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Delia
Jul 3rd 2007, 02:29 AM
Nowadays, are there a lot of believers who do not see the need to join a church?

After reading the tread on pride in church, Iím wondering because Iím turning into one of them but it wasnít intentional. I moved here (a small town) a year ago and still havenít decided on which church to go to.

Out of guilt (for not going to church), Iím actually spending more quiet time with God. He is teaching me to be a praying Christian, to travail for lost and hurting people. Also, I visit this board more often and it has been a blessing!

I wonít go as far as saying that we donít need churches; just that church duties kept me busy but not closer to God (again, thatís just me). Churches are not perfect and most have hidden agendas (for men to be glorified). But I miss corporate worship and fellowship with good church friends. So Iím not sure if this is a phase Iím going through or is God teaching me something new?

Hope some of you can share, thanks! :)

royo
Jul 3rd 2007, 04:29 AM
Hello Delia.

I too do not go to church much, though I go to Bible study each Tuesday.
To me, that is what fills my need for fellowship, spiritually, and I am not "forsaking the assembling of ourselves together."
I have been a Christian for 30 years, and God showed me from the beginning that my real growth in Him would come from spending time in the Word, and in prayer. (I have a plaque on my wall that says, PRAYER AND THE WORD).
I consider it a blessing that He showed me early on the difference between 'religion', and a spiritual life in Him. Understand, I DO NOT speak against church, but I do not like most 'religion'. To me, their is a difference. When we gather each Tuesday for Bible study, to me we are having church.
Here is how Paul spoke about our many denominations.
"....for where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, 'I am of Paul,' and another, 'I am of Apollos,' are you not carnal?" [ 1 Cor. 3:3,4].
(today it is 'I am a Baptist,' and 'I am a Methodist,' etc.).
So, though I love the Lord with all my heart, and crave fellowship, I am so glad He showed me the many flaws in 'religion'.
Bless you, and just keep obeying Matthew 6:33, and you will do well.

AliveinChristDave
Jul 3rd 2007, 04:35 AM
I may be a poor example or good example, depending on what you are looking for.
I was a faithful church member for many years, serving as a pastor/teacher, and elder. (not all at the same time)
I had a situation as you, finding myself in a strange city away from most of my brothers and sisters in the Lord I'd attended church with in the past.
I prayed but the Lord never really laid any particular place on my heart to serve and fellowship.
That's been 10 years ago and the situation hasn't changed, but I have. God has made it clear to me that I'm a priest and that I have the right to enter into His presence and the right to learn from Him.
My wife and I at times miss going to an organized church, but frankly, we have grown past what everyone we know of teaches.
The Lord is real to us. We experience His grace and mercy daily as we pray and study and seek His will.
You have to get over the habit of self condemnation for not going to church. And you have to realize that if you are to be fed or taught it's going to have to come from the Lord to you directly.
God says "whosoever" can come. That's individual.
As a child of the father, you have the right to enter into His presence through the flesh of Jesus Christ and there fellowship with Him.
Our fellowship with others is when we meet with fellow believers who believe as we do. We don't have scheduled meetings-Just when the Lord puts us together as a group.
I'm not anti-church. But I am Pro-individual responsibility when it comes to knowing and doing the will of the Lord.
If you believe God has placed His name on you then you have the right to fellowship together with two or three others in His name (usually that's the wife/husband and kids) and have Christ in the midst.
I hope I wasn't confussing. It's wonderful to walk in the liberty of life in Christ.

Tanya~
Jul 3rd 2007, 05:23 AM
Nowadays, are there a lot of believers who do not see the need to join a church?

Sadly, yes, and for a variety of different reasons. But every Christian needs to be part of a local church. I need one, I want one, but can't find one. :(


I visit this board more often and it has been a blessing!

I agree, but it really can't substitute for face-to-face "one another" ministry, where each believer is equipped and given opportunity to function as part of the body. I think the popularity and proliferation of forums like this are evidence that people are seeking something they can't find in their church -- a voice, perhaps, an opportunity to serve in a way that the local churches don't allow... I don't know what it is. But if we all were able truly to serve in our local churches, would we really be spending much time on this board? Would there be this many Christians on a board like this?

I think this board serves a great purpose. I just wish, with all my heart, that the church was fulfilling it. Because I would rather sit in a living room with you and discuss things than sit alone at my keyboard, not seeing your face, not hearing your voice, not knowing you personally, and you not knowing me, not even talking to one another at the same time.


I wonít go as far as saying that we donít need churches; just that church duties kept me busy but not closer to God (again, thatís just me).

I think the churches have lost focus on what our duties really are, and what the leadership is really supposed to be doing. We're supposed to minister to one another in practical ways, encourage and exhort one another, pray for one another. The leaders are supposed to equip us to do that. But we have to come to the internet for that, and interact with people on the opposite side of the country. The best we can do for a smile and a hug is :) and :hug:. What is wrong with this picture? Am I the only one who is troubled by this? Maybe it's just me... but the fact that there are so many here, tells me that maybe it isn't just me.


I miss corporate worship and fellowship with good church friends.

Me too. Very much. :(


So Iím not sure if this is a phase Iím going through or is God teaching me something new?

I think it might have something to do with the prophesied 'falling away' and 'love growing cold' that precedes the coming of the Lord. I'm glad to hear that you use the time to draw near to God. I had to leave my last church because it was drawing me away from the Lord, though in a different way than your experience with too much busy-ness. My church just lacked spiritual life, plain and simple. It is full of money, full of activity, and full of people, but empty of life.

There have been times throughout history when the people of God have been attacked. Sometimes it was with overt persecution, sometimes it was by seduction by various things of the world. That's what I think the churches in my area have succumbed to, and it is no longer about the worship of God. We think we are "rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing" and therefore don't realize that we are "wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked."

I know what Jesus says to the church of Laodicea, but what is an individual to do when the church just continues in its lukewarmness? It's so hard to be isolated, and not part of the living local body.

I would give up if I didn't know that this was one of the signs of the last days. Like you, I stay near to God, and we keep our family in the word.

jiggyfly
Jul 3rd 2007, 11:56 AM
There is only one connection that determines whether a person is part of the local expression of the ekklesia, and that is a person's connection with Christ. Which is why it is called Christ' body and not the body of Luther, the body of Wesley or the body of Calvin. A good friend of mine says "Jesus isn't all you need until Jesus is all you got". As the Lord is bringing us into His purpose he is "calling us out" from religion and good works. As we mature in the Lord we go from doing church to being the Church.

What typically happens in a liturgical meeting within the religious institution is really not for God but for self. The evidence lies within the variety of liturgy. Ministering to the Lord is lost within this system, it is really about man and all his needs. Generally speaking it is very carnal, full of man-made principles and concepts. How many times have you heard "welcome to the House of God", this is an outright lie, a deception that is not only unscriptural but one that wars against the very purpose of Father. We as believers are His house, not some building with a steeple. Those who use this term are either ignorant of God's purpose and desire or in outright rebelion to it. It really reveals the state of immaturity that exist among the participants.

God's purpose is not reached by merely reaching the lost, the goal is for us all to become mature. Paul makes this very clear in Ephesians 4:11-16.

11 He is the one who gave these gifts to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. 12 Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ, 13 until we come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature and full grown in the Lord, measuring up to the full stature of Christ.
14 Then we will no longer be like children, forever changing our minds about what we believe because someone has told us something different or because someone has cleverly lied to us and made the lie sound like the truth. 15 Instead, we will hold to the truth in love, becoming more and more in every way like Christ, who is the head of his body, the church. 16 Under his direction, the whole body is fitted together perfectly. As each part does its own special work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body is healthy and growing and full of love.

I know that many would read what I posted and be offended but it is the truth. Believe me when I say I am not popular at all in my community. It's time for the bride to grow up and come out from those who desire to be envied by the world. We should only be concerned and motivated by the affections of Jesus. The world hates Jesus. so why should we, His promised bride want the world to feel differently about us?

May HolySpirit help us truely become His beloved having eyes and hearts for Him only.

Sold Out
Jul 3rd 2007, 12:13 PM
Nowadays, are there a lot of believers who do not see the need to join a church?

After reading the tread on pride in church, Iím wondering because Iím turning into one of them but it wasnít intentional. I moved here (a small town) a year ago and still havenít decided on which church to go to.

Out of guilt (for not going to church), Iím actually spending more quiet time with God. He is teaching me to be a praying Christian, to travail for lost and hurting people. Also, I visit this board more often and it has been a blessing!

I wonít go as far as saying that we donít need churches; just that church duties kept me busy but not closer to God (again, thatís just me). Churches are not perfect and most have hidden agendas (for men to be glorified). But I miss corporate worship and fellowship with good church friends. So Iím not sure if this is a phase Iím going through or is God teaching me something new?

Hope some of you can share, thanks! :)

Jesus told us we should 'light our candle' from the local church.

Matthew 5:14-16, "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

We know, according to Revelation chapters 2-4, that the local church is the candlestick.

jiggyfly
Jul 3rd 2007, 12:46 PM
Jesus told us we should 'light our candle' from the local church.

Matthew 5:14-16, "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

We know, according to Revelation chapters 2-4, that the local church is the candlestick.

I really don't see anywhere in the scriptures that Jesus told us to even light our candles, let alone to light them from the local church. When we become untied with Christ we become part of the local ekklesia without even coming in physical contact with another believer. Jesus is life and He is the one who baptizes with HolySpirit and fire not the local gathering. In the book of Revelation the candle sticks are representative of the believers in those communities and not what is generally projected today in reference to the local church. It's not the 1st, 2nd or 407th Homiletical Hermeneutical Philosophical Apostolic Church of Christ. This is very carnal. The scriptures tell me that the Church bears His name not their own. The church, local or colectively is not the dispenser of Life or Spirit, Jesus is. The church doesn't do the pouring God does. We as the Church are just witnesses to the work of the Lord.

Sold Out
Jul 3rd 2007, 02:47 PM
I really don't see anywhere in the scriptures that Jesus told us to even light our candles, let alone to light them from the local church. When we become untied with Christ we become part of the local ekklesia without even coming in physical contact with another believer. Jesus is life and He is the one who baptizes with HolySpirit and fire not the local gathering. In the book of Revelation the candle sticks are representative of the believers in those communities and not what is generally projected today in reference to the local church. It's not the 1st, 2nd or 407th Homiletical Hermeneutical Philosophical Apostolic Church of Christ. This is very carnal. The scriptures tell me that the Church bears His name not their own. The church, local or colectively is not the dispenser of Life or Spirit, Jesus is. The church doesn't do the pouring God does. We as the Church are just witnesses to the work of the Lord.

We are the candle...the candlestick is the local church. Jesus told us to 'let our light shine' as a lit candle. Rev 2-4 CLEARLY states the candlesticks are the local churches!!!!

I understand the church as body apart from any local organization, but we are commanded to assemble together in local congregations. That is why we have PASTORS, DEACONS, ELDERS. Without the local church, none of these men would be necessary.

If you witness to people and they get saved...where are you going to take them to grow? THE LOCAL CHURCH. Or you could bring them to your house, in which case you would become a church yourself.

AliveinChristDave
Jul 3rd 2007, 05:33 PM
We are the candle...the candlestick is the local church. Jesus told us to 'let our light shine' as a lit candle. Rev 2-4 CLEARLY states the candlesticks are the local churches!!!!

I understand the church as body apart from any local organization, but we are commanded to assemble together in local congregations. That is why we have PASTORS, DEACONS, ELDERS. Without the local church, none of these men would be necessary.

If you witness to people and they get saved...where are you going to take them to grow? THE LOCAL CHURCH. Or you could bring them to your house, in which case you would become a church yourself.

When Christ addressed the local assemblies in Revelation he told each on of them that "if any man hear my voice--etc." Even though He was addressing local churches the invitation was to individuals to overcome.

That's the way it's always been. Individually we're responsible to the Lord for our actions as believers. No one will stand before God and be allowed the excuse that they didn't overcome because their church didn't.

On the other hand, when God judges the great whore in Rev. all those who are part of it will be judged. That's why Paul was so clear in II Cor. 6:7 to come out from among them and be separate.

God's defination of a local church is in Matt. 18:20--"where two or three are gathered together in my name."

In Acts the believers went from house to house worshipping the Lord. Paul got letters to go to the houses to find and kill the believers.

Somewhere along the line men decided to "build an house for the name of the Lord" and we ended up with the situation we are in today. But God is very clear in stating that we are the house of God. (Hebrews 3:6--whose house ye are--"

We are Bethel. We're where the ladder exists to His presence.

Fellowship with other like minded believers is wonderful, but God help us if we relinquish our spiritual responsibilities to someone who knows little of the things of the Lord simply for the sake of belonging to a church.

Sold Out
Jul 3rd 2007, 05:48 PM
When Christ addressed the local assemblies in Revelation he told each on of them that "if any man hear my voice--etc." Even though He was addressing local churches the invitation was to individuals to overcome.

That's the way it's always been. Individually we're responsible to the Lord for our actions as believers. No one will stand before God and be allowed the excuse that they didn't overcome because their church didn't.

On the other hand, when God judges the great whore in Rev. all those who are part of it will be judged. That's why Paul was so clear in II Cor. 6:7 to come out from among them and be separate.

God's defination of a local church is in Matt. 18:20--"where two or three are gathered together in my name."

In Acts the believers went from house to house worshipping the Lord. Paul got letters to go to the houses to find and kill the believers.

Somewhere along the line men decided to "build an house for the name of the Lord" and we ended up with the situation we are in today. But God is very clear in stating that we are the house of God. (Hebrews 3:6--whose house ye are--"

We are Bethel. We're where the ladder exists to His presence.

Fellowship with other like minded believers is wonderful, but God help us if we relinquish our spiritual responsibilities to someone who knows little of the things of the Lord simply for the sake of belonging to a church.


I agree 100% with what you stated. The church, as a living organism, is the worldwide body of believers that have trusted Christ for salvation.

But we have to be careful not to draw attention away from the local church and it's purpose in furthering God's Kingdom. We are commanded to assemble together for fellowship, exhortation, and teaching. We have to have a place to bring new converts so they can grow and serve the body of Christ. Proverbs 27:17 says "Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." We will become DULL spiritually if we don't rub shoulders with other believers.

