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Aman
May 6th 2007, 02:46 AM
Dear Readers, For ten years I've been debating evolutionists on an online message board. The understanding I have used to destroy their false assumptions is written in Genesis Chapter 1, which I believe gives the complete History of the Creation of the Perfect Heaven, including some events which are still Future.

I suppose you could say that I am a really young Young Earther. Most young earthers believe the morning of the Creation was 6,000 years ago. I believe the morning of the Creation was 6 Days ago or 6 Ages ago, for I believe the Bible tells us that God will make a Perfect Heaven in 6 Ages, and then He will rest.

Jesus tells us that He and His Father are still working today, Jhn 5:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn005.html#17) and we all know that the Holy Spirit is working today, to bring sinners to Christ. Genesis 2:2-3 tell us that God rests from ALL of His work on the 7th Day. Is it possible that we are living today, at the end of the 6th Age? Is Genesis 1:30 Prophecy, which will be fulfilled when the Lion lays down by the Lamb?

In Love,
Aman

Dunedanranger
May 6th 2007, 02:57 AM
I can't help but realize this is your first post- did you come here just to tell us this? And did someone put this in your head, or did you dream it up yourself? I suppose I sound terribly rude, but I assure you I don't mean to be. Remember that we as Christians are told to test what we hear- and that's all I'm doing.

Eaglenester
May 6th 2007, 03:16 AM
When Yahweh rested in Genesis 2 is is PAST tense - He ALREADY rested - not WILL rest.

The works He rested from were all He HAD done - again PAST tense, that does NOT mean He won't have more FUTURE works.

The worh RESTED in Genesis 2 is related to the word SABBATH.

The Sabbath, you rested from the previous 6 days, then went back to work again.


Nice concept :hmm:, but is NOT in context of Scripture :thumbsdn:

Aman
May 6th 2007, 03:20 AM
Dune:>>I can't help but realize this is your first post- did you come here just to tell us this?

Dear Dune, Yes. I tell everyone who is interested in God's Truth.

Dune:>>And did someone put this in your head, or did you dream it up yourself?

I read it in God's Holy Word. God put it in my heart.

Dune:>>I suppose I sound terribly rude, but I assure you I don't mean to be. Remember that we as Christians are told to test what we hear- and that's all I'm doing.

I understand and I don't recommend that New Christians listen to me, but only those who seek the meat of the Word.

My understanding agrees with Scripture, every true discovery of mankind, and History. It does not agree with the traditional view taught by the Jews, Catholics, or Archbishop Ussher.

I believe that Gen 1:30 when EVERY animal eats green herbs for meat, is Prophecy. It will be fulfilled when Jesus returns to this Planet to set up His millenial reign. Beginning at Isa 11:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=11&verse=1&version=kjv#1) this Prophecy is fulfilled.

BTW, Science has discovered that some animals have always been carniverous and there has Never been a time in the History of this planet when ALL animals were vegetarians. God's Truth is the Truth in every way.

In Love,
Aman

diffangle
May 6th 2007, 03:21 AM
Hi Aman :)

This seems like it may be better suited for the end times section... but hey, what do I know. ;)




Is Genesis 1:30 Prophecy, which will be fulfilled when the Lion lays down by the Lamb?


I believe that the vegan diet described in Gen. 1:29 was His original/perfect diet plan for mankind and beast and it is interesting to note that in the the very last chapter of the Scriptures in Revelations, He talks about the trees being used to heal the nations. :hmm:

diffangle
May 6th 2007, 03:25 AM
BTW, Science has discovered that some animals have always been carniverous and there has Never been a time in the History of this planet when ALL animals were vegetarians. God's Truth is the Truth in every way.

Doh! :eek: You lost me there... you'll find science that says the earth is billions of years old too.

Aman
May 6th 2007, 03:32 AM
When Yahweh rested in Genesis 2 is is PAST tense - He ALREADY rested - not WILL rest.

The works He rested from were all He HAD done - again PAST tense, that does NOT mean He won't have more FUTURE works.

Dear Eagle, It is God (Elohim), the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who will rest from ALL works on the 7th Day, which has no end.

Eagle:>>The worh RESTED in Genesis 2 is related to the word SABBATH.

In fact, rested is the Hebrew word "Shabath" and means Cease in Hebrew. Gen 2:2 is telling us that God will Cease from ALL of His labor on the 7th Day. IF God has already rested, then how can we be Created in Christ, Today?

Eagle:>>The Sabbath, you rested from the previous 6 days, then went back to work again.

How could God rest from ALL of his work He created and made, and then go back to work? The word ALL is repeated twice in the narrative of Gen 2:2-3


Eagle:>>Nice concept :hmm:, but is NOT in context of Scripture :thumbsdn:

IF God has already rested, then Satan told Eve the Truth, and the LORD lied to Adam. The LORD told Adam he would die "in the Day" he disobeyed. Adam did die on the 6th Day, because the 6th Day will continue until ALL Christians are in Heaven. Only then will God's work be Finished (Heb-Brought to Perfection). Gen 2:1

In Love,
Aman

Saved7
May 6th 2007, 03:34 AM
Aman,
Would you kindly explain what you mean by the 6 ages, as opposed to 6 days? :confused I would like a better understanding of what you are suggesting so that I might be able to better discuss this with you.
But on the vegatarian diet, God specifically stated "after" the fall that now we may eat meat. So how does that fit in your 6 ages theory? :confused Do you suppose that maybe the carnivours were made that way because God knew what was to come?

