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napsnsnacks
May 8th 2007, 08:07 AM
As far as I am concerned I have never approved of all we see defined as born again or physical acts in the church of being born again or some person versions of receiving the Holy Spirit and all that.

Jesus used "born" for a reason.

Being born is a process. Water breaks, contractions, move down the birth canal.

Who knows how fast that can happen or could take hours.

When we are "born again" I think this takes us a lifetime of birthing because there is so much of us to get out of the way and I think we really will be "born" like when our feet leave the birth canal is like when we die and leave our bodies.

With some they mature quicker than others, there is no "program" or "formula."

The two are comparable and both are a process.

Prodigal Daughter
May 8th 2007, 11:51 AM
I mean you no disrespect, but I have no idea what you are talking about. THat made no sense whatsoever

Whispering Grace
May 8th 2007, 12:28 PM
As far as I am concerned I have never approved of all we see defined as born again or physical acts in the church of being born again or some person versions of receiving the Holy Spirit and all that.

Jesus used "born" for a reason.

Being born is a process. Water breaks, contractions, move down the birth canal.

Who knows how fast that can happen or could take hours.

When we are "born again" I think this takes us a lifetime of birthing because there is so much of us to get out of the way and I think we really will be "born" like when our feet leave the birth canal is like when we die and leave our bodies.

With some they mature quicker than others, there is no "program" or "formula."

The two are comparable and both are a process.

Having witnessed numerous births, I assure you that birth is an instantaneous thing. You are confusing labor with birth.

TEITZY
May 8th 2007, 01:25 PM
As far as I am concerned I have never approved of all we see defined as born again or physical acts in the church of being born again or some person versions of receiving the Holy Spirit and all that.

Jesus used "born" for a reason.

Being born is a process. Water breaks, contractions, move down the birth canal.

Who knows how fast that can happen or could take hours.

When we are "born again" I think this takes us a lifetime of birthing because there is so much of us to get out of the way and I think we really will be "born" like when our feet leave the birth canal is like when we die and leave our bodies.

With some they mature quicker than others, there is no "program" or "formula."

The two are comparable and both are a process.

But the Scriptures speak of our birth in the past tense:

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Pet 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.


The term "born again" is associated with our regeneration which happens instantaneously when we place our faith in Christ. The process of spiritual growth (sanctification) follows the new birth and so terms like "babes" & "milk" are associated with young or immature believers while terms such as "full age" and "meat" are associated with mature believers. The Christian life is also often described as a race and only those out of the womb can participate in a race (ie. first we crawl, then we walk and finally we run).

Cheers
Leigh

uric3
May 8th 2007, 02:24 PM
As far as I am concerned I have never approved of all we see defined as born again or physical acts in the church of being born again or some person versions of receiving the Holy Spirit and all that.

Jesus used "born" for a reason.

Being born is a process. Water breaks, contractions, move down the birth canal.

Who knows how fast that can happen or could take hours.

When we are "born again" I think this takes us a lifetime of birthing because there is so much of us to get out of the way and I think we really will be "born" like when our feet leave the birth canal is like when we die and leave our bodies.

With some they mature quicker than others, there is no "program" or "formula."

The two are comparable and both are a process.


Well we do die and thats how we are born again... baptism not only washes aways our sins and adds us to the Body of Christ but it our man of sin being buried in water because we died or killed the old man and we rise up to walk in newness of life... we have put on Christ and we are born a Christian or a new creature if you will. So we are born again once we become a Christian via the watery grave of Baptism...

Just look at Rom 6:1-6 which states

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Some passages to look at are John 3:1-6, Rom 6:1-6 (already noted) 1st Peter 3:20-21 etc...

So we do die and are born again when we become a Christian if you have any questions feel free to ask I will answer in more detail but I have to get back to work...

Whispering Grace
May 8th 2007, 02:58 PM
But the Scriptures speak of our birth in the past tense:

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Pet 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.