Souled Out
Jul 3rd 2007, 06:05 PM
I may be a poor example or good example, depending on what you are looking for.
I was a faithful church member for many years, serving as a pastor/teacher, and elder. (not all at the same time)
I had a situation as you, finding myself in a strange city away from most of my brothers and sisters in the Lord I'd attended church with in the past.
I prayed but the Lord never really laid any particular place on my heart to serve and fellowship.
That's been 10 years ago and the situation hasn't changed, but I have. God has made it clear to me that I'm a priest and that I have the right to enter into His presence and the right to learn from Him.
My wife and I at times miss going to an organized church, but frankly, we have grown past what everyone we know of teaches.
The Lord is real to us. We experience His grace and mercy daily as we pray and study and seek His will.
You have to get over the habit of self condemnation for not going to church. And you have to realize that if you are to be fed or taught it's going to have to come from the Lord to you directly.
God says "whosoever" can come. That's individual.
As a child of the father, you have the right to enter into His presence through the flesh of Jesus Christ and there fellowship with Him.
Our fellowship with others is when we meet with fellow believers who believe as we do. We don't have scheduled meetings-Just when the Lord puts us together as a group.
I'm not anti-church. But I am Pro-individual responsibility when it comes to knowing and doing the will of the Lord.
If you believe God has placed His name on you then you have the right to fellowship together with two or three others in His name (usually that's the wife/husband and kids) and have Christ in the midst.
I hope I wasn't confussing. It's wonderful to walk in the liberty of life in Christ.


When Christ addressed the local assemblies in Revelation he told each on of them that "if any man hear my voice--etc." Even though He was addressing local churches the invitation was to individuals to overcome.

That's the way it's always been. Individually we're responsible to the Lord for our actions as believers. No one will stand before God and be allowed the excuse that they didn't overcome because their church didn't.

On the other hand, when God judges the great whore in Rev. all those who are part of it will be judged. That's why Paul was so clear in II Cor. 6:7 to come out from among them and be separate.

God's defination of a local church is in Matt. 18:20--"where two or three are gathered together in my name."

In Acts the believers went from house to house worshipping the Lord. Paul got letters to go to the houses to find and kill the believers.

Somewhere along the line men decided to "build an house for the name of the Lord" and we ended up with the situation we are in today. But God is very clear in stating that we are the house of God. (Hebrews 3:6--whose house ye are--"

We are Bethel. We're where the ladder exists to His presence.

Fellowship with other like minded believers is wonderful, but God help us if we relinquish our spiritual responsibilities to someone who knows little of the things of the Lord simply for the sake of belonging to a church.

Excellent posts, AliveinChristDave! :):amen:

Church (small c) membership (even though itís not biblical) is fine if it feeds you but if Christ is your Savior then you are part of the Ekklesia/Church (big C).

This is from the testimony of a man by the name of Ken Eckerty:
Not only had God begun showing me that Christ was not preeminent in my own life, but that He did not have the first-place in the churches. Christ had lost the preeminence in His own Assembly, and just like the early church of Ephesus, the modern church has lost its first love. (Rev. 2:4)

What (or whom) has replaced Him? Well, activities, for one; ministries for another; and even gifted men have ďreplacedĒ Christ. We are so busy ďforĒ Christ that we have forgotten that to ďbe withĒ Christ is the better thing.

Remember the story of Mary and Martha? Martha was so busy serving Christ that she forgot that Mary, who was sitting at the feet of Jesus, had the better thing. Jesus never condemned Martha for being a server. Service is importantóbut only when that service flows from our intimacy with Christ. Anything less is idolatry. We have made our ministries and our activities into little idols.

If you doubt what I am saying, simply read the newspaper advertisements for our churches or look at the church bulletin. Most churches try to draw people by boasting of all the activities and ministries that are made availableóministries for the children, ministries for the young adults, and ministries for the married. There are activities going on all the time.

Are we so bored with real intimacy with each other that we have to look for alternatives to fill our time? I often wonder, though, how many of these ministries Jesus has really blessed.

I once knew a pastor who had recognized this problem in ďhis ownĒ church and called on the congregation to put a halt to all ministries and activities and pray about what the Lord would have them to do next. Unfortunately, most of the church as well as the elders and deacons did not see this as necessary. You see, this particular church had made ministry an idol. They could not let go of their busy-ness.

This may be the testimony of one man but it really is the testimony of millions. I hear this all the time. Something already took place in the heavenlies and now it is taking place on the earth. There is an awakening taking place and it's nothing short of miraculous.

royo
Jul 4th 2007, 04:01 AM
Thank you Souled Out for posting the testimony by Ken Eckerty. It is so right on in it's analysis of much of the church world today. I pray so much that God would open the eyes and heart of those who are caught up in religiosity, instead of spirituallity.
As I said in my post, I feel blessed that He showed me early on the difference between the two. But I must also credit men of God like A.W. Tozer, and others, for their faithfulness to God and His Word.
And I praise Him for sites like this forum, where we can share these truths with one another. (see poem I posted called THE BIBLE FORUM).

God bless us all.....

C0841
Jul 5th 2007, 10:07 AM
If you really want to be concerned, check out the influence of the state and federal govt. on churches that are incorpored (501C3).

Who is the HEAD of the church? (Christ) But MOST churches in the U.S. are incorporated.

It is good to search these things out...for yourselves. Just type in "incorporation+church" and go from there. Lots to learn.

Mograce2U
Jul 5th 2007, 03:12 PM
Nowadays, are there a lot of believers who do not see the need to join a church?

After reading the tread on pride in church, I’m wondering because I’m turning into one of them but it wasn’t intentional. I moved here (a small town) a year ago and still haven’t decided on which church to go to.

Out of guilt (for not going to church), I’m actually spending more quiet time with God. He is teaching me to be a praying Christian, to travail for lost and hurting people. Also, I visit this board more often and it has been a blessing!

I won’t go as far as saying that we don’t need churches; just that church duties kept me busy but not closer to God (again, that’s just me). Churches are not perfect and most have hidden agendas (for men to be glorified). But I miss corporate worship and fellowship with good church friends. So I’m not sure if this is a phase I’m going through or is God teaching me something new?

Hope some of you can share, thanks! :)Here is the passage most often referred to that seems to say we are required to gather together into local assemblies.

(Heb 10:19-39 KJV) Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, {20} By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; {21} And having an high priest over the house of God; {22} Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. {23} Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

{24} And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: {25} Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

{26} For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, {27} But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. {28} He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: {29}Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? {30} For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. {31} It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

{32} But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; {33} Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.

{34} For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. {35} Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. {36} For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. {37} For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

{38} Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. {39} But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Now in the blue highlight, this seems to be a recognition that we will gather together in order to exhort and encourage one another in the faith as we wait for the Lord's return. And Paul refers to these saints as his companions in the tribulation they were all undergoing. His scope thus encompasses far more than a local fellowship of believers.

If you look however to the other parts I bolded, you might see that where we are commanded to gather is before the heavenly throne where our High Priest now resides. The willful sin is not failing to gather ourselves into local assemblies, but failure to come before the throne and that so as not to draw back into the world.

Our church gatherings have become worldly in their purpose and very little real exhortation or encouragement is given in them for this standing fast in the Lord. In fact, at least in America, they have the mark of Balaam and Nicolas already upon them in how they have covenanted with the political beast that controls them. Their 501-3c status thus effectively silences them to oppose this political machine and that so they can get your "tithes". This is how they are like Balaam who looked to make a gain over the people he was hired to curse. This harlot is therefore not whom the command concerns about our gathering together.

If anything, the passage shows that despite this harlot, we can come before the Lord and receive all that we need from Him and this is what we need to do!

brentw
Jul 5th 2007, 05:45 PM
Just to put a different view of most responses on this topic, I think church is very important. There are definite and most of the time obvious problems with church (church would be perfect if it weren't for man), there is positive qualities as well. I find it pretty easy to stay away from the faults of church (egos and politics) and try to draw close to the good things it has to offer like fellowship. I feel like I have more wisdom than most in my church like many of you have expressed but that means I can lead a more mentoring role in others. I don't feel it's right to forsake the church because it's not offering enough for me. When the Bible says don't forsake gathering together, I think it's a pretty literal term that says you should get together with other Christians. I think that royo found that without joining a church. My wife and I tried several churches of several denominations before we found one that fed us and we felt was based on the Bible. Even then it took some time before we felt comfortable.

There are several comments about how not going to church improved someone's walk or how church is unneccessary but how about all of those who quit going to church and fall away. Falling away from Christ is much more common for those who discontinue or never begin fellowship. Like Ken's excerpt, ministry can become an idol and get in the way of our relationship and I'm sure that church can be too political in reference to the post above mine, but only if we let it. This is only more the reason for strong, idealistic Christians to remain in church (within reason, there are limits to what churches are involved in that we should remain there) and direct where they go in the future.

Mograce2U
Jul 5th 2007, 06:51 PM
brentw,

This is only more the reason for strong, idealistic Christians to remain in church (within reason, there are limits to what churches are involved in that we should remain there) and direct where they go in the future.Yes that sounds right, until you realize that these are the ones they encourage to LEAVE, because their influence opposes their agenda. We don't have to have organized gatherings in order to fellowship and disciple one another. Nor do we need them to worship the Lord.

(John 4:21 KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

I would say that time arrived with Pentecost. With which the organized churches we see today are in disobedience with their heresies which have caused only divisions in the Body and not the unity of the Spirit in Christ.

When you find yourself the only one left like Elijah, you need to know that among the remnant is not where you are. We manage to find one another however, thank God.

brentw
Jul 5th 2007, 07:09 PM
Well I definitely don't believe that you have to go to church to worship, praise, pray, repent, etc., but I do believe church or fellowship has its purposes which is why it is in the Bible. There are many churches that are off base and there are many churches with poor leadership and members, but there are still good churches out there. If there isn't, then maybe there's a need to start one (not neccessarily a church, but a study group or something related).

Anyway, my point was that I believe there is a group of people out there who put too much importance on church and a group that completely disregards it. I don't stand in either camp, I just believe the Bible states it has a purpose and I think it does too.

rejected stone
Jul 5th 2007, 08:26 PM
brentw,
Yes that sounds right, until you realize that these are the ones they encourage to LEAVE, because their influence opposes their agenda. We don't have to have organized gatherings in order to fellowship and disciple one another. Nor do we need them to worship the Lord.

(John 4:21 KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

I would say that time arrived with Pentecost. With which the organized churches we see today are in disobedience with their heresies which have caused only divisions in the Body and not the unity of the Spirit in Christ.

When you find yourself the only one left like Elijah, you need to know that among the remnant is not where you are. We manage to find one another however, thank God.

Well put:

I can attest to the reality of what you say. Sometimes people are 'encouraged to leave' because their 'witness' is in opposition to the 'hidden (or not so hidden) agenda' of the pastorate. Sometimes they are 'encouraged to leave', simply because the pastorate is jealous of their knowledge or influence.

It is very interesting to note that in these very same churches people are NOT 'encouraged to leave' because of 'unrepentant sin' reining in their lives, nor are they approached about correcting the matter.

That sort of 'clues you in' to the 'real agenda' of these 'churches' doesn't it? It seems that they want to 'build' the 'church' in numbers at the expense of Biblical Doctrine being forsaken. How? By teaching and preaching a more 'popular gospel' for the masses. Then the 'pastorate' can 'revel' in the 'glory' of what 'they' have 'built', and be 'honored' by their fellow man.

I would be in a local church if either it 'fed' me something other than 'swill'; or allowed me to participate in 'feeding' something other than 'swill'.
During a Wednesday Night 'Bible Study' at one of the churches I visited after resigning as an assistant pastor; absolutely everyone in the room was individually asked if they had a Bible passage they wished to read and comment upon. That is; everyone except for me. I was quite pointedly 'passed over'. Some of those in attendance didn't even carry Bibles but were asked! That's the kind of church they wanted to have. And they've got it!

When what passes for the 'church' no longer wants you there; then 'praise God' that you have been singled out for persecution, and make good use of the time to grow closer to God!

When you are no longer 'fed' and/or 'allowed to feed' then you have no reason to remain. As to 'fellowship'? What fellowship has Christ with Belial?

Peace

C0841
Jul 5th 2007, 10:33 PM
brentw,
Yes that sounds right, until you realize that these are the ones they encourage to LEAVE, because their influence opposes their agenda.

Right on with that statement! Expose them...their agenda, a heretical teaching, whatever.... and you will be accused of everything from soup to nuts and ushered right out the door---- quickly and not with anything resembling "Christian Love", believe me.

I would say that time arrived with Pentecost. With which the organized churches we see today are in disobedience with their heresies which have caused only divisions in the Body and not the unity of the Spirit in Christ.

WE are the church. WE are the Body of Christ. His children know Him and He knows them. We recognize one another. He says that the day will come when many will say to Him Lord, Lord and He will say He never knew them. He says the way is narrow and few be there that will find it. We can expect to be FEW. We can expect loneliness, rejection, etc. Praise God.

When you find yourself the only one left like Elijah, you need to know that among the remnant is not where you are. We manage to find one another however, thank God.

And like Elijah, we can KNOW that there ARE others, even though it my at times seem there are none.

my :2cents:

jiggyfly
Jul 9th 2007, 11:23 PM
Just to put a different view of most responses on this topic, I think church is very important. There are definite and most of the time obvious problems with church (church would be perfect if it weren't for man), there is positive qualities as well. I find it pretty easy to stay away from the faults of church (egos and politics) and try to draw close to the good things it has to offer like fellowship. I feel like I have more wisdom than most in my church like many of you have expressed but that means I can lead a more mentoring role in others. I don't feel it's right to forsake the church because it's not offering enough for me. When the Bible says don't forsake gathering together, I think it's a pretty literal term that says you should get together with other Christians. I think that royo found that without joining a church. My wife and I tried several churches of several denominations before we found one that fed us and we felt was based on the Bible. Even then it took some time before we felt comfortable.

There are several comments about how not going to church improved someone's walk or how church is unneccessary but how about all of those who quit going to church and fall away. Falling away from Christ is much more common for those who discontinue or never begin fellowship. Like Ken's excerpt, ministry can become an idol and get in the way of our relationship and I'm sure that church can be too political in reference to the post above mine, but only if we let it. This is only more the reason for strong, idealistic Christians to remain in church (within reason, there are limits to what churches are involved in that we should remain there) and direct where they go in the future.

So which do you suppose happened first, falling away from Christ or discontinuing fellowship?

Sold Out
Jul 11th 2007, 12:29 PM
We should also consider Christ's example. He went to the synagogue regularly:

Luke 4:16, "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read."