BTW, It's good to have you aboard.:wave:

Aman
May 6th 2007, 03:40 AM
Hi Aman :)

This seems like it may be better suited for the end times section... but hey, what do I know. ;)




I believe that the vegan diet described in Gen. 1:29 was His original/perfect diet plan for mankind and beast and it is interesting to note that in the the very last chapter of the Scriptures in Revelations, He talks about the trees being used to heal the nations. :hmm:

Dear Diff, I believe that in Heaven, all animals will be vegetarians.

BTW, Adam in Hebrew means "mankind". We don't have dominion over Every living creature, yet, but we will have in Heaven.

In Love,
Aman

Dunedanranger
May 6th 2007, 03:43 AM
I read it in God's Holy Word. God put it in my heart.


So am I correct in saying that no human told you this?


I understand and I don't recommend that New Christians listen to me, but only those who seek the meat of the Word.


I was raised in a Christian home and have been a Christian for three years. That aside- why shouldn't new Christians listen?


My understanding agrees with Scripture, every true discovery of mankind, and History. It does not agree with the traditional view taught by the Jews, Catholics, or Archbishop Ussher.


So bring on the Scripture! No idea who Archbishop Ussher is, but... Are you suggesting that the rest of Christiandom has been decieved, and you alone, or perhaps you and a small group of beings are the only ones aware of this?


I believe that Gen 1:30 when EVERY animal eats green herbs for meat, is Prophecy. It will be fulfilled when Jesus returns to this Planet to set up His millenial reign. Beginning at Isa 11:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=11&verse=1&version=kjv#1) this Prophecy is fulfilled.

BTW, Science has discovered that some animals have always been carniverous and there has Never been a time in the History of this planet when ALL animals were vegetarians. God's Truth is the Truth in every way.

In Love,
Aman

May I ask what Noah fed the Lions for the time period that the arc's door was shut?

And BTW, Science also says that you and I have common ancestors with monkeys. I try not to rely on science to support or draw conclusions.

PS, Love right back at ya!:wave:

Saved7
May 6th 2007, 03:45 AM
It means red earth in the greek, or man, man kind in the hebrew.:saint:

Aman
May 6th 2007, 03:50 AM
Aman,
Would you kindly explain what you mean by the 6 ages, as opposed to 6 days? :confused I would like a better understanding of what you are suggesting so that I might be able to better discuss this with you.
But on the vegatarian diet, God specifically stated "after" the fall that now we may eat meat. So how does that fit in your 6 ages theory? :confused Do you suppose that maybe the carnivours were made that way because God knew what was to come?

BTW, It's good to have you aboard.:wave:

Dear Saved, Thanks for your kind words. I believe the Big Bang, which scientists tell us happened some 15 Billion years ago, happened on the 3rd Day, according to Gen 2:4-5 IF the dating of the BB is correct, then each Day or Age is some 5 Billion years in length.

The 6th Day began when the LORD made the beasts and fowl from the dust of the ground, and will end when this lost and dying world is Burned. ll Peter 3:10

I believe that Genesis Chapter 1 is an outline of all of the rest of Scripture. It is a "readers digest" of the complete History of the Creation of the Perfect Heaven, the New Heaven and Earth of Revelation 21.

I believe that God has but 7 Days and the 7th is Eternity when God will Cease Creating, for His 3rd Heaven will be Perfect.

In Love,
Aman

Saved7
May 6th 2007, 04:01 AM
Ok, I suppose I could see where you are coming from with this.
I have my own ideas on the creation as well as many other folks here. I suppose that this sort of discussion could get pretty deep, maybe next post along these lines should be placed in the apologetics forum or something along those lines.:saint:
As far as the light thing??? I guess you could go there with the big bang too. I know one thing though, I look at how God seperated the light from the darkness and made night and day times is one thing that I find interesting.
This is my view on that particular subject...
When the bible says that the earth was void and without form, that means that the earth had no real shape to it, therefore the sun and the darkness were blended together. Like when a person travels out to space, though it is light from the sun, it is still dark all around them. But on one side of the person or object in question the sunlight hits the one side and lights it up and stops at that point. But on the other side there is darkness where no light is hitting it. That's when the earth was made round, in order to seperate the light from the darkness, otherwise the light would just continue to travel through the dark space.
I hope I explained that well, it's more of an "object" type of lesson. Take a flash light outside or in a dark room and turn it on, then place your hand in the flow of the light, that's "kind of" what I am saying.
Imagine the photos of the astronauts when they do a space walk, though you can see the "space" cause it's light, it is dark at the same time.
ah well, I tried to make sense of what I can see in my head but putting it into words is hard.:giveup: :lol: :rolleyes:

Aman
May 6th 2007, 04:09 AM
So am I correct in saying that no human told you this?

Dear Dune, I used to believe in evolution. My wife became a Christian and I read Genesis to prove her wrong. I recognized that Genesis did NOT say what I had been told it said. ie. Adam was made on the 3rd Day, but was Created in God's Image on the 6th. I have spent the last 30 years studying Genesis.

