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Teke
May 17th 2007, 07:12 PM
Are East and West Syrian Anaphoras used in Eucharistic liturgies developed from, or, are developments of the Jewish Birkat ha-mazon and Yotzer?

I've been studying St Jame's liturgy, used by the early Christian Church. That is my reason for asking about this subject. And he was Jewish, practiced in the liturgicals of the temple.

Anybody......

Studyin'2Show
May 18th 2007, 03:10 PM
Not being familiar with the Anaphoras used in Eucharistic liturgies, I really wouldn't even be able to begin to fairly address the question. I know that the Birkat Hamazon is an after meal blessing and that Yotzer has to do with blessing God as Creator. I had trouble finding the St James liturgy you referred to so I was unable to compare. Do you have a link that would allow us to look over this liturgy?

God Bless!

Teke
May 18th 2007, 03:27 PM
Anaphora's are Eucharistic prayers.
I haven't found a copy of the original of St James. But I did find a book that might help. Some of it is online here (http://books.google.com/books?id=bL15zRnSoPUC&dq=Essays+on+the+Early+Eastern+eucharistic+Prayers&pg=PA1&ots=9S_lQN_c2S&sig=A0xIAEJi34ID4RcF5F1y5CQNT3s&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fq%3DEssays%2Bon%2Bthe%2BEarly%2BEastern%2 Beucharistic%2BPrayers%26sourceid%3Dmozilla-search%26start%3D0%26start%3D0%26ie%3Dutf-8%26oe%3Dutf-8%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=1#PPA153,M1).

There is a St James liturgy that came into use in the 5th century. But it is not the original. The Coptic Orthodox Chruch holds that their St Cyril liturgy is that of St James. I believe this means that St Cyril developed his from St James.

I do believe that the prayers (anaphora's) came from the Judaic style. As Orthodoxy is very similar in praxis in this area of worship. They do hours of prayers, as did the Jews. IMO the early Christian church incorporated this practice into their Eucharistic prayers. Since worship centered around the celebration of the Eucharist.

literaryjoe
May 18th 2007, 05:43 PM
Are East and West Syrian Anaphoras used in Eucharistic liturgies developed from, or, are developments of the Jewish Birkat ha-mazon and Yotzer?

I've been studying St Jame's liturgy, used by the early Christian Church. That is my reason for asking about this subject. And he was Jewish, practiced in the liturgicals of the temple.

Anybody......The transition from fixed themes to fixed specific prayers was occurring during the same time period as the development of the Orthodox liturgies. Yotzer is part of the larger Sh'ma and it's Blessings. Yotzer follows Bar'khu (Call to Prayer) and precedes the Birkhat HaTorah, which all precede the Sh'ma itself. The Sh'ma and it blessings most definitely influenced the early liturgical development of the church. In my opinion, Birkat HaMazon was fixed fairly late, though its practice was one of the earliest Jewish liturgies.

In the time of Yeshua, rather than there being fixed prayers there were fixed themes and highly educated prayer leaders in each synagogue called a Shaliach Tsibbur who were able to extemporize on the fixed themes, while varying the particular content. The fixing of liturgy happened progressively as the unifying influence of the Temple became further and further distant (in time and geography).

There's a critical reconstruction of Yotser in Vol 1 of the series My People's Prayer Book: Traditional Prayers, Modern Commentaries edited by R. Lawrence Hoffman

For further research I also recommend Jewish Liturgy: A Comprehensive History by Ismar Elbogen (translated into English by Ramond Scheindlin).

The Jewish Encyclopedia discusses how much of the Apostolic Constitutions and Didache are actually re-workings of pre-existing Jewish documents, and that discussion may be helpful to your investigation. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=343&letter=D

Teke
May 18th 2007, 06:12 PM
Thanks for the info Joe.:)

Speaking of Apostolic Constitutions and Didache.........
I found an outline of The Liturgy of Hippolytus (which is an early form) online here (http://www.magma.ca/~stmarks/eucharist1.html). It's not long. Could you take a look an tell me about any differences with the Jewish synagogue services?