Clearly, Jesus did not NEED to go to the synagogue - He was God in flesh! We should follow Christ's example of fellowshipping with God's people in God's house.

9Marksfan
Jul 11th 2007, 01:24 PM
{24} And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: {25} Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


{39} But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Now in the blue highlight, this seems to be a recognition that we will gather together in order to exhort and encourage one another in the faith as we wait for the Lord's return.

It is. Period.


And Paul

You sure it's Paul?!?! ;)


refers to these saints as his companions in the tribulation they were all undergoing. His scope thus encompasses far more than a local fellowship of believers.

Granted, but that doesn't support your next point.


If you look however to the other parts I bolded, you might see that where we are commanded to gather is before the heavenly throne where our High Priest now resides. The willful sin is not failing to gather ourselves into local assemblies, but failure to come before the throne and that so as not to draw back into the world.

Amen and amen to the second part of that, but we gather together for that great and glorious purpose - NOT as individuals! We need to do BOTH!!!!


Our church gatherings have become worldly in their purpose and very little real exhortation or encouragement is given in them for this standing fast in the Lord.

Agreed, in many cases, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't gather together at all - but rather seek to be affiliated with like-minded believers in local churches that do give real exhortation and encouragement! They DO exist!


In fact, at least in America, they have the mark of Balaam and Nicolas already upon them in how they have covenanted with the political beast that controls them. Their 501-3c status thus effectively silences them to oppose this political machine and that so they can get your "tithes". This is how they are like Balaam who looked to make a gain over the people he was hired to curse. This harlot is therefore not whom the command concerns about our gathering together.

I'm not aware of what happens in the US in that way, but I can well believe it - just like the registered churches in China, that are controlled by the State.


If anything, the passage shows that despite this harlot, we can come before the Lord and receive all that we need from Him and this is what we need to do!

Amen, but we should aim wherever possible to gather together - however informally - with like-minded believers - surely the NT doesn't advocate any kind of "Christian individualism" (apart from the body of Christ), except when it is enforced (eg Paul in prison, John exiled on Patmos)? Believers (even in the passage you have quoted!) are always spoken of in the plural, when it comes to church matters!

Mograce2U
Jul 11th 2007, 04:20 PM
9Marksfan, #22 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1318779&postcount=22)
My point is that the writer of Hebrews is affirming that believers will gather together and that gathering is to Christ above and not to "church". We do not need that organization in order to gather to Christ.

9Marksfan
Jul 11th 2007, 05:07 PM
9Marksfan, #22 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1318779&postcount=22)
My point is that the writer of Hebrews is affirming that believers will gather together and that gathering is to Christ above and not to "church". We do not need that organization in order to gather to Christ.

I think we're agreed, then, but what exactly are you advocating? While I have several friends who are fine Christians in the "established" churches and denominations, I don't think I personally could ever go back to that kind of set-up. But I believe it's vital for Christians to meet together in independent churches or fellowships, no matter how small or informal (whether affiliated to one another or not) - I believe the NT teaches interdependence of autonomous congregations but not isolationism and certainly not individualism!

Agreed?

Mograce2U
Jul 12th 2007, 03:36 AM
I think we're agreed, then, but what exactly are you advocating? While I have several friends who are fine Christians in the "established" churches and denominations, I don't think I personally could ever go back to that kind of set-up. But I believe it's vital for Christians to meet together in independent churches or fellowships, no matter how small or informal (whether affiliated to one another or not) - I believe the NT teaches interdependence of autonomous congregations but not isolationism and certainly not individualism!

Agreed?In the 1st century we see that the synagogues were a common way for the Jews to gather. And anyone could walk in and hear the word of God and partake of worship. This is not true today, except according to denominations. When Catholicism was the only "church", anybody could go there too. Which I am not advocating either. But today you cannot walk into just any fellowship and find a common "Christianity". No, everything is directed for you, even greeting one another is not done unless the pulpit announces you can do this. There is nothing to be shared, participation in the organization is "enforced". We are not participants, we are observers. What kind of fellowship is that? Its not as far as I can see. Don't get me started...

jiggyfly
Jul 12th 2007, 10:03 AM
In the 1st century we see that the synagogues were a common way for the Jews to gather. And anyone could walk in and hear the word of God and partake of worship. This is not true today, except according to denominations. When Catholicism was the only "church", anybody could go there too. Which I am not advocating either. But today you cannot walk into just any fellowship and find a common "Christianity". No, everything is directed for you, even greeting one another is not done unless the pulpit announces you can do this. There is nothing to be shared, participation in the organization is "enforced". We are not participants, we are observers. What kind of fellowship is that? Its not as far as I can see. Don't get me started...

Very good point Mograce2U, it is still an us and them (clergy/laity) organization.

9Marksfan
Jul 12th 2007, 12:35 PM
In the 1st century we see that the synagogues were a common way for the Jews to gather. And anyone could walk in and hear the word of God and partake of worship. This is not true today, except according to denominations. When Catholicism was the only "church", anybody could go there too. Which I am not advocating either. But today you cannot walk into just any fellowship and find a common "Christianity". No, everything is directed for you, even greeting one another is not done unless the pulpit announces you can do this. There is nothing to be shared, participation in the organization is "enforced". We are not participants, we are observers. What kind of fellowship is that? Its not as far as I can see. Don't get me started...

I have a great deal of sympathy with you, but can we really tar eg all house churches, independent churches, open Brethren assemblies etc with the same brush? You haven't said what you WOULD advocate believers to do - surely SOME kind of corporate worship and witness (however informal) is envisaged for ALL believers in the NT? What would you suggest as the way forward for Christians in the 21st century?

Mograce2U
Jul 12th 2007, 02:13 PM
I have a great deal of sympathy with you, but can we really tar eg all house churches, independent churches, open Brethren assemblies etc with the same brush? You haven't said what you WOULD advocate believers to do - surely SOME kind of corporate worship and witness (however informal) is envisaged for ALL believers in the NT? What would you suggest as the way forward for Christians in the 21st century?I don't know, but I wish I did. I even tried a home fellowship (bible study), but it ended up the same way; in that a handful of people seem to think they must control the others. Perhaps it is just the nature of the beast in us to want to be religious above all else.

Delia
Jul 17th 2007, 01:50 AM
I have been a Christian for 30 years, and God showed me from the beginning that my real growth in Him would come from spending time in the Word, and in prayer. (I have a plaque on my wall that says, PRAYER AND THE WORD).

Thanks Royo


I totally agree! Guess what, church friends think that I’m going astray even though I told them I’m growing in Him (without active church attendance). But looks like I do need some kind of face-to-face fellowship....

God bless you too!

Delia
Jul 17th 2007, 02:22 AM
And you have to realize that if you are to be fed or taught it's going to have to come from the Lord to you directly.
God says "whosoever" can come. That's individual.
As a child of the father, you have the right to enter into His presence through the flesh of Jesus Christ and there fellowship with Him.




If you believe God has placed His name on you then you have the right to fellowship together with two or three others in His name (usually that's the wife/husband and kids) and have Christ in the midst.
I hope I wasn't confussing. It's wonderful to walk in the liberty of life in Christ.


AliveinChristDave, thanks for sharing. Itís not confusing. Itís actually exciting to know that God is drawing me closer to Him!

The only drawback is that I donít know any believers here who are up for unconventional gathering. Theyíre all church-going Christians. I donít think I know how to walk in that liberty yet, because whenever people ask me why I donít go to church, all I can say is ďYeah, I should.Ē

May you and your family continue to grow in Him.

ravi4u2
Jul 17th 2007, 03:10 AM
AliveinChristDave, thanks for sharing. Itís not confusing. Itís actually exciting to know that God is drawing me closer to Him!

The only drawback is that I donít know any believers here who are up for unconventional gathering. Theyíre all church-going Christians. I donít think I know how to walk in that liberty yet, because whenever people ask me why I donít go to church, all I can say is ďYeah, I should.Ē

May you and your family continue to grow in Him.May I encourage you that you are already walking in liberty. Christ is the liberty. It does not matter if the other christians go to different churches. we do not need to be part of an organization to fellowship with God's people. Just continue to love your neighbors as you love yourself...

Delia
Jul 17th 2007, 03:13 AM
Sadly, yes, and for a variety of different reasons. But every Christian needs to be part of a local church. I need one[/font], I want one, but can't find one. :(

I agree, but it really can't substitute for face-to-face "one another" ministry, where each believer is equipped and given opportunity to function as part of the body. I think the popularity and proliferation of forums like this are evidence that people are seeking something they can't find in their church -- a voice, perhaps, an opportunity to serve in a way that the local churches don't allow... I don't know what it is. But if we all were able truly to serve in our local churches, would we really be spending much time on this board? Would there be this many Christians on a board like this?



The best we can do for a smile and a hug is :) and :hug:. What is wrong with this picture? Am I the only one who is troubled by this? Maybe it's just me... but the fact that there are so many here, tells me that maybe it isn't just me.

Tanya, I pray that in His time, you (and all those who truly want to seek His face) find fellowship with like-minded believers. Surely, the Lord knows your love for Him. By the way, have you checked out BSF (Bible Study Fellowship) in your area?

God bless you!

Tanya~
Jul 17th 2007, 03:33 AM
We don't have BSF very close to me, I looked for one recently. I do have CBS though, which is similar (Community Bible Study).

rejected stone
Jul 18th 2007, 02:29 PM
Greetings TanyaP:

I have taken the liberty of extracting what you said in answer to a posting by Delia and inserted it here. I hope you donít mind. My reason? It is such a perfect Ďstand aloneí, statement as to why many who would prefer to be in church are not. I felt it needed to be read as such. You echo my Ďsentimentsí exactly. By reposting it here in this fashion; I hope a few that passed over it before might now read it.

Peace

Quote from TanyaP:
I think the popularity and proliferation of forums like this are evidence that people are seeking something they can't find in their church -- a voice, perhaps, an opportunity to serve in a way that the local churches don't allow... I don't know what it is. But if we all were able truly to serve in our local churches, would we really be spending much time on this board? Would there be this many Christians on a board like this?

I think this board serves a great purpose. I just wish, with all my heart, that the church was fulfilling it. Because I would rather sit in a living room with you and discuss things than sit alone at my keyboard, not seeing your face, not hearing your voice, not knowing you personally, and you not knowing me, not even talking to one another at the same time.

I think the churches have lost focus on what our duties really are, and what the leadership is really supposed to be doing. We're supposed to minister to one another in practical ways, encourage and exhort one another, pray for one another. The leaders are supposed to equip us to do that. But we have to come to the internet for that, and interact with people on the opposite side of the country. The best we can do for a smile and a hug is file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Owner/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gifand file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Owner/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image002.gif. What is wrong with this picture? Am I the only one who is troubled by this? Maybe it's just me... but the fact that there are so many here, tells me that maybe it isn't just me.

I think it might have something to do with the prophesied 'falling away' and 'love growing cold' that precedes the coming of the Lord. I'm glad to hear that you use the time to draw near to God. I had to leave my last church because it was drawing me away from the Lord, though in a different way than your experience with too much busy-ness. My church just lacked spiritual life, plain and simple. It is full of money, full of activity, and full of people, but empty of life.

There have been times throughout history when the people of God have been attacked. Sometimes it was with overt persecution, sometimes it was by seduction by various things of the world. That's what I think the churches in my area have succumbed to, and it is no longer about the worship of God. We think we are "rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing" and therefore don't realize that we are "wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked."

I know what Jesus says to the church of Laodicea, but what is an individual to do when the church just continues in its lukewarmness? It's so hard to be isolated, and not part of the living local body.

I would give up if I didn't know that this was one of the signs of the last days. Like you, I stay near to God, and we keep our family in the word.
__________________

Mograce2U
Jul 18th 2007, 03:17 PM
rejectedstone,
Good post.

I think some are hearing the call to come out of Babylon and are rejecting its religious trappings. And what do we see Babylon does when it sees it is losing its members? It turns to the world and calls them to come to itself with a watered down gospel, lovely songs, false signs and an ecumenical unity based in error; whose lukewarm works neither refresh nor comfort anyone with fruit that lasts. This is exactly what the system they have embraced ought to look like - a counterfeit.

Heresy divides - for good reason:

(1 Cor 11:18-19 KJV) For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. {19} For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

(2 Pet 2:1-3 KJV) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. {2} And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. {3} And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

This ought to put the fear of God into those pastors who think gain is godliness. We ought to pray to this end! When Jesus asked if at His return whether would he find faith on the earth; it was in response to the story of the woman and the unjust judge (Luke 18:8). Judgment comes when the saints cry out - for vengeance. We want to see the situation "fixed", but are we willing to pray for the remedy that God has planned?

rejected stone
Jul 20th 2007, 07:06 PM
Greetings:

This is an excerpt from a posting (somewhat modified) that I made on another similar thread. If you have read it already; please bear with me.

As background, I should tell you that I spent about 3-years 'visiting' many churches after having resigned my position as an assistant pastor. I was 'reviled' by so-called brethren in the church as well as by many in my immediate and extended family. I was 'black-listed' by the local pastorate and treated quite shabbily even if I merely attempted to attend.
As a result (for a short time) I tried to 'attend' without 'picking' apart the messages I heard; hoping to find some church I might at least feel comfortable in. But I could not ignore their errors and motivations. If I went in trying to subdue my 'critical ear'; then I was singled out for attack. I believe the Holy Spirit was allowing me to see and come to terms with the fact that there is indeed a 'terrible falling away' already begun.

People tend to forget that the Bible is not just a history book. All the 'Warnings' it contains apply just as much to generations yet unborn at the time of the writing; as it did to those early readers. Too many modern preachers think that today they hold some kind of lock on the truth; and that if the vast majority of fellow ministers are teaching and preaching the same thing as them; then it just 'must be true'. Not So! A time of 'great error' is predicted; and they are serving to spread it!

2 Corinthians 11:13-14-&-15
11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

It seems as if the restraining hand of the 'Holy Spirit' had been lifted; and the 'doctrines of demons' are openly proclaimed.

I actually heard a preacher describing himself in a most revealing fashion. Had he been even a little bit familiar with the Bible he might have avoided this 'revealing' mistake. But after all; his first message in the church newsletter when he became 'pastor' quoted one of the current 'popular' Christian authors, not the Bible.
He described 'his' flock (note he said 'his flock' and not God's) as 'his hunting grounds'; and any who disagreed with 'his vision' might 'get shot' as tress passers!
Anyone else get the picture of a 'wolf in sheeps cothing' as I did? He does not 'feed' his flock. But he does indeed 'feed' upon them; just as a wolf feeds upon sheep!