I was raised in a Christian home and have been a Christian for three years. That aside- why shouldn't new Christians listen?

I have No interest in causing anyone to lose their faith in whatever program is being taught them by the local church. I prefer to speak with mature Christians who realize that what I post is controversial.

So bring on the Scripture! No idea who Archbishop Ussher is, but... Are you suggesting that the rest of Christiandom has been decieved, and you alone, or perhaps you and a small group of beings are the only ones aware of this?

In 1650 Archbishop James Ussher dated the morning of the Creation at 4004 BC, some 6,000 years ago. This information was placed in the margin of the KJV and was Not removed until some 300 years later in the 1950s. I do Not agree with this date, and I do Not believe it can be supported by Scripture.

I am a member of the body of Jesus Christ, the Church. I claim no other credentials.

May I ask what Noah fed the Lions for the time period that the arc's door was shut?

Scripture does Not tell us that Noah brought Lions to this Planet.

And BTW, Science also says that you and I have common ancestors with monkeys. I try not to rely on science to support or draw conclusions.

Every Human being on this Planet has the DNA of a prehistoric woman who lived some 150,000 years ago inside their body, AND the Human intelligence of Adam, who was Never on this Planet. Science has falsely supposed that we became Human naturally, but has NO evidence to support this False conclusion.

PS, Love right back at ya!:wave:

Thanks, God is Love.

In Love,
Aman

Eaglenester
May 6th 2007, 04:15 AM
Aman:

You are ignoring an IMPORTANT rule of interpretation of Scripture.

CONTEXT

Yahweh choses the words He used, INCLUDING the tense (past, present, future) for a REASON - one of which is so people can't go off on a wierd tangent.

Dunedanranger
May 6th 2007, 04:38 AM
Dear Dune, I used to believe in evolution. My wife became a Christian and I read Genesis to prove her wrong. I recognized that Genesis did NOT say what I had been told it said. ie. Adam was made on the 3rd Day, but was Created in God's Image on the 6th. I have spent the last 30 years studying Genesis.

What is your point?


I have No interest in causing anyone to lose their faith in whatever program is being taught them by the local church. I prefer to speak with mature Christians who realize that what I post is controversial.

Whether or not I'm a mature Christian is debateable- but I do realize that this is controversial. That's why I'm not saying "amen brother!"


In 1650 Archbishop James Ussher dated the morning of the Creation at 4004 BC, some 6,000 years ago. This information was placed in the margin of the KJV and was Not removed until some 300 years later in the 1950s. I do Not agree with this date, and I do Not believe it can be supported by Scripture.

I am a member of the body of Jesus Christ, the Church. I claim no other credentials.


Let me say this more clearly: why are you the first person I've ever heard say this?


Scripture does Not tell us that Noah brought Lions to this Planet.

In fact, Scripture does not tell us that lions are from another planet at all- or if they do, please show the ones you refer to.


Every Human being on this Planet has the DNA of a prehistoric woman who lived some 150,000 years ago inside their body, AND the Human intelligence of Adam, who was Never on this Planet. Science has falsely supposed that we became Human naturally, but has NO evidence to support this False conclusion.


And every male human being can be linked back to a single male by a certain characteristic of the Y chromosome, but what relevence does any of that that have to what you are trying to say? And why wouldn't Adam have been on earth? And what exaclty do you mean when you say "became" human?

Aman
May 6th 2007, 03:49 PM
Ok, I suppose I could see where you are coming from with this.
I have my own ideas on the creation as well as many other folks here. I suppose that this sort of discussion could get pretty deep, maybe next post along these lines should be placed in the apologetics forum or something along those lines.:saint:
As far as the light thing??? I guess you could go there with the big bang too. I know one thing though, I look at how God seperated the light from the darkness and made night and day times is one thing that I find interesting.
This is my view on that particular subject...
When the bible says that the earth was void and without form, that means that the earth had no real shape to it, therefore the sun and the darkness were blended together. Like when a person travels out to space, though it is light from the sun, it is still dark all around them. But on one side of the person or object in question the sunlight hits the one side and lights it up and stops at that point. But on the other side there is darkness where no light is hitting it. That's when the earth was made round, in order to seperate the light from the darkness, otherwise the light would just continue to travel through the dark space.
I hope I explained that well, it's more of an "object" type of lesson. Take a flash light outside or in a dark room and turn it on, then place your hand in the flow of the light, that's "kind of" what I am saying.
Imagine the photos of the astronauts when they do a space walk, though you can see the "space" cause it's light, it is dark at the same time.
ah well, I tried to make sense of what I can see in my head but putting it into words is hard.:giveup: :lol: :rolleyes:

Dear Saved, I believe the ground was without form and empty because there was No Potter to mold the Clay. Darkness or death was also on the face of the deep. The elements of the heaven (air) the earth (dust) and the deep (water) were contaminated with Death, and God brooded on the face of the deep. How could He have a Perfect Heaven if He used these elements to build it?

God's first recorded words were Let there be Light. I believe that Jesus is that Light and came forth from the Father when He spoke His first words. The invisible Spirit of God became physical and the Only Begotten of the Father entered the Physical world.

