was sinless. He knows we're dust. We're weak. But He shows us the right way, the perfect way, the way we should act, by denying our flesh and following Him - not the world.

Bandit
May 8th 2007, 11:22 PM
I`m sure you are familiar with the scripture.
...
What law is Paul referring too in Romans 2:13?
Certianly not the OT law, unless this apostle would contradict himself all over the place, as you preachers of the law would have him do.
...



Hello all,

I have often wondered how different people understand much of the second chapter of Romans. It has always been my opinion that this chapter has been bypassed too quickly. I am also of the opinion that this chapter is fundamentally important to a proper understanding of the whole book of Romans.

Not to put anyone on the spot, but contrary to Faithwalker’s comment, I believe that context clearly indicates that Paul does have the OT law in view in Romans 2:13 (for example, see verse 14). Now I don’t know what people will (or would) do with this little tidbit of information, but it seems to me that there is much in Romans 2 which needs to be carefully reexamined. What I believe many have done is to interpret the book of Romans apart from the second chapter, and then they’ve gone back and tried to force Romans 2 to fit that interpretation. This, I believe, is why many people say things like the above comment. They have already decided what Romans 2 cannot be saying, or at least they are afraid to let it say certain things which seem contrary to what they think they see elsewhere.

Anyway, I just wanted to throw my two-cents-worth in.

Bandit

cwb
May 8th 2007, 11:46 PM
Hello all,

I have often wondered how different people understand much of the second chapter of Romans. It has always been my opinion that this chapter has been bypassed too quickly. I am also of the opinion that this chapter is fundamentally important to a proper understanding of the whole book of Romans.

Not to put anyone on the spot, but contrary to Faithwalker’s comment, I believe that context clearly indicates that Paul does have the OT law in view in Romans 2:13 (for example, see verse 14). Now I don’t know what people will (or would) do with this little tidbit of information, but it seems to me that there is much in Romans 2 which needs to be carefully reexamined. What I believe many have done is to interpret the book of Romans apart from the second chapter, and then they’ve gone back and tried to force Romans 2 to fit that interpretation. This, I believe, is why many people say things like the above comment. They have already decided what Romans 2 cannot be saying, or at least they are afraid to let it say certain things which seem contrary to what they think they see elsewhere.

Anyway, I just wanted to throw my two-cents-worth in.

Bandit

Still, Jesus Chirst is the only one who can fall into the category of being a doer of the law. Everybody else falls short. that is why we needed Him to die for us. Nobody is justified by OT law. because no man has been able to keep it other than Jesus Christ.

Bandit
May 9th 2007, 12:42 AM
Still, Jesus Chirst is the only one who can fall into the category of being a doer of the law. Everybody else falls short...


Hello cwb,

If you read Romans 2:13 through the first half of verse 15, you should realize that Paul is saying that there really are Gentiles who are doers of the law. Now exactly how we are to understand such a statement may be open to debate, but this text does say what it says (whatever that may mean). Now we can discuss what it may mean, but we should not doubt that Paul says such a thing. So rather than whitewash such a passage, I would prefer to try to understand it. So to me, the first step is to acknowledge what is stated; the next step is to try to understand what it could mean. I believe I know what Paul has stated here, and I believe I understand what he means (or at least I have an opinion). But I would like to hear what others have to say. I simply haven't come across much serious discussion of Romans 2.

Bandit

Jesusinmyheart
May 9th 2007, 02:27 AM
Still, Jesus Chirst is the only one who can fall into the category of being a doer of the law. Everybody else falls short. that is why we needed Him to die for us. Nobody is justified by OT law. because no man has been able to keep it other than Jesus Christ.

This is exactly why He died for us, cause we cannot be perfect doers of the Law. But, what happens to one that doesn't even try to obey and just does what he/she wants ?
Doesn't any parent lay down rules and give instructions on how children are to act, and do things ?

No child can be perfect, hence the need for grace, and that perfect atonement. But a child who does not even try to obey is truly wicked.

cwb
May 9th 2007, 02:40 AM
Hello cwb,

If you read Romans 2:13 through the first half of verse 15, you should realize that Paul is saying that there really are Gentiles who are doers of the law. Now exactly how we are to understand such a statement may be open to debate, but this text does say what it says (whatever that may mean). Now we can discuss what it may mean, but we should not doubt that Paul says such a thing. So rather than whitewash such a passage, I would prefer to try to understand it. So to me, the first step is to acknowledge what is stated; the next step is to try to understand what it could mean. I believe I know what Paul has stated here, and I believe I understand what he means (or at least I have an opinion). But I would like to hear what others have to say. I simply haven't come across much serious discussion of Romans 2.

Bandit

Bandit,

I would love to have a serious discussion with you on Romans 2. However it seems to be inconsistent to be saying that that you want a serious discussion and at the same time saying somebody is trying to "whitewash" passages of scripture.

cwb
May 9th 2007, 02:48 AM
This is exactly why He died for us, cause we cannot be perfect doers of the Law. But, what happens to one that doesn't even try to obey and just does what he/she wants ?
Doesn't any parent lay down rules and give instructions on how children are to act, and do things ?

No child can be perfect, hence the need for grace, and that perfect atonement. But a child who does not even try to obey is truly wicked.

Just so I am clear on your stance, what laws are you saying God want us to obey today. Are you saying as Christian we have to be circumcised if we are male. Do we have to do animal sacrifices? Are we sinning if we go to church on Sunday rather than Saturday.

Jesusinmyheart
May 9th 2007, 03:39 AM
cwb,
Look in the OT, and first realize that the Law God Gave to Moses was given not just to Israelites, but that a "mixed multitude" was also with them:

Exo 12:38 A mixed multitude also went up with them, and very much livestock, both flocks and herds.

Also God clearly said that there's to be thew same law for the stranger, as there is for the native:
Exo 12:49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you."

Now from that i would jump to the most obvious the 10 commandments, and for further clarification on understanding these, i would study the other 603

Read this:
A non-Jew came to Shammai and asked the rabbi to teach him the whole Torah while standing on one foot. Shammai, angry at the man's impudence, chased him away with a builder's cubit. The man then went to Hillel and asked the same question. Hillel replied, "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour. This is the whole Torah; all the rest is 'commentary'. Go and learn it."
[the word "Torah" can mean Jewish teaching as a whole or its primary source, the first five books of the Hebrew Bible (Genesis through Deuteronomy) ]

Go and learn it....the Bible has every instruction we would ever need in it, so it's wise to learn.
For clarification please check out this article:http://www.scarboromissions.ca/Interfaith_dialogue/commentaries_main.php
Disclaimer, i do not know if i would agree with everything on this site, but i do agree with this article.

Now, then you have the feasts which are God's appointed times, that He commands us to observe as a statue 'forever' or 'perpetually'.

Exo 12:14 "This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast.
This is about passover

Exo 12:17 And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever.
Feast of unleavened bread.

Exo 31:13 "You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.
......
Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.

etc.... there are more feasts that are God's appointed times, that i started to observe.

Here's another example:
God made this a perpetual covenant sign, and we still look at it today : the Rainbow

Gen 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:

likewise:

Lev 3:17 It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood.


There's more this is just a brief rundown.

Jesusinmyheart
May 9th 2007, 03:46 AM
To answer your question on circumcision, i honestly am on the fence on that one.
To answer you on going to church, no i do not think you're sinning for going on Sunday, but i do believe you are wrong for not observing the Sabbath.

It's the 4th commandment out of the 10 commandments, and i do not for the life of me understand why people think that one has been done away with. God does not change. If He says forever or perpetual, then it will not change.

Colossians 3:17
May 9th 2007, 04:42 AM
Thank you, Jdu. I was hoping I'd get some input on it.

I was thinking someone might challenge me about the part about peering into this relative's soul and finding it a bit lacking. I thought maybe someone would consider that judging [or maybe some thought that, just nobody said anything]. Well, it is judging. But we who are in Christ are supposed to judge each other. We are to judge our fellow Christians to the extent that we can tell whether each is a true child of God or an imposter. It is my belief that this member is a hypocrite, in full.

Yes, we all are like this to a certain extent, but the hypocrite is the one who has built a wall of rebellion against The LORD. He does not utter true prayers. He does not grow. He remains a child in The LORD, and puts on a good show. But inside he is a ravenous tiger. Petty jealousies are his forte.

We all grow and fall back in our own ways. But I was describing what Jesus referred to as "the fate of the hypocrites". When the only true thing that can be said about you is that you are a hypocrite, a phony through-and-through who does not even know the Christ you claim to. These are worse in God's eyes than a mass murderer. The deepest darkness awaits them. For they are imposters, and they make a mockery of The LORD.

Ezekiel 13
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who are now prophesying. Say to those who prophesy out of their own imagination: 'Hear the word of the LORD! 3 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the foolish [a] prophets who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing! 4 Your prophets, O Israel, are like jackals among ruins. 5 You have not gone up to the breaks in the wall to repair it for the house of Israel so that it will stand firm in the battle on the day of the LORD. 6 Their visions are false and their divinations a lie. They say, "The LORD declares," when the LORD has not sent them; yet they expect their words to be fulfilled. 7 Have you not seen false visions and uttered lying divinations when you say, "The LORD declares," though I have not spoken?
8 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because of your false words and lying visions, I am against you, declares the Sovereign LORD. 9 My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.

10 " 'Because they lead my people astray, saying, "Peace," when there is no peace, and because, when a flimsy wall is built, they cover it with whitewash, 11 therefore tell those who cover it with whitewash that it is going to fall. Rain will come in torrents, and I will send hailstones hurtling down, and violent winds will burst forth. 12 When the wall collapses, will people not ask you, "Where is the whitewash you covered it with?"