Eze 34:7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
Eze 34:8 As live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock,
(but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock)

Eze 34:9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
Eze 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; (not for filthy lucre), but of a ready mind.

Isn't it amazing that almost everywhere you go people speak of this time as 'the latter times'? Yet they can't seem to make the connection that if indeed this is the 'latter times'; then Satan will be disguising' himself (and his lies) as a great 'liberating' message from the 'Angel of Light'!
Whatever else he might be; Satan is not stupid! He will use (and is using) the 'established ministry'; who are eager for the 'approval of men' to spread his lies.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2 Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The 'flock' remains blissfully ignorant OUT OF CHOICE; because they are told the 'things they want to hear'. They hear that they need not change nor be inconvenienced; but can 'claim' all the 'promises of God' even while living in open disobedience to His revealed will.

Christian fellowship is indeed a worthy thing; and I would 'prefer' to be 'fellowshipping' in a church. But what sort of fellowship is to be found among such as these?

peace http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1321677)

jiggyfly
Jul 20th 2007, 08:03 PM
Greetings:

This is an excerpt from a posting (somewhat modified) that I made on another similar thread. If you have read it already; please bear with me.

As background, I should tell you that I spent about 3-years 'visiting' many churches after having resigned my position as an assistant pastor. I was 'reviled' by so-called brethren in the church as well as by many in my immediate and extended family. I was 'black-listed' by the local pastorate and treated quite shabbily even if I merely attempted to attend.
As a result (for a short time) I tried to 'attend' without 'picking' apart the messages I heard; hoping to find some church I might at least feel comfortable in. But I could not ignore their errors and motivations. If I went in trying to subdue my 'critical ear'; then I was singled out for attack. I believe the Holy Spirit was allowing me to see and come to terms with the fact that there is indeed a 'terrible falling away' already begun.

People tend to forget that the Bible is not just a history book. All the 'Warnings' it contains apply just as much to generations yet unborn at the time of the writing; as it did to those early readers. Too many modern preachers think that today they hold some kind of lock on the truth; and that if the vast majority of fellow ministers are teaching and preaching the same thing as them; then it just 'must be true'. Not So! A time of 'great error' is predicted; and they are serving to spread it!

2 Corinthians 11:13-14-&-15
11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

It seems as if the restraining hand of the 'Holy Spirit' had been lifted; and the 'doctrines of demons' are openly proclaimed.

I actually heard a preacher describing himself in a most revealing fashion. Had he been even a little bit familiar with the Bible he might have avoided this 'revealing' mistake. But after all; his first message in the church newsletter when he became 'pastor' quoted one of the current 'popular' Christian authors, not the Bible.
He described 'his' flock (note he said 'his flock' and not God's) as 'his hunting grounds'; and any who disagreed with 'his vision' might 'get shot' as tress passers!
Anyone else get the picture of a 'wolf in sheeps cothing' as I did? He does not 'feed' his flock. But he does indeed 'feed' upon them; just as a wolf feeds upon sheep!

Eze 34:7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
Eze 34:8 As live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock,
(but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock)

Eze 34:9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
Eze 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; (not for filthy lucre), but of a ready mind.

Isn't it amazing that almost everywhere you go people speak of this time as 'the latter times'? Yet they can't seem to make the connection that if indeed this is the 'latter times'; then Satan will be disguising' himself (and his lies) as a great 'liberating' message from the 'Angel of Light'!
Whatever else he might be; Satan is not stupid! He will use (and is using) the 'established ministry'; who are eager for the 'approval of men' to spread his lies.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2 Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The 'flock' remains blissfully ignorant OUT OF CHOICE; because they are told the 'things they want to hear'. They hear that they need not change nor be inconvenienced; but can 'claim' all the 'promises of God' even while living in open disobedience to His revealed will.

Christian fellowship is indeed a worthy thing; and I would 'prefer' to be 'fellowshipping' in a church. But what sort of fellowship is to be found among such as these?

peace http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1321677)


Good post Rejected stone, it really is a matrix, isn't it. You just described the journey of many others, so many of us can identify with you.

Here's a site that you may find interesting. http://www.jakecolsen.com/contents.html

rejected stone
Jul 20th 2007, 09:51 PM
Greetings 'jiggyfly':

Went to the site you recommended. Very Interesting! I am reading it now. I left just long enough to post this reply to you and I am returning. Thanks!

peace

AliveinChristDave
Jul 21st 2007, 03:50 AM
Good post Rejected stone, it really is a matrix, isn't it. You just described the journey of many others, so many of us can identify with you.

Here's a site that you may find interesting. http://www.jakecolsen.com/contents.html


I went to the site you posted, Jiggyfly. It's captivating reading. So simple yet so true.
In Christ,
Dave

justsurfing
Jul 21st 2007, 04:21 AM
Greetings:

This is an excerpt from a posting (somewhat modified) that I made on another similar thread. If you have read it already; please bear with me.

As background, I should tell you that I spent about 3-years 'visiting' many churches after having resigned my position as an assistant pastor. I was 'reviled' by so-called brethren in the church as well as by many in my immediate and extended family. I was 'black-listed' by the local pastorate and treated quite shabbily even if I merely attempted to attend.
As a result (for a short time) I tried to 'attend' without 'picking' apart the messages I heard; hoping to find some church I might at least feel comfortable in. But I could not ignore their errors and motivations. If I went in trying to subdue my 'critical ear'; then I was singled out for attack. I believe the Holy Spirit was allowing me to see and come to terms with the fact that there is indeed a 'terrible falling away' already begun.

People tend to forget that the Bible is not just a history book. All the 'Warnings' it contains apply just as much to generations yet unborn at the time of the writing; as it did to those early readers. Too many modern preachers think that today they hold some kind of lock on the truth; and that if the vast majority of fellow ministers are teaching and preaching the same thing as them; then it just 'must be true'. Not So! A time of 'great error' is predicted; and they are serving to spread it!

2 Corinthians 11:13-14-&-15
11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

It seems as if the restraining hand of the 'Holy Spirit' had been lifted; and the 'doctrines of demons' are openly proclaimed.

I actually heard a preacher describing himself in a most revealing fashion. Had he been even a little bit familiar with the Bible he might have avoided this 'revealing' mistake. But after all; his first message in the church newsletter when he became 'pastor' quoted one of the current 'popular' Christian authors, not the Bible.
He described 'his' flock (note he said 'his flock' and not God's) as 'his hunting grounds'; and any who disagreed with 'his vision' might 'get shot' as tress passers!
Anyone else get the picture of a 'wolf in sheeps cothing' as I did? He does not 'feed' his flock. But he does indeed 'feed' upon them; just as a wolf feeds upon sheep!

Eze 34:7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
Eze 34:8 As live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock,
(but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock)

Eze 34:9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
Eze 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; (not for filthy lucre), but of a ready mind.

Isn't it amazing that almost everywhere you go people speak of this time as 'the latter times'? Yet they can't seem to make the connection that if indeed this is the 'latter times'; then Satan will be disguising' himself (and his lies) as a great 'liberating' message from the 'Angel of Light'!
Whatever else he might be; Satan is not stupid! He will use (and is using) the 'established ministry'; who are eager for the 'approval of men' to spread his lies.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2 Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The 'flock' remains blissfully ignorant OUT OF CHOICE; because they are told the 'things they want to hear'. They hear that they need not change nor be inconvenienced; but can 'claim' all the 'promises of God' even while living in open disobedience to His revealed will.

Christian fellowship is indeed a worthy thing; and I would 'prefer' to be 'fellowshipping' in a church. But what sort of fellowship is to be found among such as these?

peace http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1321677)

Hi RS,

Good name. I'm beginning to understand it's meaning... towards you.

:)

Here's what I'm thinking.

We are seeing things from our point of view.

God is seeing things from His point of view.

We think something is "wrong"... and the "church model" can be "filled with the Spirit"... and be "revived".

We're wrong, imo.

The church model is a marred pot that must be broken... and reformed.

We're not to look back... trying to mend the pot... wishing and hoping for the old wine.

God is pouring new wine into new bottles.

The form and the shape... the structure... of the "true church"... is being changed. This is a new day, a new hour, and God is doing a new thing.

This is the move of the Spirit - this departure from the "ic" (institutional church). We can't go back. It's structure has been outgrown. And the structure cannot receive our growth. We had to leave. We are the remnant... we are the forerunners... this is the move of the Spirit... to leave the old pattern. To embrace the new pattern.

The priesthood of all believers.

The equality of all believers.

No institution can hold this new wine.

The hierarchal structure is the old wineskin - tiered, top-down... and dying... and being filled more and more with a religious spirit of man... in my biblical and prophetic lense.

The new wine is being poured out into new wineskins... outside the old structure.

We cannot return. Nor are we called to return (imo).

We have come out from among them... as called of God. This is our calling. To be in fellowship with peers and equals as joint-heirs with Christ and without "tiers" or "hierarchy" or titles... for Jesus Christ shall be made manifest among us who are the called out ones... in a new way... for God is doing a new thing.

This is not entropy.

This is spiritual progression. A new move of the Spirit. The walls are coming down. The ground is being made level. Jesus Christ is rising. And the hierarchy is tumbling down... and shall be razed... to the ground.

God will share His glory with no man!!!

And the glory of the Lord shall rise!!!

The "unchurched" are the "re-vived"... in this last hour of these end times. For we are the church... and we've left the shell behind... and are coming out of the walls... and hte whitewashed wall is broken and crushed and destroyed... increasingly... as God's battle cry among the body is:

Diversity! Unity! Equality!

Something the "ic" will ever separate, divide, and deny.

Get it?

Love in Christ,

js

jiggyfly
Jul 21st 2007, 11:04 AM
Hi RS,

Good name. I'm beginning to understand it's meaning... towards you.

:)

Here's what I'm thinking.

We are seeing things from our point of view.

God is seeing things from His point of view.

We think something is "wrong"... and the "church model" can be "filled with the Spirit"... and be "revived".

We're wrong, imo.

The church model is a marred pot that must be broken... and reformed.

We're not to look back... trying to mend the pot... wishing and hoping for the old wine.

God is pouring new wine into new bottles.

The form and the shape... the structure... of the "true church"... is being changed. This is a new day, a new hour, and God is doing a new thing.

This is the move of the Spirit - this departure from the "ic" (institutional church). We can't go back. It's structure has been outgrown. And the structure cannot receive our growth. We had to leave. We are the remnant... we are the forerunners... this is the move of the Spirit... to leave the old pattern. To embrace the new pattern.

The priesthood of all believers.

The equality of all believers.

No institution can hold this new wine.

The hierarchal structure is the old wineskin - tiered, top-down... and dying... and being filled more and more with a religious spirit of man... in my biblical and prophetic lense.

The new wine is being poured out into new wineskins... outside the old structure.

We cannot return. Nor are we called to return (imo).

We have come out from among them... as called of God. This is our calling. To be in fellowship with peers and equals as joint-heirs with Christ and without "tiers" or "hierarchy" or titles... for Jesus Christ shall be made manifest among us who are the called out ones... in a new way... for God is doing a new thing.

This is not entropy.

This is spiritual progression. A new move of the Spirit. The walls are coming down. The ground is being made level. Jesus Christ is rising. And the hierarchy is tumbling down... and shall be razed... to the ground.

God will share His glory with no man!!!

And the glory of the Lord shall rise!!!

The "unchurched" are the "re-vived"... in this last hour of these end times. For we are the church... and we've left the shell behind... and are coming out of the walls... and hte whitewashed wall is broken and crushed and destroyed... increasingly... as God's battle cry among the body is:

Diversity! Unity! Equality!

Something the "ic" will ever separate, divide, and deny.

Get it?

Love in Christ,

js

Justsurfing, I agree with some of what you are saying. But I don't agree with you on this , I don't believe that the religious institution was founded by God but rather was originated and instituted by man. Jesus has been and is building His Church but it is spiritual with an expression in the natural not natural with an expression in the spiritual.

For many, the christian religious institution is where they met God and so it seems logical to continue to participate because thats where God is and God must approve of it because after all He shows up, right? But the truth is God reveals Himself to people that are seeking Him and people that cry out to Him. Using this same logic then, God must approve of taverns and crack houses. I know people who have met God in both of those places.

Remember Jesus said few enter the Gate that opens to the Path that leads to eternal Life. By the second half of the first century some were already turning away from the freedom of the Gospel towards religious bondage. Some calling themselves bishops and overseeing territories, becoming kings rather than servants. But Jesus has kept a remnant and continued to build His spiritual ekklesia all through the ages and in every generation.

I do agree that many are doing a new thing by responding and cooperating with what God has been doing all along. But this work of HolySpirit drawing people out of this christian religious institution has been going on since it began.

justsurfing
Jul 21st 2007, 02:31 PM
Justsurfing, I agree with some of what you are saying. But I don't agree with you on this , I don't believe that the religious institution was founded by God but rather was originated and instituted by man. Jesus has been and is building His Church but it is spiritual with an expression in the natural not natural with an expression in the spiritual.



Not to debate, but to ponder and consider what you are saying... would like to discuss. Going back to the OT, it is God who specifically designed and created the religious structure of the old testament model of the priesthood and rituals and observances of days.

So, in the history of the church spanning the OT and the NT - the old testament and the new testament... looking at God's clear instructions in the OT... it is God who created and instituted the religious institution - founded by God in it's structure - under the law.

But we are not under the law. Is not the hierarchal structure and the religious institution that has "reached past" the OT... the law? And the flesh seeking to "keep the law" to "be made right" with God?

What are your thoughts?



For many, the christian religious institution is where they met God and so it seems logical to continue to participate because thats where God is and God must approve of it because after all He shows up, right? But the truth is God reveals Himself to people that are seeking Him and people that cry out to Him. Using this same logic then, God must approve of taverns and crack houses. I know people who have met God in both of those places.

Remember Jesus said few enter the Gate that opens to the Path that leads to eternal Life. By the second half of the first century some were already turning away from the freedom of the Gospel towards religious bondage. Some calling themselves bishops and overseeing territories, becoming kings rather than servants. But Jesus has kept a remnant and continued to build His spiritual ekklesia all through the ages and in every generation.

I do agree that many are doing a new thing by responding and cooperating with what God has been doing all along. But this work of HolySpirit drawing people out of this christian religious institution has been going on since it began.
[/quote]

Interestingly enough - I was not "free" to go to church for the first 15 years of my adult life.