Just before His Crucifiction, Jesus speaks of this time:

And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine Own Self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was. Jhn 17:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn017.html#5)

The first Heaven was made on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:6-8 Jesus is speaking of a time Before the world was, the 1st Day. Jesus is the Light of the first Day, He is the Light of Today, and He will provide the Light of Heaven, which has no need for the Sun nor Moon to shine there, for the Lamb is the Light thereof.

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Rev 21:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev021.html#23)

In Love,
Aman

Aman
May 6th 2007, 04:00 PM
Aman:

You are ignoring an IMPORTANT rule of interpretation of Scripture.

CONTEXT

Yahweh choses the words He used, INCLUDING the tense (past, present, future) for a REASON - one of which is so people can't go off on a wierd tangent.

Dear Eagle, Genesis is written in Hebrew "Perfect" tense. The words can be past, present or Future. I believe ALL of Scripture is written as past tense, to God, Who sees the end from the beginning.

Genesis Chapter 1 is the Complete History of ALL of the Creation, including events which are yet to happen, at the end of the present 6th Day or age. In Heaven, we will see that God knew our History before He began His Creation.

In Love,
Aman

Aman
May 6th 2007, 04:34 PM
Dear Dune, I used to believe in evolution. My wife became a Christian and I read Genesis to prove her wrong. I recognized that Genesis did NOT say what I had been told it said. ie. Adam was made on the 3rd Day, but was Created in God's Image on the 6th. I have spent the last 30 years studying Genesis.
What is your point?

Dear Dune, Adam, like all men, was first born Physically, on the 3rd Day. This gives him preemminence or first place with God. Adam was Created in God's Image on the 6th Day, at the SAME time as Eve. Gen 1:27 and Gen 5:1-2

Adam and Eve were Created in God's Image AFTER Cain killed Abel. Gen 5:1-2. IOW, A&E were born again.


Quote:
I have No interest in causing anyone to lose their faith in whatever program is being taught them by the local church. I prefer to speak with mature Christians who realize that what I post is controversial.
Whether or not I'm a mature Christian is debateable- but I do realize that this is controversial. That's why I'm not saying "amen brother!"


Quote:
In 1650 Archbishop James Ussher dated the morning of the Creation at 4004 BC, some 6,000 years ago. This information was placed in the margin of the KJV and was Not removed until some 300 years later in the 1950s. I do Not agree with this date, and I do Not believe it can be supported by Scripture.

I am a member of the body of Jesus Christ, the Church. I claim no other credentials.
Let me say this more clearly: why are you the first person I've ever heard say this?

Only an former evolutionist could recognize that Genesis IS telling us How and When we changed from prehistoric to Human. Most evolutionists do Not believe in Jesus, but I do, so I seek to find God's Truth which MUST agree with every other discovered Truth....and it does.



Quote:
Scripture does Not tell us that Noah brought Lions to this Planet.
In fact, Scripture does not tell us that lions are from another planet at all- or if they do, please show the ones you refer to.

God told Noah to bring 2 of each sort of Flesh. Gen 6:19 The following tells us of the different sorts of flesh:

All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds. 1Cr 15:39 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr015.html#39)

The next verse AFTER God told Noah to take 2 of each sort of flesh lists the SAME 4 kinds of flesh that Noah is to take on the Ark.

Gen 6:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&verse=20&version=kjv#20)Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every [sort] shall come unto thee, to keep [them] alive.

Some critics say that fish is not listed. I say that the Only classification one can make is that fish are classified as having "creeping things" flesh.

Conclusion: God told Noah to take 2 of each sort of flesh. Noah could have brought 8 creatues and fulfilled God's wishes.




Quote:
Every Human being on this Planet has the DNA of a prehistoric woman who lived some 150,000 years ago inside their body, AND the Human intelligence of Adam, who was Never on this Planet. Science has falsely supposed that we became Human naturally, but has NO evidence to support this False conclusion.
And every male human being can be linked back to a single male by a certain characteristic of the Y chromosome, but what relevence does any of that that have to what you are trying to say? And why wouldn't Adam have been on earth? And what exaclty do you mean when you say "became" human?

The 1st Heaven or Universe was made on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:6-8 The other HeavenS were made at the beginning of the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4-5 The 1st Heaven was destroyed, totally and completely in the Flood. The present 2nd Heaven will be Burned. ll Peter 3:10 The New Heaven and Earth spoken of in ll Corinthians 12:2, the 3rd Heaven is the object of the Creation, and the Future Heaven for all believers in Jesus Christ.

In Love,
Aman

shootingdead
May 6th 2007, 11:12 PM
I suppose you could say that I am a really young Young Earther.please can you explain what you mean by this?


i lean towards a creationist view but have difficulty understanding how light from stars could have reached our planet in 6,000 years when they are billions of light years away. was the light from the stars created as if it had travelled a long distance? was the speed of light faster in the past?


I prefer to speak with mature Christians who realize that what I post is controversial.i understand this.

Saved7
May 6th 2007, 11:19 PM
Aman,


I have to say you have some pretty interesting concepts here, and I will enjoy reading your posts, I'm sure I will learn something.:)

Aman
May 6th 2007, 11:34 PM
[quote=shootingdead;1252052]please can you explain what you mean by this?

