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Pilgrimtozion
May 17th 2007, 03:49 PM
As a spin-off from another thread, I would like to ask the following question:

Can you show me from the Word of God that baptism is symbolic? Mind you, I am not looking for baptism saves vs. baptism does not save discussions. I merely want some discussion on whether baptism symbolizes something that has happened, something that is happening, or whether something actually happens when you are baptized.

In other words, does baptism merely symbolize my death with Christ, or do I actually partake of Christ's death by being baptized?

Toolman
May 17th 2007, 04:15 PM
Which immersion Pilgrim? Water, Christ, Spirit, fire?

Just to be clear.

Theophilus
May 17th 2007, 04:16 PM
Which immersion Pilgrim?

I love it...I heard John Wayne's voice when you "asked" this...:lol:

Pilgrimtozion
May 17th 2007, 04:19 PM
Apologies for the lack of clarity: the baptism in water.

Toolman
May 17th 2007, 04:22 PM
I love it...I heard John Wayne's voice when you "asked" this...:lol:

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1146848&postcount=75

:D

third hero
May 17th 2007, 04:38 PM
hoestly pilgrim,
before I even read the scriptures concerning baptism, I had this thought. Jesus did it, so I will too. It was symbolic to me of undergoing the same things that Christ did while He walked the earth. So, even before I cared about the implications, I felt it was still necessary, because Christ was baptized.

Pilgrimtozion
May 17th 2007, 04:40 PM
hoestly pilgrim,
before I even read the scriptures concerning baptism, I had this thought. Jesus did it, so I will too. It was symbolic to me of undergoing the same things that Christ did while He walked the earth. So, even before I cared about the implications, I felt it was still necessary, because Christ was baptized.

Interesting you should say that, 'cause I was 13 when I got baptized and my testimony was simply that I wanted to follow Jesus and He got baptized so I want to get baptized too! :)

DSK
May 17th 2007, 04:57 PM
"Circumcision among the ancients (so far as it was sacramental) was the same as baptism with us." (Zwingli)

Sold Out
May 17th 2007, 06:26 PM
As a spin-off from another thread, I would like to ask the following question:

Can you show me from the Word of God that baptism is symbolic? Mind you, I am not looking for baptism saves vs. baptism does not save discussions. I merely want some discussion on whether baptism symbolizes something that has happened, something that is happening, or whether something actually happens when you are baptized.

In other words, does baptism merely symbolize my death with Christ, or do I actually partake of Christ's death by being baptized?

I Peter 3:21, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

The greek word for 'like figure' is antitupos, which means 'a thing formed after some pattern' or 'a thing resembling another; it's counterpart'.

This same greek word is used in Hebrews 9:24, "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:"

Here we have a clear comparison between two scriptures regarding the word 'figure'. In I Peter 3, the 'figure' of salvation is baptism. In Hebrews 9, the 'figure' of heaven (where God dwells) is the holy place. Now we know that the holy place and heaven are not the same thing, as well as baptism and salvation are not the same thing. They simply 'represent' those things.

RogerW
May 17th 2007, 07:08 PM
I Peter 3:21, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

The greek word for 'like figure' is antitupos, which means 'a thing formed after some pattern' or 'a thing resembling another; it's counterpart'.

This same greek word is used in Hebrews 9:24, "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:"

Here we have a clear comparison between two scriptures regarding the word 'figure'. In I Peter 3, the 'figure' of salvation is baptism. In Hebrews 9, the 'figure' of heaven (where God dwells) is the holy place. Now we know that the holy place and heaven are not the same thing, as well as baptism and salvation are not the same thing. They simply 'represent' those things.

Good post! It (((should))) put to rest the symbolic representation of baptism.