13 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: In my wrath I will unleash a violent wind, and in my anger hailstones and torrents of rain will fall with destructive fury. 14 I will tear down the wall you have covered with whitewash and will level it to the ground so that its foundation will be laid bare. When it [b] falls, you will be destroyed in it; and you will know that I am the LORD. 15 So I will spend my wrath against the wall and against those who covered it with whitewash. I will say to you, "The wall is gone and so are those who whitewashed it, 16 those prophets of Israel who prophesied to Jerusalem and saw visions of peace for her when there was no peace, declares the Sovereign LORD." '

This wall is what I was alluding to when I referenced "the hypocrite's bubble". The NIV is a little harder to follow than some, but the false prophets are not the ones who contructed this figurative wall. The wall was built [a psychological wall... of one's own mind] by rebellious people, and the false prophets come along and put whitewash on it, saying that all is well when all is NOT well! That is what I was alluding to.

The hypocrite, IOW, does not really know how to pray. He only mimics true prayer. His entire life is built on deception and lies.

I hope you find this helpful, Jdu. Let me know if you want me to elaborate further.

Edited to add: I'd say a hypocrite of this magnitude would not even be on this website, unless maybe to stir up trouble. A hypocrite I describe here wants growth as a no resort. Growing is the LAST thing a hypocrite wants to do.

Your posts are very insightful Righton...I guess it just scares me a little bit to see you talk to condemningly of "hypocrites" when we really all (Christian or not) are hypocrites to some degree...

I just became a Christian last November, and I trip up every now and then in sin, knowing that it is wrong (Paul describes how he does this same thing in Romans, I believe). Even so, I always ask for forgiveness and try to make it a point to move on.

I KNOW that Jesus is the most important thing in life, but I don't always LIVE that way...One of my biggest problems that I am really trying to work on...I sometimes have the attitude that I have "Better things to do" than get into the word or spread the gospel, and it's something I am praying God will change.

Sorry, I got way off topic, hahah.

I see how you differentiate between the average Christians (who is definitely a hypocrite since we all sin) and those who are just using Christianity in their best interest...But I think that the latter group of people KNOWS that they are not Christians and are just trying to manipulate those around them...I don't think they believe they are real true Christians at all.

Colossians 3:17
May 9th 2007, 04:44 AM
To answer your question on circumcision, i honestly am on the fence on that one.
To answer you on going to church, no i do not think you're sinning for going on Sunday, but i do believe you are wrong for not observing the Sabbath.

It's the 4th commandment out of the 10 commandments, and i do not for the life of me understand why people think that one has been done away with. God does not change. If He says forever or perpetual, then it will not change.


Jesusinmyheart...I just got done reading in Romans (Ch. 7, I believe) where Paul talks about how we are RELEASED from the law...We are no longer bound to this law.

"There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus"...Romans 8:1

cwb
May 9th 2007, 04:52 AM
To answer your question on circumcision, i honestly am on the fence on that one.
To answer you on going to church, no i do not think you're sinning for going on Sunday, but i do believe you are wrong for not observing the Sabbath.

It's the 4th commandment out of the 10 commandments, and i do not for the life of me understand why people think that one has been done away with. God does not change. If He says forever or perpetual, then it will not change.

I am just trying to understand where you are coming from. Are you saying (and I could quote many other verses like this) that the following verse is not valid

Romans 10:4
For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Also I am just curious, Are you saying that Chirstians are sinning if they eat pork or crabmeat. The scriptures seem to contradict you. There just seems to me that there are so many scriptures that tell us that we are no longer under the law.

Faithwalker
May 9th 2007, 10:56 AM
Faithwalker:

What you don't understand, is that we uphold the Law, and yet live by Faith.

Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

In your eyes i'm a "lawkeeper" in God's eye i'm an obedient child, and he knows my heart and my desire to walk in His instructions.
I never claimed that this obedience will earn me salvation, cause it cannot be earned, it's a FREE gift.
What obedience will earn me however is Joy and peace, and blessings.

Those that seek truth will find it.
I pray that many will be blessed with eyes that can see.

Since we know the scripture was not written in chapter and verse format,
your taking a few lines from a letter here, and a few lines from a letter there to justify trying to keep the law, only shows once again you need to stand back and take in the whole picture, else you cause Paul to sound as foolish and confused as he called the Galations...

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Context context context...read the whole letter of Romans you refer too...

How about the preceding writ...
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith....
or going on to the next page of the letter...
4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect...

Doesnt that throw new light on the two lines you quoted out of context?

For real understanding, lets take a read of a portion of one of the letters written to the church in Acts:

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them,

"Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying,

"Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and fornication, and things strangled, and blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."

Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner;

"The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

Now the writer of Acts says what? That "you who teach men must keep the law, are tempting God...and subverting souls" Thats the inspired word of God, not my own. Tempting God does not equate with obedience, not in hebrew, greek, modern day english, or any other spoken or written language. Now do with the Word of God what you will, but you who are trying to keep the law need to stop trying to subvert souls who worship God in Spirit and truth, back to worshipping Him in flesh and truth (which is not the truth at all)

1Co 4:15 You may have 10,000 teachers in Christ, but not many fathers. For in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. So I urge you to become imitators of me. - Paul

jiggyfly
May 9th 2007, 03:54 PM
Excellent post Faithwalker, Thank you for taking the time to post this. I hope that this gives everyone food for thought and challenges them to rethink and align their mind set with the new covenant and to God.

Jesusinmyheart
May 9th 2007, 06:00 PM
To address all of you jdu00743, cwb, and FaithWalker, i will start a new thread, and i will allll be in context cause it will likely derail this topic.

I will post back here with a link to it, once it's done.

In the meantime i'd like for all three of you to research about very early christianity going backwards from this time:

At the time Christianity was still a minor sect of Judaism, and most historians believe that it was this messianic claim in favor of Bar Kokhba that alienated many Christians (including Jewish Christians), who believed that the true messiah was Jesus, and sharply deepened the schism between Jews and (Jewish emphasis mine) Christians.

Here's a link to another post for you to mull over before i get to that new thread :

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1254770&postcount=9

I mean really, think about that statement here: Christianity was still a minor sect of Judaism It's truel cause the first believers Jews and Gentiles alike did everything the Jews did, the only thing they didn't do, was to practise and adhere to the little fence laws, which were instituted by the Pharisees and sadducees to keep people from actually transgressing the Torah.

Once you can wrap your mind around that, you will begin to understand what difference it makes in reading all those passages.

fellowservant
May 9th 2007, 07:33 PM
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

This isnt a little fence law, this is the law of Moses, Paul and Peter said no this is not for the Gentile. If the Jew wants to follow Torah let him, but he is subverting the true gospel of Christ. As for circumcision Paul says i wish that they who want to glory in your flesh were even cut off (Ie the penis)

This is how strong Paul felt toward these teachings. So if there are babes in Christ here reading any of this, dont listen to the subverters, but listen to Paul. The law is written on the heart, not on tables of stone anymore. The spirit gives life, but the letter kills.

God bless

Faithwalker
May 9th 2007, 10:38 PM
Jesusinmyheart you came back with the very response I expected, at least you remain true to the form of a Judaiser. You are glad to be given what you see as another opportunity to draw the readers back to the classroom of your school master.

I must say that your assumption that anyone who disagrees with you simply does not know enough about early christianity, or they`d be able to wrap their minds around what you teach, tho mildly amusing, could`nt be more wrong. I also gladly welcome the opportunity to further proclaim the law of faith as preached by Paul, as he, being advanced in Judaism beyond the majority of his peers, (even moreso than you all here I suspect) yet after His conversion to Christ, openly rejected and denounced what you attempting to teach.

Gal 2:19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. I no longer live, but Christ lives in me, and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.


That being said...

I see your school master, and without batting an eye, I`ll raise you the new covenant and the cross of Jesus Christ.

Jesusinmyheart
May 9th 2007, 10:48 PM
Heh Faithwalker,

You forget that Yeshua IS my schoolmaster.

The very verse you posted is reminder and testimony to those that either obey God or don't.

Gal 2:19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. I no longer live, but Christ lives in me, and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.

Read this carefully: For through the Law i died to the Law, so that i might live for God.... I have been crucified with Christ if i subject my flesh to the commands of God. This is how Yeshua now lives in me for He is the Word, the Law, and the perfect example of the way to life...... i do not set aside Grace, becuase if righteousness came through the Law, then Yeshua would have died in vain.

One really needs to read scripture with a discerning eye.

It amuses me that you think i'm on the wrong path, and it also saddens me that you call me a judaizer, cause that is not what i am. I am a follower of Messiah, and hence i'm a "Messianic" which is the same thing as "Christian"

I walk by Faith !

Faithwalker
May 9th 2007, 11:34 PM
Now, then you have the feasts which are God's appointed times, that He commands us to observe as a statue 'forever' or 'perpetually'.


In regards to this earlier statement made by jesusinmyheart.. Having studied hermeneutics (law of interpreting scripture) and such, and knowing the importance of this law is so great that Jews also had come up with such laws in their studies, I have this to say. What you fail to realize here is how God is not talking to just anyone. The context of AUDIENCE is those that sojourned in the land of Israel, in other words a Jew or a jewish convert. God told THEM to observe these commands and anyone who wanted to live in the Holy Land. However, there is a completely different audience now when Jesus arrives on the scene and a NEW COVENANT to be proclaimed by all of those that followed Jesus' teachings.

In the Old Covenant the people performed a different ceremony than what we would do today to be apart of the New Covenant. Look at this:

Exo 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant (Moses), and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
Exo 24:8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled [it] on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant (old), which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

Have you had blood sprinkled on you for this covenant to keep? If you have not had this physical blood sprinkled on you than I would assume you are not apart of this covenant. And even if you are a Jew this doesn't automatically make you apart of this old covenant with God either, since Paul says:

Rom 2:25 For circumcision is valuable if you observe the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 So if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the requirements of the law, his uncircumcision will be regarded as circumcision, won't it? (this cant be talking about ceremonial law obviously, or we would need be circumcised right? - the requirement here is the Law of Faith which was promised to Abraham long before Moses came along)
Rom 2:27 The man who is uncircumcised physically but who keeps the law will condemn you who break the law, even though you have the written law (not the Law of the Spirit) and circumcision.
Rom 2:28 For a person is not a Jew because of his appearance, nor is circumcision something external and physical.
Rom 2:29 No, a person is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by a written law. That person's praise will come from God, not from people.