Dear Shooting, Just making a play on words, but I do see ALL of the Creation as happening within 6 of God's Days. I believe the morning of the Creation was some 25 Billion years ago in man's time, but less than 6 Days ago in God's time.


i lean towards a creationist view but have difficulty understanding how light from stars could have reached our planet in 6,000 years when they are billions of light years away. was the light from the stars created as if it had travelled a long distance? was the speed of light faster in the past?

Stars are Billions of light years away, and there is Nothing in Scripture which tells us that the Creation began just 6,000 years ago. In fact, Noah arrived on this Planet 10,000 years ago. Here is a map showing the expansion of Human civilization on this Planet. Noah brought the Human intelligence of Adam to this Planet of innocent beings.

Map of the Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE. (http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map00-fc.html)

In Love,
Aman

Aman
May 6th 2007, 11:38 PM
Aman,


I have to say you have some pretty interesting concepts here, and I will enjoy reading your posts, I'm sure I will learn something.:)

Dear Saved, Thank you for your kind words. God's Holy Word is Awesome. His Truth tells us of our Future from the beginning.

In Love,
Aman

Duane Morse
May 6th 2007, 11:38 PM
[quote=shootingdead;1252052] In fact, Noah arrived on this Planet 10,000 years ago. Noah brought the Human intelligence of Adam to this Planet of innocent beings.

So, you think Noah is ET, and Adam was not created on the planet we currently occupy?

Aman
May 6th 2007, 11:48 PM
[quote=Aman;1252068]
So, you think Noah is ET, and Adam was not created on the planet we currently occupy?

Dear Duane, The 1st Heaven, which was made on the 2nd Day (Gen 1:6-8) was destroyed totally and completely in the waters of a Flood. The 1st Heaven or Universe was made in the midst or middle of the water and water surrounded it. Adam's Earth was dissolved according to Isaiah.

Isa 24:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=24&verse=19&version=kjv#19)The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

The Scoffers of the last days will not believe this, and they will not believe that our Universe will be Burned. ll Peter 3:5-7

In Love,
Aman

TEITZY
May 6th 2007, 11:49 PM
i lean towards a creationist view but have difficulty understanding how light from stars could have reached our planet in 6,000 years when they are billions of light years away. was the light from the stars created as if it had travelled a long distance? was the speed of light faster in the past?


Here (http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/1616) is an article discussing a Creationist model which explains how we might see light from distant stars in a young universe. Note that this model uses the scientific theory of General Relativity as the basis for its conclusions. This (http://www.creationontheweb.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter5.pdf) article is less technical but explains the overall concept.

Cheers
Leigh

TEITZY
May 7th 2007, 12:02 AM
Dear Duane, The 1st Heaven, which was made on the 2nd Day (Gen 1:6-8) was destroyed totally and completely in the waters of a Flood. The 1st Heaven or Universe was made in the midst or middle of the water and water surrounded it. Adam's Earth was dissolved according to Isaiah.

Isa 24:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=24&verse=19&version=kjv#19)The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

The Scoffers of the last days will not believe this, and they will not believe that our Universe will be Burned. ll Peter 3:5-7

In Love,
Aman

Well actually, the scoffers of the last days will forget or deny that God once sent a global flood to destroy all mankind in judgment. Essentially the scoffers (primarily apostate Christians) deny the historicity of Genesis and take its plain literal meaning and apply their own interpretation to it. Quite frankly from what I've seen, you've been doing a far bit of tinkering with the Genesis account yourself. After 30 years of study all you've managed to do is turn Genesis into some science fiction novel!

Cheers
Leigh

Aman
May 7th 2007, 12:07 AM
Here (http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/1616) is an article discussing a Creationist model which explains how we might see light from distant stars in a young universe. Note that this model uses the scientific theory of General Relativity as the basis for its conclusions. This (http://www.creationontheweb.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter5.pdf) article is less technical but explains the overall concept.

Cheers
Leigh

Dear Leigh, I am an Old Earth Creationist, I guess. I believe the morning of the Creation was 6 Days ago to God, but some 25 Billion years ago in man's time. Man's time is governed by the movement of the Stars within our Universe, but God is beyond our small world and is Not subject to the movements of the heavenly bodies within our world.

In Love,
Aman

Aman
May 7th 2007, 12:15 AM
Well actually, the scoffers of the last days will forget or deny that God once sent a global flood to destroy all mankind in judgment. Essentially the scoffers (primarily apostate Christians) deny the historicity of Genesis and take its plain literal meaning and apply their own interpretation to it. Quite frankly from what I've seen, you've been doing a far bit of tinkering with the Genesis account yourself. After 30 years of study all you've managed to do is turn Genesis into some science fiction novel!

Cheers
Leigh

Dear Leigh, I didn't have to "tinker" with Genesis, since the traditional account did enough of that, long before I was born. My understanding agrees with Scripture, Science, and History.

I welcome specific questions concerning my understanding and would prefer that to a general put down of my views. I support what I write with Scripture. If it reads like Science Fiction, then it reflects the Supreme Intelligence of our God whose Holy Word is far above any man's tradition.

In Love,
Aman

Dunedanranger
May 7th 2007, 03:49 AM
Dear Dune, Adam, like all men, was first born Physically, on the 3rd Day. This gives him preemminence or first place with God. Adam was Created in God's Image on the 6th Day, at the SAME time as Eve. Gen 1:27 and Gen 5:1-2


So if you think each Biblical day represents an "age," how was the human race propagated in ages 3-5? We also know from Revelation that Man's number is six, presumabley because he was he was made on the sixth day.