The term "born again" is associated with our regeneration which happens instantaneously when we place our faith in Christ. The process of spiritual growth (sanctification) follows the new birth and so terms like "babes" & "milk" are associated with young or immature believers while terms such as "full age" and "meat" are associated with mature believers. The Christian life is also often described as a race and only those out of the womb can participate in a race (ie. first we crawl, then we walk and finally we run).

Cheers
Leigh

Good post, Teitzy.

napsnsnacks
May 8th 2007, 06:01 PM
Having witnessed numerous births, I assure you that birth is an instantaneous thing. You are confusing labor with birth.

If you think that labor, uteral contractions on the baby, are not part of being born then you haven't witnessed very much.

Whispering Grace
May 8th 2007, 07:00 PM
If you think that labor, uteral contractions on the baby, are not part of being born then you haven't witnessed very much.

There is a process leading up to the birth and then there is the actual birth, when the baby leaves the womb and takes air into it's lungs which gives it sustainable life.

What time were you born, napsnsnacks? If you don't know, go ask your mom. I assure you, you were born at one instant in time (I was born at 9:54pm) and not a range of minutes or hours.

Whispering Grace
May 8th 2007, 07:30 PM
In honor of my kids' birthdays today, I will point out that my labor with my oldest son was about 6 hours and he was born at 11:14pm and my labor with my daughter was 59 minutes and she was born at 3:29am. :cool:

Nanpsnsnacks, if you want to make natural comparisons with the divine, I would equate "labor" or the "birth process" with that time when the Holy Spirit is working in someone's heart and mind to bring them to knowledge of the truth.

Then there is the actual moment when the work of the Holy Spirit comes to fruition and the person comes to saving faith in Jesus Christ. That is the moment when the new birth takes place.

And as Teitzy pointed out, after our new birth, we are babes who need to grow up in Christ, but we can't grow up if we have never been born.

napsnsnacks
May 9th 2007, 04:26 AM
There is a process leading up to the birth and then there is the actual birth, when the baby leaves the womb and takes air into it's lungs which gives it sustainable life.

What time were you born, napsnsnacks? If you don't know, go ask your mom. I assure you, you were born at one instant in time (I was born at 9:54pm) and not a range of minutes or hours.

The doctor is required by law to document only the time of the birthing process when you were completely out of the birth canal so the secular definition of "born" has no application.

ravi4u2
May 9th 2007, 04:31 AM
Was Nicodemus stupid when he asked can a man enter into the womb of the mother and be born again? On the contrary, perhaps he was the most intelligent man (besides Jesus) in Israel then. He knows that it takes a woman to give birth. Do you know that we have a Heavenly Mother? And I speak not about Mary.

napsnsnacks
May 9th 2007, 04:38 AM
In honor of my kids' birthdays today, I will point out that my labor with my oldest son was about 6 hours and he was born at 11:14pm and my labor with my daughter was 59 minutes and she was born at 3:29am. :cool:

Nanpsnsnacks, if you want to make natural comparisons with the divine, I would equate "labor" or the "birth process" with that time when the Holy Spirit is working in someone's heart and mind to bring them to knowledge of the truth.

Then there is the actual moment when the work of the Holy Spirit comes to fruition and the person comes to saving faith in Jesus Christ. That is the moment when the new birth takes place.

And as Teitzy pointed out, after our new birth, we are babes who need to grow up in Christ, but we can't grow up if we have never been born.


Countless times I have seen these people go through the church demands of signs and wonders and physical and verbal evidences of conversion an 100% of these people never continued their walk of faith. They returned to their sin and stayed there. Totally disillusioned and these fraudulent process of salvation an conversion and such. Such is orchestrated by faithless people who demand signs and wonders for every last thing.

On the other hand, those people who simply made "that" decision went on with their faith and their walk with Christ. They may have fallen in their sin again but they got up again, repented, who knows over and over until it was beaten.

These other people, subject to fake deliverance from their sins with big fanfare and procedural process of receiving God, demonstrate that there is no Hedonist instant satisfaction with these matters. They are convinced they are completely born again and then whammo, they crash and burn. I was involved with such people for ages though I was never part of it.

This is why I think being born again starts with a decision an then grows from there compared to the alternative and then walking out the door with a big bag of amusement park like emotions and your problems are gone because you are "born again."