The New Covenant is along these lines:

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. (in other words you live if you perform well - old covenant)
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit (NEW COVENANT) through faith.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though [it be]but a man's covenant, yet [if it be] confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant (the one made before Moses covenant with God), that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made ( JESUS CHRIST ); [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (The seed of the woman has already come and stepped on the head of the serpent's seed) So what serveth the law now?? It says "til" meaning that Jesus "fulfilled the law" (or) "COMPLETED the law")
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

IF what you say is true here (that we need to keep these feasts and what not) then why is there such a discrepancy between what you teach and with the teachings of Paul who was SPECIFICALLY appointed to bring the good news to the GENTILES? If you dont agree then please examine:

Col 2:8 See to it that no one enslaves you through philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of God lives in bodily form.
Col 2:10 And you have been brought to fullness in him, who is the head of every ruler and authority.
Col 2:11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without human hands by stripping off the corrupt nature in the circumcision performed by Christ.
Col 2:12 When you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 Even when you were dead because of your offenses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with him when he forgave us all of our offenses,
Col 2:14 having erased the charges that were brought against us with their decrees that were hostile to us. He took those charges away when he nailed them to the cross.
Col 2:15 And when he had disarmed the rulers and the authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in the cross.
Col 2:16 Therefore, let no one judge you in matters of food and drink or with respect to a festival, a new moon, or a Sabbath day. (This clearly implies we are not commanded to keep the feasts or whatever (in KJV it uses "holydays" for festival but is indicative of any feast or celebration.. we can partake in these if we want clearly.. but we are NOT commanded to.. in fact we're not supposed to let anyone judge us in these things so as to weaken our conscious)
Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to Christ.
Col 2:18 Let no one who delights in humility and the worship of angels cheat you out of the prize by boasting about what he has seen. Such a person is puffed up without cause by his carnal mind.
Col 2:19 He does not hold on to the head, from whom the whole body, which is nourished and held together by its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that comes from God.
Col 2:20 If you have died with Christ to the basic principles of the world, why are you submitting to its decrees as though you still lived in the world?
Col 2:21 "Don't handle this! Don't taste or touch that!"
Col 2:22 All of these things will be destroyed through use because they are based on human commands and teachings.
Col 2:23 These things have the appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion, humility, and harsh treatment of the body, but they have no value against self-indulgence.

So, in my humble opinion you and Paul really dont agree. And since he was the Jew chosen to preach to the Gentiles about Christ.. I'm going to listen to him. See any blinding lights lately? :)

Jesusinmyheart
May 10th 2007, 01:15 AM
Faithwalker,

I think Paul would never become a law breaker for sin is the transgression of the Law: 1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And with that i'll bow out of this thread, cause i have seen a brightly shining star that many refuse to see...

HalleluYAH
May 10th 2007, 06:48 PM
Hello Saved7:)

The word iniquity in the Greek is anomia which means:


1) the condition of without law
a) because ignorant of it
b) because of violating it 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

AV (http://www.blueletterbible.org/help/av.html) - iniquity (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?show_strongs=yes&word=iniquity*+458) 12, unrighteousness (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?show_strongs=yes&word=unrighteousness*+458) 1, transgress the law (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?show_strongs=yes&word=transgress*+the*+law*+458+4160) + 4160 1,
transgression of law (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?show_strongs=yes&word=transgression*+of*+law*+*+458)1; 15


Imo, He's talking about those who transgress the Torah/Law/Instruction willingly and choose not to obey it. :( :)
The works of 'anomia' i.e. 'lawlessness' should not be confused with inadherance to Mosaic Law...

"39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. " ~ Matthew 22

It is possible to abuse HIS name, and power to serve one's self and not one's neighbor... thus, being a worker of lawlessness. The Mosaic Law was designed to show us our need for grace, and we who accept Christ understand this, and our works to serve HIM and our Neighbors demonstrate this. If we work to serve ourselves ONLY, we show that the Love of Father is NOT in us and we are decieved to believe our works for Christ have value...

It is possible to abuse HIS name, and power to serve one's self and not one's neighbor... thus, being a worker of lawlessness.


"1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. 7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. " ~ John 10

In other words, there are many spiritual terrorists in the Church today... those who have a true relationship with the Father know it... and, many are decived into believing they have on by their own works and not by grace... how sad this is... :(

"
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! 24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. " ~ Matthew 6

Faithwalker
May 10th 2007, 10:38 PM
Jesusinmyheart, by all means bow out of this conversation but let me say this in response to your last word if i may. You said that Paul would never be a law breaker because sin is the transgression of the law. But what law are you refering to? The Law John was talking about was the Law of Faith and Love respectively. Here's the proof:

You quoted from this passage of John's writing:

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Fair enough but what is law? Law is simply put, a command given to be followed when a covenant is made to do so... but if you read on in this same chapter look at what John has to say:

1Jo 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God.
1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another (FAITH AND LOVE), as he gave us commandment.
1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Is this not the law that Christ gave us? It would appear so:

Mat 22:35 Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,
Mat 22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

And again Jesus has this law to give:


Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.



John also has more to say about this Law of Faith and Love:

2Jo 1:4I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
2Jo 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. (faith and love to others)
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. (faith and love to God) This is the commandment (singular), That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

It is clear to me that the Law that was given in the NEW COVENANT is the Law of Faith and Love. The 10 Commandments hang on this law, but ceremonial laws and feasts, and traditions have nothing to do with keeping the command to Love. IF the children of Israel could not bare the curse of the written law, which God full well intended, then why should we now if the sins and transgressions have been nailed to the tree and we're now free to walk in the Spirit without performing sacrifices and feasts??

I leave you with this last passage:

Gal 3:21[Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

So with that I bow gracefully to you as well. I'm glad we could have this discussion. Let your light shine ;)

Peace.

:)

Saved7
May 10th 2007, 10:48 PM
To answer your question on circumcision, i honestly am on the fence on that one.
To answer you on going to church, no i do not think you're sinning for going on Sunday, but i do believe you are wrong for not observing the Sabbath.

It's the 4th commandment out of the 10 commandments, and i do not for the life of me understand why people think that one has been done away with. God does not change. If He says forever or perpetual, then it will not change.

But aren't we who are in Christ already "keeping the Sabbath REST". As we rest from our works. This is what I have always taken the sabbath to be, aside from the "Sabbath" of the 7th Day of the Lord, or shall I say the 7 thousandth year, the millenial reign.:saint:

diffangle
May 11th 2007, 01:57 AM
Is this not the law that Christ gave us? It would appear so:

Mat 22:35 Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,
Mat 22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.



It's the same Law YHWH gave Moses at Sinai.

The most important Commandment Yahushua spoke of....

And now, Israel, what doth YHWH thy God require of thee, but to fear YHWH thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve YHWH thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, -Duet. 10:12

How does He want to be loved?

Therefore thou shalt love YHWH thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and His commandments, alway. -Duet. 11:1

Always :hmm:

And thou shalt love YHWH thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. -Duet. 6:5

For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love YHWH your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto Him; -Duet. 11:22

The second Command...

Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] YHWH.
-Lev. 19:18

the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and [B]thou shalt love him as thyself; -Lev. 19:34

Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. -Duet. 10:19



And again Jesus has this law to give:

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.


John 13:34 is better rendered as renewed Commandment... as you can see from the verses I posted above that the Commandment to love your neighbor/others was not new.

What did Yahushua mean when He said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy... For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."?

Souled Out
May 11th 2007, 02:48 AM
What did Yahushua mean when He said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy... For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."?
He said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Do you think He succeeded?

diffangle
May 11th 2007, 02:58 AM
He said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Do you think He succeeded?


He said nothing will pass from the Law till ALL is fulfilled. Did Yahushua fulfill the entire Law and Prophets or the parts that spoke of Him? :hmm:

Souled Out
May 11th 2007, 03:13 AM
He said nothing will pass from the Law till ALL is fulfilled. Did Yahushua fulfill the entire Law and Prophets or the parts that spoke of Him? :hmm:

He fulfilled and finished it all on the cross as all of it, every word, jot, tittle, comma, animal sacrifice, shadow, dream, prophecy, all pointed to Him. His coming and dying on the cross was the fulfillment of ALL those things.

He's done so much already. What else is there left for Him to fulfill?

diffangle
May 11th 2007, 03:52 AM
He said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."






What else is there left for Him to fulfill?


Have heaven and earth passed away yet?

Souled Out
May 11th 2007, 04:28 AM
Have heaven and earth passed away yet?

No. It remains to reveal sin and to bring people to Christ.

People still need to be made aware of sin and there are still people who have yet to come to Christ. God will not leave us without the tutor as long as sin and unbelievers exist. So for those reasons, the law remains.

That's why Christ said He didn't come to abolish but to fulfill. We either put faith in His fulfilling of it or we put faith in our own attemtps.

When it comes to the law and it's fulfillment, I point to Christ's perfect work on the cross.

In me He demonstrates my faith in that fulfillment with love. That's how the law is fulfilled and why all the law hangs on the Two love commmandments.

We either follow the law (law unfulfilled) or we follow the Spirit (law fulfilled). You can't follow the Spirit while staring at stone. That's why the law was not made for a righteous man.

Braves27
May 11th 2007, 06:10 AM
....I could stand here and lay down a ton of scriptures, old testament and new, that yall probably have seen before, showing that we are to keep GOD's laws and commandments. Other people in this thread are doing it, and not changing anyones mind. Instead, I just want to ask this:
WHY are Christians all over arguing and striving over this?

1 John 5
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
...meaning the law of GOD is not supposed to be a burden to us!!! The LORD gave us His commandments to show us how to walk after His ways. Why is it so hard for some of you to follow them??? Why isn't is a joy to keep the commandments of GOD?

cwb
May 11th 2007, 06:43 AM
....I could stand here and lay down a ton of scriptures, old testament and new, that yall probably have seen before, showing that we are to keep GOD's laws and commandments. Other people in this thread are doing it, and not changing anyones mind. Instead, I just want to ask this:
WHY are Christians all over arguing and striving over this?

1 John 5

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
...meaning the law of GOD is not supposed to be a burden to us!!! The LORD gave us His commandments to show us how to walk after His ways. Why is it so hard for some of you to follow them??? Why isn't is a joy to keep the commandments of GOD?