RW

jesuslover1968
May 17th 2007, 08:33 PM
1 Peter 3:20-25
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


I just wanted to add a little more to the verses given, to show exactly what the symbolism actually points to, and that is saved by faith, not by works. If water baptism is required to be saved, then it is saved by works first, and then faith, and that is unbiblical. It was the faith of Noah and his family that put them in the ark. The water saving them was symbolic of baptism. It is an outward sign that we publically admit our faith in God and His promises. Jesus was baptized by water, and by the Holy Spirit. John came baptizing with water, but Jesus came baptizing with the Spirit.
Also, can anyone show me anywhere in the Bible where Jesus water baptized anyone? If it's in there, I have not seen it.
John 1:33
33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
God Bless.

Pilgrimtozion
May 17th 2007, 08:37 PM
Good post! It (((should))) put to rest the symbolic representation of baptism.

RW

Perhaps it should, but I am not satisfied with the response. To me, it seems as though the Scripture is being read the wrong way - perhaps partly due to the translation being used.

Baptism is described as being an antitype of what happened with Noah and the ark during the time of the flood. Within typology, however, it is the type that is the symbol, not the antitype! The baptism is the real thing!

Hebrews 9:24 only confirms this: the Temple is the type and figure of the antitype - the Temple in heaven! The Temple here on earth was the symbol, the Temple in heaven is no symbol at all!

The NASB gives a translation that sheds a totally different light on the passage: "And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you." You see, the Greek doesn't use the word figure, which is why the translation you use makes it confusing tempts you to interpret baptism as a figure. The phrase "corresponding to that" is in fact a very accurate translation of what is meant by the word antitupos.

In my opinion, therefore, this Scripture does not resolve the issue.

BlessedMan
May 17th 2007, 08:48 PM
Interesting you should say that, 'cause I was 13 when I got baptized and my testimony was simply that I wanted to follow Jesus and He got baptized so I want to get baptized too! :)
I believe baptism is symbolic, probably symbolic sacrifice of yourself to the faith that is baptising you. From a practical standpoint I think it does form a bonding point for people so that they can know that they have a faith and belief in common. When no declaration is made then you are just arguing from ignorance, never able to say this is true or false. In the case of baptism it probably is your symbolic way of saying that the belief system that Jesus dying on the cross cleans your sin away if you believe that and accept him for your savior makes sense to you. Unless you are baptized as a infant as I was the only time I was baptized.

Pilgrimtozion
May 17th 2007, 08:54 PM
I believe baptism is symbolic, probably symbolic sacrifice of yourself to the faith that is baptising you. From a practical standpoint I think it does form a bonding point for people so that they can know that they have a faith and belief in common. When no declaration is made then you are just arguing from ignorance, never able to say this is true or false. In the case of baptism it probably is your symbolic way of saying that the belief system that Jesus dying on the cross cleans your sin away if you believe that and accept him for your savior makes sense to you. Unless you are baptized as a infant as I was the only time I was baptized.

I have trouble with this when I look at Scriptures such as Romans 6:3: "Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?" If you read Acts, you will find the phrase of 'being baptized into Jesus' name referring to water baptism. This verse says that baptism into Jesus is baptism into His death. Paul doesn't say it is like...he says it is...

Sold Out
May 17th 2007, 08:58 PM
Perhaps it should, but I am not satisfied with the response. To me, it seems as though the Scripture is being read the wrong way - perhaps partly due to the translation being used.

Baptism is described as being an antitype of what happened with Noah and the ark during the time of the flood. Within typology, however, it is the type that is the symbol, not the antitype! The baptism is the real thing!

Hebrews 9:24 only confirms this: the Temple is the type and figure of the antitype - the Temple in heaven! The Temple here on earth was the symbol, the Temple in heaven is no symbol at all!

The NASB gives a translation that sheds a totally different light on the passage: "And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you." You see, the Greek doesn't use the word figure, which is why the translation you use makes it confusing tempts you to interpret baptism as a figure. The phrase "corresponding to that" is in fact a very accurate translation of what is meant by the word antitupos.

In my opinion, therefore, this Scripture does not resolve the issue.

The NASB is only a translation, just as the KJV (the one I used ) is. The greek word, however, is the same. It's ANTITUPOS, as defined in my post above.