I know which understanding of the matter works in peoples lives and it is the one I mentioned compared to the circus tricks an hoop jumping.

They are known by their fruit. And being baptized of course. Not signs and wonders and or counterfeit spiritual gifts to be seen of the world.

napsnsnacks
May 9th 2007, 05:03 AM
Was Nicodemus stupid when he asked can a man enter into the womb of the mother and be born again? On the contrary, perhaps he was the most intelligent man (besides Jesus) in Israel then. He knows that it takes a woman to give birth. Do you know that we have a Heavenly Mother? And I speak not about Mary.

Do you have a scripture reference to a "Heavenly Mother"?

mikeynash
May 9th 2007, 11:02 AM
Mate in reference to the people coming into a church and wanting a physical sign. Its a common thing... I could tell you that I have jumped out of a plane at 12,000 feet. You could either belive me or not, but if you've used the evidence that I have posted in the past, you can probably work out i'm crazy enough to do it... regulary!

With this in mind, you could choose to belive that Jesus died and was raised again, or not. But if you use the physical evidence of the bible, and physical evidence of God working through people's lives all around us, its not hard to have faith in God. Wanting to see God face to face is not faith.

With regards to your argument about birth... a child is Born when it enters into the world, not when the "birthing" process starts. I had been seeking God for many years, to me that was my birthing process, i was born again when I accepted Jesus into my heart and entered into a new life.

According to the Cambridge Dictionary - Definition
born (BEGIN TO EXIST)
adjective
1 be born When a person or animal is born, they come out of their mother's body and start to exist:

Not when the water breaks.

Whispering Grace
May 9th 2007, 11:35 AM
Do you know that we have a Heavenly Mother? And I speak not about Mary.

You might want to expand on this because that sounds blasphemous to me.

DSK
May 9th 2007, 11:35 AM
I think being born again starts with a decision

It really isn't important what we think. What ultimately matters is what God's words says,

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

the NIV words it this way; "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husbands will, but born of God."

From the above verse it becomes clear that being born again comes not through a humans decision. If we posit that faith or our belief is required to be born again, then how would we explain the verse above, which says our decision does not play a part in our being born again? Belief being a decision would also be excluded as a condition for being born again since God doesn't believe for us.

Whispering Grace
May 9th 2007, 11:46 AM
This is why I think being born again starts with a decision an then grows from there compared to the alternative and then walking out the door with a big bag of amusement park like emotions and your problems are gone because you are "born again."

Who said our problems go away when we are born again? When I started walking closer with the Lord is when things in my life got substantially worse in many ways because Satan was having a field day with me.

Whoever told you born again Christians never have trials and tribulations told you a lie. The Bible clearly says we will.

mikeynash
May 9th 2007, 11:48 AM
That is one of the biggest lies, that christianity is a crutch for the weak... yeah right! Its infinately more difficult being a christian in this day and age...

Whispering Grace
May 9th 2007, 11:52 AM
That is one of the biggest lies, that christianity is a crutch for the weak... yeah right! Its infinately more difficult being a christian in this day and age...

As I am fond of saying.....anyone who thinks being a Christian is easy doesn't have the first clue what it means to be one.

mikeynash
May 9th 2007, 11:56 AM
absolutely agree 100% there mate.

ravi4u2
May 9th 2007, 04:25 PM
You might want to expand on this because that sounds blasphemous to me.
Galatians 4:26 (The Amplified Bible) - But the Jerusalem above (the Messianic kingdom of Christ) is free, and she is our mother.

Whispering Grace
May 9th 2007, 04:29 PM
Galatians 4:26 (The Amplified Bible) - But the Jerusalem above (the Messianic kingdom of Christ) is free, and she is our mother.

I'm sure how you get from that verse that we have a "Heavenly Mother" like we have a "Heavenly Father"

John146
May 9th 2007, 04:42 PM
If you think that labor, uteral contractions on the baby, are not part of being born then you haven't witnessed very much.