Are you saying old testament law is God's commandment to us today?

Braves27
May 11th 2007, 06:51 AM
Absolutely.

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


We aren't justified by the law, or saved by it. Only by the grace of GOD. That doesn't mean we're not supposed to still follow it, though.

Faithwalker
May 11th 2007, 12:35 PM
....I could stand here and lay down a ton of scriptures, old testament and new, that yall probably have seen before, showing that we are to keep GOD's laws and commandments. Other people in this thread are doing it, and not changing anyones mind. Instead, I just want to ask this:
WHY are Christians all over arguing and striving over this?

The OLD Testament does not include "we" Please take the time to read "context of audience" above, it may help you understand this. The scripture is written simply enough for even the babes to understand what Gods NEW Testament laws and commands are: 1Co 13:13 Right now three things remain: faith, hope, and love.

Its the same old story we read about in the Scripture. When God chose to build Himself a spiritual house not made with hands, the people cried NOOOOOOO! Let us keep our earthly temples, let us glory in the ark of the covenant, and let your laws be the cornerstone! It has always been ours, we have deed and title too it, and we will not share it with those lawless gentiles, and we will not let you take it away!

The good news is, God, being God, didnt let all mans protesting, keep Him from abandoning the old house, and building the new. [GLORY TO GOD!] The temple is gone, along with the ark and the old covenant that only served to show the ones who held the old title how exceedingly incapable of keeping His laws of holiness that they were. He said I will write a new deed to my new house, to include the names of whosoever is willing to be born of the Spirit, and will SEAL it with the blood of my own Son. [signed as an everlasting covenant]
When it was finished, God said, the door too, and the foundation, (none other can be laid) and the cornerstone (there can only be one) of my spiritual house, the ecclesia, is now Jesus Christ, and those who desire to enter and find rest, can only do so by my Holy Spirit, and nothing of flesh shall enter there! Those of you who desire to make a fair show in the flesh please read again!
You have been bid to a feast, and if you dont come clothed in Christs righeousness alone, you will be cast out!

Rom 3:20 Therefore, no human being will be justified (cant find favor with, nor please, nor even find mercy) in God's sight by means of the works prescribed by the law.
Romans 13:14 - Clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ
Gal 3:27 All of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment; And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness;

Rev 21:27 Only those whose names are written in the lamb's Book of Life will enter it.[Gods spiritual house]


1Pe 2:4 As you come to him, the living stone who was rejected by people but was chosen and precious in God's sight, you, too, as living stones, are building yourselves up into a spiritual house and a holy priesthood, so that you may offer spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

This is why it says in Scripture: "Look! I am laying a chosen and precious cornerstone in Zion. The one who believes [law of faith] in him will never be ashamed."

Therefore he is precious to you who believe, [law of faith] but to those who do not believe, "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone, a stone they stumble over and a rock they trip on." They keep on stumbling because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people to be his very own and to proclaim the wonderful deeds of the one who called you out of darkness [theres no lights on in ye` old house] into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God. Once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


Heb 9:15 And for this cause Jesus is the mediator [reconciler] of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet [B]now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Jesus said again and again and again, you MUST be born of the Spirit to enter His Kingdom! The flesh aint going to cut it folks, no matter how hard you try (and some of you are trying real hard) I would like to give you credit for that, but God does not.

Jesusinmyheart
May 11th 2007, 04:35 PM
Faithwalker,

you can be sure i'll let my light shine. ;)

Please quit thinking we are lost, cause we are not. God will give us a ton of credit for walking His ways, however, and having Faith that He will forgive us where we fall short.

Why is it that you cannot understand that the two greatest Commandments are a summary of all others ? Does this render all others null and void ?

I have studied the bible with God's leading, cause i got tired of seeing the church and what they taught, yet not producing any fruit. I went from church to church, to find my spiritual home, and i could not find it. So i went and asked God to show me truth, and He did!!! Hallelujah!!! Praise be to Him, cause no man can take credit for having taught me the truth.

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

This was directed towards the Pharisees back in Yeshuas time. I can tell you, that while Yeshua disagreed with their man made statues, He still agreed with them on the following of the Law, hence He said here:

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;
Do what ? Follow the Law!!!
but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Why would Yeshua say this?
This had to do with their pridefull appearance acting holier than thou. Wanting to be recognized for that holiness.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
What are the heavy burdens?

It's The Pharisees little "fence laws" they had erected to keep everyone 50 ft from even the posibillity of transgression of the Law, that they themselves did not observe, cause they considered themselves immune to transgression of the Law.

We are to fall on the stone and be broken, to have a broken and contrite spirit, this is how we do today's sacrifices, and these same God accepted even in OT times.

But woe to those on whom the stone falls, he will be ground into powder. Those are the people, who like the Pharisees teach false doctrine.

The sacrifices we make today are when we pick up our cross and deny our flesh and bring it into subjection to God's will. How do we know God's will ?
Look at the Law, and you know it.
This is why we follow the Law, cause we love Him Who loved us first.

This is what it means to love God with all your heart, mind, strenght and soul.

Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."

1Jn 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

This is what it means to be emulaters of Christ.

We are not in bondage to sin, or under the Law, by following it, cause Yeshua has died for us, and His blood washes us clean. We have been set free to walk like Him.

This is what it means to have Faith in Him, that if we follow/emulate Him, we will not be condemned even though we fall short.

You're obviously asking me/us to check our faith, and see if i/we are wrong, but you have not yet really opened your mind and eyes to see if we could possibly be right.
Would it hurt you to take a second look ?
Those little "contradictions about the Law" will never begin to make sense to you, unless you deny those scriptures that do not fit. OR, you open your mind, and ask God for complete truth as i had done.

I went straight to the Word and asked for answers. Do you really think the Word could possibly lead me astray ? Will God when i ask for Truth give me a snake instead ?
I had NO agenda when i asked God for Truth, i wanted to know Truth, and nothing but the Truth. And that is what i've been given.
I did not go to church, but completely searched the scriptures, dilligently searched nothing but the Word. When i emerged with the truth, i then learned what "denomination" i belonged to.

Mat 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

I have come from the belief you espouse, i've been told and taught the same by men for many, many years. The more i read my bible, and went to church, the more i started to know in my heart that there was only parts of truth being taught. That's when i decided to set everything aside, and look to God only, and He has richly rewarded me, i've been born again. I now know the truth, and I can start over knowing the right way.

Disclaimer: i am in no wise trying to infer you're not reading the bible... it's obvious you do.
All of this posted above is strictly my opinion based on what i believe is truth, and i do not expect anyone to agree with it.

Saved7
May 11th 2007, 04:52 PM
wow, I didn't realize that this post would stir up so much thought in so many. I am pleased with the results so far.
Carry on.:D

Saved7
May 11th 2007, 04:58 PM
Yes, He is saying "depart from Me you who practice Torahlessness/Lawlessness".



Yes those sum up the 10 Commandments. By obeying the 10 Commandments then you are loving YHWH with all your heart and soul and strength and by obeying the 10 Commandments you will also love your neighbor.




Jesus said, "If you love me you will obey my commandments." And those commmandments were love. If we love Him, we will by nature obey. It isn't the other way around, we aren't supposed to prove our love by trying to obey, though that doesn't mean we are supposed to not obey. But rather it should be out of love for Him and a desire to please Him that we NATURALLY obey. But pride doesn't allow us to love as we are commaned to love, pride gets in our way of true fellowship, and true obedience. However, we will not be able to be perfect, and we have to remember that.
But ultimately, I believe it was the "prideful" that Jesus was talking to, because our pride keeps us from truely bowing the knee.:saint:

I suppose it would have been much easier if I had put this in there from the get go, but I wanted to give others something to think about.
Though I suppose you will still disagree with me along with many others.
That's ok.:)

diffangle
May 11th 2007, 05:05 PM
I went straight to the Word and asked for answers. Do you really think the Word could possibly lead me astray ? Will God when i ask for Truth give me a snake instead ?
I had NO agenda when i asked God for Truth, i wanted to know Truth, and nothing but the Truth. And that is what i've been given.
I did not go to church, but completely searched the scriptures, dilligently searched nothing but the Word. When i emerged with the truth, i then learned what "denomination" i belonged to.

Mat 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

I have come from the belief you espouse, i've been told and taught the same by men for many, many years. The more i read my bible, and went to church, the more i started to know in my heart that there was only parts of truth being taught. That's when i decided to set everything aside, and look to God only, and He has richly rewarded me, i've been born again. I now know the truth, and I can start over knowing the right way.


I've experienced a parallel experience too in my walk. :pp HalleluYah!



wow, I didn't realize that this post would stir up so much thought in so many. I am pleased with the results so far.
Carry on.:D


Crazy, huh? :D

Jesusinmyheart
May 11th 2007, 05:06 PM
Saved 7,

i have one question to ask you in regards to your statement in above post.


If we love Him, we will by nature obey. It isn't the other way around, we aren't supposed to prove our love by trying to obey, though that doesn't mean we are supposed to not obey. But rather it should be out of love for Him and a desire to please Him that we NATURALLY obey.If you truly love someone, will you not sometimes do that which is contrary to your fleshly nature, because you love the person ? IOW, because you love a person, you will put your own self aside, and do that which you would not normally want to do for another ?

There's no pride involved in that, it's called humbling oneself.

This is what Yeshua did on a much grander scale the night before He was crucified:
Remember His prayer:

Mat 26:39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will."

Do any of you really think Yeshua wanted to go through all of that ? No, but nevertheless, He did as God willed, not as Yeshuas flesh wanted.
I am sure Yeshua did many things against what His body would have had Him do, but He subjected Himself, as we all should, He was God, but He was also in this earthly flesh. Just cause you nevber hear about it in scripture aside from this one final time, doesn't mean he didn't have that aspect of humanness. He just never complained.

Php 2:14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning,
Php 2:15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,
Php 2:16 holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

In the same way we need to pay our price, and pick up our cross:

Mat 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.