Adam and Eve were Created in God's Image AFTER Cain killed Abel. Gen 5:1-2. IOW, A&E were born again.

So what is the Image of God to you? Is it physical appearance, conscious thought, or something else?


Only an former evolutionist could recognize that Genesis IS telling us How and When we changed from prehistoric to Human. Most evolutionists do Not believe in Jesus, but I do, so I seek to find God's Truth which MUST agree with every other discovered Truth....and it does.


First of all, God's Truth doesn't have to agree with anything. It stands indepentdent of anything man says. We also know from the Bible that every man is a liar. Moreover, Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no man comes to the Father but by Him. It also sounds to me like you are still clinging to evolution. Besides, if Noah was the first human to inhabit the earth and bring "Human Intelligence of Adam," why would there be any evidence of "prehistoric" peoples here on earth?


Scripture does Not tell us that Noah brought Lions to this Planet.
In fact, Scripture does not tell us that lions are from another planet at all- or if they do, please show the ones you refer to.

God told Noah to bring 2 of each sort of Flesh. Gen 6:19 The following tells us of the different sorts of flesh:

All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds. 1Cr 15:39 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr015.html#39)

The next verse AFTER God told Noah to take 2 of each sort of flesh lists the SAME 4 kinds of flesh that Noah is to take on the Ark.

Gen 6:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&verse=20&version=kjv#20)Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every [sort] shall come unto thee, to keep [them] alive.

Some critics say that fish is not listed. I say that the Only classification one can make is that fish are classified as having "creeping things" flesh.

Conclusion: God told Noah to take 2 of each sort of flesh. Noah could have brought 8 creatues and fulfilled God's wishes.


You still haven't shown why you think lions were not originally from this planet. It actually sounds like you're trying to explain to me what lions would have eaten... And I'm wondering about the intelligence of these critics you mentioned: we're talking about a flood; for what reason would Noah need to bring fish on a boat?


The 1st Heaven or Universe was made on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:6-8 The other HeavenS were made at the beginning of the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4-5 The 1st Heaven was destroyed, totally and completely in the Flood. The present 2nd Heaven will be Burned. ll Peter 3:10 The New Heaven and Earth spoken of in ll Corinthians 12:2, the 3rd Heaven is the object of the Creation, and the Future Heaven for all believers in Jesus Christ.


Ok, you and I are definately reading different books. The words "Heaven" and "Universe" are not interchangable.

For the third day, the Bible states:


9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.


I see no "other HeavenS." I see the Earth being created: God commands the waters under heaven to come together in one place so that there could be dry ground, and it happened. Then God calls the dry ground Earth, and the waters He calls Seas- and it was good. Do you honestly see any "other HeavenS" being created there? In fact, the only mention of heaven there is in "Let the waters under heaven be gathered..." Hmm... I don't think "Let the waters under universe be gathered..." makes very much sense, but you claim that the "1st Heaven" is also a Universe.

Now if the "1st Heaven or Universe" was "totally and completely" destroyed in the Flood, how were there any survivors? Also, my Bible doesn't say that the "1st Heaven or Universe" was destroyed in the Flood. It says:


And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.


Notice that? Upon the earth... Under heaven... We know that the dry ground God created on the third day He called earth. What God made on the second day He called heaven. http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29 The earth is were Noah is already at. Men were on earth, according to Genesis 6:1,


And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,


They were on earth-

God was bringing a "flood of waters upon the earth." Not on the "1st Heaven or Universe," but "under heaven." Under the thing He made on the second day, and yet on the thing He made on the third day.

Besides that, this can't be heaven, much less a second one. Do you know why? Because if this is heaven, Jesus would be speaking nonsense when He says, "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." My God is not speaking nonsense.

In Matthew 24:35, Jesus says,

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

He says heaven and earth. Not, "the second heaven shall pass away."

Oh, and let us have a look at 2 Peter 3:7


But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


He didn't say, "But the second heaven, which is now, by the same word is kept in store, reseverved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

He uses the words heaven and earth.

So lets see: All life, except for those on the arc, on earth under heaven, was eliminated. We are now on the same earth, and under the same heaven. This earth and heaven will be given to fire, and then a new heaven and earth will be created. No 1st, 2nd, or 3rd heaven ever mentioned. All this, and yet you still haven't explained what relevence the genetics have.

Your interpretation of the Bible makes me shudder. You take the Word on and off like a coat.

threebigrocks
May 7th 2007, 02:27 PM
Biography:
I am a man who debates Creation vs Evolution on the web. I support what I write with Scripture and show that God's Holy Word agrees with Every true discovery of man. I have debated Evols for more than 10 years.


Aman, welcome to the board. Please start a thread in introductions and introduce yourself when you have a moment.

Also, please be certain to read the specific rules which are posted here in the Apologetics and Evangelism forum for this forum.

Your views are indeed interesting, yet as dunedanranger pointed out well I do not see how these views are biblical. Time does not exist in heaven, things are only a progression in God's plan with no beginning or no end eternal. If God is eternal, how can we place time on something that defies time?

There is only one heaven, and that is where the Father is. Mankind does not exist in a heaven now on this earth, nor have we ever done so except for that brief moment before sin entered the world.