Teke
May 29th 2007, 02:06 PM
and that discussion may be helpful to your investigation. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=343&letter=D

That link came up as Apache Tomcat...???:crazy:

literaryjoe
May 29th 2007, 04:30 PM
That link came up as Apache Tomcat...???:crazy:

Try again in a few days: I went to their main site and it says the site is temporarily unavailable.

literaryjoe
May 30th 2007, 02:58 PM
It appears to be back online now:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=343&letter=D&search=Didascalia

Teke
May 30th 2007, 04:20 PM
It appears to be back online now:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=343&letter=D&search=Didascalia

I tried and it isn't working. I'm getting the same screen of jibberish as before.

literaryjoe
May 30th 2007, 07:25 PM
I saved the article to pdf and you can download it here (http://www.cyberhedge.net/docs/Didascalia_JE.pdf).

Teke
May 30th 2007, 11:46 PM
Thank you LJ. :)
I'm reading it now.

Teke
May 31st 2007, 02:08 AM
I'm only half way through LJ, and I can tell you this sounds very similar to Eastern Orthodox Christianity. And the particular branch that one could presently observe all this, in it's most original form is
the Coptic Orthodox (Syrian). The You Tube site has some clips of Syrian Orthodox Christians worship services.

Things that make you go hmmm......:hmm: :spin:

Teke
May 31st 2007, 03:22 PM
Thanks LJ for the info. I can tell you for certain, that the modern prayers do not include any ill speech against the Jews, as this article has mentioned.

EO has longer and shorter versions of liturgies. I printed out pages 12-14 because they specifically address the liturgy. And I was very pleased to read of the Trisagion prayer, as it is one of my favorites.
Here is the EO form from St John Chrysostom's liturgical format.

"O Holy God, who restest in thy holy Holy Place. Who art hymned by the Seraphim with thrice holy cry, and glorified by the Cherubim, and worshipped by every heavenly power. Who out of nothing hast brought all things into being. Who hast created man after Thine own image and likeness and hast adorned him with Thine every gift. Who give to him that askest wisdom and understanding. Who despises not the sinner. But has appointed repentance unto salvation. Who has vouchsafed unto us, Thy humble and unworthy servants, even in this hour to stand before the glory of Thy holy altar and to offer Thee worship and praise which are due unto Thee. Thyself, O Master, accept even from the mouths of us sinners, the hymn of the Trisagion. And visit us in Thy goodness, forgive us every transgression both voluntary and involuntary, sanctify our souls and bodies, and grant us to serve Thee in holiness all the days of our life.
Through the intercessions of the saints, who from the beginning have been well pleasing unto Thee. For holy art Thou, O our God, and unto Thee we ascribe glory, to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen

Before this prayer we sing the Trisagion hymn. Which is a short hymn.
"Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us. (3 times)
Gory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages Amen. Holy Immortal have mercy on us. Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us."
Personally, my hands can't resist going upward when singing this hymn. Not my arms, but my hands. They just turn to open for the blessing. :saint:

Teke
May 31st 2007, 04:17 PM
I have a question on the article from the section "The Seven Benedictions".
It reads, "his body being formed of the four bodily elements, his soul endowed with five senses as a new creation out of nothing, and his mind being the charioteer of the soul".

Can you explain this more? What are the four bodily elements, five senses etc. spoken of? Or do you have a ref. I can read..............

literaryjoe
May 31st 2007, 08:09 PM
I have a question on the article from the section "The Seven Benedictions".
It reads, "his body being formed of the four bodily elements, his soul endowed with five senses as a new creation out of nothing, and his mind being the charioteer of the soul".