1Co 6:20 For you were bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.

diffangle
May 11th 2007, 05:42 PM
Jesus said, "If you love me you will obey my commandments." And those commmandments were love. If we love Him, we will by nature obey. It isn't the other way around, we aren't supposed to prove our love by trying to obey, though that doesn't mean we are supposed to not obey. But rather it should be out of love for Him and a desire to please Him that we NATURALLY obey. But pride doesn't allow us to love as we are commaned to love, pride gets in our way of true fellowship, and true obedience. However, we will not be able to be perfect, and we have to remember that.


If we believe Yahushua is YHWH in the flesh, does it make sense that the way to show Him love is obeying His Commandments that were in place from the beginning?


But ultimately, I believe it was the "prideful" that Jesus was talking to, because our pride keeps us from truely bowing the knee.:saint:


I'm not saying you are but others have been... is it a prideful thing to be angry/mocking at those who choose to obey His Commandments that have been in place from the beginning?


I suppose it would have been much easier if I had put this in there from the get go, but I wanted to give others something to think about.
Though I suppose you will still disagree with me along with many others.
That's ok.:)

That is okay, we can definately agree to disagree, I love you no matter what, that includes those who have mocked us. :cry: :hug:

Peace :)

Braves27
May 11th 2007, 06:40 PM
The OLD Testament does not include "we" Please take ....


In all of this, as hard as I tried, I could not find anything actually relating to the topic at hand.
Here's the thing:
I've been trying to figure this out for a while now, and have pretty much come to be sure that my stance is as GOD's word instructs. Through all the arguments I've seen against keeping GOD's law, every one either relies (like the one in the post I quoted) entirely on interpretation of otherwise unrelated scriptures, or entirely on certain words of Paul.
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
You all have to remember that Paul writes complicated things that are hard to understand. Remeber, he is an apostle of Jesus Christ, and nothing he says is going to contradict the words of Jesus, or, for that matter, anything else in the Bible. So, when you find something in his letters that appears to do that(and Jesus definitely never told anyone not to follow the law--every appropriate scripture is already laid down in this thread), humble yourself and realize that you are not understanding it correctly. Read more thoroughly and pray for understanding:
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.




Yall listen to Jesusinmyheart. He's dropping some serious knowledge right now. Read the scriptures he's posting. Read them.

HalleluYAH
May 11th 2007, 07:46 PM
Yall listen to Jesusinmyheart. He's dropping some serious knowledge right now. Read the scriptures he's posting. Read them.
Agreed. Except he is spelling the Messiah's name wrong. ;)

Jesusinmyheart
May 11th 2007, 08:12 PM
Braves 27,

i'm a she ;)

Jesusinmyheart
May 11th 2007, 08:14 PM
Agreed. Except he is spelling the Messiah's name wrong.

If i'm in error on His name, please do show me.

jiggyfly
May 11th 2007, 11:15 PM
1 Timothy 1:3-11
3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6 from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 knowing this, that the law is notmade for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

diffangle
May 11th 2007, 11:51 PM
1 Timothy 1:3-11
3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6 from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 knowing this, that the law is notmade for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.


It's made for the lawless and disobedient... Yahushua said, " Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. "

Have you ever been guilty of being angry at your brother? Have you ever been guilty of any of those things listed in 1 Timothy? If so, would that make you guilty of lawlessness?

Saved7
May 12th 2007, 12:07 AM
Saved 7,

i have one question to ask you in regards to your statement in above post.

If you truly love someone, will you not sometimes do that which is contrary to your fleshly nature, because you love the person ? IOW, because you love a person, you will put your own self aside, and do that which you would not normally want to do for another ?

There's no pride involved in that, it's called humbling oneself.



Ummm, that's what I said. :rolleyes: When I said "by nature" I meant it will be a natural thing to us, because of our love for him, it's our "new" nature.

Braves27
May 12th 2007, 12:10 AM
Braves 27,

i'm a she ;)

:o haha...sorry bout that.

jiggyfly
May 12th 2007, 12:24 AM
It's made for the lawless and disobedient... Yahushua said, " Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. "

Have you ever been guilty of being angry at your brother? Have you ever been guilty of any of those things listed in 1 Timothy? If so, would that make you guilty of lawlessness?

Prime example, desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

Braves27
May 12th 2007, 12:24 AM
1 Timothy 1:3-11
3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 knowing this, that the law is notmade for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Read the scripture you posted. I was going to post the exact same scripture. Read it harder, please.

Or I could just do this:

1 Timothy 1:3-11
3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Jesusinmyheart
May 12th 2007, 12:35 AM
Ummm, that's what I said. When I said "by nature" I meant it will be a natural thing to us, because of our love for him, it's our "new" nature.Ok saved7, i thougth you meant the same but wasn't sure.
Seems we're on the same page, though i would say that doing the right thing doesn't always come naturally, even when we do love Him, since we're all still living in these fleshly bodies.

diffangle
May 12th 2007, 12:50 AM
Prime example, desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.


Have you ever been guilty of being angry at your brother? :confused

jiggyfly
May 12th 2007, 01:12 AM
Read the scripture you posted. I was going to post the exact same scripture. Read it harder, please.

Or I could just do this:
I would challenge you to do the same. I used to believe very simular to the way you do, some time ago. But now I see things quite differently. I used to be very involved with the religious institution, which generally mixes the two covenants together. But now many of the things which I thought were important, I now know that they are only distractions to what is important, I know these things because Father is revealing Christ in me. He has preeminence over everything.

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 01:37 AM
When we are speaking about the law, I think it is necessary to distinguish between 1.) the natural law, which is the law "written in our hearts" (Romans 2:15); 2.) the Divine Eternal law (the 10 commandments); and 3.) the ceremonial, dietary, and sacrificial laws of the Old Covenant, which were laws pertaining specifically to the Jewish religion, and which are now no longer binding

When the New Testament says we are not under "the law", and are not saved by "the works of the law" it is referring to the ceremonial, sacrificial, and dietary laws contained in the Old Testament; not the 10 commandments or the "natural law" which is stamped upon the rational mind of man. These laws are still binding upon man; and if we violate them we are guilty of sin (iniquity). That is why the New Testament often states that we must keep the 10 commandments.

1 John 2:3-5: "And hereby do we know that we know him, if we keep His commandments. He that sayeth I know Him and keepeth not His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in Him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected, hereby know we that we are in Him"(1 Jn 2:3-5)

1 Cor 6: 9-10: "Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liars with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God."

Obedience to the 10 commandments is still binding. In fact, according to our Lord, if we desire to know the truth of God, obeying the commandments is necessary.

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith to him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him: If a man loveth me, he will keep my words: and My Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings" (Jn 14:22-24).

When asked how a person would come to know the truth, Truth Itself said that loving God, as expressed through obedience to the commandments of God was the way a person would come to the truth.

"If you love Me" said Jesus, "keep My commandments" (Jn 14:15).

So, as we can see, we are not completely without the law. We are not under the old law; instead, we are still under the law of Christ, as we read on Corinthians:

1 Cor 9: "And I became to the Jews a Jew, that I might gain the Jews: To them that are under the law, as if I were under the law (whereas I myself was not under the law), that I might gain them that were under the law. To them that were without the law [meaning the old Testament law], as if I were without the law, (whereas I was not without the law, but was under the law of Christ)...

Paul knew he was no longer subject to the Jewish "law" (the ceremonial, sacrificial, and dietary laws of the Jewish religion), but realized that he was still subject to "the law of Christ". What is this law of Christ?

The law of Christ is the Eternal law of God (as expressed in the 10 commandments) internalized; that is, it is the 10 commandments being obeyed from the heart: not just according to the letter, but according to the spirit.

The old Law required obedience according to the letter; whereas the new Law - "the Law of Christ" - requires obedience from the heart, for the heart is the source from which sin comes forth:

"For from within out of the heart of men proceeds evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these things come from within, and defile a man" (Mark 7:21-23).

The "law of Christ" forbids violations of the commandments, not just according to the letter, but according to the spirit - from the heart.

That is why, in the Sermon on the Mount, Our dear Lord said: "You have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: but I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" (Mt, 5:27-28).

If you read the writings of the Fathers of the Church, you will find that they all knew this. Obedience to the law of Christ is necessary; and violations of this law (even spiritual violations) are "iniquity".

When Jesus said "depart from me ye workers of iniquity", He was referring to those who lived lives contrary to the spirit of the 10 commandments. Not necessarily those who slipped from time to time and repented of their sins, but rather those who lived unrepentant in sin. These are the ones who our Lord "never knew". They may have thought they knew Him, but, in reality, He never knew them.

jiggyfly
May 12th 2007, 03:02 AM
When we are speaking about the law, I think it is necessary to distinguish between 1.) the natural law, which is the law "written in our hearts" (Romans 2:15); 2.) the Divine Eternal law (the 10 commandments); and 3.) the ceremonial, dietary, and sacrificial laws of the Old Covenant, which were laws pertaining specifically to the Jewish religion, and which are now no longer binding
I cannot find where any of the writers the new testament made any of these distinctions given by you in the new testament scriptures.

ravi4u2
May 12th 2007, 03:15 AM
The apostles (New Testament) and the prophets (the Old Testament) are contained in this; "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strength; and love your neighbor as yourself."

Braves27
May 12th 2007, 03:20 AM
I would challenge you to do the same. I used to believe very simular to the way you do, some time ago. But now I see things quite differently. I used to be very involved with the religious institution, which generally mixes the two covenants together. But now many of the things which I thought were important, I now know that they are only distractions to what is important, I know these things because Father is revealing Christ in me. He has preeminence over everything.
The problem is that it's a distraction. This is not supposed to be such a big point of strife-or even a big point of discussion-and it's a shame that it is. It's just supposed to be done.
Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.



I cannot find where any of the writers the new testament made any of these distinctions given by you in the new testament scriptures.
Yeah, the dietary laws are still binding. "Ceremonial" is kind of vague, and sacrificial are obviously not to be done because Christ was our sacrifice.:D

jiggyfly
May 12th 2007, 03:52 AM
I am bowing out, I don't see the point of us hashing out our point of views over and over again. I see the new covenant in a different light than you all and we don't seem to interpret the scriptures the same either. I can't see any benefit from continuing this debate any longer. Good day

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 01:15 PM
Yeah, the dietary laws are still binding. "Ceremonial" is kind of vague, and sacrificial are obviously not to be done because Christ was our sacrifice.:D

You believe the dietary laws of the Jewish religion, such as not eating pork, are still binding? If these laws, which are not contained in the 10 commandments, nor in the natural law stamped upon our heart, are still binding, then what part of the law has been nullified?