BlessedMan
May 17th 2007, 09:05 PM
I have trouble with this when I look at Scriptures such as Romans 6:3: "Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?" If you read Acts, you will find the phrase of 'being baptized into Jesus' name referring to water baptism. This verse says that baptism into Jesus is baptism into His death. Paul doesn't say it is like...he says it is...
As I said in another recent post. You don't need to take the bible litterly all the time. If you do that you will be so open to cynics who will say you are just an idol worshiper, where is your God, is hethat Cross on the wall. Our proofs for believing Jesus is existant and that we can be with him and God will always be faith based and not based on the bible saying so.

Pilgrimtozion
May 17th 2007, 09:07 PM
The NASB is only a translation, just as the KJV (the one I used ) is. The greek word, however, is the same. It's ANTITUPOS, as defined in my post above.

I understand that, but I do not think you can give that translation, conclude that baptism is a symbol, and be done with it. If you study typology, you find out that types are the shadows of the real thing, the antitype. The antitype is the counterpart of the type, but this does not mean that baptism is symbolic - on the contrary! Of course it resembles the ark and all that - because the ark is a picture of baptism and what it does!

I feel you too easily discard these facts and the other Scriptures such as Romans 6 that speak of baptism as something that effectuates something as opposed to being merely a symbol.

Toolman
May 17th 2007, 09:08 PM
I have trouble with this when I look at Scriptures such as Romans 6:3: "Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?" If you read Acts, you will find the phrase of 'being baptized into Jesus' name referring to water baptism. This verse says that baptism into Jesus is baptism into His death. Paul doesn't say it is like...he says it is...

Pilgrim,

Baptized in Jesus' name and baptized into Jesus are not the same phrases.

One may interpret them meaning the same thing (and some do) but they may also be different things as the literal reading would indicate.

Pilgrimtozion
May 17th 2007, 09:10 PM
As I said in another recent post. You don't need to take the bible litterly all the time. If you do that you will be so open to cynics who will say you are just an idol worshiper, where is your God, is hethat Cross on the wall. Our proofs for believing Jesus is existant and that we can be with him and God will always be faith based and not based on the bible saying so.

I take the Bible literally where there is no indication given to take it non-literally. The fact that cynics laugh doesn't mean much to me. We are not talking about other situations and other places. We are talking about this passage here. If you seek to help me understand its meaning, please address the verse - not the things you addressed in its stead.

Pilgrimtozion
May 17th 2007, 09:14 PM
Pilgrim,

Baptized in Jesus' name and baptized into Jesus are not the same phrases.

One may interpret them meaning the same thing (and some do) but they may also be different things as the literal reading would indicate.

With the overwhelming amount of references to baptism in the Bible that refer to either Spirit or water baptism and the fact that the issues described in Romans 6 so closely resemble what baptism signifies...I find it hard to believe baptism would be something else here in Romans 6. I am open to having you show me...but please note the thoughts that lie at the foundation of this conclusion when you address the issue.

Toolman
May 17th 2007, 09:26 PM
With the overwhelming amount of references to baptism in the Bible that refer to either Spirit or water baptism

And fire. Not quite as much but it is mentioned.


and the fact that the issues described in Romans 6 so closely resemble what baptism signifies...

Can you clarify that for me a bit. What issues in Romans 6 and what does water baptism signify?


I find it hard to believe baptism would be something else here in Romans 6. I am open to having you show me...but please note the thoughts that lie at the foundation of this conclusion when you address the issue.

There are many good believers who believe that Romans 6 is speaking of water baptism. I am ok with that if they feel comfortable with that view.

My only point was that a literal reading of the passage renders it "immersed in Jesus Christ" which IMO points to an immersion in a person not an object (water).

To conclude water requires a non-literal reading of the text and interpretation and input from other parts of scripture. Which I am ok with, don't get me wrong.

I am also ok with those who believe the communion actually is the blood and body of Christ and not simply an emblem or symbol of His body and blood.

I think we can discuss it but I don't see it as essential doctrine personally.

