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365_days_gone
May 17th 2007, 03:27 AM
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

???:confused:confused:confused

Beloved by God
May 17th 2007, 12:45 PM
This one also troubles me. I have met some very spiritually powerful women, some of whom were preachers. For women not to talk in church seems really weird to me, especially when I have heard some women give good testimony.

I think that verse might mean that no one should interrupt the preacher while he is preaching, and no one should interrupt the service and try to make it about them, or take away from what God is doing in the church.
I just don't understand why it seems to really focus on women not doing it.

Sold Out
May 17th 2007, 01:23 PM
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

???:confused:confused:confused

I understand this to mean that a women should not speak in a teaching capacity, such as a pastor.

TEITZY
May 17th 2007, 01:38 PM
In context, Paul deals with two main subjects in Chapter 14 - tongues & prophecy/preaching. So the silence mentioned in verse 34 would pertain to these two things. Verses 11:18-14:40 are specifically addressing proper conduct or order when the church gathers together (eg. Sunday worship). So Paul is teaching that the women should refrain from preaching/prophecying and speaking in tongues during corporate worship as this best reflects God's created order (see 1 Cor 11:3; 1 Tim 2:11-14), or as he puts it, "as the law also says". Of course those who disagree with me will simply say such passages are 'cultural' and therefore do not apply to churches today.

It should be noted that this prohibition is restricted to corporate worship/meetings and that women with the gifts of tongues or prophecy could still exercise these gifts at the appropriate times and places.

Cheers
Leigh

karenoka27
May 17th 2007, 02:27 PM
as I was reading this the following verses came to mind:
Titus 2:3The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,5To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed."


I don't understand why women today have such a hard time just obeying Scripture.

Sold Out
May 17th 2007, 02:32 PM
as I was reading this the following verses came to mind:
Titus 2:3The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,5To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed."


I don't understand why women today have such a hard time just obeying Scripture.


Love it! Speak the truth my friend!

Gary Rake
May 17th 2007, 03:45 PM
Dear Ones:
I guess I have a slightly different viewpoint on this topic.

Firstly, the women of Paul's day typically were not schooled and most could not read. You will read in Paul's writings that women ought not to be busy-bodies and gossipers etc. Evidently there was a decorum issue in the Corinthian services (also supported in his teachings about Spiritual Gifts and their presentation)and evidently the women were playing a part in the disruption.

Secondly, if he meant that a woman couldn't speak at all ever in church services "accroding to the law", or as I have also heard, that they cannot lead a man under any spiritual circumstances, why did God use Deborah in the OT to lead male warriors into battle? Why did He make her a judge among the people? It doesn't seem to make sense that He couldn't find a man to do it, b/c when he needed someone for Israel He had no trouble jacking up Gideon, a man, to fit the need.

Finally, Joel prophesies that God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh, male and female, and that they would prophesy. Now if a woman prophesies what better place to test it than in the presence of the elders who can properly scrutinize it as Paul requires?

For me I don't see this as a hard and fast "thou shalt shut up, woman!" directive but one that is intended to establish proper husband and wife order, Godly respect and respect for decorum in large meetings. In the chruch I was raised in it was ok for a woman to speak in small mixed groups. Well to me that doesn't make sense. If she can teach in a small group with men present, what's the difference between that and a large mixed assembly?

Rolland and Heidi Baker are missionaries to Mozambique. Both teach and preach. Both see miracles of healings and salvations daily. Last count 53 people have been raised from the dead by them and their indigenous pastors, 1000 souls saved per week and the feeding of 5000 orphans daily. Moslem radio in Mozambique has stated that because of Iris Ministiries, Islam is all but dead in Mozambique. This from a man and a woman, sometimes operating separately, sometimes together preaching and teaching in the churches. In any case she teaches their up-and-coming local pastors, she teaches in the churches she teaches in their schools of ministry. If I understand Paul's directive as most of the above posters have laid it out then I have trouble seeing how Heidi could be walking uprightly in their ministry. However, that the hand of God is on this ministry is incredibly evident, so like they said of Jesus, "you could only do these things if God was with you." I believe they are a couple walking in God's order and obviously then in His power.

If you're interested in reading the book "The Hungry Always Get Fed" by Rolland and Heide go to www.newwineministries.co.uk (http://www.newwineministries.co.uk) and click on the "New Wine Press" button, locate the book and order it. Regardless of how we all feel about the issue of women speaking in church, this book is a must read. I cried all the way through it. I know you will be amazed. I have heard her speak publicly and all I can say is, I've only heard one man in my whole life who even comes close to her in desire for the lost. If you would like to see their work in photo or blog/newsletter form go to www.irismin.org (http://www.irismin.org) You will be touched for sure.

