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VerticalReality
May 7th 2007, 05:57 PM
Recently Toolman and I were having a discussion on divine health, and Toolman made some very true observations about the three parts of man that are to be perfected. The spirit is justified by faith and made perfect, the soul is sanctified daily, and the body is to be glorified when resurrected. Toolman was basically using this biblical truth as evidence that the body will get sick regardless of our faith because it is cursed to die. He was basically stating, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, that since man is in a fallen world and this body is cursed to die then it will get sick regardless of our faith.

I was having this conversation with another individual who also walks in divine health and he brought up an interesting point regarding death. Toolman basically stated that death is the reason this body cannot walk in divine health because it is natural for the body to decay and die due to sickness, disease and the like. While all that sounds reasonable enough judging by our natural surroundings, this individual I was speaking with brought up an interesting point that I hadn't thought about before when Toolman and I were discussing it. I had read this passage of Scripture repeatedly in the past, but I had never really given this much thought. However, to get to the point, it would seem that by this Scripture that even our physical death could be overcome through faith.



Hebrews 11:5-6
By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.


Now this is pretty impressive, IMO. Apparently, due to Enoch's faith, he was taken by God without ever seeing his physical death. Now I realize that this is extremely rare considering Enoch and Elijah are the only two throughout Scripture that were taken before death. And I also understand that it is generally understood that it is appointed unto man once to die. However, Enoch shows that by faith it is possible nonetheless. This got me to thinking, however. I'm wondering if this will ever happen again.

Also, this says even more to me about when Jesus stated the following . . .



Matthew 17:20
So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.





Mark 9:23
Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”



Now, I'm sure many view this as radical. However, a radical faith seems to get some very extraordinary things brought to reality.

OneStep
May 7th 2007, 07:32 PM
With Enoch and Elijah not having a physical death "yet" tends to lean me towards them as being the two witness who do die.
I am not so sure how many, in this day and age, could even have that kind of faith. Really have not seen ANYONE beat death in my lifetime, let alone, even being totally healthy all their life.

Steve M
May 7th 2007, 07:37 PM
All things are possible to him who believes?

And yet, we're told some things are impossible for God?

I dunno... that doesn't sound like it quite adds up to me.

OneStep
May 7th 2007, 07:45 PM
Who said? things are impossile for God???? :o

Theophilus
May 7th 2007, 07:58 PM
Who said? things are impossile for God???? :o

Sho nuff! It's impossible for God to:

Die
Sin
Be impure
Be unjust
Be unrighteous
Be unholy


;)

OneStep
May 7th 2007, 08:07 PM
Oh so silly me.....Now why didn't "I" think of that....:P

Toolman
May 7th 2007, 09:04 PM
Recently Toolman and I were having a discussion on divine health, and Toolman made some very true observations about the three parts of man that are to be perfected. The spirit is justified by faith and made perfect, the soul is sanctified daily, and the body is to be glorified when resurrected. Toolman was basically using this biblical truth as evidence that the body will get sick regardless of our faith because it is cursed to die. He was basically stating, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, that since man is in a fallen world and this body is cursed to die then it will get sick regardless of our faith.

VR,

Your synopsis of what I believe in this area is very close to what I do believe.

The only clarification I would add is the following:

1) Dying is sickness. The body dies because it ages and decays (this would not be the case without sin, it is sin that brings death). Man was created to mature, not to decay.
Therefore death and sickness are caused by the same root which is a world that is fallen because of Adam's sin and the sin of mankind. In that since, yes, everyone gets "sick", i.e. die.

2) God can and IMO does still give us healing of disease. He can do this through both supernatural methods (the miraculous) or through giving man wisdom of natural resources (medicine, surgery, etc.).
There is no guarantee of being healed and God sovereignly decides, as to His purpose and plan, what is needed for each situation.

3) In a sense, God does save us from sickness in our ongoing sanctification. For instance because I have come to Christ I no longer engage in pre/extra marital sex. Therefore, because of God's sanctifying work, I am, in a sense, saved from sickness. I just think that is an important aspect of sanctification that is worth pointing out.


I was having this conversation with another individual who also walks in divine health and he brought up an interesting point regarding death. Toolman basically stated that death is the reason this body cannot walk in divine health because it is natural for the body to decay and die due to sickness, disease and the like. While all that sounds reasonable enough judging by our natural surroundings, this individual I was speaking with brought up an interesting point that I hadn't thought about before when Toolman and I were discussing it. I had read this passage of Scripture repeatedly in the past, but I had never really given this much thought. However, to get to the point, it would seem that by this Scripture that even our physical death could be overcome through faith.



Now this is pretty impressive, IMO. Apparently, due to Enoch's faith, he was taken by God without ever seeing his physical death. Now I realize that this is extremely rare considering Enoch and Elijah are the only two throughout Scripture that were taken before death. And I also understand that it is generally understood that it is appointed unto man once to die. However, Enoch shows that by faith it is possible nonetheless. This got me to thinking, however. I'm wondering if this will ever happen again.

Also, this says even more to me about when Jesus stated the following . . .

Now, I'm sure many view this as radical. However, a radical faith seems to get some very extraordinary things brought to reality.

VR,

IMO, this is the absolute logical conclusion of the doctrine of "divine health" and why I harped on the relationship between sickness and death so often in the 2 threads where we discussed it.

I don't think there is another conclusion that can be had.

If both sickness AND death were destroyed at the cross/resurrection and physical health and life were provided at the cross/resurrection and divine physical health is provided in this life through faith then divine physical life (immortality) must also be provided.

Therefore the Christian, who believes on Christ, should never get sick and should never die. I don't see any other logical conclusion if you take the position all the way out to its end. That is why I continue to equate and relate them.

Obviously, I do not believe that to be the correct biblical doctrine, as I believe that divine health and immortality are granted in the resurrection and are not manifest at this time (though they are as sure as our justification).

Our bodies are redeemed, made incorrupt (no sickness) and immortal (no death) when we are raised as Christ was raised.
By faith we wait with patient endurance until that time, as Romans 8 points out.

Was Enoch's faith greater than Joseph's, Paul's, Peter's, Abraham's, etc.?
Or was it God's decision to keep Enoch (and Elijah) alive because of their faith in Him (not faith that He would keep them from dying but their faith in following and trusting Him).

Will the faith of that small number who are still alive at Christ's return (1 Thessalonians 4) be greater than that huge number of those who died in the Coliseum's of Rome, eaten alive by lion's and have been martyred throughout the centuries of the Church?

For me the answer is clear and I appreciate your post here and the discussion of it.

VerticalReality
May 7th 2007, 09:14 PM
2) God can and IMO does still give us healing of disease. He can do this through both supernatural methods (the miraculous) or through giving man wisdom of natural resources (medicine, surgery, etc.).
There is no guarantee of being healed and God sovereignly decides, as to His purpose and plan, what is needed for each situation.

Thanks for your opinions, Toolman. I did want to address this statement, however. If it is according to God's sovereign will whether or not someone receives healing, why would anyone seek healing of man-made methods if it is not God's will that they be healed? If it's God's will that someone be sick or disease-ridden, why do people go against His sovereign will and seek healing or comfort from these afflictions that God wants them to have? Being that it is God's will that we be sick or disabled in some form or fashion, shouldn't we accept His will for our life and not try to receive treatment or cure from such things that come against us? Are we not to always seek His perfect will for our life?

mikebr
May 7th 2007, 09:19 PM
VR,

Your synopsis of what I believe in this area is very close to what I do believe.