What a shock when I was "freed" from my captivity and was free to "fellowship" with "fellow believers" in the "ic"... having spent the last 15 years in personal prayer, Bible reading, and intensely intimate fellowship and communion with God in power in the Holy Spirit.

The difference between the "persecuted church" (me as a memmber of the spiritual ekklesia) and the members of the "organized church" was beyond stark in contrast.

My church that I go to now... is not really an "ic".

It's a gathering of fellowbelievers.

The pastor hates the religious spirit... and is in quite a quandary.

He calls us to gather... and is disgusted, imo,.... by the ongoing spirit in the midst that is still addicted to religion... and some who come to gather... gather for that reason... and are "doing religion" instead of "being Jesus"... and I can see our leader being "gagged out". LOL

He doesn't set himself up in a hierarchy as above us... and I certainly don't lift him up... he just is called the "pastor"... but he doesn't play it like the "ic". I wouldn't call him "pastor"... just old terms.

I really don't see it that way. (Him being lifted up above us in hierarchy... the term "pastor" doesn't really apply the way our body is designed.)

Hard to explain.

I wonder if someday we will become a union of house churches and fellowshipping separate of the "gathering".

Hard to say.

Love in Christ,

js

justsurfing
Jul 21st 2007, 02:42 PM
oh, and ps, jiggy... an outpouring of the Spirit has begun and is coming wherein the entire true body of believers - those born of God - will come out of the "ic".

That is what I am saying.... something more dramatic than has occurred through the history of the new testament spiritual ekklesia.

A move of the Spirit of a specific full stature anointing in full revelation of grace: the full stature move of the Spirit.

Love in Christ,

js

justsurfing
Jul 21st 2007, 03:05 PM
jiggy,

i would like to tell you a quick story. I am a "prayer closet" Christian... anyway... a pastor and an evangelist - i allowed into my prayer closet... allowed them to gather at my home and pray with me here in my prayer closet...

they were amazed...

the glory of God falls in my prayer closet more manifestly in clear revelation of grace than in any "Spirit-filled" church they had ever attended.... and they've "been in on" the "great outpourings" in hte "ic".

hee hee

LOL

Good one, God!

I'm still laughing.

:)

So, anyway, the got a bright idea!

:idea:

Bring Laura to the "ic" to pour out the Spirit of glory... within the "ic"!!!!

LOL

Finally, they dragged me into a church. hee hee... to "speak".... to pour out the Spirit.

I stood to the microphone... and felt of the Spirit... NOT to speak the Word ministry which releases shekinah glory...

hee hee

So I stood and prayed over the church. The faces of the people went white with a form of "new territory shock"... because as I spoke it was is if spiritual lightning and thunder was released.

Their jaws dropped... and they were paralyzed... because never had they experienced the Spirit as God came in the house... as I prayed... with authority.

The pastor hit the ground face down.

He stayed there the entire time I prayed (15-20 minutes... i dunno).

The people shook themselves, and began to "ride the tide" of the Spirit that came in the house... stood to their feet and began to shout!!!

And I looked above them all with my eyes fixed on Jesus Christ and continued to pray to release the manifestation of the power and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ in the presence and power of God.

People walkign by the church with no intention to attend... couldn't hear me with natural ears... but the Spirit drew them in!!!

As I left I was told that I had been taped on video... something I did not know and would not have allowed or agreed to... and I looked with some anger at the video machine... because I do not agree iwht the "marketing techniques" of the "ic".

And, miraculously, the tape I was told... was somehow... erased... Praise the Lord!

Anyway, the pastor and evangelist continued to press me to speak within the "ic".

But the Spirit said, "no"... and they were angry... and tried to wrestle with me to speak elsewhere... but I would not.

The Spirit has spoken expressly to my heart that the ministry I come to minister will not be ministered within the walls of the "ic.

More I could say... but choose not to.

:)

So much... so near... so soon...

and these discussions will become... academic... and historical.

;)

Love in Christ,

js

rejected stone
Jul 21st 2007, 03:09 PM
Greetings justsurfing and jiggyfly:

If I understand your posts correctly I believe you are both correct!

'jiggyfly' seems to feel that God never ordained the church institution as it is constituted; whereas 'justsurfing' seems to imply that it has served it's purpose and we are now being 'called out' of it'

These two positions are not necessarily in conflict with one-another. Just as Paul described the 'Law of Moses' as our teacher and Jesus as it's fulfillment; so too God may have allowed the 'institutional church' as a teacher until such a time as his 'ideal' was spiritually practical.

Irregardless; both of your posts are thought provoking and reflect great spiritual insight.Thanks....and of course....

peace

justsurfing
Jul 21st 2007, 11:48 PM
Greetings justsurfing and jiggyfly:

If I understand your posts correctly I believe you are both correct!

'jiggyfly' seems to feel that God never ordained the church institution as it is constituted; whereas 'justsurfing' seems to imply that it has served it's purpose and we are now being 'called out' of it'

These two positions are not necessarily in conflict with one-another. Just as Paul described the 'Law of Moses' as our teacher and Jesus as it's fulfillment; so too God may have allowed the 'institutional church' as a teacher until such a time as his 'ideal' was spiritually practical.

Irregardless; both of your posts are thought provoking and reflect great spiritual insight.Thanks....and of course....

peace

Good word, RS!

I mean, I'm not perfect.

So, there are many things, I'm sure, that I do now that as I become more mature I will "give up".

The Bible says, "When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me."

And the Bible says that even though the child is an heir - the child is put under the tutelage of teachers until he comes of age and receives the inheritance. (ie. Galatians).

And though I would say that there are Christians more mature than me that I draw from in their areas of maturity... I am more mature than them in some of my areas of maturity.

But when we all come to full maturity... we will not need to be in kiddy-garden.

And isn't church for children... and isn't the pastor the "daddy"? And isn't that why they in the "ic" think we are rebelling against "authority" when we say, "We're too mature for this. We have become spiritual adults enough in this area... that it's no longer appropriate for the institution to "parent" us... thus stifling our free expression as full grown adults."

So, I am not saying that I am "mature" in every which way... but there's no way I will be dumbed down or "matured down" to act like the "ic" is my parental authority structure in the form of an institution or in it's offices.

This is why the offices cease and we leave the church structure:

Eph. 4:11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

So you see that with maturity comes the ceasing of the offices in anointing over us, friends.

The anointing is upon us in authority.

We need not come under the anointing upon someone else's life. The anointing is upon us ourselves in our own maturity as adult believers.

And it is not possible to stay. Nor is it, for us any longer, a "spiritual necessity".

It is nothing rebellious for us to leave.

It's growing up and leaving home...

It's maturity.

You see the anointing? It is the addiction to power that causes those in leadership not to realize it's their job to raise people out of the church and into equality with them - by ministering the anointing... and recognizing that it is the anointing that should determine...

the structure...

not the hierarchy.

:)

And when the Spirit is poured out... and the anointing is upon all of us equally...

the church structure ceases to have a function of ministry...

it's true goal having been...

accomplished...

by God.

The outpouring will end the "church age".

And then what can happen but the return of our Lord? All things will have been fulfilled.

And Christ will return for a glorious bride without spot or wrinkle... truly filled with the Spirit... a mature bride... fully prepared.

:)

Love in Christ,

js

justsurfing
Jul 22nd 2007, 12:10 AM
Here is what I believe.

the "falling away"....

It is the natural man - the old nature - that acts out religion rather than sonship.

My biblical opinion.

So, as we grow in grace... we put off the old man.

Less and less we want religion.

More and more we want relationship with God as sons by the Lord Jesus Christ.

The "falling away"... is what is already happening, imo.

And it isn't the mature leaving church. It's the rise in religion in the church as the Spirit draws the spiritual ekklesia more and more out of the ic.

When we all, who are the true spiritual ekklesia,... leave... what will be left?

The false who have religion and not sonship... no personal relationship with God through Christ... no true salvation.

The whore... Babylon the great.

She tries to appear as the bride... and is not the bride.

One world religion alright.

I don't know what will happen. But I know the wolves in the church are becoming more "pronounced". I know that more and more it is the false who want position in the church - and are gaining it. And the organized church, imo, is increasingly false...

though Christians want to "redeem" the church model... when the Spirit leaves and departs... only machinations by the spirit of antichrist and dead religion by works and self-righteousness are left.

Kind of like what happened in the cities when the affluent moved to the burbs. The cities became desolate... and wickedness increased. (Yes, a generalization... but for comparison sake.)

(now cities are being revitalized, i realize... just a comparison... in practical terms)

Religion is the spirit of antichrist.

The Holy Spirit only exalts the Lord Jesus Christ.

Religion exalts pride of life, man, and is a work of the flesh, imo.

Biblical Christianity is a living body... spiritual life... a real relationship... and not a world religion, imo.

Religion is the counterfeit of what is true.

Jesus Christ is the Truth, the Way, and the Life.

And if religion forms in His name... that doesn't mean it was by the Spirit... or that Christian churches are Christian. The Christians in the churches are redeemed. That doesn't mean the model of the church is Christian... or is meant to be redeemed rather than replaced.

Many grasp and hold onto works, law, religion, and the righteousness they establish by these means... and are not truly born-again or saved.

This is the falling away... when that's all they have left... and Jesus, the spiritual ekklesia, have left the building, the organization: the structure... they cannot "outgrow" having not the Spirit.

:)

Love in Christ,

js

Mograce2U
Jul 22nd 2007, 12:16 AM
Good word, RS!

I mean, I'm not perfect.

So, there are many things, I'm sure, that I do now that as I become more mature I will "give up".

The Bible says, "When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me."

And the Bible says that even though the child is an heir - the child is put under the tutelage of teachers until he comes of age and receives the inheritance. (ie. Galatians).

And though I would say that there are Christians more mature than me that I draw from in their areas of maturity... I am more mature than them in some of my areas of maturity.

But when we all come to full maturity... we will not need to be in kiddy-garden.

And isn't church for children... and isn't the pastor the "daddy"? And isn't that why they in the "ic" think we are rebelling against "authority" when we say, "We're too mature for this. We have become spiritual adults enough in this area... that it's no longer appropriate for the institution to "parent" us... thus stifling our free expression as full grown adults."

So, I am not saying that I am "mature" in every which way... but there's no way I will be dumbed down or "matured down" to act like the "ic" is my parental authority structure in the form of an institution or in it's offices.

This is why the offices cease and we leave the church structure:

Eph. 4:11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

So you see that with maturity comes the ceasing of the offices in anointing over us, friends.

The anointing is upon us in authority.

We need not come under the anointing upon someone else's life. The anointing is upon us ourselves in our own maturity as adult believers.

And it is not possible to stay. Nor is it, for us any longer, a "spiritual necessity".

It is nothing rebellious for us to leave.

It's growing up and leaving home...

It's maturity.

You see the anointing? It is the addiction to power that causes those in leadership not to realize it's their job to raise people out of the church and into equality with them - by ministering the anointing... and recognizing that it is the anointing that should determine...

the structure...

not the hierarchy.

:)

And when the Spirit is poured out... and the anointing is upon all of us equally...

the church structure ceases to have a function of ministry...

it's true goal having been...

accomplished...

by God.

The outpouring will end the "church age".

And then what can happen but the return of our Lord? All things will have been fulfilled.

And Christ will return for a glorious bride without spot or wrinkle... truly filled with the Spirit... a mature bride... fully prepared.

:)

Love in Christ,

jsThat is an interesting point of view. And I couldn't help but think of poor Korah as he argued with Moses, LOL. But I think you have a point that Korah didn't have since he wanted to be of equal authority when God had appointed Moses to be their leader.

In the churches, we are not to rule over one another, but we are given pastors to teach us so we can become sound in the faith. When that spiritual maturity comes then we ought to be teachers ourselves and able to minister to one another concerning the things of Christ. In this respect we work as family members - which is something the ic does not do.

No, the ic only wants us to serve THEM. And once we realize this is the case, what can we do BUT leave? To do otherwise would be to put ourselves in Korah's position standing futilely against Moses. Only in that case it is not God's wrath we face but the wrath of man who does not want to let go of the power he has. Which is no doubt why they incorporate themselves so no one can take it away from them!

Good post, you got me thinking!

justsurfing
Jul 22nd 2007, 02:01 AM
That is an interesting point of view. And I couldn't help but think of poor Korah as he argued with Moses, LOL. But I think you have a point that Korah didn't have since he wanted to be of equal authority when God had appointed Moses to be their leader.

In the churches, we are not to rule over one another, but we are given pastors to teach us so we can become sound in the faith. When that spiritual maturity comes then we ought to be teachers ourselves and able to minister to one another concerning the things of Christ. In this respect we work as family members - which is something the ic does not do.

No, the ic only wants us to serve THEM. And once we realize this is the case, what can we do BUT leave? To do otherwise would be to put ourselves in Korah's position standing futilely against Moses. Only in that case it is not God's wrath we face but the wrath of man who does not want to let go of the power he has. Which is no doubt why they incorporate themselves so no one can take it away from them!

Good post, you got me thinking!

Hey mo!

I kind of "leaped" in my spirit to see you'd posted... and was hoping that you "re-plied"... to me!

:)

Cause, here it is: I've gotten to know you mo... (more I mean), mo...

:)

And, truth is, I highly respect you in the Lord as a very spiritual graceful fellow believer...

And what you say has power.

:)

I value what you have to say... cause

you got the Spirit!!!

Les' hear it!!!

:)

Why do I sound like a cheerleader? Well, I think that's my job, in a way... my calling. A cheerleader for Jesus and His fam.

:)

Hmmm.... LOVED what you had to say. Saw it in the Spirit in which you wrote it. And kind of want to "take off" on it, if that's okay.

(I mean, taking the same truths... and thinking... and coming up with this...)

Moses was "who Moses was" not because God is a respector of persons... but, actually, imo... at some level... due to the anointing upon Moses.

I mean, without the anointing... he was just another man. You know, remember, how the anointing came upon Saul (the first king of Israel) and Saul became another man? (That's how the Bible described it.)

Well, the anointing made Moses the leader. And, yes, God chose Moses for that specific task.

I'm going to compare leaders of the ic who are functioning outside of the anointing... trying to bring God's heritage under slavery to them... (and not really God)... to....

PHAROAH!

:)

So, Moses would come and say, by the anointing, "Let my people go".