Once a baby is born, he/she is born. They are not born for 9 months. They are born at the end of the 9 months. It doesn't take them years to be born after they come out of the mother's womb. Once someone stops denying Christ and staying in the darkness and repents of their sins and surrenders their life to Him, they are born again. They are not born again years later once they mature. The thief on the cross was born again. Did he need to go through a process for that to happen? It is not a process, it is an event that takes place when the Holy Spirit indwells a person.

DSK
May 9th 2007, 05:48 PM
Galatians 4:26 (The Amplified Bible) - But the Jerusalem above (the Messianic kingdom of Christ) is free, and she is our mother.

The word "mother" in that verse is only used metaphorically.

napsnsnacks
May 9th 2007, 07:47 PM
Galatians 4:26 (The Amplified Bible) - But the Jerusalem above (the Messianic kingdom of Christ) is free, and she is our mother.

I knew a preacher waaay out in left field who used the Amplified.

napsnsnacks
May 9th 2007, 07:50 PM
Galatians 4:26 (The Amplified Bible) - But the Jerusalem above (the Messianic kingdom of Christ) is free, and she is our mother.

GAL 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Taking that literally would be idolatry.

RogerW
May 9th 2007, 09:32 PM
It really isn't important what we think. What ultimately matters is what God's words says,

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

the NIV words it this way; "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husbands will, but born of God."

From the above verse it becomes clear that being born again comes not through a humans decision. If we posit that faith or our belief is required to be born again, then how would we explain the verse above, which says our decision does not play a part in our being born again? Belief being a decision would also be excluded as a condition for being born again since God doesn't believe for us.

This is a good verse to show comparison between physical birth and spiritual birth. When we are physically born into this world it is through no choice of our own. We did not ask to be physically born. We have no say in the process, we are participants only in the sense that we travel down the birth canal through the muscle contractions of the mother, through no choice of our own. In fact, if we had a choice at this point we would most likely choose to stay in the womb where we have always found comfort, nourishment, and safety. Being physically born is a traumatic experience. It is the same way with spiritual birth. When we receive spiritual life it is because God has done a super natural work in our hearts through the message of the cross and the power of the Holy Spirit. We are passive in our new birth, just as we were passive in our physical birth, until God through the Holy Spirit gives us faith to believe.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

RW

ravi4u2
May 10th 2007, 03:51 AM
Revelations 21:2 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (KJV)

Check Galatians out in the Greek if you don't like the Amplified...it says 'meter' which translated means 'mother'. Paul certainly knew what he was speaking about. Revelations 21 says the new Jerusalem comes 'out of God' adorned like a bride...where did Eve come out from? From Adam...This is not to say that we must worship the heavenly Jerusalem. We worship only the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But something happens when someone is born again. He enters into the very heart of God...the heavenly Jerusalem...who is real and will manifest herself...from within God as a Bride

SemperReformanda
May 10th 2007, 03:59 AM
Revelations 21:2 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (KJV)

Check Galatians out in the Greek if you don't like the Amplified...it says 'meter' which translated means 'mother'. Paul certainly knew what he was speaking about. Revelations 21 says the new Jerusalem comes 'out of God' adorned like a bride...where did Eve come out from? From Adam...This is not to say that we must worship the heavenly Jerusalem. We worship only the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But something happens when someone is born again. He enters into the very heart of God...the heavenly Jerusalem...who is real and will manifest herself...from within God as a Bride
The bride in Revelation is the church.

Galatians 4:26 is using the figurative form of the word "μητηρ", as is obvious for anybody who studies the context in the previous verses. The verse is talking about the covenant of grace.

Let me ask you this, do you believe that verse 25 is making an ontological statement about Hagar? Do you really believe that Hagar is literally Mount Sinai?

ravi4u2
May 10th 2007, 05:32 PM
The bride in Revelation is the church.

Galatians 4:26 is using the figurative form of the word "μητηρ", as is obvious for anybody who studies the context in the previous verses. The verse is talking about the covenant of grace.