The only clarification I would add is the following:

1) Dying is sickness. The body dies because it ages and decays (this would not be the case without sin, it is sin that brings death). Man was created to mature, not to decay.
Therefore death and sickness are caused by the same root which is a world that is fallen because of Adam's sin and the sin of mankind. In that since, yes, everyone gets "sick", i.e. die.

2) God can and IMO does still give us healing of disease. He can do this through both supernatural methods (the miraculous) or through giving man wisdom of natural resources (medicine, surgery, etc.).
There is no guarantee of being healed and God sovereignly decides, as to His purpose and plan, what is needed for each situation.

3) In a sense, God does save us from sickness in our ongoing sanctification. For instance because I have come to Christ I no longer engage in pre/extra marital sex. Therefore, because of God's sanctifying work, I am, in a sense, saved from sickness. I just think that is an important aspect of sanctification that is worth pointing out.



VR,

IMO, this is the absolute logical conclusion of the doctrine of "divine health" and why I harped on the relationship between sickness and death so often in the 2 threads where we discussed it.

I don't think there is another conclusion that can be had.

If both sickness AND death were destroyed at the cross/resurrection and physical health and life were provided at the cross/resurrection and divine physical health is provided in this life through faith then divine physical life (immortality) must also be provided.

Therefore the Christian, who believes on Christ, should never get sick and should never die. I don't see any other logical conclusion if you take the position all the way out to its end. That is why I continue to equate and relate them.

Obviously, I do not believe that to be the correct biblical doctrine, as I believe that divine health and immortality are granted in the resurrection and are not manifest at this time (though they are as sure as our justification).

Our bodies are redeemed, made incorrupt (no sickness) and immortal (no death) when we are raised as Christ was raised.
By faith we wait with patient endurance until that time, as Romans 8 points out.

Was Enoch's faith greater than Joseph's, Paul's, Peter's, Abraham's, etc.?
Or was it God's decision to keep Enoch (and Elijah) alive because of their faith in Him (not faith that He would keep them from dying but their faith in following and trusting Him).

Will the faith of that small number who are still alive at Christ's return (1 Thessalonians 4) be greater than that huge number of those who died in the Coliseum's of Rome, eaten alive by lion's and have been martyred throughout the centuries of the Church?

For me the answer is clear and I appreciate your post here and the discussion of it.

Good Point. We often have misplaced faith. It ends up being faith in my faith and not faith in Jesus. I had a friend tell me one time that he had the faith to be healed but he also had the faith to stay sick if that's what God wanted.

Toolman
May 7th 2007, 09:20 PM
Thanks for your opinions, Toolman. I did want to address this statement, however. If it is according to God's sovereign will whether or not someone receives healing, why would anyone seek healing of man-made methods if it is not God's will that they be healed?

Perhaps I view medicine in a different light. I view it as a God given gift and not as a man-made thing.

It is God who gives man the wisdom for medicine. It is not man-made. Now man can abuse that as He does many of God's gifts but nonetheless the gift is from God.

It may be God's sovereign will for someone to take medicine for their diabetes or even more so to live a healthy lifestyle of moderation in food and vigorous exercise to prevent diabetes II.

VerticalReality
May 7th 2007, 09:29 PM
Perhaps I view medicine in a different light. I view it as a God given gift and not as a man-made thing.

It is God who gives man the wisdom for medicine. It is not man-made. Now man can abuse that as He does many of God's gifts but nonetheless the gift is from God.

It may be God's sovereign will for someone to take medicine for their diabetes or even more so to live a healthy lifestyle of moderation in food and vigorous exercise to prevent diabetes II.

It kind of sounds like you're saying that someone could earn God's complete healing if they would do a little more exercise, but instead He will prefer now that they take medicine and deal with the issue until they take His correction about exercising more.

Why did Jesus never advise anyone to take medicine instead of seeking Him for complete healing? In fact, the lady with the issue of blood wasted her entire livelihood seeking after cures from worldly physicians with absolutely nothing to show for it except for a worsened condition. However, by her faith she was made well.

Toolman
May 7th 2007, 10:18 PM
It kind of sounds like you're saying that someone could earn God's complete healing if they would do a little more exercise, but instead He will prefer now that they take medicine and deal with the issue until they take His correction about exercising more.

No, they will still die but exercise can profit a little. We don't earn anything from God, it is given by grace. That is my position.


Why did Jesus never advise anyone to take medicine instead of seeking Him for complete healing?

He did, through the apostle Paul for one. Paul advised Timothy to use wine for his stomach infirmities. This was recorded for our benefit.

Also, we have a progressive revelation on medicine. The modern "miracles" we have now were progressively given to man, by God, and were unavailable in other ages. Antibiotics alone would have saved countless lives in other ages.


In fact, the lady with the issue of blood wasted her entire livelihood seeking after cures from worldly physicians with absolutely nothing to show for it except for a worsened condition. However, by her faith she was made well.

As I said, man can abuse God's gifts (by putting trust in them apart from God) and God can choose to sovereignly heal as He wishes and can make someone blind for their lifetime so that the work of God might be displayed (John 9).

IMO, God doesn't fit in some neat little box of "if I have faith A then God responds with B". Contrary to that we trust God with whatever our situation, whether being eaten alive by lions or being blessed with abundance, we keep our eyes on Him and our future hope in the fullness of redemption.

cheech
May 7th 2007, 10:31 PM
I believe also that it depends on God's will and that no one is exempt from illness, not even Job, but the bible does speak about the body and health in the following passages and I'll add a bit in faith too:

1 John 5:14
This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

Proverbs 3:1-8
1 My son, do not forget my teaching, but keep my commands in your heart, 2 for they will prolong your life many years and bring you prosperity.
3 Let love and faithfulness never leave you; bind them around your neck,
write them on the tablet of your heart. 4 Then you will win favor and a good name in the sight of God and man. 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil. 8 This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones.

Proverbs 4:20-23 (Wisdom)
20 My son, pay attention to what I say; listen closely to my words.
21 Do not let them out of your sight, keep them within your heart;
22 for they are life to those who find them and health to a man's whole body. 23 Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life.

Proverbs 14:30
30 A heart at peace gives life to the body, but envy rots the bones.

Proverbs 16:24
Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones.

This verse even talks about the body and blood and why so many are weak and sick...is this spiritually, physically or both?

1 Cor 11:28-32
28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

Exodus 15:26
There the LORD made a decree and a law for them, and there he tested them. 26 He said, "If you listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you."

James 5:14-16


Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

I could go on but I won't :D. Some of the bible seems to point to sin as causing our illness. The mind, body, heart and soul is where we become sick. For example, unforgiveness can bring anger and hatred in the heart and impure thoughts to the mind. This can bring on depression, anxiety and such that effects the mind and body. The body can have physical ailments such as stomach problems, aches and pains and at worst can bring on heart problems due to stress.

The bible talks about what is needed to be healed and have a healthy body. It doesn't just consist of exercise and eating right, but it goes deeper...repenting of sins, forgiveness, taming the tongue, guarding the mind, loving your neighbor as yourself, etc. This all brings emotional and spiritual healing which is health for the body.