:)

So, we aren't Korah, in that allegory... we are the slaves of Egypt going to the promised land with God as our Guide.

And Moses would be the Holy Spirit's anointing insisting that the religious slavery to man end... for we are the people of God and an entire race and royal family of chosen royal priests.

The "pastors" were not called to "lord it over us" as pharoah bringing us into bondage and slavery. They were called to humble themselves... and treat us as EQUALS!!!... all along.

I could go on and on.

LOL

Go Jesus!

Matthew 23:6 And they love to sit at the head table at banquets and in the seats of honor in the synagogues. 7 They love to receive respectful greetings as they walk in the marketplaces, and to be called ĎRabbi.í

8 ďDonít let anyone call you ĎRabbi,í for you have only one teacher, and all of you are equal as brothers and sisters.


See Jesus' true heart and intent for His body?

We are all to be regarded and treated and behave and see ourselves - ALL OF US - as EQUAL!!! as brothers and sisters.

(sidebar.... see how Paul "blew it". Jesus regarded the brothers as equal to the sisters and the sisters as equal to the brothers. Neither one "above" the other. All as equal.)

And, in the larger view... no one was to have a title that exalted one or diminished another.

Diversity. Unity. Equality.

This is the church of Jesus Christ as Jesus mandated it... and disallowing religious titles granting greater position above others to any... or any reason for any to garner any ego gratification from His body at the expense of the others.


9 And donít address anyone here on earth as ĎFather,í for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father. 10 And donít let anyone call you ĎTeacher,í for you have only one teacher, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you must be a servant. 12 But those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Equal. And if anyone was to serve... they were to serve... and not become "great" over anyone else. Because all of us are equal as brothers and sisters... and the only way to become "great" is to serve other humbly... not to "resurrect" the hierarchal "pecking order" "top down" "ego gratifying" structure the Pharisees "fed their egos through".

13 ďWhat sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in peopleís faces. You wonít go in yourselves, and you donít let others enter either.

Jesus Christ, quite basically, came right back at the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees... the hiearchal position holders in the "ic" of the synagogue... that they wouldn't go into the Kingdom of Heaven (where everyone - brothers and sisters all - are equal in Christ)... and shut the door in people's faces... not letting others enter!!!

15 ďWhat sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&version=51#fen-NLT-23906f)] you yourselves are!
The "ic" wants to convert Christians to it's "systems" sometimes, more than it wants to convert them to the Jesus Christ of scripture who has rejected their system of hierarchy and pride in position and power in the "ic" (the synogogue).

God calls them "Hypocrites!"

Well, Jesus was pretty opinionated, wasn't He?

:)

He is..... God.

:)

If I agree with God... well, I have this saying.

If God and I disagree... I'm wrong.

I make it my goal to agree.

:)

I rather like His "take" on equality vs. hypocrisy.

BTW... I gotta love Paul. But Paul must have missed this sermon of Jesus on the equality of brothers and sisters, and the end of tiered systems that rank one above the other... male/female... offices/everything.... don't ya think???

hee hee

Whadya think, mo?

Love in Christ,

js

Mograce2U
Jul 22nd 2007, 03:05 AM
JS,
I agree and heard a sermon today on 1 Cor 3 which I think applies. It was pointed out that Paul laid the foundation upon which the church is built. The pastors are then the ones who build upon that foundation. But we are the building materials they use whether that is gold, silver, precious stones or wood, hay or stubble. What the pastor builds - in us the church - determines what they will receive as their reward.

I am not entirely sure I agree with this perspective, but it makes you think. Some pastors are not building with quality materials in the converts they "create". These converts will not stand the test of fire that is coming, tho the pastor himself may be saved - he will have no fruit that lasts to show for his misguided efforts.

Paul on the other hand referred to his converts as his crown. (Phil 4:1)

(1 Th 2:19-20 KJV) For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? {20} For ye are our glory and joy.

This preacher I heard may be right in whether what these pastors build will be a crown of rejoicing or sorrow. Many will say in that day Lord, Lord...

rejected stone
Jul 22nd 2007, 04:23 AM
'justsurfing and Mograce2U'

You will seldom see me use so few words:

"Whoo-eee!That's some good stuff!"

peace

justsurfing
Jul 22nd 2007, 04:12 PM
JS,
I agree and heard a sermon today on 1 Cor 3 which I think applies. It was pointed out that Paul laid the foundation upon which the church is built. The pastors are then the ones who build upon that foundation. But we are the building materials they use whether that is gold, silver, precious stones or wood, hay or stubble. What the pastor builds - in us the church - determines what they will receive as their reward.

I am not entirely sure I agree with this perspective, but it makes you think. Some pastors are not building with quality materials in the converts they "create". These converts will not stand the test of fire that is coming, tho the pastor himself may be saved - he will have no fruit that lasts to show for his misguided efforts.

Paul on the other hand referred to his converts as his crown. (Phil 4:1)

(1 Th 2:19-20 KJV) For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? {20} For ye are our glory and joy.

This preacher I heard may be right in whether what these pastors build will be a crown of rejoicing or sorrow. Many will say in that day Lord, Lord...

Hi mo,

I have to wait a moment to respond... cause the Spirit of the Lord... is just so I would say "concentrated"...

You know, like our faith is as gold that is purified... when the Spirit of the Lord feels so "concentrated"... it feels like faith refined.

1 Cor 3:10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,

There is no other foundation upon which we can build other than the one foundation already laid: which is Jesus Christ.

Religion always seeks to add or take away from Jesus Christ.

And what does man add to take away from Jesus Christ?: man.

Faith purified rejects everything but Jesus Christ and fully focuses on Jesus Christ.

When faith sees Jesus Christ 100%... faith is purified... faith is enlivened... and becomes the "power gift of faith".

The "power gift of faith" functions at the level of 100% in a power gift of the Spirit.

It is this power gift of faith (functioning at the level of 100%)... focussed fully on Jesus 100%... whereby the full shekinah glory is poured out.


Ephesians 2:19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

I will speak of the deep things of the Spirit... in a let him/her that hath ears saying.

The gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is a 100% gospel.

The foundation of the Lord Jesus Christ is a 100% foundation.

This is the Word.

We have faith. The faith we have on the inside is a 100% faith given by God to us.

Everything God does by His Spirit - God does at the level of 100%.

Yet, we have flesh. This is why we "grow in grace" and "grow in faith". We do not gain "more faith" in our spirits.

Rather, more faith from the Spirit in our spirits is "worked out" into our active use and enlived understanding in our souls in sanctification.

Therefore, what we need within us to "activate" the full stature move of the Spirit... is already within us... that is in our spirits.

To activate the full stature move of the Spirit, the outpouring of full shekinah glory, we must "build" solely on the only one true foundation: Jesus Christ.

When the Holy Spirit gives us power to see Jesus Christ as He is, at 100% - for this is the level, our faith within our spirits is enlivened, and activated, at the level of 100%.

The 100% gospel, then of Jesus Christ, with NO MAN mixed - is then mixed in purity of faith.... the "power gift of faith".. and the Spirit is poured out in 100% full shekinah glory!!!

Hebrews 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

This is the mix.

Mixing faith with truth.

Mixing faith with the gospel.

By the Spirit.

Well, the pastors are mixing man...

The full stature move of the Spirit... that is what is coming to the body of Christ.

When the full stature move of the Spirit is poured out... then this anointing will come upon the members of the body... and by the anointing upon us (from building on the only foundation: Jesus Christ.. at the level of 100% by SOUND DOCTRINE 100% GOD... enlivening the "power gift of faith" at the level of 100%... the full shekinah glory is poured out)... we will become fully mature and united in truth and power in Christ... ALL OF US.

The offices shall cease.

Ephesians 4:1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Each of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. As the gift of the full stature move is given to all members of the body in full measure of the gift of Christ... the body comes to unity in agreement, unity, and maturity as equals...

in anointing.


8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

When this anointing and outpouring of the Spirit comes upon is in full revelation of God's grace in the Lord Jesus Christ... in the power gift of faith... producing the full shekinah glory outpouring within all believers that shall come upon all believers...

we all come in the unity of the faith... unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

The offices cease because of the anointing that comes upon all believers rendering the offices of no further necessity... the Spirit having done the work... the body being fully prepared unto equal ministry one to another... as equals not only in spirit but in truth and in love in anointing of the Holy Spirit.

(God only makes some pastors, teachers, evanglists... by the ANOINTING... )

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

No more children.

We see at the core that sound doctrine is the key.

For our faith must mix with the full gospel of Jesus Christ...

and all things must be at the level of 100%...

for the anointing to be produced and to fall upon the body equally.

This is why I speak of the doctrine of the full stature move of the Spirit.

Thanks, mo....

The ekkelsia is about to receive the final outpouring.

This is what I believe.

Love in Christ,

js

Mograce2U
Jul 22nd 2007, 04:52 PM
JS,
Some of your posts are hard to follow, but this one was not! Thanks. I think that is exactly what we can expect to see in the last days before Christ returns as the saints come to a full knowledge of Him by the Spirit. More and more you see Christians beginning to question what they have been told and are now searching the scriptures for themselves. I keep hearing this testimony and it is thrilling!

AliveinChristDave
Jul 23rd 2007, 05:20 AM
Good post Rejected stone, it really is a matrix, isn't it. You just described the journey of many others, so many of us can identify with you.

Here's a site that you may find interesting. http://www.jakecolsen.com/contents.html
Jiffy, Thanks for the link to the book. I read it last night and know I should read it again to be able to digest all that was taught in it. It pretty much parallels the road God is taking me down.
It sort of hit home because the first "big" encounter I had with the Lord that put me on the road to where I am now took place one night while my son was in the hospital with a severe asthma attack. My attitude toward God has never been the same since that night of his sickness.
I'd gone home to pray for him while my wife stayed at the hospital. Our Doctor, who was also a dear Christian brother, told me as I left the hospital to go pray, because my son's condition wasn't very favorable to recovery.
I went home and prayed, but it was one of those times when God seemed to be on the other side of the world. I had no peace that God was even hearing my prayers let along going to answer them.
Assuming there was sin in my life, I begged God for forgiveness and promised Him my devotion in all my life if my son would be raised. Still no answer--no peace--no still small voice.
I tried to sleep but after tossing and turning for a couple hours got off the bed and knelt beside it again. As I began to pray, a still small voice spoke to me and said "Dave, what will you think of me if I raise your son up?"
My answer was instant. "Lord, I will worship and serve you forever because you are the most High God, you're Holy, Righteous"---I went through ever name and every attribute of God I could think of. God spoke again and said, "that's good Dave, but let me ask you now, what are you going to think of me if I don't raise him up. What if I take him home?
At that point, God broke my heart and He heard what He wanted to hear.
"God, if you don't raise him up. If you choose to take him on home with you I will be heartbroken, but you're still the Lord God, you're still who you are and will never change and I will still love you and honor you and stand in awe to you for my life"
That night, God changed my thinking. He changed my life. He put me on a new road of peace and joy and contentment and because of that night I'm where I am today with the Lord. Oh, by the way, God saw fit to let my son live. His son (My grandson Noah) is the one we have been praying for in the urgent prayer forum.
Things haven't been perfect by any means. I have my ups and downs. I've been trough a divorce, I lost the credentials of my group to be able to pastor (probably the best thing that ever happened to me) I even lost the pastorate of a vibrant growing group of believers but praise His name, I lost most of my so called Christian friends. I still have the peace of God and His wonderful love and power in me and He's still teaching me.
God even put me in the desert for four year until one day I had my burning bush experience and knew anew His wonderful power to forgive and his endless Grace.
I don't know why God uses me or even puts up with me. I'm a sinner, but a sinner who knows what Grace can do.
I've seen the Lord working through those who don't fit into the tight little packages organized religion have. Just like when King David wanted an army, he took those who owed money, who were running from the law, who were outcasts of society and so on, yet he was powerful with those.
God is doing that today. Praise God He uses the weak and begarly elements of the world.
I'm so humbled that I can even write on a forum like this with like minded believers. Humbled that I had to go through sin to be exalted. That God had to pretty well strip me of everything before He was ready to use me again. Yet when I open my Bible and God speaks to me from those precious Words of His and shows me things I don't know if anyone else has ever seen (I know they have) and he allows me to open my mouth and speak His truths. I know I'm not much but I've found it don't take much to do God's Word. One word fitly spoken can do wonders .
I'm rambling, I just want to thank all of you people whom I didn't know of a month ago, for being such a blessing to me.
Love IN Christ,
Dave

jiggyfly
Jul 23rd 2007, 11:48 AM
Posted by Justsurfing; And if religion forms in His name... that doesn't mean it was by the Spirit... or that Christian churches are Christian. The Christians in the churches are redeemed. That doesn't mean the model of the church is Christian... or is meant to be redeemed rather than replaced.



Such a simple truth and yet very difficult for many to understand. Absolutely agree with you Justsurfing. Church history supports your statement also. We can see this happening time and again all through the church ages. HolySpirit does something and man eventually preverts it, sometimes with the aid of satan and sometimes all on his own. This is as old as Cain and Able. But even when man preverts what God is doing, Jesus doesn't stop building His church. You see, the religious institution ( man's pride and joy) and the ekklesia that Jesus is building are on different planes. One is of this world the other is not of this world, one is carnal the other is spiritual. One is on a sure foundation and each of it's stones properly fitted together and the other is always in need of repair and external props (the other world systems) to support it and keep it from collapsing.

Some feel they have invested too much into the christian religious institution to let go and that is sad. There's an old saying," there are none so blind than those who refuse to see". May Father shake us and wake us and wipe the sleep from our eyes. The dream is really a nightmare.

jiggyfly
Jul 23rd 2007, 12:00 PM
Your most welcome AliveinChristDave, your post is a real encouragement to me and others as well. Wayne's teachings have been a real help to me also, He is a good brother. If you would like so more websites with great teachings just PM me and I will give them to you. God bless

jiggyfly
Jul 23rd 2007, 12:12 PM
Greetings 'jiggyfly':

Went to the site you recommended. Very Interesting! I am reading it now. I left just long enough to post this reply to you and I am returning. Thanks!

peace
Most welcome Rejected stone, hope Father speaks to you through it. Your stuggle sounded very simular to Jake's. God bless

rejected stone
Jul 23rd 2007, 06:50 PM
Most welcome Rejected stone, hope Father speaks to you through it. Your stuggle sounded very simular to Jake's. God bless

Greetings jiggyfly and AliveinChristDave:

You are correct 'jiggy'; there are many similarities in our stories; and Dave's has some startling parallels that I can relate to as well.