We will return to heaven on earth someday, but right now we are far from heavenly. Why else would we be told explicitly to remove ourselves from the ways of the world, to be in this world but not act in the ways of it? If this was a heaven, wouldn't we be told to conform to it?

To persevere, to run the race with our heart and eye set on the prize of eternal life? If there were heaven, why would be have to persevere?

Aman
May 7th 2007, 02:35 PM
Quote:
Dear Dune, Adam, like all men, was first born Physically, on the 3rd Day. This gives him preeminence or first place with God. Adam was Created in God's Image on the 6th Day, at the SAME time as Eve. Gen 1:27 and Gen 5:1-2
So if you think each Biblical day represents an "age," how was the human race propagated in ages 3-5? We also know from Revelation that Man's number is six, presumabley because he was he was made on the sixth day.

Dear Dune, Adam was with the LORD from Day 3 to Day 6. Gen 2:18 shows that Adam was ALONE at the beginning of the 6th Day.

Today is the 6th Day. It is the Day of Salvation, and ALL of mankind has lived and died on this Day or Age. Tomorrow is the Age of Joy, the 7th Day, which has no end.



Quote:
Adam and Eve were Created in God's Image AFTER Cain killed Abel. Gen 5:1-2. IOW, A&E were born again.
So what is the Image of God to you? Is it physical appearance, conscious thought, or something else?

God (Elohim) is an Invisible Spirit. In Jesus is ALL of the fulness of the Godhead (Elohim) Bodily or Physically. God is One.


Quote:
Only an former evolutionist could recognize that Genesis IS telling us How and When we changed from prehistoric to Human. Most evolutionists do Not believe in Jesus, but I do, so I seek to find God's Truth which MUST agree with every other discovered Truth....and it does.
First of all, God's Truth doesn't have to agree with anything.

I agree, but we are interested in knowing God's Truth. I find Nothing in Scripture which disagrees with true Science or History.

It stands indepentdent of anything man says. We also know from the Bible that every man is a liar. Moreover, Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no man comes to the Father but by Him. It also sounds to me like you are still clinging to evolution.

That's because I seek to find agreement between God's Holy Word and the discoveries of Science. Wait until you hear the complete story before you form a conclusion.

Besides, if Noah was the first human to inhabit the earth and bring "Human Intelligence of Adam," why would there be any evidence of "prehistoric" peoples here on earth?

On the 5th Day, God created "Every living creature that moveth" from the water. Gen 1:21 Cain married a woman on the 1st Earth and this verse explains where she came from. On this Planet, Science has discovered that every living creature came from the water, exactly as Gen 1:21 tells us.

When the sons of God married the daughters of Adam, mighty men of old were the Offspring. Gen 6:4 I believe these men were the Humans of the 1st Earth. They were a combination of men created from the water AND Adam's descendants. Adam was the 1st Human who, like God, came to know good and evil.

On this Planet, life came from the water, and the sons of God were already here when Noah arrived. Noah's grandsons, like Cain, had No one to marry except the descendants of the sons of God. As on the 1st Earth, the combination of the descendants of the sons of God and Adam's descendants produced Humans. Human civilization can be traced to the arrival of Noah.

Today, ALL Humans contain the DNA of Mitochondrial Eve, a prehistoric woman who lived some 150,000 years ago AND the Human intelligence of Adam, the first Human.


Quote:
Scripture does Not tell us that Noah brought Lions to this Planet.
In fact, Scripture does not tell us that lions are from another planet at all- or if they do, please show the ones you refer to.

God told Noah to bring 2 of each sort of Flesh. Gen 6:19 The following tells us of the different sorts of flesh:

All flesh not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds. 1Cr 15:39 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr015.html#39)

The next verse AFTER God told Noah to take 2 of each sort of flesh lists the SAME 4 kinds of flesh that Noah is to take on the Ark.

Gen 6:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&verse=20&version=kjv#20)Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every [sort] shall come unto thee, to keep [them] alive.

Some critics say that fish is not listed. I say that the Only classification one can make is that fish are classified as having "creeping things" flesh.

Conclusion: God told Noah to take 2 of each sort of flesh. Noah could have brought 8 creatues and fulfilled God's wishes.

You still haven't shown why you think lions were not originally from this planet.

Lions could be from this Planet OR they could have had their origin on Adam's Earth. I tend to believe that Lions came from the water, on this Planet, since I believe the animals on the Ark were those creatures made by the Hands of the LORD.

It actually sounds like you're trying to explain to me what lions would have eaten... And I'm wondering about the intelligence of these critics you mentioned: we're talking about a flood; for what reason would Noah need to bring fish on a boat?

[I]Noah was told to bring each sort of Flesh. Gen 6:19 He could have brought 2 Goldfish. Personally, I believe Noah brought other representatives of "creeping things" instead of Fish, which were here when Noah arrived.



Quote:
The 1st Heaven or Universe was made on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:6-8 The other HeavenS were made at the beginning of the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4-5 The 1st Heaven was destroyed, totally and completely in the Flood. The present 2nd Heaven will be Burned. ll Peter 3:10 The New Heaven and Earth spoken of in ll Corinthians 12:2, the 3rd Heaven is the object of the Creation, and the Future Heaven for all believers in Jesus Christ.
Ok, you and I are definately reading different books. The words "Heaven" and "Universe" are not interchangable.