Let me ask you this, do you believe that verse 25 is making an ontological statement about Hagar? Do you really believe that Hagar is literally Mount Sinai?
Come on...so is Matthew 2:11 also figurative. I quote it here: "And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother[meter], and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh." according to your argument, Mary is the figurative mother of Jesus because it is the same word used to describe mother here. How about Ephesians 5:31? "...Leave his father and mother (meter)..." So, this speaks about leaving the father and mother figuratively as well? To say that mother in Galatians 4:26 is figurative and not so in other places is selective interpretation.

Hagar corresponds to Mt Sinai (that is allegory) and answereth to Jersusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children (that is not allegory). Those born of the earthly Jersusalem live by the Law and so are in bondage. But those born of of the heavenly Jerusalem are free, for they live by faith.

Your statement that 'the bride in Revelation is the Church' is very summative

RogerW
May 11th 2007, 04:02 AM
Come on...so is Matthew 2:11 also figurative. I quote it here: "And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother[meter], and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh." according to your argument, Mary is the figurative mother of Jesus because it is the same word used to describe mother here. How about Ephesians 5:31? "...Leave his father and mother (meter)..." So, this speaks about leaving the father and mother figuratively as well? To say that mother in Galatians 4:26 is figurative and not so in other places is selective interpretation.

Hagar corresponds to Mt Sinai (that is allegory) and answereth to Jersusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children (that is not allegory). Those born of the earthly Jersusalem live by the Law and so are in bondage. But those born of of the heavenly Jerusalem are free, for they live by faith.

Your statement that 'the bride in Revelation is the Church' is very summative

ALLEGORY - American Tract Society Dictionary

A figurative mode of discourse, which employs terms literally belonging to one thing, in order to express another. It is strictly a prolonged metaphor. Such are Nathan's address to David, 2Sa 12:1-14; Ps 80:1-19, and our Lord's parable of the sower, Lu 8:5-15. The expression, "which things are an allegory," Ga 4:24, means that the events in the life of Isaac and Ishmael, mentioned in previous verses, have been allegorically applied.

An allegory is a description of one thing under the image of another. It is a story in which people, things, and happenings have another meaning, as in a fable or parable: allegories are used for teaching or explaining the presentation of ideas by means of such stories; symbolical narration or description. In painting and sculpture, a symbolic representation. Any emblem or symbolic suggestion. Syn. - fable, fiction, metaphor, illustration, parable, simile.

RW

ravi4u2
May 11th 2007, 04:17 AM
ALLEGORY - American Tract Society Dictionary

A figurative mode of discourse, which employs terms literally belonging to one thing, in order to express another. It is strictly a prolonged metaphor. Such are Nathan's address to David, 2Sa 12:1-14; Ps 80:1-19, and our Lord's parable of the sower, Lu 8:5-15. The expression, "which things are an allegory," Ga 4:24, means that the events in the life of Isaac and Ishmael, mentioned in previous verses, have been allegorically applied.

An allegory is a description of one thing under the image of another. It is a story in which people, things, and happenings have another meaning, as in a fable or parable: allegories are used for teaching or explaining the presentation of ideas by means of such stories; symbolical narration or description. In painting and sculpture, a symbolic representation. Any emblem or symbolic suggestion. Syn. - fable, fiction, metaphor, illustration, parable, simile.

RW

What does the Bible say...that is important. Scripture has to interpret scripture. And anyway, American Tract say Gal 4:24 is an allegory. I agree that verse 24 is an allegory. The Bible says so. verse 26 is not.

RogerW
May 11th 2007, 03:09 PM
What does the Bible say...that is important. Scripture has to interpret scripture. And anyway, American Tract say Gal 4:24 is an allegory. I agree that verse 24 is an allegory. The Bible says so. verse 26 is not.

The following opinion is presented in part from Bible Class Commentary by Henry T. Mahan. I have not made distinction between his interpretation and my own.

This passage in Ga 4:21-31 presents an allegory or a story in which people, things and happenings have a symbolic meaning. To understand the allegory you have to read the passage in its full context, not only vs 24. Abraham had two sons, one by a servant, the other by his wife. Hagar, the servant, represented the covenant at Mount Sinai; Sarah, the free woman, represented the covenant of redemption through the gospel of Christ. The two sons represent two types of professors; legalists and Christians. Believers in Christ are like Isaac, and children of the promise; legalists are like Ishmael, men after the flesh.