Can you explain this more? What are the four bodily elements, five senses etc. spoken of? Or do you have a ref. I can read..............
I'm not familiar with it, but it sounds like a kabbalistic reference, probably from the Zohar. I've never read the Zohar, but that is where I would suggest you look.

literaryjoe
May 31st 2007, 08:12 PM
Come to think of it you might also check Philo. This sounds similar to stuff he writes about in "On the Creation" (Check sections 40-50, somewhere around there...I think he talks about the four elements of Creation)

Yonge translated an English edition of Philo that is pretty widely available online.

literaryjoe
Jun 13th 2007, 03:10 AM
I've found that Jewish Liturgy and Its Development by A.Z. Idelsohn can be more straight to the point then the book I recommended earlier (Jewish Liturgy: A Comprehensive History by Ismar Elbogen)

I'm sorry it took me so long, but here are some thought about The Liturgy of Hippolytus and its comparison to Jewish Litury.

First, for comparative purposes, here is the basic structure of almost every Jewish service:

Psalms and/or preliminary blessings
Sh'ma, with blessings before and after (morning and evening only)
Amidah, or Sh'moneh Esrei (Eighteen Benedictions)
Reading of the Torah (Monday, Thursday, Sabbath and festivals, morning service only, often followed by a sermon)
Musaf (Sabbath and festivals only)
Aleinu (praising God as King)
Mourners' Kaddish
Closing Hymn
So, what Hippolytus calls the Introit, would be comparable or at least similar to the Psalms and blessings of the Barkhu, etc. Their content shares little however.

Hippolytus skips the Sh'ma

The section titled "Prayers of the People" would be comparable to the Amidah (Standing Prayers), but again the content shares almost nothing. One might consider "Prayer of the People" a super-condensed version of the Amidah.

The readings and the homily could be considered equivalent to the Reading of the Torah, but they are out of order. In Hippolytus they come before the Amidah/Prayers of the People rather than after like in the Jewish liturgy.

There is a section called Offerings or Korbanot that is slightly similar to the Anaphora and Eucharist, but it is a bit of a stretch, and it is again out of order with the Jewish liturgy, as this is preparatory to the Sh'ma in the Siddur. In the Jewish liturgy they recite the various offerings of the Temple service and this could be compared with the Eucharist in which the offering of Yeshua is memorialized...

In the Liturgy of Hippolytus there is no concluding section that praises God as King like the Aleinu. There is a striking comparison between the Lord's Prayer and what is called Elohai Netzor or the concluding prayer of the Amidah. Now the Elohai Netzor is standard today (it is attributed to Mar son of Rabina), but it appears that in Yeshua's day each rabbi had his own personalized conclusion to the Amidah and the Lord's Prayer seems to be Yeshua's. Anyway, putting the Lord's Prayer toward the wrap up of the Eucharist is another similarity.

So, I can see definite parallels, but it is definitely not an exact take off from the Jewish liturgy. However, if one allows for the fact that today's liturgy has been standardized and that it was not standardized in Yeshua's day, then there is more room to allow that the Liturgy of Hippolytus may reflect more closely one geographical locale's synagogue liturgy from the 1st or 2nd century.

Teke
Jul 25th 2007, 02:59 PM
I figured I post on this in this thread, since it's already on the early prayers and prayer in general.

Literary Joe sent me a link to some prayers.
http://ffoz.org/blogs/2007/07/4th_ce...ns_prayed.html
Comparison of the Didache and the Amidah.

I wanted to comment on this a bit having looked over it. These are the same prayers said by eastern Christians. They are just worded a bit differently because of language and understanding. We do pray in the prayers called the Trisagion and Thanksgiving prayer these same things noted in the Didache and Amidah. The terminology is all that differs. Like instead of "eternal sabbath", we say "eternal rest" and instead of "eternal feasts" we pray "feastival unceasing".

It is a misnomer of the article to state the prayers as "Catholic" in relating to any one religion of Christianity, or to say that catholics changed anything. A Syrian Orthodox Christian (a catholic religion, as in meaning "liturgical") would be insulted by such an idea, as their prayers are exactly as they have been (including in original language) since the beginning of the Church.
It would be equally unjust to call them only Jewish in relation to Judaism.
They are simply prayers, psalms and hymns of worship to God.