In Acts 10, the white sheet descending three times signified that the unclean animals had been cleansed, thereby nullifying the dietary laws contained in the old law which forbade eating unclean animals:

Acts 10: 9-16: "And on the next day, whilst they were going on their journey, and drawing nigh to the city, Peter went up to the higher parts of the house to pray, about the sixth hour. And being hungry, he was desirous to taste somewhat. And as they were preparing, there came upon him an ecstasy of mind. And he saw the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great linen sheet let down by the four corners from heaven to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts, and creeping things of the earth, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common. And this was done thrice; and presently the vessel was taken up into heaven."

In Colosians, Paul tells them not to allow the Jews to judge them for eating meat, or not taking part in the ceremonies of the festival days, since these were merely a shadow of what was to come:

Col 2:16-26: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat or drink, or in respect of a festive day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come...".

When Paul speaks of "the works of the law" in Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, that is what he is referring to. He is not referring to the 10 commandments, the violation of which is still forbidden.

This is evident when you consider that the New Testament repeatedly states that we are not under the law, yet also repeatedly states that we must keep the commandments. And when asked which commandments we are to keep to "enter into life", Jesus listed them (Mt 19:17-18).

At the end of the first letter to Timothy, Paul expressly tells him to keep the commandments:

1 Tim 6:13,14: "I charge thee before God... that thou keep the commandments without spot, blameless, unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".

The same apostle who repeatedly said that we are no longer "under the law", and should not follow the law, also says that we are still bound by the commandments. What does this show us? It shows that there is a distinction between the 10 commandments that were given directly by God Himself, and the 600 + additional commandments given by Mosses.

It is the additional 600 + commandmentsl or "laws" which constitute the "law" that Paul often speaks of. I believe this was obvious to those who Paul wrote to and thus needed no explanation.

We have to keep in mind the times in which the New Testament was written. It was wriitten at a time when most of the Christians were converts from Judaism. These people had been followers of the "law" all their lives, and their parents and grandparent before them. The law was deeply ingrained into them.

This is why the Judaizers had such success. They sought to incorporate the "works of the law" (circumcision, etc.) in with the Christian religion. It was these Judaizers that Paul often condended with in his epistles, especially the ones to the Romans, Ephesians, and Galatians. These were all written against the errors of the Judaizers who sought to incorporate "the works of the law" in with the Christian faith.

diffangle
May 12th 2007, 03:35 PM
You believe the dietary laws of the Jewish religion, such as not eating pork, are still binding? If these laws, which are not contained in the 10 commandments, nor in the natural law stamped upon our heart, are still binding, then what part of the law has been nullified?


The sacrifice for sin has been atoned for by you know who. ;) I believe the dietary laws are definately a good thing. Yahushua and the Apostles were kosher, Yahushua was Perfect... meaning He didn't transgress the Torah. There's actually scientific/health reasons also why eating pork is really bad for you (amazing how YHWH knows these things before we do :) ). Here's an excerpt from a book by Sanford R. Howard...

"O.S. Parrett, M.d., Who has made an extensive study of disease in food animals, declares: 'Very rigorous food inspection was carried out by the priests who served as medical officers. Moses forbade the use of both swine's flesh and shellfish; and it may be pertinent to remark the gentile world, which largely ignores these health rules, shows an estimated occurrence of trichina infection among adults in the U.S of twenty-five percent- according to the research of two San Francisco doctors, reported in the Journal of the American Medical Association. Post-mortem examination by these doctors of pieces of the diaphragm muscles from 100 bodies showed 23 harboring trichinea, and from the second 100 they were able to demonstrate 25 positive cases. Every fifth pork sausage from the best markets was found to contain living trichinea'."

"After the infested pork is eaten, the worms are set free in the stomach of the host by gastric digestion, where the males and females mate, following where the females produce a large amount of larvae. Through the blood stream or the lymphatic these larvae quickly migrate into the tissue, finding lodgment mainly in muscle tissue throughout the body, especially in the diaphragm muscle."

He also says that that trichinosis alot of times gets mistakenly diagnosed as influenza or muscular rheumatism and that it probally affects one out of four people. :eek:

Here's what YHWH has to say about eating swine's flesh...

I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way [that was] not good, after their own thoughts; A people that provoketh me to anger continually to My face;... which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable [things is in] their vessels;


In Acts 10, the white sheet descending three times signified that the unclean animals had been cleansed, thereby nullifying the dietary laws contained in the old law which forbade eating unclean animals:

Acts 10: 9-16: "And on the next day, whilst they were going on their journey, and drawing nigh to the city, Peter went up to the higher parts of the house to pray, about the sixth hour. And being hungry, he was desirous to taste somewhat. And as they were preparing, there came upon him an ecstasy of mind. And he saw the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great linen sheet let down by the four corners from heaven to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts, and creeping things of the earth, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common. And this was done thrice; and presently the vessel was taken up into heaven."


That vision had nothing to do with food... it was about showing him that it was okay to go speak the Gospel to the gentiles. Look ahead in verses 19-24...

19While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him. 24And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and he had called together his kinsmen and near friends.


In Colosians, Paul tells them not to allow the Jews to judge them for eating meat, or not taking part in the ceremonies of the festival days, since these were merely a shadow of what was to come:

Col 2:16-26: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat or drink, or in respect of a festive day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come...".


He was telling the believer's to not let the pagans judge them for observing the Scriptural observations... as he says, those things(Scriptural observations) are shadows of things to come. Eventually the pagan's started forcing the believer's to observe the pagan celebrations and forsake the Scriptural observations... they made it punishable by death to observe what He has Commanded us to do.:(



It is the additional 600 + commandmentsl or "laws" which constitute the "law" that Paul often speaks of. I believe this was obvious to those who Paul wrote to and thus needed no explanation.

We have to keep in mind the times in which the New Testament was written. It was wriitten at a time when most of the Christians were converts from Judaism. These people had been followers of the "law" all their lives, and their parents and grandparent before them. The law was deeply ingrained into them.

This is why the Judaizers had such success. They sought to incorporate the "works of the law" (circumcision, etc.) in with the Christian religion. It was these Judaizers that Paul often condended with in his epistles, especially the ones to the Romans, Ephesians, and Galatians. These were all written against the errors of the Judaizers who sought to incorporate "the works of the law" in with the Christian faith.

There are two Torah's in Judaism, there is the written Torah and the oral Torah. The written is the true Word of YHWH and the oral is all man-made laws and traditions that most Jews hold higher than the actual true Torah. Judaizer's were those who wanted to keep the burdensome yolk of the oral law on the people. As the Messiah said, " Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the Prophets;... Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Heaven and earth have not passed away yet.

Peace :)

Braves27
May 12th 2007, 04:24 PM
well...diff just about said everything I could have.:)

Braves27
May 12th 2007, 04:43 PM
well....just to drive the point home with Acts 10:

First, read verse 17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate.
So, he didn't know what the vision meant. But he was pretty sure it didn't actually mean all food was clean.

Now, to pickup where he left off:


Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. 27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together. 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation;so, here's this Roman, this Gentile, who a Israelite was not even supposed to be keeping company with but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. And now Peter knows what the vision meant----that he should not call any MAN common or unclean.
Praise YHWH
:D

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 05:11 PM
Here's what YHWH has to say about eating swine's flesh...

I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way [that was] not good, after their own thoughts; A people that provoketh me to anger continually to My face;... which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable [things is in] their vessels;


Do you think eating pork is still forbidden?

diffangle
May 12th 2007, 06:24 PM
Do you think eating pork is still forbidden?


Imo, yes... I won't go near the stuff. ;)

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 06:25 PM
Acts 10: "And he saw the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great linen sheet let down by the four corners from heaven to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts, and creeping things of the earth, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common.


That vision had nothing to do with food... it was about showing him that it was okay to go speak the Gospel to the gentiles. Look ahead in verses 19-24...

How can you say it had nothing to do with food? The voice told him to "kill and eat". To which Peter replied "I never did eat any think that is common or unclean". Then, the voice responded: "that which God hath cleansed, do not call common".

The subject is dealing with eating unclean food, which the voice said "God hath cleansed". So how can you say it has nothing to do with food? You have to ignore the subject to make that claim.

Now, after this vision Peter is sent to the Gentile Cornelius, and, in my opinion, this is not unrelated to the sheet descending three times (since it probably also signified that the Gentiles were no longer to be considered unclean), but you cannot apply it to the Gentiles only and ignore what is explicitly said. And what was explicitly said is this "Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common", thereby showing that the unclean meats had been made clean.


Col 2:16-26: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat or drink, or in respect of a festive day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come...".


He was telling the believer's to not let the pagans judge them for observing the Scriptural observations... as he says, those things(Scriptural observations) are shadows of things to come. Eventually the pagan's started forcing the believer's to observe the pagan celebrations and forsake the Scriptural observations... they made it punishable by death to observe what He has Commanded us to do.

He is referring to the Judaizers who were attempting to have the Christians incorporate the Jewish law in with Christianity (which, based on your posts, seems to be an error you yourself have fallen into). They mingled Christianity with the works of the law - the deitary laws, ceremonial laws (such as circumcision, etc.) with the Christian religions.


There are two Torah's in Judaism, there is the written Torah and the oral Torah. The written is the true Word of YHWH and the oral is all man-made laws and traditions that most Jews hold higher than the actual true Torah. Judaizer's were those who wanted to keep the burdensome yolk of the oral law on the people.

If that was true, then circumcision would have been part of the oral Torah, since that is one of the practices the Judaizers promoted, which is why the apostles spent so much time arguing agaisnt this in their epistles.

You confirmed what I thought. You are like the Judaizers of old. Our Lord did not just do away with the oral law; he fullfilled and nullified the written Torah as well, which is why circumcision - which was part of the written law - is not longer necessary.