A second principle is intended. Ishmael was 'born after the flesh', or by ordinary strength of natural birth (his mother being a young woman fit for conception). Issac was not conceived from such. His mother was ninety years old and unable to bear children, so he was born 'by promise', or by the miracle of God.

These two women represent two covenants. The covenant under the old, which was greatly mistaken (it was never given to save) and was called a covenant of works by those who cling to it. And the covenant of redemption under the new (Heb 8:7,8).

The Sinai covenant prefigured by Hagar produces children of bondage. It cannot produce heirs of life. Its means are human works, merit and fear, and is, like Jerusalem today, in bondage to the law, sin and the wrath of God. Just like Ishmael, followers of the law can never be included with the true heir of Abraham.

The Messianic kingdom of Christ is from above, not from Sinai. Redemption is in His sacrifice and not in the ordinances of the law. The covenant of redemption has its access to the throne of God through Christ. This covenant is free from the curse of the law and from the bondage of the law and is the mother of every believer. We are born of grace.

This is a prophecy from Isaiah 54:1 and seems to refer to the church as it was in the early days after our Lord's death under the ministry of the apostles. There were few believers in the city, but the Lord promises that she shall be a fruitful mother with many children.

We believers are children of the promise, as Isaac was. This is what the allegory demonstrates.

RW

Jesusinmyheart
May 11th 2007, 04:45 PM
As far as I am concerned I have never approved of all we see defined as born again or physical acts in the church of being born again or some person versions of receiving the Holy Spirit and all that.

To be born again, is to be immersed in the truth, so that one can have a "fresh start" at a new life.

One that is not sure of their way is not "born again"

If i go by that actually, i have been born again just a week ago. Because i now see clearly. Now it's time for God to raise up a godly daughter.

I kind of get what you are saying about the birthing process, that in itself can take quite some time. Some learn quicker and some don't.

napsnsnacks
May 11th 2007, 08:28 PM
. Some learn quicker and some don't.

Another thing that is misunderstood and misapplied is the "one size fits all" general rule and the error from that is comparing one person to another as far as personal growth is concerning.

It really isn't so much about "learning" though that is a large part of it.

The large part of it, even though the "best" are steeped in sin, we are individuals concerning our sin.

Many people who accept Christ find it "easy" and then since God appears to be so kind to them this turned out to be a rule in the church denigrating those who have such a hard time serving according to scripture. Why?

I have always known the difference like night and day between people who have lived reasonably benign lives who end up accepting Christ.

Look at others who accept Christ: They are involved with the vilest and most enslaving sins our world has to offer.

It isn't a problem per say with "learning" the Word of God (look at preachers fallen down into or back into the "world" compared to how much they know) it is a problem with dealing with so much personal sin.

The standard of how God delivers people is how He appears to deal with those fairly benign and their conversion in light of those whose lives are malignant with sin when it should be those latter peoples lives that should reflect God's standard in persistently and consistently deals with those who turn to Him but whose lives are consumed with evil.

These people fall down over and over again in their struggles, they confess, they pray, they repent, they fell down, they get up and dust themselves off, they are sincere, compared to others who do no such thing but are hypocrites and insincere and use grace and forgiveness as their personal license to sin.

Some are instantly delivered from sin that enslaves and compulsions and obsessions and addictions and these thing never bother them again such as sex or drugs or alcohol and this is wrongly made to be the standard because for everyone one that God chooses to remove these things instantly from there are thousands more who do not receive this type of blessing (God has His reasons) in such a fashion are held up against others in the church whom God chose not to deal with in this way. It is another reason why you rarely find such a struggling person in an institutional church because of this.

It is similar Alcoholics Anonymous. Even if you have one can of beer after 20 years of sobriety you are stripped of everything and are at step 1 again.

Both my dad and grandmother smoked cigarettes for decades and in both cases God led them to lay them down and they never touched them again. I have known many other people who God has dealt with differently concerning their sin.