Pilgrimtozion
May 17th 2007, 09:30 PM
Toolman,

What I am specifically referring to is dying, being buried, and being raised with Christ. Baptism signifies this death and resurrection with Jesus Christ. These are the issues addressed in the first part of Romans 6 - the resemblance with water baptism is simply too striking for me to interpret it as something else.

Toolman
May 17th 2007, 09:35 PM
Toolman,

What I am specifically referring to is dying, being buried, and being raised with Christ. Baptism signifies this death and resurrection with Jesus Christ. These are the issues addressed in the first part of Romans 6 - the resemblance with water baptism is simply too striking for me to interpret it as something else.

Pilgrim,

Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be saying that baptism is a sign of something (a symbol) that something being the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

Is water baptism a type of Christ's (and our) death, burial and resurrection (the antitype)?

Pilgrimtozion
May 17th 2007, 09:44 PM
Pilgrim,

Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be saying that baptism is a sign of something (a symbol) that something being the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

Is water baptism a type of Christ's (and our) death, burial and resurrection (the antitype)?

If you put it that way, yes. In one sense this is so, because Christ died 2000 years ago and we died with Him 2000 years ago and were raised with Him 2000 years ago. We, however, still need to choose to become partakers of that. Baptism is the expression of that choice with the result of the death and resurrection of Christ being effectuated in our lives at that moment. And as such, it is not a symbol but a reality that takes place at that moment.

RogerW
May 17th 2007, 10:32 PM
If you put it that way, yes. In one sense this is so, because Christ died 2000 years ago and we died with Him 2000 years ago and were raised with Him 2000 years ago. We, however, still need to choose to become partakers of that. Baptism is the expression of that choice with the result of the death and resurrection of Christ being effectuated in our lives at that moment. And as such, it is not a symbol but a reality that takes place at that moment.

What your saying then is that baptism (water) is an outward sign of an inward conversion, for apparently which you accepted/received? And that baptism (water) is the means by which your salvation is actually realized?

RW

davidturtledove
May 17th 2007, 10:34 PM
If you put it that way, yes. In one sense this is so, because Christ died 2000 years ago and we died with Him 2000 years ago and were raised with Him 2000 years ago. We, however, still need to choose to become partakers of that. Baptism is the expression of that choice with the result of the death and resurrection of Christ being effectuated in our lives at that moment. And as such, it is not a symbol but a reality that takes place at that moment.

one comment i might like to add about this has to do with personal experience.

about 20 years ago i had been born again but had realized 3 years after the spiritual awakening that i had not been baptized with water. I was baptized with water shortly after this realization in the name of the Father,Son, and Holy Spirit! Within in moments after the baptism i felt the presence of the holy spirit in my body. The best i can describe it is that my body had felt like a branch of a tree or some kind of plant that had gone through winter and was dry with little or no life in it then suddenly with the arrival of the spirit spring had come and the branch was green again and i could feel the life of it! It was a very pleasurable and clean experience! one definitely could feel the purity of the life giving spirit although after a few moments the sensation faded my soul was strengthened that day! This was a moment i should never forget!

Toolman
May 17th 2007, 10:42 PM
If you put it that way, yes. In one sense this is so, because Christ died 2000 years ago and we died with Him 2000 years ago and were raised with Him 2000 years ago.

Actually this gets into a bit of perspective. From God's perspective outside of time, yes, we are dead and raised with Christ.

From our perspective, bound by time, this has not happened in a real sense but we possess it by faith and hope. This is Paul's exhortation in Romans 8 that we wait patiently with endurance for the resurrection (which has not occurred yet for us).

Do we spiritually share in Christ's death and resurrection? I would say yes.
Have we physically shared yet? I would say no.

But we know we will, because of the firstfruits, so we wait patiently with endurance (Romans 8).


We, however, still need to choose to become partakers of that. Baptism is the expression of that choice with the result of the death and resurrection of Christ being effectuated in our lives at that moment. And as such, it is not a symbol but a reality that takes place at that moment.