God most definitely can bring miraculous healing to our body, heart, soul and mind, but he also teaches us that when we follow his commandments and his words, we can live a long and healthy life. When we pollute our ourselves be it mentally or physically (our bodies being the temple of God), we will cause destruction and he will bring destruction:

1 Cor 3:16-17
16Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

As for medicine. I believe there are meds that are very good and in my opinion, if God doesn't want us to live, no amount of medication will keep us alive. It is only that it is God's will that we remain alive. God gave man the knowledge to create some of those meds, but he also gave us what we really need to remain healthy...his words. Even in times of trouble, his words will bring healing, if not to the body then to the spirit:

Psalm 34:17-20
17 The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears them; he delivers them from all their troubles.

18 The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. 19 A righteous man may have many troubles, but the LORD delivers him from them all; 20 he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.

The above points out that even the righteous will have troubles and that includes illness. With faith, the Lord will deliver us.

VerticalReality
May 7th 2007, 11:05 PM
He did, through the apostle Paul for one. Paul advised Timothy to use wine for his stomach infirmities. This was recorded for our benefit.

I wasn't talking about the issue with Timothy. I'm talking about in the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John that record the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ while he walked this earth in the form of a man. He performed countless healings and miracles during this time. Why didn't He instruct anyone to seek medical treatment from man-made means instead of from Himself during this time?


Also, we have a progressive revelation on medicine. The modern "miracles" we have now were progressively given to man, by God, and were unavailable in other ages. Antibiotics alone would have saved countless lives in other ages.

But don't you feel that if medicine was of God and it was His will that we comfort and cure ourselves with this instead of seeking Him, that He would have given mankind revelation on how to create the medication we have today a lot sooner than now? Do you believe it was His will that mankind should suffer with their afflictions for thousands of years before being given some sort of remedy?


As I said, man can abuse God's gifts (by putting trust in them apart from God) and God can choose to sovereignly heal as He wishes and can make someone blind for their lifetime so that the work of God might be displayed (John 9).

Another question . . .

How are we to know whether or not it is God's sovereign will for us to be healed? How are we to pray a prayer of faith if we don't know if we're going to be healed? It seems to me that if someone has the thought of, "maybe He will heal me but maybe He won't" running through their mind when they pray, that they will be like a wave of the sea tossed to and fro. How can you pray a prayer of faith without doubting when you don't know whether or not it is God's will that you be healed?

watchinginawe
May 7th 2007, 11:52 PM
Is Anything Impossible For Those Who Believe?
...
Now, I'm sure many view this as radical. However, a radical faith seems to get some very extraordinary things brought to reality.Commenting on just the face of it, this would seem to indicate that the only thing between man and God is belief. Or at the least that man can command God on their behalf.

Matthew 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

So first off, I think all would agree that man himself is not the "doer" so to speak, but rather God through man. This would right away limit the "impossible" to that within God's will. Man can't decide and believe within himself to simply not die. Man can not also obligate God against His will by faith or belief on His behalf.

I'm not sure exactly what my point is, but I wanted to deal with just the "shock value" of the statement of the thread.

VerticalReality
May 8th 2007, 12:40 AM
Commenting on just the face of it, this would seem to indicate that the only thing between man and God is belief. Or at the least that man can command God on their behalf.

Matthew 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

So first off, I think all would agree that man himself is not the "doer" so to speak, but rather God through man. This would right away limit the "impossible" to that within God's will. Man can't decide and believe within himself to simply not die. Man can not also obligate God against His will by faith or belief on His behalf.

I'm not sure exactly what my point is, but I wanted to deal with just the "shock value" of the statement of the thread.

Obviously, there is absolutely no arguing that. However, how are we to know God's will? Especially in regards to healing? I mean, if it is only by God's sovereign will that we are healed, how are we ever to pray a prayer of faith with no doubting if we don't know whether God wants to heal us or not?

In addition to that, my question then would be why does the Holy Spirit tell us through James that the sick should call the elders of the church to pray a prayer of faith to save them and make them well? Why would the Holy Spirit inspire James to make such a statement that encompasses all people when it might not be the Father's will for said sick people to be healed?

Stefen
May 8th 2007, 01:02 AM
Recently Toolman and I were having a discussion on divine health, and Toolman made some very true observations about the three parts of man that are to be perfected. The spirit is justified by faith and made perfect, the soul is sanctified daily, and the body is to be glorified when resurrected. Toolman was basically using this biblical truth as evidence that the body will get sick regardless of our faith because it is cursed to die. He was basically stating, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, that since man is in a fallen world and this body is cursed to die then it will get sick regardless of our faith.

I was having this conversation with another individual who also walks in divine health and he brought up an interesting point regarding death. Toolman basically stated that death is the reason this body cannot walk in divine health because it is natural for the body to decay and die due to sickness, disease and the like. While all that sounds reasonable enough judging by our natural surroundings, this individual I was speaking with brought up an interesting point that I hadn't thought about before when Toolman and I were discussing it. I had read this passage of Scripture repeatedly in the past, but I had never really given this much thought. However, to get to the point, it would seem that by this Scripture that even our physical death could be overcome through faith.



Now this is pretty impressive, IMO. Apparently, due to Enoch's faith, he was taken by God without ever seeing his physical death. Now I realize that this is extremely rare considering Enoch and Elijah are the only two throughout Scripture that were taken before death. And I also understand that it is generally understood that it is appointed unto man once to die. However, Enoch shows that by faith it is possible nonetheless. This got me to thinking, however. I'm wondering if this will ever happen again.

Also, this says even more to me about when Jesus stated the following . . .





Now, I'm sure many view this as radical. However, a radical faith seems to get some very extraordinary things brought to reality.

Hi, I just wanted to throw a verse in,

John 11:25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

watchinginawe
May 8th 2007, 01:53 AM
Obviously, there is absolutely no arguing that.I think that I will just stop for now where we are in agreement then. :lol:

I might offer more regarding your questions at a later time.

God Bless!

Toolman
May 8th 2007, 02:20 AM
I wasn't talking about the issue with Timothy.

2 Timothy 3:16 - All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

I take it all as Christ's revelation from Genesis to Revelation.


I'm talking about in the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John that record the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ while he walked this earth in the form of a man. He performed countless healings and miracles during this time. Why didn't He instruct anyone to seek medical treatment from man-made means instead of from Himself during this time?

He did not instruct anyone to the contrary either. Why did James instruct us to go to the elders for prayer to heal the sick if Christ never commanded anyone to do that during His earthly ministry? Do we reject James advice there?


But don't you feel that if medicine was of God and it was His will that we comfort and cure ourselves with this instead of seeking Him, that He would have given mankind revelation on how to create the medication we have today a lot sooner than now? Do you believe it was His will that mankind should suffer with their afflictions for thousands of years before being given some sort of remedy?

1) I don't believe we comfort and cure ourselves apart from seeking Him but in accord with seeking Him. Which in seeking Him He may instruct the use of medicine, as Paul did Timothy. I don't think Paul was carnal in that instruction or that medicine is man-made.

2) He gives revelation based ultimately upon His sovereign plan and timing. For instance Christ died at the appointed time. No sooner and no later. All things are in God's control ultimately.

3) I believe God is using mankind's suffering to bring about a greater joy. For the joy set before Him Christ endured the suffering. Was it God's will that Christ suffer? Yes, it was. And we share in His suffering for the joy set before us.


Another question . . .