Others I know, who are just as much saved and are Christians struggle with it.

The same applies to all sin.

Jesusinmyheart
May 11th 2007, 08:37 PM
Napsnsnacks,

a person which is truly born again, while still capable of sin, will try their best not to sin, and should steadily improve. Therein lies the difference of a trule born again believer, and one that isn't.

Yet again though, some take larger strides than others. you can't really judge anyone, unless you've seen where they came from and you see the fruits they produce as they are going.

ravi4u2
May 12th 2007, 03:00 AM
The following opinion is presented in part from Bible Class Commentary by Henry T. Mahan. I have not made distinction between his interpretation and my own.

This passage in Ga 4:21-31 presents an allegory or a story in which people, things and happenings have a symbolic meaning. To understand the allegory you have to read the passage in its full context, not only vs 24. Abraham had two sons, one by a servant, the other by his wife. Hagar, the servant, represented the covenant at Mount Sinai; Sarah, the free woman, represented the covenant of redemption through the gospel of Christ. The two sons represent two types of professors; legalists and Christians. Believers in Christ are like Isaac, and children of the promise; legalists are like Ishmael, men after the flesh.

A second principle is intended. Ishmael was 'born after the flesh', or by ordinary strength of natural birth (his mother being a young woman fit for conception). Issac was not conceived from such. His mother was ninety years old and unable to bear children, so he was born 'by promise', or by the miracle of God.

These two women represent two covenants. The covenant under the old, which was greatly mistaken (it was never given to save) and was called a covenant of works by those who cling to it. And the covenant of redemption under the new (Heb 8:7,8).

The Sinai covenant prefigured by Hagar produces children of bondage. It cannot produce heirs of life. Its means are human works, merit and fear, and is, like Jerusalem today, in bondage to the law, sin and the wrath of God. Just like Ishmael, followers of the law can never be included with the true heir of Abraham.

The Messianic kingdom of Christ is from above, not from Sinai. Redemption is in His sacrifice and not in the ordinances of the law. The covenant of redemption has its access to the throne of God through Christ. This covenant is free from the curse of the law and from the bondage of the law and is the mother of every believer. We are born of grace.

This is a prophecy from Isaiah 54:1 and seems to refer to the church as it was in the early days after our Lord's death under the ministry of the apostles. There were few believers in the city, but the Lord promises that she shall be a fruitful mother with many children.

We believers are children of the promise, as Isaac was. This is what the allegory demonstrates.

RW
What does the Bible say that is important...not the interpretation of man. Where does allegory end and actual begin...do we have scripture to interpret scripture...that is important.

napsnsnacks
May 12th 2007, 06:11 PM
What does the Bible say that is important...not the interpretation of man. Where does allegory end and actual begin...do we have scripture to interpret scripture...that is important.

There is something to be guarded against and that is interpreting scripture that does not require interpretation.

In most cases scripture means what it says and says what it means. It is not all written like prophecy or some other wisdom that takes the mind a bit above its physical understanding.

We have the same problem with secular law too. When the Pres signs a bill into law regardless whether it is a good law or bad, the horror just only starts then.

In reality, the written law at that point means what it says and says what it means, but, when lawyers both defense and prosecution and including law enforcement get their hands on it in the courtroom and out in the field, they "make" it what they want and they "interpret" it to suit their needs and or purpose at hand when "as is" they take it out of all context and application and proportion.

Plus it gets worse when lobbyists and special interests group write the law legislation and submit it to lawmakers instead of lawmakers making laws because when other interests write laws it is full of verbiage that is purposely vague to be used on the sly later then if what they are doing through that is corrupt enough they gotta pass more legislation to close "loopholes."

So our laws are "interpreted" when it is not supposed to be interpreted and the law says you can do this or can't do that.

That is one of the reasons or society is in the condition that it is in because our laws mean little to nothing and it means nothing for the reasons I gave.

When the scriptures are subject to this type of behavior (in just about every case some one or group wanting to minimize or rationalize or outright allow sin) then trouble starts both in church life an home life and personal life and every which way. It leads to cults, fringe groups, bad doctrine, false teachings, you name it, it happens.