Well, it obviously is a symbol (signifies, resembles to use your terms) because it is a type that points to an antitype. So to say that there is no symbolism in baptism is IMO a mistake.

Is it purely symbolic is a better question IMO (same with the communion).

DSK
May 17th 2007, 11:01 PM
I believe the following story may help to illustrate a point on this subject.

"A missionary told of witnessing for many years to a Moslem friend. She was soon to go home and would not be returning because of ill health. She earnestly pleaded with God for one more opportunity to witness the gospel to her friend. One day she saw the Moslem lady start down to the sacred river for a bath. The missionary quickly put some clothes in a box, tied the bag tight shut, and went down to the river and began dipping the box in the river. The Moslem lady asked her what she was doing and she replied that she was washing her clothes. Her friend smiled and said, "They will never get clean because the water cannot get inside to where the dirt is." The missionary asked, "Do you believe that water in which you are bathing can get into your heart where the sin is and wash it clean?" - source unknown

DSK
May 17th 2007, 11:13 PM
Toolman,

What I am specifically referring to is dying, being buried, and being raised with Christ. Baptism signifies this death and resurrection with Jesus Christ. These are the issues addressed in the first part of Romans 6 - the resemblance with water baptism is simply too striking for me to interpret it as something else.

Dying is not something you had to accomplish. Everyone who came into this world arrived already dead spiritually. Nobody was ever born spiritually alive. And since the spiritually dead are not aware of their condition, therefore they cannot desire to be made spiritually alive. God alone can give spiritual life, and He does so without any help from us. The spiritually dead cannot possibly assist God in bringing about their spiritual birth. A spiritual corpse is unable to raise itself to spiritual life. Understanding that will remove a lot of incorrect thinking on this subject.

Pilgrimtozion
May 18th 2007, 06:41 AM
What your saying then is that baptism (water) is an outward sign of an inward conversion, for apparently which you accepted/received? And that baptism (water) is the means by which your salvation is actually realized?

RW

I have stated in my OP that I do not wish to discuss this in this thread. Please refrain from going into that here.

Pilgrimtozion
May 18th 2007, 06:48 AM
Dying is not something you had to accomplish. Everyone who came into this world arrived already dead spiritually. Nobody was ever born spiritually alive. And since the spiritually dead are not aware of their condition, therefore they cannot desire to be made spiritually alive. God alone can give spiritual life, and He does so without any help from us. The spiritually dead cannot possibly assist God in bringing about their spiritual birth. A spiritual corpse is unable to raise itself to spiritual life. Understanding that will remove a lot of incorrect thinking on this subject.

Mate, your reasoning is fantastic but encounters one crucial problem: Romans 6 teaches that I died with Christ through baptism into Christ. Apparently, contrary to what you are saying here, there was some life that needed to die. As Galatians 2:20 says, I have been crucified with Christ. Yes, though I was spiritually dead, I was very much alive unto sin. And it is that life that needs to die.

I do not wish to comment on your thoughts concerning a spiritual corpse being able to raise itself; this would derail the thread. All I will say about it is that if I spiritually alive to sin, I can give that life over to be killed. And that is exactly what baptism does.

But let us strictly stick to the subject of the OP.

CFJ
May 18th 2007, 07:53 AM
Which immersion Pilgrim? Water, Christ, Spirit, fire?

Just to be clear.


You are making a good point here Toolman, immersion or baptism is not water only.

I truly believe that the following passages, some were discussed in this thread, refers to baptism into the body of Christ... and not water baptism.


By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. Whether we are Jewish or Greek, slave or free, God gave all of us one Spirit to drink.
(1Co 12:13)

Don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? When we were baptized into his death, we were placed into the tomb with him. As Christ was brought back from death to life by the glorious power of the Father, so we, too, should live a new kind of life.
(Rom 6:3-4)

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(Gal 3:27)

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
(Col 2:11-13)

They are like those who disobeyed long ago in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while Noah built the ship. In this ship a few people-eight in all-were saved by water. Baptism, which is like that water, now saves you. Baptism doesn't save by removing dirt from the body. Rather, baptism is a request to God for a clear conscience. It saves you through Jesus Christ, who came back from death to life.
(1Pe 3:20-21)

In 1Peter 3:20-21, I see it that we need to be in Christ, as Noah was in the ark, to be saved. When you are baptized into the body of Christ, it is the moment you accept Christ Jesus, the moment you kneel at the cross, the moment your heart is circumcised, the moment you are born again. For me personally, that is the only reason why this baptism can save us.