How are we to know whether or not it is God's sovereign will for us to be healed? How are we to pray a prayer of faith if we don't know if we're going to be healed? It seems to me that if someone has the thought of, "maybe He will heal me but maybe He won't" running through their mind when they pray, that they will be like a wave of the sea tossed to and fro. How can you pray a prayer of faith without doubting when you don't know whether or not it is God's will that you be healed?

We pray as Christ prayed, not my will but thine be done. That is faith, trusting God to know what is best for you just as our children should trust we are doing what is best for them. Sometimes, in their immaturity, they may not comprehend that what seems like a burden or unfair or suffering is really for their good to bring about character in them. But the mature should fully understand this as Paul spoke of in Romans 8.

VerticalReality
May 8th 2007, 02:38 AM
2 Timothy 3:16 - All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

I take it all as Christ's revelation from Genesis to Revelation.

I understand that you do, Toolman. However, we have the four gospels for a reason, and they were given to inform of the earthly life and ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ.


He did not instruct anyone to the contrary either. Why did James instruct us to go to the elders for prayer to heal the sick if Christ never commanded anyone to do that during His earthly ministry? Do we reject James advice there?

Actually, Jesus Christ did send others to do the same as He during His ministry. He sent the disciples to preach the Kingdom of heaven, to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, and cast out demons, right? So, Jesus Christ ordered His followers to be prepared to handle such issues.


1) I don't believe we comfort and cure ourselves apart from seeking Him but in accord with seeking Him. Which in seeking Him He may instruct the use of medicine, as Paul did Timothy. I don't think Paul was carnal in that instruction or that medicine is man-made.

Why do you believe Paul always operated in complete harmony with the Holy Spirit? Firstly, you don't know that it is by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that Paul instructed Timothy to drink wine for his infirmity. Secondly, we know from other scripture that Paul wasn't always dialed into the Holy Spirit, which is why I believe that he didn't immediately cast the spirit of divination out of the girl in Acts 16. That girl followed them around for many days before Paul finally casted that spirit out of the girl. I also highly doubt that the Holy Spirit was inspiring and leading Paul to get into a skirmish with a brother in Christ when he and Barnabas had their little tiff.


2) He gives revelation based ultimately upon His sovereign plan and timing. For instance Christ died at the appointed time. No sooner and no later. All things are in God's control ultimately.

So, what you're saying is that man has no will of his own and cannot do anything apart from what God would wish of him?


3) I believe God is using mankind's suffering to bring about a greater joy. For the joy set before Him Christ endured the suffering. Was it God's will that Christ suffer? Yes, it was. And we share in His suffering for the joy set before us.

Why did it please God for Christ to suffer? It wasn't just so we could have a nice cabin in the corner of heaven to look forward to.


We pray as Christ prayed, not my will but thine be done.

Let's finish it out, shall we? Thy kingdom come, thy will be done . . . on earth as it is in heaven . . .

What's God's will for us in heaven, and why would Jesus Christ have us pray that this same will would be done on earth? Is it God's will for us to be sick in heaven? Is it God's will for us to suffer in heaven? Waiting for heaven to get here before you start walking in God's blessings really just doesn't float well with this prayer.


That is faith, trusting God to know what is best for you just as our children should trust we are doing what is best for them.

Actually, what you speak of sounds more to me like hope instead of faith. It also sounds to me, according to your theology, that God is a respecter of persons. Jesus said that when we pray we should believe that we receive. He didn't say to hope that it's God's will that we receive.

cheech
May 8th 2007, 04:22 AM
Jesus said that when we pray we should believe that we receive. He didn't say to hope that it's God's will that we receive.

True, but in 1 John it also states:
This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

I have to admit I'm in the middle on this as Christ preaches faith...faith the size of a mustard seed...if you just have faith and believe. I do not doubt those words for a minute. But there are many who have a tremendous amount of faith and believe with all their hearts yet they are still ill. So then we go back to the same old argument of "do they not have enough faith?". I'm not one to believe that. For some maybe but not for all. Maybe an illness brings one closer to God. The above verse states "that if we ask for anything according to his will"...how do we really know what God's will is for each person? Where one person has troubles, those troubles might be used to bring healing to another. My friend contemplated suicide one night. A few days later she helplessly watched a man drown in a pond while his kids watched in horror on the side. From that tragedy God brought understanding and healing to this woman to realize what she would have left behind if she had gone through with her plan. It may have also brought healing to her ill marriage, showing the husband how precious life is and to think about how he treats his family.

The bible says we will have troubles which includes illness. I am one to believe God answers the prayers of the faithful, but there are times he may not as he sees further use. That doesn't mean he won't bring comfort or spiritual healing. Being he can see way ahead, everything is all in his timing and healing may not be for quite a while.

chal
May 8th 2007, 07:29 AM
Sho nuff! It's impossible for God to:

Die
Sin
Be impure
Be unjust
Be unrighteous
Be unholy


;)

Or clown around building giant rocks that even he can't lift.

VerticalReality
May 8th 2007, 12:54 PM
True, but in 1 John it also states:
This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

I definitely understand this. However, is there ever an issue where we can just know God's will? For example, we know that it is always God's will that we pray and grow in a our relationship with Him. I mean, we never have to question whether that is God's will or not. We just simply know it. If someone were to come up to me and state that it isn't God's will for their life that they pray and have a close relationship with Him, I would honestly believe they were seriously deceived. How do we ask something according to His will? Should we not pray for anything until we are absolutely positive that God has personally spoken to us about what His will is, or are there some issues where we can just know that it is God's will?


But there are many who have a tremendous amount of faith and believe with all their hearts yet they are still ill. So then we go back to the same old argument of "do they not have enough faith?".

I never believe that a person doesn't have "enough faith". As Jesus Christ stated, the faith the size of a mustard seed can pretty much accomplish anything. So, if it is never a question of "enough faith". What is it? I always like to look to the disciples as they walked with Jesus Christ. I refuse to believe that the disciples didn't have enough faith. I mean, they forsook all to follow the Lord Jesus Christ, and they were used in some of the same mighty miracles that Jesus Christ Himself performed. Therefore, it is ridiculous to me for somebody to state that the disciples didn't have "enough faith". They may of not had their faith in operation at times, but it was never a question of "enough faith", IMO.

Look at the boy in Mark 9, for example. The disciples had casted demons out of people before, but for some reason they couldn't cast the demon out of the boy. Jesus tells them in Matthew 17:20 that it is because of their unbelief that they couldn't cast that demon out. I think the real issue here is not "enough faith", but not having our faith that is enough in operation. Faith is a noun. It is not a verb. You can have all the faith in the world, but unless you have a faith that is in action, it's not going to get you anywhere. I think this is what happened with the disciples in Mark 9. They allowed unbelief to stifle their operating in what they were called to do. They knew demons could be casted out. They knew demons could be casted out by the authority in them. However, even with this knowledge they were still in unbelief and couldn't cast the demon out of the boy even though they had casted out other demons before.

So, how could they have faith in casting in demons, and even faith that they themselves could cast out demons, yet not be able to cast the demon out of this boy? It was because of doubt and unbelief. Doubt prevents more than people realize, IMO. I mean look at both Mark 11:23 and James 1:6. Both of these verses make it clear that a person is to ask God with no doubting whatsoever. Those passages don't say "try not to doubt" or "remove as much doubt as possible". They say do not doubt at all. I believe this is what happened with the disciples in Mark 9, and I also believe that doubt and unbelief is what prevents a good portion of Christians today from receiving what God has for them. How are we supposed to operate in complete faith for something with absolutely no doubting when we don't know what God's will is?