For the third day, the Bible states:


Quote:
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
I see no "other HeavenS."

Read Gen 2:4-5 which tells us the other HeavenS were made BEFORE the plants and herbs.

I see the Earth being created: God commands the waters under heaven to come together in one place so that there could be dry ground, and it happened. Then God calls the dry ground Earth, and the waters He calls Seas- and it was good. Do you honestly see any "other HeavenS" being created there?

No. I see the other HeavenS being detailed in Gen 2:4-5. Genesis 1 is the complete History of the creation of the Perfect Heaven. Gen 2:1-3 tells us of the events after the Creation is Complete.

Beginning at Gen 2:4, we are taken BACK to the 3rd Day and given additional details of the 3rd Day, namely the formation of Adam from the dust of the ground.

In fact, the only mention of heaven there is in "Let the waters under heaven be gathered..." Hmm... I don't think "Let the waters under universe be gathered..." makes very much sense, but you claim that the "1st Heaven" is also a Universe.

Genesis 1:6-8 tells us of the formation of the 1st Firmament, which God calls "Heaven" in Gen 1:8 The 1st Firmament was placed in the midst or middle of the water and was totally and completely destroyed when the windows from on high were opened. Adam's Earth was inside the Firmament just as we are inside our Universe.

Now if the "1st Heaven or Universe" was "totally and completely" destroyed in the Flood, how were there any survivors?

Noah, his family, and seven of the clean and two of the unclean animals were the only survivors of the 1st Universe. They were brought to this Planet some 10,000 years ago. History confirms this. Here is a map of the evidence of Noah's arrival.
Map of the Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE. (http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map00-fc.html)


Also, my Bible doesn't say that the "1st Heaven or Universe" was destroyed in the Flood. It says:


Quote:
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Notice that? Upon the earth... Under heaven... We know that the dry ground God created on the third day He called earth. What God made on the second day He called heaven. http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20ki ng%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29

The word "Earth" in Hebrew is Ground. The word could be applied to the present Earth or the 1st Earth. It could also be applied to the 3rd Heaven. Heaven in Hebrew is Air and could be applied to either of the 3 Universes God made.

The earth is were Noah is already at. Men were on earth, according to Genesis 6:1,


Quote:
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
They were on earth-

Correct. This verse is speaking of men on the 1st Earth. Men are also on the present 2nd Earth. Noah lived 600 years on the 1st Earth and 300 years on the present one.


God was bringing a "flood of waters upon the earth." Not on the "1st Heaven or Universe," but "under heaven." Under the thing He made on the second day, and yet on the thing He made on the third day.

Besides that, this can't be heaven, much less a second one. Do you know why? Because if this is heaven, Jesus would be speaking nonsense when He says, "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." My God is not speaking nonsense.

I agree. God's will must be done in ALL of the Creation. The 1st Earth is no more, and our Earth will be Burned. I'm happy to know that there are New Heavens and New Earth in the 3rd Heaven.

In Matthew 24:35, Jesus says,

Quote:
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
He says heaven and earth. Not, "the second heaven shall pass away."

God hides His Truth from unbelievers, so that only those who have been born Spiritually can understand. What I post is not for new Christians but for those who desire the meat of the Word.

Oh, and let us have a look at 2 Peter 3:7


Quote:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
He didn't say, "But the second heaven, which is now, by the same word is kept in store, reseverved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

God says this, emphasis mine:

2Pe 3:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Pe&chapter=3&verse=6&version=kjv#6)Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

The world (Greek-Cosmos) that then was indicates that the 1st Universe is No more.

This verse says it more clearly.

2Pe 2:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Pe&chapter=2&verse=5&version=kjv#5)And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness,


He uses the words heaven and earth.

Heaven and Earth compose the Cosmos.


So lets see: All life, except for those on the arc, on earth under heaven, was eliminated. We are now on the same earth, and under the same heaven. This earth and heaven will be given to fire, and then a new heaven and earth will be created. No 1st, 2nd, or 3rd heaven ever mentioned. All this, and yet you still haven't explained what relevence the genetics have.

Noah's grandsons brought the Human intelligence of Adam to this Planet where the sons of God were created from the water, at the same time the sons of God were created from the water, on Adam's Earth. That's why we contain the DNA of prehistoric man AND the Human intelligence of Adam.

Today's Science falsely assumes that we Evolved our Human intelligence from Mindless Nature. We did Not. Godless Evols, who do Not believe God, do Not know what to say to this view. They have No evidence of what they are force feeding our children in Public Schools. Evols are teaching their "beliefs" or Religion to our children. Such teaching is against the Constitution.

For 10 years, I have tried in vain to get just one Evol to tell us How and When we changed from prehistoric to Human, or to tell us an older Human Civilization than that which happened just South of the mountains of Ararat.

All have failed, and NONE has told us of an older Human civilization than that built by Noah's descendants.


Your interpretation of the Bible makes me shudder. You take the Word on and off like a coat.

You remind me of me when I first read Genesis 1 for what it says, instead of what I had been told it says. Tomorrow, on the 7th Day, we will all learn the Truth from Jesus, Who was there in the beginning. God bless you my brother.

In Love,
Aman