Also if one read the context in all those passages, we are refered to a baptism that raise us from the dead... we are resurrected. What baptism is this... water? When looking at the title of this thread, whether baptism is Actual or Symbolic, I would say it depends on what baptism you read into a specific passage. In all the refered instances above, as I see it, the baptism into the body of Christ is actual, but if you see it as water baptism, it make more sense to see it as symbolic.

DSK
May 18th 2007, 09:04 AM
Mate, your reasoning is fantastic but encounters one crucial problem: Romans 6 teaches that I died with Christ through baptism into Christ. Apparently, contrary to what you are saying here, there was some life that needed to die. As Galatians 2:20 says, I have been crucified with Christ. Yes, though I was spiritually dead, I was very much alive unto sin. And it is that life that needs to die.

I do not wish to comment on your thoughts concerning a spiritual corpse being able to raise itself; this would derail the thread. All I will say about it is that if I spiritually alive to sin, I can give that life over to be killed. And that is exactly what baptism does.

But let us strictly stick to the subject of the OP.

The only point I was trying to convey is, what sort of death is mentioned in Romans 6. It can't be referring to spiritual death. Secondly it can't possibly be referring a physical death. But as you have stated the death referred to in Romans 6 must be referring to dying to sin. Thirdly, I don't believe the waters of baptism actually put to death any sin. but rather at baptism, we make a outward profession and pledge to renounce sin, and to walk in newness of life. Putting sin to death then becomes progressive rather that instananeous. We all know from experience that sin has not been completely eradicated from our life. Albert Barnes makes the following comment on Romans 6:3 which I find I can agree with. "The simple argument in this verse and the two following is, that by our very profession made in baptism, we have renounced sin, and have pledged ourselves to live to God." Concerning that same verse Robertson's word pictures makes the following comment: "Were baptized into Christ (ebaptisthēmen eis Christon). First aorist passive indicative of baptizō. Better, “were baptized unto Christ or in Christ.” The translation “into” makes Paul say that the union with Christ was brought to pass by means of baptism, which is not his idea, for Paul was not a sacramentarian. Eis is at bottom the same word as en. Baptism is the public proclamation of one’s inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism."

In similar verses we see baptism being compared with circumcission, and which I believe gives proof that the OT practice of circumcission has been replaced in the NT with baptism:
Col 2:11 in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ;
Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Interesting comments on the above verses are as follows:

"Circumcision among the ancients (so far as it was sacramental) was the same as baptism with us." - Zwingli

Having been buried with him in baptism (suntaphentes autōi en tōi baptismati). Second aorist passive participle of sunthaptō, old word, in N.T. only here and Rom_6:4, followed by associative instrumental case (autōi). Thayer’s Lexicon says: “For all who in the rite of baptism are plunged under the water, thereby declare that they put faith in the expiatory death of Christ for the pardon of their past sins.” Yes, and for all future sins also. This word gives Paul’s vivid picture of baptism as a symbolic burial with Christ and resurrection also to newness of life in him as Paul shows by the addition “wherein ye were also raised with him” (en hōi kai sunēgerthēte). “In which baptism” (baptismati, he means). First aorist passive indicative of sunegeirō, late and rare verb (Plutarch for waking up together), in lxx, in N.T. only in Col_2:12; Col_3:1; Eph_2:6. In the symbol of baptism the resurrection to new life in Christ is pictured with an allusion to Christ’s own resurrection and to our final resurrection. Paul does not mean to say that the new life in Christ is caused or created by the act of baptism. That is grossly to misunderstand him. The Gnostics and the Judaizers were sacramentalists, but not so Paul the champion of spiritual Christianity. He has just given the spiritual interpretation to circumcision which itself followed Abraham’s faith (Rom_4:10-12). Cf. Gal_3:27. Baptism gives a picture of the change already wrought in the heart “through faith” (dia tēs pisteōs). - Robertson's Word pictures