Let me ask you this . . . what is God's perfect will? Would God's perfect will be that which is of heaven being brought to earth as the Lord's prayer indicates? I believe God's perfect will for our lives is to show others His will for those walking in His kingdom as His children. Doesn't Romans 12:2 tell us not to conform to the world but be transformed by a renewing of our mind so that we may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God? I find it difficult to believe that it is God's perfect will for us to be ill. We are called to prove to everyone else what the perfect will of God is in our lives. How are we going to prove to the world God's perfect will for mankind when we are walking in the same condition as the rest of the world?


I'm not one to believe that. For some maybe but not for all. Maybe an illness brings one closer to God.

So, can we assume that since God is no respecter of persons, He will not heal one and refuse to heal another unless there is something going on in this particular person that is preventing Him from granting such a request? What hinders God's perfect will in heaven from being granted on earth?

Toolman
May 8th 2007, 02:23 PM
I understand that you do, Toolman. However, we have the four gospels for a reason, and they were given to inform of the earthly life and ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't disagree but all scripture is provided for the full understanding of God's redemptive plan, so we don't toss out any of it but consider all of it when determining doctrine.


Why do you believe Paul always operated in complete harmony with the Holy Spirit? Firstly, you don't know that it is by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that Paul instructed Timothy to drink wine for his infirmity.

If all scripture is good for teaching, reproof, correcting and training in righteousness then we must consider it such unless the author clearly says it is his opinion only.

I don't think Paul would instruct Timothy to do something sinful, which is what you are suggesting, that taking medicine is not of faith but unbelief.


Secondly, we know from other scripture that Paul wasn't always dialed into the Holy Spirit, which is why I believe that he didn't immediately cast the spirit of divination out of the girl in Acts 16.

That is only an assumption. It may have been the Spirit telling Paul to hold off on casting out the spirit until the appointed time.


So, what you're saying is that man has no will of his own and cannot do anything apart from what God would wish of him?

The subject of how man's will works within God's sovereign will is a whole other thread topic actually and too much of a rabbit trail here IMO. We can discuss that in another thread if you desire.


Why did it please God for Christ to suffer? It wasn't just so we could have a nice cabin in the corner of heaven to look forward to.

Once again a whole other complex topic of what was the purpose(s) of Christ's death, which certainly includes but is not limited to "a nice cabin in the corner of heaven to look forward to" (your paraphrase I assume of Christ preparing mansions for us). I would not term it that way but that is what I assume you are speaking of.


Let's finish it out, shall we? Thy kingdom come, thy will be done . . . on earth as it is in heaven . . .

What's God's will for us in heaven, and why would Jesus Christ have us pray that this same will would be done on earth? Is it God's will for us to be sick in heaven? Is it God's will for us to suffer in heaven? Waiting for heaven to get here before you start walking in God's blessings really just doesn't float well with this prayer.

Ok, let's take that out fully and bring it back to the topic of the OP.

Is it God's will that you die in heaven? Are you going to die?

Is it God's will that you grow old in heaven and your body decay? Will you age?

Is it God's will that your eyes grow dim and you need glasses in heaven? Why the need for glasses then?

Is it God's will that your teeth be imperfect and have holes in them? Why the holes?

Is it only because you don't have the faith to believe for these things or is there more to it than that?


Actually, what you speak of sounds more to me like hope instead of faith.

Hope and faith (and love) go hand in hand. Can't have 1 without the other.

Romans 8:18-25 - For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Now, VR, if you cannot see the future tense of what Paul is pointing to here then I'm not sure what else to say. Paul clearly (and I mean clearly) says that the redemption of our bodies is a future event that we wait for.

If redemption of the body was accomplished at the cross and incorruption and immortality is something we possess now then why does Paul say we wait patiently for it?

Because it happens at the resurrection of the saints when God fully redeems the creation by removing sin and death (and all that goes with it) from the creation. Until then we wait with hope and faith.


It also sounds to me, according to your theology, that God is a respecter of persons.

In what way. To me it sounds like your doctrine does that more than mine. God respects only those who have the faith to believe.

You will find my theology much more inclusive than yours but that is perhaps also another thread.

VerticalReality
May 8th 2007, 03:35 PM
I don't disagree but all scripture is provided for the full understanding of God's redemptive plan, so we don't toss out any of it but consider all of it when determining doctrine.

Which is why I believe the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ shows us a lot about the will of the Father. It's interesting to me that during the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ, He never advised anyone to go do something else or go seek something else in order to receive healing. He simply healed them. What changed?


If all scripture is good for teaching, reproof, correcting and training in righteousness then we must consider it such unless the author clearly says it is his opinion only.

I don't think anything in the bible is opinion. However, just because the entire bible is inspired doesn't mean that every event that is depicted in Scripture was inspired as well. It's simply an inspiried record that we know is truth because it is being given to us from above. As I said, I don't believe the Spirit was inspiring Paul and Barnabas to get in an argument, but it happened and it is recorded in a divinely inspired Scripture. The same can be said of Paul and Timothy. Just because Paul told Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach doesn't mean that Paul was being led by the Spirit to tell him that.


I don't think Paul would instruct Timothy to do something sinful, which is what you are suggesting, that taking medicine is not of faith but unbelief.

I'm not suggesting that at all. Is it sin to take your child to the park? Do you need direction from the Holy Spirit to take your child to the park? Why do we assume that since Paul told Timothy to drink wine for his stomach that he was being led of the Spirit to tell him that? Do you not believe that Paul could have told Timothy this without the direction of the Holy Spirit and without being in sin just as we can take our child to the park without His direction and not be in sin either? It's not sin to take medication. However, it's not necessarily the direction of God either.


That is only an assumption. It may have been the Spirit telling Paul to hold off on casting out the spirit until the appointed time.

Who says there is an appointed time to cast out a demon? Are you saying that we do not have the ability to cast out demons until some appointed time? If that is the case, how do you explain Matthew 12:43-45?


Is it God's will that you die in heaven? Are you going to die?

No . . . probably.


Is it God's will that you grow old in heaven and your body decay? Will you age?

No . . . probably.


Is it God's will that your eyes grow dim and you need glasses in heaven? Why the need for glasses then?

No . . . it's something wrong with me, I can tell you that.


Is it God's will that your teeth be imperfect and have holes in them? Why the holes?

No . . . maybe it's because I don't believe God to keep them healthy


Is it only because you don't have the faith to believe for these things or is there more to it than that?

I thinks it's definitely because I don't have the faith to believe for those things. It's difficult for me to imagine having the faith of Enoch that is so strong and pleased God so much that He just took Him right on out of this world without ever even experiencing death.


Hope and faith (and love) go hand in hand. Can't have 1 without the other.

We have hope in what's to come. We need faith for the here and now.


Now, VR, if you cannot see the future tense of what Paul is pointing to here then I'm not sure what else to say. Paul clearly (and I mean clearly) says that the redemption of our bodies is a future event that we wait for.

This topic is not about the resurrection or redemption of our bodies. This topic is about whether or not there is anything impossible for those who believe.


If redemption of the body was accomplished at the cross and incorruption and immortality is something we possess now then why does Paul say we wait patiently for it?

I didn't say the body was redeemed at the cross or that incorruption or immortality is something we possess now. However, let's try to keep this on the topic of whether or not there is anything impossible for those who believe.