I knew from the first minute I received the 'Call' from God that it was 'different' from what I was seeing in churches; but persuaded myself that perhaps I was simply mistaken since I 'HADN'T' been brought up in church. So I tried to 'fit into' my perceptions of the church's expectations. 'Square-Peg Round-Hole'; I never felt comfortable. Early on I could see some really huge problems with the church.

I was 'told' I must confront it. I rationalized that they (the church) would never listen and would use 'my past' as an excuse to 'disqualify' my message. Of course I was right; but I had missed the point. God wanted me to do what 'He said' anyway and leave the outcome and details to him.

I rebelled; and 'pulled a Jonah' for a number of years. I ran as hard and fast as I could away from the responsibility of bearing the messages I had been given to deliver. But there was no hiding; and His voice addressed me even in the depths of my sin.

Finally 'worn out' from running and finding no peace; I relented. I found a surprisingly open reception 'at first'. But when it came to getting people to 'break out' of the constraints of man's imposed substitution for a true and trusting relationship with God and His Word, I hit a 'brick wall. People were only willing to 'go so far'; and 'letting themselves go' and trusting God through Jesus rather than man's counterfeit seemed to be a concept that they could/would not even allow themselves to understand, much less act upon.

I took a huge 'step of faith' and delivered what was actually a pretty mild message that God had 'handed me'. But I knew 'in my spirit' that as 'mild' as it seemed; it was in the spiritual realm a well-honed sword.

Near pandemonium broke out; all out of proportion to the 'actual words' themselves. But these were 'spirit-empowered' words; and they 'cut to the heart'.

For preaching a message that was described to me by the 'pastor' as 'Biblically Correct, but Wrong', I was ostracized from fellowship, blacklisted at area churches' and even had attempts made to 'set-me-up' (by so-called Christians).

But you know what? (I'm quite sure you do) I have grown so much closer to God and he has revealed so much more to me since that time. I now look back on it with joy; realizing that I couldn't have learned to 'trust' as I now do; and would have missed the 'blessings' of His leadership and revelations; had I not taken that 'leap of faith' that I thought so 'daring' at the time.

In reality; that which I thought 'bold and daring' was but 'child's play' compared to the things that have followed. Those poor people I left behind will never allow themselves to understand and experience these things and the intimacy with God it has brought me. I pity them their poor, tired, orchestrated walk. They keep working themselves to exhaustion trying to get God to send a 'mighty move' of the spirit. But it never happens.

On Mount Carmel;the 'prophets of Baal' sought to get an answer from their god by working themselves into a frenzy. They got excited. But their energies were wasted; worshiping the wrong God in a manner designed to 'edify man'. The 'true prophet of God; stood calmly aside watching them; confident in his relationship with the 'true and living God. This same God spoke to him in a 'still small voice' and fed him, cared for him, and encouraged him when he was dis-heartened.
Who would want to miss out on that?! Not me! And I'm so grateful that I didn't!

peace

ravi4u2
Jul 25th 2007, 03:44 AM
Greetings jiggyfly and AliveinChristDave:

You are correct 'jiggy'; there are many similarities in our stories; and Dave's has some startling parallels that I can relate to as well.

I knew from the first minute I received the 'Call' from God that it was 'different' from what I was seeing in churches; but persuaded myself that perhaps I was simply mistaken since I 'HADN'T' been brought up in church. So I tried to 'fit into' my perceptions of the church's expectations. 'Square-Peg Round-Hole'; I never felt comfortable. Early on I could see some really huge problems with the church.

I was 'told' I must confront it. I rationalized that they (the church) would never listen and would use 'my past' as an excuse to 'disqualify' my message. Of course I was right; but I had missed the point. God wanted me to do what 'He said' anyway and leave the outcome and details to him.

I rebelled; and 'pulled a Jonah' for a number of years. I ran as hard and fast as I could away from the responsibility of bearing the messages I had been given to deliver. But there was no hiding; and His voice addressed me even in the depths of my sin.

Finally 'worn out' from running and finding no peace; I relented. I found a surprisingly open reception 'at first'. But when it came to getting people to 'break out' of the constraints of man's imposed substitution for a true and trusting relationship with God and His Word, I hit a 'brick wall. People were only willing to 'go so far'; and 'letting themselves go' and trusting God through Jesus rather than man's counterfeit seemed to be a concept that they could/would not even allow themselves to understand, much less act upon.

I took a huge 'step of faith' and delivered what was actually a pretty mild message that God had 'handed me'. But I knew 'in my spirit' that as 'mild' as it seemed; it was in the spiritual realm a well-honed sword.

Near pandemonium broke out; all out of proportion to the 'actual words' themselves. But these were 'spirit-empowered' words; and they 'cut to the heart'.

For preaching a message that was described to me by the 'pastor' as 'Biblically Correct, but Wrong', I was ostracized from fellowship, blacklisted at area churches' and even had attempts made to 'set-me-up' (by so-called Christians).

But you know what? (I'm quite sure you do) I have grown so much closer to God and he has revealed so much more to me since that time. I now look back on it with joy; realizing that I couldn't have learned to 'trust' as I now do; and would have missed the 'blessings' of His leadership and revelations; had I not taken that 'leap of faith' that I thought so 'daring' at the time.

In reality; that which I thought 'bold and daring' was but 'child's play' compared to the things that have followed. Those poor people I left behind will never allow themselves to understand and experience these things and the intimacy with God it has brought me. I pity them their poor, tired, orchestrated walk. They keep working themselves to exhaustion trying to get God to send a 'mighty move' of the spirit. But it never happens.

On Mount Carmel;the 'prophets of Baal' sought to get an answer from their god by working themselves into a frenzy. They got excited. But their energies were wasted; worshiping the wrong God in a manner designed to 'edify man'. The 'true prophet of God; stood calmly aside watching them; confident in his relationship with the 'true and living God. This same God spoke to him in a 'still small voice' and fed him, cared for him, and encouraged him when he was dis-heartened.
Who would want to miss out on that?! Not me! And I'm so grateful that I didn't!

peaceThe notorierity of the religious elite...

RogerW
Jul 26th 2007, 05:21 PM
This is a subject very near and dear to my heart. Iíve been arguing against a particular teaching that has been referred to as ďthe depart out opinionĒ for some time now. I will try to make myself very clear so that you will be able to see what I have against this doctrine.

Depart out tells us that God is finished with the church, and some who hold this opinion even tell us that no one can be saved who remains in her. They say that you cannot be a child of God and remain in churches because this would prove you are not a child of God, but rather under strong delusion. Or, they say perhaps we (those who choose to stay in the church) are among those who only think themselves saved, but in fact are working in our own strength without any help and guidance from the Holy Spirit of God. They say unashamedly that if you are refusing to depart out of the church then not only are you not saved, but you will in fact be condemned with the great harlot on Judgment Day.

I know with blessed assurance that I am a child of God. Itís not that I think I am, or that I hope I am, no, I know! And God has given me many passages of Scripture to prove to me that I can sit here typing today, and have complete confidence that He Who has begun a good work in me will complete it to the end. I know because I believe. This belief is not an emotional belief based on feelings, it is based on faith. His faith.

God brings great comfort to those who believe the promises. Confidence is ours, His comfort is ours if we are in Christ by faith alone. We can know we are saved if we believe, and we desire to serve Him out of love and gratitude. Is God not powerful enough to do what He has promised? Those who have this eternal security in His promises are destined to glory, and we will be glorified. Nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. God provides the righteousness that I lack. We can do nothing to attain our own righteousness, it is by grace alone, through faith alone. I, like the Apostle Paul, speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit.

I love Godís covenant people (the church). I love them in the same way that Paul expresses his love for the Jews in the book of Romans. I long to fellowship with them because Scripture has convinced me through the multitude of passages that we need to be among the covenant people of God. I celebrate with them when we are filled with joy. I cry with them when we are mourning. I edify them, and they in return edify me. We worship God together in holiness and truth. We proclaim the doctrines of the Reformation, reformed and always reforming. We are led by imperfect, fallen, sinful men, who love the Lord, and honor Him with their service to His beloved covenant people. We recognize that there are those within our congregation who would seek to destroy this covenant body. They are liars, who have not the truth of God. We expose their sin, bring it to the light, and discipline, and disciple. We are imperfect, and we donít have all truth. We are together in a sin filled world, and realize that together we can persevere to the end.

I know without any doubt that I am a child of God, and I have no intention of separating myself from the covenant people of God (the church). This according to the depart out teaching assures that I am under strong delusion, and will be cast into eternal damnation with the harlot. Yet, if I come out of her, then I can rest assured I am saved. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, yet this doctrine tells us that if we donít come out we are not saved. So my salvation depends upon grace plus my good works i.e. coming out. They will say, no, no, salvation is by grace through faith, but you have to be obedient to the Word of God, or it proves you are not really saved at all. So, if I keep the law of God and come out of her then I am saved? How is this any different then saying I cannot be saved unless I do a work (come out) to be saved? Are there any among us who have kept the law of God perfectly? Because what this is saying is that if you disobey this command you are lost, but Scripture tells us that all sin is disobedience to the law of God. How many of us can say we are without sin? And of course if we do, then we know we are a liar.

What purpose is served in promoting this depart out doctrine? Will I be saved if I am not the elect of God when I depart out of the church? Will I lose my salvation if I am the elect of God and I choose to remain in the covenant church? Is there any love, or any redeeming merit in expressing to those who know they are saved, or even to those who only think they are saved (and departing out will not change this) that they are on their way to condemnation? This teaching has no value. It is meaningless. It does not show us the grace of God. It does not express love for the brethren. It does not show us how we are to persevere in all persecution, trials and afflictions. Instead it is telling us to run away from any trial of our faith that God sees fit to bring upon His covenant people through Satan, the world and our own flesh. The only one receiving anything from this doctrine are those who teach it. They feel certain they have received something from Scripture, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit that other Christians just donít get. So they say follow me because I know, and you are clueless.

On the other side, what harm has been done if we remain in the covenant church and we are not the elect? Will our staying or leaving make any difference? What harm is there if I am the elect of God and I choose to stay in the church? Will my staying mean that I have lost my salvation? So if staying or leaving really doesnít even matter why are you promoting this doctrine? Why donít you instead encourage those who choose to remain in her to fight the good fight of faith? Encourage them to have nothing to do with the evil around them. Tell them to fight against the false teachers, the antichristí who dwell among them. Teach them to love the church as much as Christ does, and be willing to lay down their life for the brethren. For those who are convinced that their church has become so filled with abomination that it is impossible to stay, why not do all you can to encourage them, and love them, and even help them to find a covenant church where they can promote the doctrines of sovereign grace? Why not tell them they need to be with the covenant people of God, imperfect though we are?

Iíve been on the side that says come out of the church. I came out of my church for a time, and how quickly I became an island all to myself. I was alone with my God, and my Bible. I used these impersonal forums in an attempt to feel bonded with the covenant people in some way. But it was not until I returned to Christí church that I realized I had not been honoring God in my selfishness. I was concerned only about me! Poor me, my needs werenít being met, I was persecuted when I stood up for Biblical truthÖit was all about me, and none about worshipping our Lord in truth and in Spirit. All I could see in her was how imperfect, and defective, and without life and light she had become. I wasnít really grateful to God for giving Himself for His church, for His people. My life was without joy, and I canít say I had any real peace outside of the church because I was neglecting the body that Scripture tells me is vital for my spiritual growth, and edification.

Jer 15:20 And I will make thee unto this people a fenced brasen wall: and they shall fight against thee, but they shall not prevail against thee: for I am with thee to save thee and to deliver thee, saith the LORD.
Jer 15:21 And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.

Jeremiah, Godís faithful prophet, dwelt among the unfaithful nation. God did not take Jeremiah away from them. Instead God used His faithful prophet, Jeremiah to repeatedly warn, and finally cast judgment against the faithless generation, and as the Scripture proclaims Jeremiah is delivered and redeemed. The faithful are not destroyed along with the wicked even though they may dwell among them.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Php 2:14 ∂ Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
Php 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
Php 2:17 Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.

It is through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit of God that God works in me to both will and do all His good pleasure. So evidently the Holy Spirit does indeed work through the faithful witness. The one who has this power to will and do of Godís good pleasure is in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation (just like Jeremiah), but God says that he will shine as lights in the world.

Php 3:15 ∂ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 ∂ Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

We are instructed to be followers of Paul. Paul does not tell us to depart from those he calls enemies of the cross of Christ, but rather be an example to them.

The kingdom of God was taken from the Nation as a whole, but still there was a remnant, even among them saved by grace. Even though the nation was judged, the remnant within is still redeemed. Why didnít God tell them to depart from that faithless Nation? How could they still be saved when they remained part of this wicked, evil people?

Daniel 11:31-35 "And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed."

Even these words from Daniel tell us that wicked people will be among the covenant people of God. And this is said to be speaking of the end time church. Those of understanding are there to instruct many even though they will eventually be killed. God gives us another reason for not separating the elect from the wicked. And some of them of understanding shall fall, TO TRY THEM, AND TO PURGE, AND TO MAKE THEM WHITE, EVEN TO THE TIME OF THE END.

1Pe 4:12 ∂ Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Peter is addressing the church.

I could go on and on showing many verses that tell us that God has ordained that His people be in covenant with the unregenerate, and suffer persecution until that day when He will separate us.

Mt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mt 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Re 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Re 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

RW

rejected stone
Jul 26th 2007, 09:25 PM
Greetings RogerW:

I think you make some very valid points about 'staying in the church' being what God would 'call' some to do.

God has always 'called' us as individuals to perform a particular task that he has prepared us for. Historically, very few prophets have been 'allowed' to work from within the accepted structure (whether the temple, synagogue, or church). The messages they were given were 'stifled' by the demands of conformity and unity demanded by whatever 'religious authorities' held power at that time. So leaving was their only way to 'give' these messages and ensure that they were preserved.

Most O.T. prophets were persecuted (Jeremiah included) and many were killed by the 'religious elite'.

John the Baptist; prepared the way for Christ and preached repentance; from wilderness locations; because his messages upset the sensibilities of the religious and secular authorities.

Jesus taught in the synagogue where he could; even beginning there; but eventually his messages became too controversial for the leadership to endure and that venue was closed to him. Persecution followed him. We all know what happened; and who was responsible for the charges brought against him.