Soj
May 18th 2007, 10:28 AM
In other words, does baptism merely symbolize my death with Christ, or do I actually partake of Christ's death by being baptized?Your *water* baptism was 'figurative' of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection:

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Many saved Christians have not and will not be baptised in water during their life on earth yet they will still go to heaven.

Now our *spiritual* baptism into Christ is another discussion entirely, and that one isn't figurative! Every Christian partook of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4) the moment they *believed* in the Lord Jesus Christ as their atoning, sacrificial Lamb...and water didn't play any part in that.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There are several other "baptisms" in the new testament, but the two above are the most important and most controversial.


Btw Pilgrimtozion, praise the Lord for your good voice, I enjoyed your singing. :)

watchinginawe
May 18th 2007, 11:26 AM
Can you show me from the Word of God that baptism is symbolic?
...
I merely want some discussion on whether baptism symbolizes something that has happened, something that is happening, or whether something actually happens when you are baptized.You seem to imply that "something that has happened" would be symbolic and "something that is happening, or something happens when" as effectual.

Let me first say that I believe water baptism is a command and not merely a symbolic ritual. I could say the same thing regarding the Lord's Supper. However, I beleve them both to be representations in recognition of "something that has happened".

We see in the conversion of the Ethiopian that the Spirit had already prepared the eunuch's heart to receive the Gospel. Philp shares the Gospel with the Eunuch (which obviously included the command about water baptism) and the Eunuch asks nearly the same question being asked by this thread:

What was preached: Acts 35:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

What was included in the preaching: 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

The pre-requisite of baptism given and recited: 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

We see that the pre-requisite of water baptism is a matter of the heart, thus what many refer to as the "inword work" of the Holy Spirit. We might suggest that verse 37 would be a good response to someone asking about whether they should partake in the Lord's Supper.

I corinthians 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

It is interesting to me that we have the same kinds of differences of belief regarding the Lord's Supper among the Body of Christ regarding whether it is about "something that has happened" or "something that is happening".

God Bless!

skc53
May 20th 2007, 06:26 PM
Baptism is pictorial of Christ's death, burial and resurrection. When a person is saved, the next thing is to be baptised. This shows, when the person is immersed under the water, this signifies Christ's burial, when you are raised up out of the water, it signifies Christ's resurrection, therefore a new creature in Christ.

strongmeat
May 20th 2007, 08:32 PM
Romans ch.6: 3-7 tells us:
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Baptism symbolizes the burial and resurrection of Christ. Baptism is a watery grave. We do not go into the water to die. Only the dead are buried. In baptism we symbolically bury the old man of sin. Why does Paul call him the old man? Because he is dead. When did he die? He died when he was crucified. The old man was crucified with Christ. When we repented and believed the gospel, when we made that decision to accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour, the old man was crucified. That is when we become free from sin. Verse 7 does not say that he that is buried and rises up is freed from sin but rather it tells us “For he that is dead is freed from sin.” It is improper to bury that which is alive. Baptism truly makes sense when we realise that we are saved from sin and that the old man is crucified. You can now bury him. If the person is not regenerated before baptism, that person ought not to be baptized for we would be burying someone alive and kicking.

DSK
May 20th 2007, 09:18 PM
If the person is not regenerated before baptism, that person ought not to be baptized for we would be burying someone alive and kicking.

Amen to that. That is the best saying I have read in this forum in quite some time. Thanks for that. :D

jiggyfly
May 21st 2007, 12:44 AM
If the person is not regenerated before baptism, that person ought not to be baptized for we would be burying someone alive and kicking.


Amen Strongmeat, and death comes by crucifixion not drowning.