In what way. To me it sounds like your doctrine does that more than mine. God respects only those who have the faith to believe.

And without faith it is impossible to please Him. So, therefore, if you don't believe God wants to heal you, how is that operating in faith and how can you expect to receive anything? James tell us that he who doubts is like a wave of the sea tossed to and fro and he can receive nothing from God.


You will find my theology much more inclusive than yours but that is perhaps also another thread.

Really? I believe God will heal anyone He can. Your doctrine seems to suggest that He will pick and choose who He wants to heal and who he wants to suffer regardless of what's going on in the lives of the people in question. If person A is identical to person B, shouldn't they both receive the same thing if God is no respecter of persons? So, what changes that? It changes when person A and person B are not the same. God can't do what we won't allow in our life. He's not going to force us to be healed. We have to allow it. If we're holding onto unbelief, unforgiveness, sin or whatever, how can we expect God to heal us anyway? If we aren't in the position that God has called us to be in, how can we expect to be free from whatever has come against us? I don't believe that God allows or brings stuff upon us for nothing. There is always a reason. It's either intended to bring us to a higher point of spiritual maturity, or it is intended to get us out of something we shouldn't be in to begin with.

I hear stuff all the time about God will allow someone to be sick or disabled because it brings inspiration to other people. I see not one single example of that in the bible where God made someone suffer in order to be an inspiration to another person, yet Christians today want to hold onto that belief. I see the contrary in Scripture. I see God healing people to bring inspiration and faith to others.

rchivers
May 8th 2007, 04:00 PM
Which is why I believe the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ shows us a lot about the will of the Father. It's interesting to me that during the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ, He never advised anyone to go do something else or go seek something else in order to receive healing. He simply healed them. What changed?

Umm... he no longer walks the earth as a man so its impossible to to be healed by him in the same way. Not saying God doesn't still heal, just that particular avenue no longer exists....

VerticalReality
May 8th 2007, 04:03 PM
Umm... he no longer walks the earth as a man so its impossible to to be healed by him in the same way. Not saying God doesn't still heal, just that particular avenue no longer exists....

Hmmm . . . really? I don't see it the same way.



John 14:12-14
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

Lars777
May 8th 2007, 04:52 PM
Concerning healing I agree with you Vertical Reality but here is a problem I see all the time with people.

Many have exercised there faith by praying for or asking for a healing for whatever is there problem.

And when this healing does not manafest itself in a few hours or even minutes doubt has already started to creep in and they will say an amazing thing.

It must not be Gods will!

To many christians are moved and or gage what God is doing in there lives via there 5 senses.....or there feelings if you will.

If a day goes by and that lump is still there and they do not feel any better the first reaction is there must be a reason God is not healing me.

It could never ever be them allowing doubt to creep in....no its never us.

We all know from the book of Daniel that when he prayed God not only heard him but an answer was sent fourth from the very first word uttered.

Now the answer did not arrive to Daniel for 3 minutes the first time.....then later it took 21 days for the answer to reach Daniel......but the point to remember is an answer was sent by the first word uttered.

So with that in mind we can be assured that God does hear every word we ask or pray.....we also can be assured that an answer is sent before we even get through our request.

Just as salvation was acomplished at the cross and all we need do is receive it by faith healing is part of the atonement and we receive it in the very same fashion................by faith.

By my stripes you WERE healed....1st Peter 2:24.

Now that means here and now on the earth not in heaven for we will not need any healing of sickness there......its for here and now.

Not just some......not for a few....for all !

Just receive it.....no need to ask or beg or plead....it has ALREADY BEEN GIVEN.

Faith and doubt do not mix.......they never will as in the case of Jesus raising the girl from the dead if we will notice all of the family was in the house and Jesus told them all to leave.............why?

Because of there doubt...........even a tiny lil speck of doubt will cancel your faith out.

People need to stop looking at the book of Job as there reason for remaining sick.....many still say well look at Job and what happened to him.

There is much more going on in the book of Job than appears on the surface and he is not meant to be an example as to how and why God heals.

Jesus is the the example of how The Father feels about healing but most do not view Him in that light even though He healed all in His path and even went out of His way......and never refused anyone.

Sure our bodies are going to die......but there is no need for them to die from a sickness.......but rather just plain old age.

If you have faith the size of a mustard seed YOU can move mountians.
I still cannot find any exceptions to that rule!

Toolman
May 8th 2007, 05:01 PM
Which is why I believe the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ shows us a lot about the will of the Father. It's interesting to me that during the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ, He never advised anyone to go do something else or go seek something else in order to receive healing. He simply healed them. What changed?

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1176393&postcount=13
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1176420&postcount=16


I'm not suggesting that at all. Is it sin to take your child to the park? Do you need direction from the Holy Spirit to take your child to the park? Why do we assume that since Paul told Timothy to drink wine for his stomach that he was being led of the Spirit to tell him that?

Well, obviously Paul did not regard the taking of medicine as a "man-made" thing and something that was done apart from faith in God.

That was my whole point that Paul agrees with me regarding medicine. It is a God given gift to be used in faith.


Do you not believe that Paul could have told Timothy this without the direction of the Holy Spirit and without being in sin just as we can take our child to the park without His direction and not be in sin either? It's not sin to take medication. However, it's not necessarily the direction of God either.

Your earlier stance was that taking medicine was NOT walking in faith. Whatsoever is not of faith is... sin.

So if taking medicine is not sin then it must be done in faith.

I personally believe you can take medicine (or take your kid to the park) in faith or unbelief, depends on the heart of the person and what they are ultimately trusting in.


Who says there is an appointed time to cast out a demon? Are you saying that we do not have the ability to cast out demons until some appointed time? If that is the case, how do you explain Matthew 12:43-45?

Who says there is an appointed time to preach the Gospel? Are you saying that God does not by His Spirit tell us not to preach the Gospel at certain times?

Acts 16:6-11 - And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them. So, passing by Mysia, they went down to Troas. And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedonia was standing there, urging him and saying, "Come over to Macedonia and help us." And when Paul had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go on into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.

Same could have been the case with the spirit in the girl.


No . . . probably.

No . . . probably.

No . . . it's something wrong with me, I can tell you that.

No . . . maybe it's because I don't believe God to keep them healthy

I thinks it's definitely because I don't have the faith to believe for those things. It's difficult for me to imagine having the faith of Enoch that is so strong and pleased God so much that He just took Him right on out of this world without ever even experiencing death.

That is the end result of your doctrine. You don't have the faith to believe.

Not much more I can say about that.


This topic is not about the resurrection or redemption of our bodies. This topic is about whether or not there is anything impossible for those who believe.

Your OP was in regards to immortality (which comes with the resurrection and redemption of our body) so I think it is spot on topic.

The redemption of our bodies and immortality are synonymous.


I didn't say the body was redeemed at the cross or that incorruption or immortality is something we possess now. However, let's try to keep this on the topic of whether or not there is anything impossible for those who believe.

You did in your OP:

I had read this passage of Scripture repeatedly in the past, but I had never really given this much thought. However, to get to the point, it would seem that by this Scripture that even our physical death could be overcome through faith.

If physical death is overcome by faith then that would make the person incorruptible and immortal and something they possess now. That was the very point of your OP.


And without faith it is impossible to please Him. So, therefore, if you don't believe God wants to heal you, how is that operating in faith and how can you expect to receive anything? James tell us that he who doubts is like a wave of the sea tossed to and fro and he can receive nothing from God.