So just for the record, catholics (Orthodox, Roman, Anglican, Lutheran etc.) aren't doing anything different with liturgical prayers than was already established traditionally.:)

literaryjoe
Jul 25th 2007, 03:17 PM
I think it is a little hasty to say that it's not accurate to call some of the interpolations in the article "Catholic." Granted, it is imprecise use of the term, but the blog doesn't mention any of the later additions/editing of the Didache, only those things that are clearly original.

It would be an entirely different article to discuss those things that are interpolations. It is fact that they exist, but you won't probably won't find FFOZ discussing it.

I would certainly agree that liturgical denominations are imitating the same things that have been done in worship of God for millenia, however, quite a few changes have been made in the Anglican, Lutheran and Roman Catholic liturgies. I'm not really up to speed on Orthodox liturgy, so I couldn't comment.

There is a fascinating Anglican Order of Service written in the 1920's by Rev. Paul Phillip Levertoff who was an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi converted to Christianity and ordained an Anglican priest. It pulls directly from the synagogue liturgy and the Christian liturgical tradition.

Titled The Order of Service of the Meal of the Holy King: A Hebrew-Christian Liturgy it is a fascinating study in the comparisons of the two traditions. It can be downloaded here (http://www.afii.org/mjbooks/Levertoff.Liturgy.pdf).

By the way, the link didn't work when I clicked on it from your post...I have no idea why, but just in case I've put in here (http://ffoz.org/blogs/2007/07/4th_century_christians_prayed.html).

P.S. I'm curious why you understood "catholic" as "liturgical" rather than "universal" ? I believe the author of the blog used the word referring to the proto-RCC.

Teke
Jul 26th 2007, 01:27 PM
P.S. I'm curious why you understood "catholic" as "liturgical" rather than "universal" ? I believe the author of the blog used the word referring to the proto-RCC.

Personally I see "catholic" as meaning both liturgical and universal. But the average evangelical sees catholic as liturgical (and relates that to the RC only). Which is why they always go on about 'traditions of man' against a concept (what liturgical is) they don't understand. IOW a stereotype in the US.
Certain words bring about preconceived thoughts. Another example would be ecclesiastical.

I try wording things all sorts of ways for others to understand me. And I get plenty of experience in being accused of all sorts of falsehoods because of misunderstanding. But one can only, "dumb it down" as they say, so much. Sometimes one has to wait for others to come up some before they can reach them. ;)

literaryjoe
Jul 27th 2007, 01:07 AM
Personally I see "catholic" as meaning both liturgical and universal. But the average evangelical sees catholic as liturgical (and relates that to the RC only). Which is why they always go on about 'traditions of man' against a concept (what liturgical is) they don't understand. IOW a stereotype in the US.
Certain words bring about preconceived thoughts. Another example would be ecclesiastical.understood.


I try wording things all sorts of ways for others to understand me. And I get plenty of experience in being accused of all sorts of falsehoods because of misunderstanding. But one can only, "dumb it down" as they say, so much. Sometimes one has to wait for others to come up some before they can reach them. ;)hmm. I'm not quite sure how to take that...;)

Teke
Jul 27th 2007, 01:46 PM
hmm. I'm not quite sure how to take that...;)


Your not one who has a limited vocabulary.:)
But you know there are those who do, and just refuse to study to further their understanding. Preferring to accuse others from a limited understanding.
I can recall some of the strangest accusations when I first joined this board. One of my bibles was checked for accuracy. I was accused of new age theology while presenting the most ancient teachings of Christianity......the list goes on.

I find it very strange how easily all sorts of new scriptural teachings are freely accepted, while the historically tried and true is glossed over without even raising an eyebrow.
Personally, I've always learned everything from history. From my beginnings as a child and learning from my family the basics of life from their own histories and then in school learning history. Which carried over into my religious education by joining, in my beginnings, a Baptist church which taught the scriptures from a historical perspective, and ended in the historical Eastern Orthodox Church.

My own fathers best advice was to keep learning and not stop learning. And not to just believe anything that someone tells you, but to find out for yourself. Had he lived long enough he would have seen me become a Christian teacher. I like to think he knows and is well pleased. :hug:
And the learning continues..............even tho it comes with much sorrow.(Ecc. 1:18)