You need to read the book of Hebews, which was written to explain that the Old law merely prefigured what was to come, and is now no more, as well as the letter to the Ephesians and Galations. Read the letter to teh Galatians slowly and carefully and see what it says in chapter 4, beginning in verse 21. I personally have never heard anyone comment on this verse. My guess is that you will be surpised to see what (or who) Paul compares the Old Law to.

The Old Covenant was revoked when it was fulfilled by Jesus. The Old Testament Levitical priesthood is no more... it doesn't exist. The priest of the old Law were the descendants of Aaron, and the lineage of that priesthood has long since disapeared. God destroyed the Old Covenant almost 2000 years ago, after establishing the New.

Hebrews: "Now in saying new, he hath made former the old. And that which decayeth and groweth old, is near its end" (Heb 8:13).

It came to its final end in 70AD, a few years after the letter to the Hebrews was written. The Temples was destroyed, the unbelieving Jews were scattered, and the New covenant, which replaced the Old, grew to cover the world.

"My people did not hear My voice, and Israel harkened not to Me... They gave me gall for My food, and in My thirst they gave Me vinegar to drink... Let their eyes be darkened, and their back bend down always. Pour out Thy indignation upon them: let Thy wrathful anger take hold of them. Let their habitation be made desolate, and let there be no one to dwell in their tabernacles, because they have added to the grief of My wounds. Add Thou iniquity upon their iniquity; and let them not come into Thy justice. Let them be blotten out of the book of the Living, and with the Just let them not be written" (Psalms 80: 12;62:22-29).



As the Messiah said, " Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the Prophets;... Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Heaven and earth have not passed away yet.

Heaven and earth have not pased away, that is true. But what did Jesus say? He said that not one jot or tittle shall pass from the las "til all be fulfilled". Well, what did Jesus come to do? He explains in the portion of the quote that you left out...

Mt. 5:17: "Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill"

Jesus said the Old law would not pass until it was fulfilled, and Jesus filfilled it. It has now been nullified and replaced with the New, as the book of Hebrews explains.

I've seen a tendency for years now of Christians attempting to mingle the Old and New laws, which is what the Judaizers of old did, and what you are now doing.

Beware of this deadly error, which is condemned over and over again in the New Testament.

Galatians 3:1-10 "O senseless Galatians, who hath bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish, that, whereas you began in the Spirit, you would now be made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so great things in vain? If it be yet in vain. He therefore who giveth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you; doth he do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of the faith?

"As it is written: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice. Know ye therefore, that they who are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing, that God justifieth the Gentiles by faith, told unto Abraham before: In thee shall all nations be blessed. Therefore they that are of faith, shall be blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law, are under a curse. For it is written: Cursed is every one, that abideth not in all things, which are written in the book of the law to do them."

Notice that he says "written in the book of the law", thereby showing that it was not simply the oral Torah that was nullified, but the written on as well.

diffangle
May 12th 2007, 06:34 PM
RSiscoe,

Everything that you are bringing up has already been hashed out in this thread before. I assumed you hadn't really read the whole thing and jumped in so instead of suggesting to you to go back and read the whole thread, I was/am willing to rehash this for your sake... but only if you will be respectful, refrain from name-calling, and actually try to understand what is being posted by those of us that see things differently than you.

Should we continue? :confused

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 06:38 PM
RSiscoe,

Everything that you are bringing up has already been hashed out in this thread before. I assumed you hadn't really read the whole thing and jumped in so instead of suggesting to you to go back and read the whole thread, I was/am willing to rehash this for your sake... but only if you will be respectful, refrain from name-calling, and actually try to understand what is being posted by those of us that see things differently than you.

Should we continue? :confused

Probably not. If what I am saying has already been explained in this thread there's probably no reason to continue. As you know, these discussion can take a lot of time. No need for us to spend our time discussing what has already been discussed.

Braves27
May 12th 2007, 09:08 PM
How can you ignore Acts 10:17?

Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made inquiry from Simon's house, and stood before the gate



....CLEARLY, Peter did not know what the vision meant. Of all the visions and dreams described in the Bible, and the interpretations given, you can't see that they need interpretation? God gave this interpretation to Peter not even a few verses later!

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 10:05 PM
How can you ignore Acts 10:17?

Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made inquiry from Simon's house, and stood before the gate



....CLEARLY, Peter did not know what the vision meant. Of all the visions and dreams described in the Bible, and the interpretations given, you can't see that they need interpretation? God gave this interpretation to Peter not even a few verses later!

In my opinion you are ignoring the obvious because it is not want you want to believe.

The explanation of the vision was given by the "voice" immediatly after Peter saw the vision. The vision was of the sheet descending. After the sheet descended, the voice told Peter to kill and eat. Peter responded by saying he had never killed and eaten anything unclean, to which the voice responded "That which God hath cleansed, do not call common".

Acts 10: "And he saw the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great linen sheet let down by the four corners from heaven to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts, and creeping things of the earth, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common."

The fact that Peter disputed within himself what the vision meant does not surprise me. Think about it. Peter had just seen an extraordinary vision, along with a voice explaining that what used to be considered unclean and was forbidden, was not cleansed. It makes sense to me that Peter would be wondering about what just happened. "Was the vision from God or the devil", he may have wondered. "Did it really mean that unclean animals are now clean?" etc..

Maybe Peter was wondering why it was done three times, rather than just once. Remember, after the sheet descended and the voice explained that the unclean meat had been cleansed by God, we are told that the sheet descended again, for a total of three times. Maybe Peter was wondering why it descended the two other times?

In my opinion, the sheet descending three times probably signifies three unclean things being cleansed. We know that the unclean meat was cleansed because the voice specifically said so. The second time probably signified that the Gentiles were now "cleansed" in such a way that they could be incorporated into the house of Israel - the Church - which Paul refers to as "the Israel of God". I'm not sure what the third time would signify, but i think the fact that the sheet descended three times shows that three different categories of unclean things were cleansed.

diffangle
May 12th 2007, 10:32 PM
In my opinion you are ignoring the obvious because it is not want you want to believe.


Ditto... your choosing rebellion to His Word. The sheet descending three times indicated the three gentiles that would be knocking at the door right after Peter's vision.

Act 10:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Act&chapter=10&verse=7&version=kjv#7)And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;

Act 10:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Act&chapter=10&verse=8&version=kjv#8)And when he had declared all [these] things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.

Act 10:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Act&chapter=10&verse=17&version=kjv#17)¶Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,


Two household servants plus one devout soldier makes three.

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 10:48 PM
Ditto... your choosing rebellion to His Word. The sheet descending three times indicated the three gentiles that would be knocking at the door right after Peter's vision.

Act 10:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Act&chapter=10&verse=7&version=kjv#7)And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;

Act 10:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Act&chapter=10&verse=8&version=kjv#8)And when he had declared all [these] things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.

Act 10:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Act&chapter=10&verse=17&version=kjv#17)¶Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,


Two household servants plus one devout soldier makes three.

What is your interpretation of this:

Acts 10: "And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common."

What was cleansed?

diffangle
May 12th 2007, 11:05 PM
What was cleansed?


The gentiles. The Jews in those days thought of the goyim as being impure and seperated themselves from them as some still do to this day. That's why the Apostles were surprised to see Yahushua speaking to the Goyim/Samaritian woman at the well...

Jhn 4:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=4&verse=9&version=kjv#9)Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

Jhn 4:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=4&verse=27&version=kjv#27)¶And upon this came His disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman:

RSiscoe
May 12th 2007, 11:39 PM
The gentiles. The Jews in those days thought of the goyim as being impure and seperated themselves from them as some still do to this day.

Was Peter told to kill and eat the Gentiles?

Acts 10: "And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common."

Your telling me that this verse refers to the Gentiles?

diffangle
May 12th 2007, 11:51 PM
Was Peter going to kill and eat the Gentiles?


Are you familiar with metaphor's?


Acts 10: "And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common."

Your telling me that this verse refers to the Gentiles?

Can you provide Scripture to show that Peter arose after that vision and ate unclean meat ever?

RSiscoe
May 13th 2007, 10:35 AM
Can you provide Scripture to show that Peter arose after that vision and ate unclean meat ever?

I don't know. I'll have to read through the Bible and see.

But I can show that no meat is unclean. Jews may think it is unclean, but in reality it no longer is. This was a big issue at the time the Bible was written. The apostles talk about it in several places in the Bible. And it makes perfect sense that it would have been such a big issue.

Consider that most of the Christians were Jewish converts who had been taught from birth that eating certain meats was against God's law. This had been the practice of their relatives for many generations. It makes sense that some who converted to Christianity, and who were then told that eating these meats was allowed, would have scrupples about it; and may even be scandalized to see other former Jews eating these meats. This subject was addressed by the Aposltes. He instructs the Jewish converts how to deal with this issue. What are they to do if certain Jews are "weak in faith" and do not feel comfortable eating meat? Paul answers this in the book of Romans, where he tells them that nothing is unclean of itself, but that if eating meat scandalizes a brother, it should be avoided for the sake of the one who is weaker in faith. He respects the erroneous consience of the one who is weaker in faith, since the conscience was formed according to a law of God that has now changed. He realizes that it make take some time - and a strengthening of faith - before the erroneous conscience is corrected. After all, eating meat is not contrary to the natural law, but was a dietary law that God gave to the Jews, kind of like the one He gave Adam.

God forbade Adam from eating the forbidden fruit to test his obedience. Similarly, God gave the Jews their dietary laws to test their obedience, and to separate them from the Gentiles. These laws are not part of any law of nature, and as such can and did change.