I have absolutely no doubt that Christ's atoning work on the cross and His resurrection has provided the healing of all of creation and that sin and death have been abolished. My faith lies in that.

I also know that hope is spoken of in the scripture so that I don't become discouraged as God brings about the fullness of what has already been accomplished in His good timing. I trust He knows what is best (better than me).


Really? I believe God will heal anyone He can. Your doctrine seems to suggest that He will pick and choose who He wants to heal and who he wants to suffer regardless of what's going on in the lives of the people in question. If person A is identical to person B, shouldn't they both receive the same thing if God is no respecter of persons?

The rain falls on the just and the unjust. God is no respecter of persons.


So, what changes that? It changes when person A and person B are not the same. God can't do what we won't allow in our life. He's not going to force us to be healed.

Really.. God can't heal an unbeliever if God chooses to do so?


We have to allow it. If we're holding onto unbelief, unforgiveness, sin or whatever, how can we expect God to heal us anyway? If we aren't in the position that God has called us to be in, how can we expect to be free from whatever has come against us?

Grace.


I don't believe that God allows or brings stuff upon us for nothing. There is always a reason. It's either intended to bring us to a higher point of spiritual maturity, or it is intended to get us out of something we shouldn't be in to begin with.

I hear stuff all the time about God will allow someone to be sick or disabled because it brings inspiration to other people. I see not one single example of that in the bible where God made someone suffer in order to be an inspiration to another person, yet Christians today want to hold onto that belief. I see the contrary in Scripture. I see God healing people to bring inspiration and faith to others.

Do you believe that God will heal our brothers and sisters who are paraplegic, quadriplegic, have lost limbs, have been blinded, are deaf, who have died?

Do you think the resurrection will be inspirational to all of creation?

How long was the blind man (John 9) blind? From birth to of age (at least 30) when Jesus healed Him. Why did God allow him to be blind so long?

So that the works of God might be displayed.

If God chooses to wait until the resurrection to heal the afflicted so that His work might be displayed to creation who are we to curse that.

Regarding whether God uses suffering to inspire people I say look to the person of Jesus Christ and His apostles. They suffered for the faith. Does that inspire you or does it make you want to avoid suffering?

The scriptures speaking of suffering are a veritable plethora:

Romans 5:3, Romans 8:17, 1 Corinthians 12:26, 2 Corinthians 1:5, 2 Corinthians 1:6-7, Philippians 1:29, Philippians 3:8-10, 1 Thessalonians 3:4, 2 Timothy 1:8, 2 Timothy 1:12, 2 Timothy 2:3, 2 Timothy 4:5, Hebrews 2:10, Hebrews 5:8, Hebrews 11:36, James 5:10, 1 Peter 2:21, 1 Peter 4:13, 1 Peter 4:19

Toolman
May 8th 2007, 05:08 PM
Sure our bodies are going to die......but there is no need for them to die from a sickness.......but rather just plain old age.


Why, isn't death just the largest mountain? Why can't death and old age (which is the decay of the body) be conquered through faith?

If all Christians can live free of sickness then they should logically be able to live free of old age and death.

VerticalReality
May 8th 2007, 05:23 PM
Concerning healing I agree with you Vertical Reality but here is a problem I see all the time with people.

Many have exercised there faith by praying for or asking for a healing for whatever is there problem.

And when this healing does not manafest itself in a few hours or even minutes doubt has already started to creep in and they will say an amazing thing.

It must not be Gods will!

To many christians are moved and or gage what God is doing in there lives via there 5 senses.....or there feelings if you will.

If a day goes by and that lump is still there and they do not feel any better the first reaction is there must be a reason God is not healing me.

It could never ever be them allowing doubt to creep in....no its never us.

We all know from the book of Daniel that when he prayed God not only heard him but an answer was sent fourth from the very first word uttered.

Now the answer did not arrive to Daniel for 3 minutes the first time.....then later it took 21 days for the answer to reach Daniel......but the point to remember is an answer was sent by the first word uttered.

So with that in mind we can be assured that God does hear every word we ask or pray.....we also can be assured that an answer is sent before we even get through our request.

Just as salvation was acomplished at the cross and all we need do is receive it by faith healing is part of the atonement and we receive it in the very same fashion................by faith.

By my stripes you WERE healed....1st Peter 2:24.

Now that means here and now on the earth not in heaven for we will not need any healing of sickness there......its for here and now.

Not just some......not for a few....for all !

Just receive it.....no need to ask or beg or plead....it has ALREADY BEEN GIVEN.

Faith and doubt do not mix.......they never will as in the case of Jesus raising the girl from the dead if we will notice all of the family was in the house and Jesus told them all to leave.............why?

Because of there doubt...........even a tiny lil speck of doubt will cancel your faith out.

People need to stop looking at the book of Job as there reason for remaining sick.....many still say well look at Job and what happened to him.

There is much more going on in the book of Job than appears on the surface and he is not meant to be an example as to how and why God heals.

Jesus is the the example of how The Father feels about healing but most do not view Him in that light even though He healed all in His path and even went out of His way......and never refused anyone.

Sure our bodies are going to die......but there is no need for them to die from a sickness.......but rather just plain old age.

If you have faith the size of a mustard seed YOU can move mountians.
I still cannot find any exceptions to that rule!

YES!!! For a while there it was simply . . . :B :B :B

Finally somebody I can agree with!

I will get back to this thread when I have a little more time.

cheech
May 8th 2007, 06:04 PM
I definitely understand this. However, is there ever an issue where we can just know God's will?

You said it with Romans 12:2...don't conform to the world, renew our minds so we may prove what is good and acceptable and perfect will of God...understanding God's word...reading it...will bring us the knowledge of God's will is. This may not be right off the bat though. It could be in steps...in other words, God may not reveal it to us right at that moment but over time...guiding us in steps to his will. Just because we are christians does not mean we will be without troubles...including illness:

Psalm 34-19-20
19 A righteous man may have many troubles, but the LORD delivers him from them all; 20 he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.
This is where faith comes into play...the faith Christ talks about...believing that God will answer our prayers but they may not always be answered the way we want them answered. God can see ahead, we can't. Some will suffer. Job suffered and he was one of the most righteous men on the earth. He lost everything...but what did the story of his life show us? He had faith that God would see him through. Yes, he questioned, as any human would, but he persevered till the end and was rewarded immensely with more than he had before. It happened in God's timing though, not his. Christ suffered in his own body...he was crucified. He is the most righteous of all but in dying on that cross he not only sacrificed himself to save us, but to me, he proved he was human till the end and he was not beyond suffering for his Father. He stressed about it just like we would, even to the point of asking God to take it from him ONLY if it was God's will.

Matt 26:39
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

Christ was God, but he obeyed his Father. He knew what the will of God was, but yet still asked for something he knew would not happen because it wasn't God's will. What a wonderful example for us he was.

In 1 Peter 4 it talks about Christ suffering in his body and that basically we are not exempt.

1 Peter 4:1-2
1Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. 2As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.