Blessings to you all,
Gary

Frances
May 17th 2007, 05:00 PM
Good post Gary
Women not speaking was because at that time the men and women were separated - men on the floor, women in the gallery. . . . speaking to your husband would entail shouting.

As Gary says, if God did not want women to preach and teach He would not have given them the Gift and Annointing to do so - which He very obviously has done over the years. eg. Philip's 4 virgin daughters who prophesied (Acts 21:9) - we are not told Paul found any fault with them, even though he stayed many days with Philip . . .

(prophecying = forthtelling, which can = preaching and teaching)

Jemma Ash
May 17th 2007, 06:13 PM
um its actually 1 Corinthians 14:34....

i looked for chapter 18...hee...there isn't one...hee;)

HisGrace
May 18th 2007, 12:34 AM
Dear Ones:
I guess I have a slightly different viewpoint on this topic.
Firstly, the women of Paul's day typically were not schooled and most could not read. You will read in Paul's writings that women ought not to be busy-bodies and gossipers etc. Evidently there was a decorum issue in the Corinthian services (also supported in his teachings about Spiritual Gifts and their presentation)and evidently the women were playing a part in the disruption. I agree. Paul was setting up new churches in different towns, and he had to teach the congregations how to organize their meetings and retain proper order. They probably had formed a habit of chitchatting across the room, and as said, women traditionally are gossipers and busybodies, so they would have to be reminded to keep quiet and listen at the appropriate times.

Some time back I made a list of women who have had stewardship roles in the Bible. There are some other interesting comments by other posters as well. Paul especially utiliized their anointings to aid him in spreading the Good News -

Post #12
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=70198&highlight=Priscilla

Lars777
May 18th 2007, 08:23 PM
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

???:confused:confused:confused









As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. (1 Corinthians 14:33b-35 RSV)







No, the problem here is not a woman ministering in the church at all. That was proper, despite the traditional interpretation of these events in the last two centuries.

No, the problem was still, as the context makes clear, one of disorder and confusion. It probably grew out of the very freedom that women did have to minister in the church at Corinth. Both the Jewish community, and to a large degree the Greek community, put down the ministry of women.

Certainly the Jews did; they did not allow it at all, but here in a Christian church women were permitted to minister under the recognition of the principle of headship. As a consequence, some of them undoubtedly went too far.

This is a normal human tendency within all of us. They ran away with freedom. Some were doing this, as this account clearly suggests. They were asking questions and entering into debate on some of the issues that were being talked about and discussed in the meeting; thus they were turning it into a discussion group.

Some, as Paul indicated earlier, had abandoned the head covering, which, in the city of Corinth, was a sign that they did indeed appreciate and recognize the leadership order that God had instituted.


They were thus creating not only dissension, but, as he indicates here, a "shameful" situation. Non-Christians in the city were laughing at or disregarding the word of these Christians because of the violation in this regard.

That is what the apostle is concerned about. It is confirmed by his choice of words here. Notice he does not say it is forbidden for women to minister in the church.

Nor does he say it is forbidden for women to prophesy, or to pray, or to teach. He does not apply that term to any of these things. Women are forbidden, he says, to speak -- "the women should keep silence ... they are not permitted to speak."

There the word is laleo, which is the most common word for simply, conversation, talking, that is all. That was the problem. We could well interpret it, even, with the English word "chatter."

This is what was going on. Women were entering in and talking it over, and they got carried away and sometimes turned the meeting into a kind of an open chatterbox, especially because they were exercising a freedom they rightly possessed.

It is well known that garrulousness is a quality more frequently, perhaps, found in women than in men. Men can be loose-tongued and run off at the mouth too, but women often have this problem. There is the story of the woman who was rebuked for talking too much. She said, "Well, how can I know what I think if I haven't heard what I have to say?"

RSiscoe
May 19th 2007, 08:16 PM
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

???:confused:confused:confused

"women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission...If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church".

There are some parts of the Bible that are difficult to understand, but this isn't one of them. There is nothing vauge or ambiguous about what is being said

I find it interesting to see people attempting to "explain away" the very clear words of the Bible. If we are not willing to submit to the easy-to-understand parts of the Bible, just because it is politically incorrect, why would God ever help us to understand the more difficult and obscure passages?