But at first many of the Jews had a problem adjusting thier conscience to such a change, and this is what Paul addresses below:

Romans 14: "Now him that is weak in faith, take unto you: not in disputes about thoughts. For one believeth that he may eat all things: but he that is weak, let him eat herbs. Let not him that eateth [meat], despise him that eateth not: and he that eateth not [meat], let him not judge him that eateth. For God hath taken him to him.... he that eateth [meats], eateth to the Lord: for he giveth thanks to God. And he that eateth not [meats], to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth thanks to God. ... But thou, why judgest thou thy brother? or thou, why dost thou despise thy brother? ... Let us not therefore judge one another any more. But judge this rather, that you put not a stumblingblock or a scandal in your brother's way. I know, and am confident in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself; but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if, because of thy meat, thy brother be grieved, thou walkest not now according to charity. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. It is good not to eat flesh, and not to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother is offended, or scandalized, or made weak. Hast thou faith? Have it to thyself before God. Blessed is he that condemneth not himself in that which he alloweth."

What he is saying here is that no meat is any longer unclean of itself, but that if eating these meats scandalizes the brother who is weaker in faith, they should not eat meat in the presence of the weaker one, so as not to scandalize him.

Faithwalker
May 13th 2007, 11:08 AM
Faithwalker,

The sacrifices we make today are when we pick up our cross and deny our flesh and bring it into subjection to God's will. How do we know God's will ?
Look at the Law, and you know it.
This is why we follow the Law, cause we love Him Who loved us first.

Jam 1:25 But he that looketh into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and so continueth, being not a hearer that forgetteth but a doer that worketh, this man shall be blessed in his doing.


We are not in bondage to sin, or under the Law, by following it, cause Yeshua has died for us, and His blood washes us clean. We have been set free to walk like Him.

If you are still following the Torah law, you are not following the law of liberty, therefore you are not free at all, but still in bondage. Further, you desire to lay this yoke of bondage upon others. What amazes me is how well this christian fellowship puts up with these efforts to do so.



This is what it means to have Faith in Him, that if we follow/emulate Him, we will not be condemned even though we fall short.


Jesus is not nor ever will be a crutch to Moses law, just in case you fall short of keeping them. The law cannot produce the life of Christ in anyone. Only Jesus Christ can do that.




You're obviously asking me/us to check our faith, and see if i/we are wrong, but you have not yet really opened your mind and eyes to see if we could possibly be right.
Would it hurt you to take a second look ?
Those little "contradictions about the Law" will never begin to make sense to you, unless you deny those scriptures that do not fit. OR, you open your mind, and ask God for complete truth as i had done.


Deny those scriptures that do not fit? Just because you are willing to do that, does not mean I should.



I went straight to the Word and asked for answers. Do you really think the Word could possibly lead me astray ? Will God when i ask for Truth give me a snake instead ?
I had NO agenda when i asked God for Truth, i wanted to know Truth, and nothing but the Truth. And that is what i've been given.
I did not go to church, but completely searched the scriptures, dilligently searched nothing but the Word. When i emerged with the truth, i then learned what "denomination" i belonged to.


The TRUTH is a person, and can only be found in Jesus Christ, not Jesus Christ AND...

Do I think the Word (Jesus Christ) would lead you astray. NO.
But do I think the scripture can, obviously so. You turn to the Torah, which is not even Gods covenant with you, trying to find life that can ONLY be found in Jesus Christ.

John 5:39 You examine the Scriptures carefully because you suppose that in them you have eternal life. Yet they testify about me. But you are not willing to come to me to have life.

Again I repeat, there is NO LIFE to be found in the Torah, it will only kill those trying to keep it.


2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
But there are some among you who do not believe."

joztok
May 13th 2007, 01:49 PM
You are right, it does mean that. But followers of Christ are not under the law.
And if we try to live according to the law, then we are under the law and not under grace. And we are not able to live according to the law, which is why Christ died for us. To pay for our sins. And it is Christ who is saying "away from me".
Also, what did Jesus say are the greatest commandments? To love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength, and the second is like it, to love your neighbor as yourself.
Also, he said somewhere, maybe here, that in this is all the law and the prophets. And the description of love is quite humble, it places others before yourself. It is all connected.:saint:
Wow! So once again, this is referring to the Jewish audience specifically, not the church? This is incredible! So this event must be happening after the rapture of the church since church isn't governed by law but by the Holy Spirit?

joztok
May 13th 2007, 01:52 PM
What is your interpretation of this:

Acts 10: "And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common."

What was cleansed?
The world was cleansed!

RSiscoe
May 13th 2007, 02:34 PM
The world was cleansed!

You'r probably right. Earlier I said that the three times that the sheet descended sprobably signified three unclean things being cleansed: 1.) the Gentiles, 2.) the unclean foods, and 3.) something else (what else was considered unclean for the Jews? This would answer the question.).

In other words, the three times the sheet descended signifies that all that was considered unclean under the old Law, was cleansed. This would agree with what you, when you said that "the world was cleansed" - that is, everything in the world that was considered unclean.

But your answer would include what I have been arguinig, which is, that the unclean foods are no longer unclean.

Here's the quote in question one more time:

Acts 10: "And he saw the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great linen sheet let down by the four corners from heaven to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts, and creeping things of the earth, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common."

diffangle
May 13th 2007, 02:47 PM
I don't know. I'll have to read through the Bible and see.


There's not a single instance where Yahushua or the disciples ate unclean meat.


Consider that most of the Christians were Jewish converts who had been taught from birth that eating certain meats was against God's law.

Try to keep in mind that Paul was the one who was called to witness to the gentiles also, so he wasn't just dealing with Jews only. He had to contend with all kinds of gnostic types also.



This had been the practice of their relatives for many generations. It makes sense that some who converted to Christianity, and who were then told that eating these meats was allowed, would have scrupples about it; and may even be scandalized to see other former Jews eating these meats. This subject was addressed by the Aposltes.

Again, you won't find a single example of Yahushua or a disciple eating swine or shellfish.


He instructs the Jewish converts how to deal with this issue. What are they to do if certain Jews are "weak in faith" and do not feel comfortable eating meat?

He wasn't addressing the Jews in Rome. He was sent to the gentiles. Look at the beginning of Romans in chapter 1 who he was addressing...

13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.


Paul answers this in the book of Romans, where he tells them that nothing is unclean of itself, but that if eating meat scandalizes a brother, it should be avoided for the sake of the one who is weaker in faith. He respects the erroneous consience of the one who is weaker in faith, since the conscience was formed according to a law of God that has now changed. He realizes that it make take some time - and a strengthening of faith - before the erroneous conscience is corrected. After all, eating meat is not contrary to the natural law, but was a dietary law that God gave to the Jews, kind of like the one He gave Adam.


Paul was talking about the gnostic converts who were into abstaining from all meat. He wasn't making unclean meats clean. Unclean meats aren't even considered food... they are what they are, which is are filters for lots of trash/toxins that accumulate a lot of toxins in their systems, which you consume if you choose to eat unclean meats.


God forbade Adam from eating the forbidden fruit to test his obedience. Similarly, God gave the Jews their dietary laws to test their obedience, and to separate them from the Gentiles. These laws are not part of any law of nature, and as such can and did change.

You honestly believe that YHWH gave all the dietary laws out of trying to put a heavy yoke on the Israelites verses giving them the distinctions of clean and unclean out of wanting to give them what's best for their health/well being? They are a part of laws of nature as you can see from what I wrote earlier about how prolific trichinea infestation from swine is, plus, if shellfish and unclean fish like Tuna are so safe, then why do doctors tell pregnant women to stay away from them?


But at first many of the Jews had a problem adjusting thier conscience to such a change, and this is what Paul addresses below:

He wasn't addressing Jews, they were gentiles in Rome.


Romans 14: "Now him that is weak in faith, take unto you: not in disputes about thoughts. For one believeth that he may eat all things: but he that is weak, let him eat herbs. Let not him that eateth [meat], despise him that eateth not: and he that eateth not [meat], let him not judge him that eateth. For God hath taken him to him.... he that eateth [meats], eateth to the Lord: for he giveth thanks to God. And he that eateth not [meats], to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth thanks to God. ... But thou, why judgest thou thy brother? or thou, why dost thou despise thy brother? ... Let us not therefore judge one another any more. But judge this rather, that you put not a stumblingblock or a scandal in your brother's way. I know, and am confident in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself; but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if, because of thy meat, thy brother be grieved, thou walkest not now according to charity. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. It is good not to eat flesh, and not to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother is offended, or scandalized, or made weak. Hast thou faith? Have it to thyself before God. Blessed is he that condemneth not himself in that which he alloweth."


This passage is speaking specifically about the eating of meat(clean meats) verses eating vegetable only. He was addressing the gnostic idea of abstaining from meat. The gnostic converts were weaker in their faith b/c they were into practicing abstaining from all meats as an act of faith, which is not in agreement with Torah. They were taking the meats that YHWH made to be food and were making them out to be unclean. Here's a link that talks about the practices of the gnostics...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism#Moral_and_ritual_practice

... as you can see they, were into the combination of abstaining from meat and sex/marriage thus the verse where Paul speaks of this practice...

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils (YHWH's Word is not a doctrine of devils);... Forbidding to marry, [AND (AND... meaning in combination) commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving (YHWH shows in His Torah what meats were created to be recieved with thanksgiving)of them which believe and know the truth.


I challenge you to try and use nothing but Yahushua's or the other Apostle's writings, without using Paul's writing's, to prove that unclean meat is a good thing and that YHWH didn't really know what He was doing when defining clean and unclean meats. If Paul is saying what you think he's saying then it shouldn't be hard for you to make your point with the word's of the Messiah or the other Apostles.


As also in all [his(Paul's)] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Pe. 3:16

HalleluYAH
May 14th 2007, 12:43 PM
If i'm in error on His name, please do show me.
Yahshua is the correct spelling... the commong renditions of Y'shua and Yeshua are results of the 'ineffible' name paranoia that sprang among the Jews. Because of this, any of the names containing the MOST HIGH's name have been hidden. The correct pronunciation of the NAME was preserved, however, in many name of the prophets and the famous word of praise; Hallelu~YAH.

The spelling of such names is not important... this is called transliteration... if we spell it eeahooay and it is still pronounces YAHWEH. then sobeit.

That said, changing the name to Yeshua takes the Father's name from the SON... and this should not be so.

Jesusinmyheart
May 14th 2007, 03:11 PM
Makes sense. I wondered about this before.

MoreMercy
Feb 22nd 2012, 03:32 AM
.........Bump ! ;)