For example, we know that it is always God's will that we pray and grow in a our relationship with Him. I mean, we never have to question whether that is God's will or not. We just simply know it. If someone were to come up to me and state that it isn't God's will for their life that they pray and have a close relationship with Him, I would honestly believe they were seriously deceived. How do we ask something according to His will? Should we not pray for anything until we are absolutely positive that God has personally spoken to us about what His will is, or are there some issues where we can just know that it is God's will?Good point...and yes, I agree, they would be seriously deceived because it is not according to God's word. That is how we test what is right and wrong...according to God's word:

1 John 2:4-6
4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=2&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-30540a)] is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Also, regarding not praying for anything until we know for sure...the bible states this:

Romans 8:26-27
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.

You brought up some good examples regarding doubt. There are instances where lack of faith is the culprit. Doubt isn't of God but of satan. The disciples thoroughly believed in Christ, but for a while they doubted what they could do through him as you noted in Mark 9 when they were unable to cast out the demons. As you stated...they knew they were given the authority to do this, but they lacked the faith. They knew how powerful Christ was but it seems as though they doubted they could carry that out through him. They were human and still, no doubt, thought in human standards. Just as Peter did when he climbed out of the boat to walk towards Christ. When he kept his sights on Christ, Peter walked in confidence...when he looked away at the crashing waves...he began to sink due to lack of faith and as Christ stated: "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?"


How are we supposed to operate in complete faith for something with absolutely no doubting when we don't know what God's will is? After I accepted Christ, I had no idea what God's will for me was. I feared teaching and getting up in front of people and looking stupid. So I avoided these things like the plague. As time went on, and I began reading the bible, which is where we will find the knowledge to know what God's will is for our lives, I began to see the path he was leading me on although it wasn't all at once...it was in steps. If he had shoved me into what he really wanted me to do in life...I would have freaked out! I'd have been in shock because he was leading me to the very thing I avoided...teaching and standing up in front of people. He eased me into the position (knowing how much of a baby I am I suppose :lol:) and this was over a matter of almost 10 years. Now I am a Director of a biblical recovery program. If this were 10 years ago I would have headed in the opposite direction. I had no idea in the beginning what God's will for me was, but I when I accepted his Son into my life, I put full trust in him to lead me to his will. Trusting in God doesn't always mean you are going to know what he wants right away...but you trust the he will guide you and lead you in the direction he wants you to go even if you don't know which direction that is. You follow his word and read it daily as that is his complete will for all of us...to follow his word.



"Let me ask you this . . . what is God's perfect will?"

If you do a search on God's will in the bible...many verses come up with different answers..all of what we need to follow...it basically says don't do evil, do good. Those are not exact words but it sums it up. Following God's ways and not conforming to the ways of the world.


So, can we assume that since God is no respecter of persons, He will not heal one and refuse to heal another unless there is something going on in this particular person that is preventing Him from granting such a request? What hinders God's perfect will in heaven from being granted on earth?
Well what we can assume is that God doesn't work by mans standards and what man thinks.

Ecc 11:5
As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the body is formed [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=25&chapter=11&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-17519a)] in a mother's womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things.

Many have suffered throughout the bible and yet had faith. David was so depressed he hurt to the bones (hence the commercial "Depression Hurts"). Yet he followed what God wanted him to do without question and prayed constantly. Job was most righteous yet fell ill. This shows me no one is exempt from illness, not even the most righteous, but with prayer and faith, God will see us through it. God uses every situation. Yes, it seems unfair some are healed and some aren't, but who are we to question the fairness of God? Christ taught faith...healing comes in many forms, not just physical.

I will add that this is a great thread!

Righton
May 8th 2007, 06:15 PM
Now this is pretty impressive, IMO. Apparently, due to Enoch's faith, he was taken by God without ever seeing his physical death. Now I realize that this is extremely rare considering Enoch and Elijah are the only two throughout Scripture that were taken before death. And I also understand that it is generally understood that it is appointed unto man once to die. However, Enoch shows that by faith it is possible nonetheless. This got me to thinking, however. I'm wondering if this will ever happen again.

Yes, it will happen again.

Revelation 11:
1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." 4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

13At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

If you see these events taking place during your lifetime, you'll know the end has come.

As far as perfection of the mind, body, and spirit go, we have this, from Jesus Christ: Matthew 5:48
48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Befaithful
May 8th 2007, 06:17 PM
Cheech your post blessed me so much. Thank you.
:hug:

Lars777
May 8th 2007, 08:22 PM
if you knew your bible you would realize that death is the last enemy to be put under Jesus feet. physical death...death of the body

Toolman
May 8th 2007, 08:26 PM
if you knew your bible you would realize that death is the last enemy to be put under Jesus feet. physical death...death of the body

Thanks for the graciousness of your post Lars and the little personal attack that I don't know my bible.

I do realize that our bodies are to be redeemed in the future and that is the exact point of my posting in this thread. Physical death is not caused by a lack of faith but is part of the plan of God for redemption. That redemption happens at a future point just like the full physical healing of our bodies.

VerticalReality
May 8th 2007, 09:01 PM
Thanks for the graciousness of your post Lars and the little personal attack that I don't know my bible.

I do realize that our bodies are to be redeemed in the future and that is the exact point of my posting in this thread. Physical death is not caused by a lack of faith but is part of the plan of God for redemption. That redemption happens at a future point just like the full physical healing of our bodies.

I disagree that death is not caused by a lack of faith. Why was death, sickness, and disease introduced into this world? It was ultimately due to a lack of faith. It was Adam's lack of faith in God's Word. That lack of faith in God brought death.

I would address more points in this thread, but man I'm low on time today. My wife has our church's mother/daughter dinner tonight and I'm Mr. mom!

Toolman
May 8th 2007, 09:10 PM
I disagree that death is not caused by a lack of faith. Why was death, sickness, and disease introduced into this world? It was ultimately due to a lack of faith. It was Adam's lack of faith in God's Word. That lack of faith in God brought death.

In the bigger sense of scripture yes, it was Adam's sin which brought death into the world.

But, if you are proclaiming that you will die (and all those who have and will) because of a lack of faith then that means you will die with unrepentant sin (because whatsoever is not of faith is sin). Depending on your view of death with unrepenant sin that could cause yet one more problem with this new doctrine.


I would address more points in this thread, but man I'm low on time today. My wife has our church's mother/daughter dinner tonight and I'm Mr. mom!

http://popwatch.ew.com/photos/uncategorized/161313__mrmom_l.jpg

"I understand that you little guys start out with your woobies and you think they're great... and they are, they are terrific. But pretty soon, a woobie isn't enough. You're out on the street trying to score an electric blanket, or maybe a quilt. And the next thing you know, you're strung out on bedspreads Ken. That's serious. "

:)

VerticalReality
May 8th 2007, 11:18 PM
In the bigger sense of scripture yes, it was Adam's sin which brought death into the world.

But, if you are proclaiming that you will die (and all those who have and will) because of a lack of faith then that means you will die with unrepentant sin (because whatsoever is not of faith is sin). Depending on your view of death with unrepenant sin that could cause yet one more problem with this new doctrine.

I don't see how this could be true. If someone doesn't have faith to eat pork are they going to die in unrepentant sin? Just because you don't have faith for a particular thing to happen doesn't mean you are in sin. Many people don't have faith for a lot of the miraculous, but that doesn't mean they are in sin. It would seem to me that it is sin if you continuously insist on trying to do something when you simply don't have the faith for it. I believe this is why Paul tells us to do things in proportion to our faith in Romans 12. For example, it doesn't do us or anyone else any good to pray for a disabled person to rise out of their wheelchair and walk if we don't have faith that it will happen. That could cause a lot more harm that good.