Under these circumstance both the scriptures and the law cannot be trusted or taken for face value because none of it can be taken seriously and for the law you need a lawyer to tell you "what it really means" and the scriptures can't be trusted because each person or group will make it what they want so they tell you "what God really meant by that is."

This is why //the better// books expounding on scripture are much older works.

Jesusinmyheart
May 12th 2007, 10:43 PM
Under these circumstance both the scriptures and the law cannot be trusted or taken for face value because none of it can be taken seriously and for the law you need a lawyer to tell you "what it really means" and the scriptures can't be trusted because each person or group will make it what they want so they tell you "what God really meant by that is."
Yeshua was and is that Lawyer you're speaking of. He Explained it all. And he lived it, and taught others how to live.

One that trully seeks the Word, and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit will know the truth of how to interpret scripture and matters of the Law.


This is why books expounding on scripture are much older works.
What are you referring to with this statement ?

napsnsnacks
May 13th 2007, 12:21 AM
Yeshua was and is that Lawyer you're speaking of. He Explained it all. And he lived it, and taught others how to live.

One that trully seeks the Word, and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit will know the truth of how to interpret scripture and matters of the Law.

What are you referring to with this statement ?

I was not talking about OT Law with a capital L. I was speaking of secular law and I also used the term secular.

A person who has only read modern day books produced by preachers who were in turn indoctrinated AFTER the church fell apart with its liberalism and false teaching and false doctrine and the love of money and materialism and counterfeit spiritual gifts and false signs and wonders various ministrations and or gyrations would not know the contents of books expounding on scripture which were written before heresy to satisfy itching ears and the love of filthy lucre took over the church.

They actually believe that all this "stuff" is spiritual growth of the church over the decades since that is what they are taught. Very sad.

Neither do they know all these things are false since they have nothing to compare it to.

Jesusinmyheart
May 13th 2007, 01:29 AM
napsnsnacks,

i see you were talking about the secular law, but this applis to "the Law" also regarding Yeshua being He who came to set straight and explain it all.

I agree with you totally that there's been much indoctrination going on and that there's a lot of watered down stuff taught these days. Spiritual growth cannot happen on those premisis.

But God is able, and can raise a child of Abraham out of stones. Thing is, people need to start turning to the truth and nothing but the truth to be taught.

There are those that know the truth and teach it. In my learning the truth from the Word alone, i have been led across those that teach it also, so i know there are materials out there that people could compare what they learned to, but do you know how many are not willing to open their minds and hearts and listen ?

God has to lift the veil presently still upon their eyes.

We cannot do anything about that, other than continue to spread truth, so that once people wake up, they will see, and listen.

napsnsnacks
May 13th 2007, 04:32 AM
napsnsnacks,

i see you were talking about the secular law, but this applis to "the Law" also regarding Yeshua being He who came to set straight and explain it all.

I agree with you totally that there's been much indoctrination going on and that there's a lot of watered down stuff taught these days. Spiritual growth cannot happen on those premisis.

But God is able, and can raise a child of Abraham out of stones. Thing is, people need to start turning to the truth and nothing but the truth to be taught.

There are those that know the truth and teach it. In my learning the truth from the Word alone, i have been led across those that teach it also, so i know there are materials out there that people could compare what they learned to, but do you know how many are not willing to open their minds and hearts and listen ?

God has to lift the veil presently still upon their eyes.

We cannot do anything about that, other than continue to spread truth, so that once people wake up, they will see, and listen.

Have you ever noticed that with each new version (privately or organizationally owned, branded, patented, copyrighted, trademarked productions of the Word of God) of the Bible that comes along there are some "nuances" or "slight" changes, many in key scriptures that result in the complete switchover of points and premises an precepts or wisdom or whatever?

Politics and public opinion has taken a big toll on it too.

If the President doesn't veto H.R. 1592, the Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2007 how soon could you safely predict that a new privately or organizationally owned, branded, patented, copyrighted, trademarked production of the Bible will be produced that has no reference to same sex sex being a sin?

I am sure they are already on it, just in case.