The early disciples (and Paul) started by trying to preach Christ in the synagogues but were persecuted; until it was no longer an option.

So no matter how much one may value the fellowship of believers in church; it seems inevitable that when God wishes to 'shake up' the 'status quo'; the ones he calls make their start in the established church; but must be 'called out' of it to have the opportunity to give voice to the message.

Conversely if God did not 'call' some to remain in the established institution; there would be none to 'disciple' those who were later called out!

So, I believe you may have been called to 'remain' and serve a very useful purpose from within; while others must be 'called out' in order to fulfill their 'purpose'.

Let none of us despise the other's 'calling'.

We should recognize that God makes provision for 'equipping' people to answer their 'call' by the use of the established churches; but if he has something to say that the churches won't allow; he must act by 'calling some out'.

Those who have been 'called out'; however should not make the same mistake as the organized church all too often makes with them. They should not 'paint them with a broad brush'; and declare that all of them are not Christians. Many devout and sincere Christians are fulfilling their call from both inside and outside the established church.

peace

AliveinChristDave
Jul 28th 2007, 05:50 AM
Greetings jiggyfly and AliveinChristDave:

On Mount Carmel;the 'prophets of Baal' sought to get an answer from their god by working themselves into a frenzy. They got excited. But their energies were wasted; worshiping the wrong God in a manner designed to 'edify man'. The 'true prophet of God; stood calmly aside watching them; confident in his relationship with the 'true and living God. This same God spoke to him in a 'still small voice' and fed him, cared for him, and encouraged him when he was dis-heartened.
Who would want to miss out on that?! Not me! And I'm so grateful that I didn't!

peace


I was just reading Elijah's encounter with the false prophets on Mt Carmel.
The thing that struck me was the first thing Elijah did was put the altar in order by arranging the stones and putting the wood on it.
When we get our altar (our heart) prepared, then fire falls.
Elijah had faith, he had unction, he had power from on high but having all this, if he hadn't prepared the altar, it would have all been for naught.

rejected stone
Jul 28th 2007, 10:57 AM
I was just reading Elijah's encounter with the false prophets on Mt Carmel.
The thing that struck me was the first thing Elijah did was put the altar in order by arranging the stones and putting the wood on it.
When we get our altar (our heart) prepared, then fire falls.
Elijah had faith, he had unction, he had power from on high but having all this, if he hadn't prepared the altar, it would have all been for naught.

Greetings AliveinChristDave:

You are so right. Did you notice anything else Elijah did that the Prophets of Baal did not do?

1 Kings 18:33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid [him] on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour [it] on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.

It is often suggested that Elijah was 'grandstanding' when he poured on the water (by making it more difficult to ignite and burn) but it was much more than that.

1 Kings 18:34 And he said, Do [it] the second time. And they did [it] the second time. And he said, Do [it] the third time. And they did [it] the third time.
1 Kings 18:35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.

So in all they poured 12 barrels of water onto the altar.(And into a trench designed to hold the water)

1 Kings 18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that [was] in the trench.

So the fire from God came down and consumed everything; (and licked up the water in the trench.) The water in the trench would not have effected the ignition of the offering of the bullock or the wood; so it wasn't there 'for show'.

Immediately after this:

1 Kings 18:41 And Elijah said unto Ahab, Get thee up, eat and drink; for [there is] a sound of abundance of rain.

1 Kings 18:45 And it came to pass in the mean while, that the heaven was black with clouds and wind, and there was a great rain. And Ahab rode, and went to Jezreel.

In the midst of a terrible drought Elijah was pouring 12 barrels of water into a trench around the altar.

The water was Elijah's sacrifice!

His was a 'more perfect sacrifice' than the bullocks which were provided to both him and the prophets of Baal alike. The Bullocks were probably dessicated from the drought anyway; of no particular value, and quite possibly not a 'fit sacrifice'..

Today people go the 'the altar' to 'grasp' for God's blessings; and make demands upon him. They too bring nothing of value to the altar with them. They only come to 'receive'.

If they do actually bring anything to 'lay there'; it is their sins that have 'desiccated' them spiritually. Sin is not a proper offering to God! It should be repented of and forsaken; but it is Not an Offering! Just as the prophets of Baal did; they bring no personal offering, a worthless one, or one provided for them.

Elijah brought something to the altar that was precious to him and rare at that time. Water in the midst of a drought!
With the calmness born of the certainty that he brought an 'acceptable sacrifice'; Elijah stood calmly by and awaited the movement of God.

Also to be noted from this passage; Elijah brought the sacrifice at an acceptable time. He brought it to glorify God. He brought it to 'turn the peopleí back to God.

The prophets of Baal danced, yammered and put on a spectacular show 'in the flesh'. But their offering was the wrong one, to the wrong 'god', made for all the wrong reasons. Much like today.

God 'repaid' Elijah's sacrifice in the 'same coin' as the sacrifice itself; an abundance of rain. Elijah's confidence in this 'return on his sacrificial investment' may be seen in his eager anticipation of the rain he watched for.

The water and rain may also be interpreted symbolically to represent 'the spirit'. Many altars are crowded these days with those seeking an 'outpouring of the spirit'; but it doesn't come. The 'drought' remains because their 'altars are dry'. They have not been taught that God does not honor sacrifices made 'in the flesh' with outpourings Ďof the spirit'.

King David also understood the principle of an acceptable sacrifice:

2 Samuel 24
24:20 And Araunah looked, and saw the king and his servants coming on toward him: and Araunah went out, and bowed himself before the king on his face upon the ground.
24:21 And Araunah said, Wherefore is my lord the king come to his servant? And David said, To buy the threshingfloor of thee, to build an altar unto the LORD, that the plague may be stayed from the people.
24:22 And Araunah said unto David, Let my lord the king take and offer up what [seemeth] good unto him: behold, [here be] oxen for burnt sacrifice, and threshing instruments and [other] instruments of the oxen for wood.
24:23 All these [things] did Araunah, [as] a king, give unto the king. And Araunah said unto the king, The LORD thy God accept thee.



24:24 And the king said unto Araunah, Nay; but I will surely buy [it] of thee at a price: neither will I offer burnt offerings unto the LORD my God of that which doth cost me nothing. So David bought the threshingfloor and the oxen for fifty shekels of silver.


24:25 And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings. So the LORD was intreated for the land, and the plague was stayed from Israel.

Something else God Ďvaluesí: Obedience. Poor King Saul learned too late that no sacrifice is of value to God if it is offered without obedience.

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.

In obedience, Jesus came and made the ĎPerfect Sacrificeí for our sins; and he taught that if we would desire to follow him; we should emulate him and live a life of Ďsacrificialí self denial.

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Some things this generation has never been taught or has conveniently forgotten.

peace

RogerW
Jul 28th 2007, 02:35 PM
I may be a poor example or good example, depending on what you are looking for.
I was a faithful church member for many years, serving as a pastor/teacher, and elder. (not all at the same time)
I had a situation as you, finding myself in a strange city away from most of my brothers and sisters in the Lord I'd attended church with in the past.
I prayed but the Lord never really laid any particular place on my heart to serve and fellowship.
That's been 10 years ago and the situation hasn't changed, but I have. God has made it clear to me that I'm a priest and that I have the right to enter into His presence and the right to learn from Him.
My wife and I at times miss going to an organized church, but frankly, we have grown past what everyone we know of teaches.
The Lord is real to us. We experience His grace and mercy daily as we pray and study and seek His will.
You have to get over the habit of self condemnation for not going to church. And you have to realize that if you are to be fed or taught it's going to have to come from the Lord to you directly.
God says "whosoever" can come. That's individual.
As a child of the father, you have the right to enter into His presence through the flesh of Jesus Christ and there fellowship with Him.
Our fellowship with others is when we meet with fellow believers who believe as we do. We don't have scheduled meetings-Just when the Lord puts us together as a group.
I'm not anti-church. But I am Pro-individual responsibility when it comes to knowing and doing the will of the Lord.
If you believe God has placed His name on you then you have the right to fellowship together with two or three others in His name (usually that's the wife/husband and kids) and have Christ in the midst.
I hope I wasn't confussing. It's wonderful to walk in the liberty of life in Christ.

Greetings AliveinChristDave,

I can empathize with your situation. I found myself in a like situation a few years back. I'm glad to hear that you remain faithful and obedient in your personal relationship with the Lord. I too used this opportunity as a time of deep personal growth in the Lord through much prayer, and indepth study of His Word.

As I continued to grow spiritually myself I began to see myself as incredibly selfish. God opened my eyes to understand doctrines I had little knowledge of before I had this time...time...time to diligently seek and pray for understanding.

Finally the time came when I realized that keeping all that God had revealed to me to myself was serving only me. And oh yes, I too had occasional like-minded Christians to fellowship together with. But those who were of the same mind, although greatly up-lifting to me, didn't need to hear some things from Scripture they had never heard before.

God gave us His universal church to abide together in. From the very beginning we were warned that the world, the lusts of our flesh, and the devil would be there also. If you have indeed grown beyond what most in the corporate church know and teach, then much greater the need for you to return to teach those truths that God has given you. Did God give you or I understanding to hord to ourselves, and not share in His corporate body? What if Paul and the other apostles had decided like we have that the corporate church is individual, and made no effort to bring the people of God together? Where would His body be?

The corporate church today has become almost altogether fallen, and many have little if any light left in them. But Christ never gave up on His body, and from this universal body God draws and calls His own, and one day He will gather from within her His bride to dwell in His presence forever. I believe the church is in the terrible state that she is because faithful men of God like you and I get tired and discouraged so we decide we won't put on the armour and we won't take up His sword to fight anymore. We simply want to live in peace, worshipping our God without the stress and time that goes along with SERVING.

It is my prayer that you, and others like you will read this and feel conviction to the core of your soul. The corporate church, which represents the kingdom of God on earth cannot survive without faithful men willing to die to themselves, and even to die physically fighting for her doctrinal purity, and True Light.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Jul 28th 2007, 03:02 PM
I’ve heard this passage from 2Co used to show that we are not to be unequally yoked, or in covenant relationship with unbelievers, so when we find ourselves in fellowship or in the corporate church with reprobates and false teachers we MUST come out of that church.

Context for 2nd Corinthians 6:14-18 begins in chapter 2.

Scripture does NOT make distinction between those who are in covenant outwardly and those who are in covenant inwardly. We are to treat all as brothers and sisters, who claim the name of Christ, and are baptized into the covenant body, called church. These are all members of His covenant body outwardly, and some are members of His Eternal Body. But we are told that there are those among us who do not possess the Spirit of God.

1 Co. 2:14-15 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Now Paul contrasts the difference between those not having the Spirit of God, and those who are yet babes in Christ. Paul tells us they are still carnal, yet he does not speak of them as unbelievers.

1 Co. 3:1-3 - And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Here again even though there is envy, strife, divisions, and a carnal nature, Paul reassures them, they are the temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells in them. The judging of the heart will be done by God alone.

1 Co. 3:16-17 - Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Paul tells us to deliver the fornicator unto Satan for the saving of his soul. Notice Paul did not tell us to flee from this fornicator.

1 Co. 5:1-2 - It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

1 Co. 5:4-5 - In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Paul says don’t keep company with anyone calling himself a brother who is a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortion. But notice Paul does not tell us to flee from this person, but rather that we are to put this person away from among ourselves. In other words we expose their sin, or bring it to the light to be judged. So, while we are called to judge between that which is good and evil, God will judge the heart. It is a call to keep ourselves from evil.

1 Co. 5:9-13 - I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Paul assures us that no unrighteous person shall inherit the kingdom of God. But then he reminds us that some of us were every bit as unrighteous as the unrighteousness he names here. Still Paul does not say to flee from them, but rather to recognize that you are no longer like them because you are led by the Spirit of God. So don’t act like them, don’t exhort them as though they were something great.

1 Co. 6:9-11 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Paul reminds us who our bodies belong to, and how we ought to magnify the name of Christ in our bodies. He tells us to flee, not from a church, but from fornication. In other words be holy as Christ is holy. Walk in the light of Christ you have been given.

1 Co. 6:15-20 - Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? Know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? For two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

Christ speaks of His covenant body as that of a husband and wife. He tells us that in the marriage relationship, which is a picture of the marriage between Christ, and His covenant bride, we are not to separate. How could a believing wife/husband be commanded to remain with an unbelieving spouse and yet be told to separate ourselves from those in the covenant body who are reprobate? It makes no sense to say believers must remain unequally yoked in marriage, which is far more personal, and yet in the covenant church we are commanded to depart from unbelievers?

1 Co. 7:11-14 - And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, let not the wife depart from her husband: but and if she depart, let her remained unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: if any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

The work of the Lord is given to the church, and the labor in the Lord is not in vain. We are to be steadfast and unmovable.

1 Co. 15:58 - Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Paul gives us a clear picture of Who we are to imitate, and how we are to abide in this earthly temple surrounded by abomination.

2 Co. 4:1-7 - Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; but have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

We are promised that our earthly house is only temporary. We have a building of God eternal in the heavens awaiting us.

2 Co. 5:1 - For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

We must be certain of this heavenly house because in this temporary, mortal body there will be a day of reckoning.

2 Co. 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

All of Corinthians is teaching us that all who call themselves by the name of Christ are called to be different then unsaved men and women. We are no longer to live in these bodies of flesh as though we do not have the Holy Spirit guiding us. We are new creatures, and the old things have passed away.

2 Co. 5:17 - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 - And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2 Co. 6:3-9 - Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: but in all things approving ourselves as the minister of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; by pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, by honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

When we read 2 Co. 6:14-18 we can understand that Paul is NOT telling us to come out of the church. He is telling us to walk, while in these bodies of flesh as those who have the presence of the indwelling Spirit. We are called to separate ourselves from those things of the flesh we once thought pleasing, and found comfort in. We are to live as righteous, because He Who is righteous has made us righteous. We are to no longer have any agreement with those things of the flesh, we are to separate ourselves, not from the church, but from our old destructive behavior. This old nature no longer has dominion over us, we can walk by faith and not by sight. So put away those things that are unclean, and God will receive us.

2 Co. 7:1 - Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse OURSELVES from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

The letters written to the church are for the church throughout the church era. The message to the first century church is the same message given to the church throughout time. If Christ were telling us that we must come out of the church near the end of time, He would have been giving the same message to the church in the beginning of the church era. We cannot read these passages of Scripture and assume they mean one thing for those first century disciples, and something entirely different for us. If we interpret these verses of Scripture as saying that we must abandon every church, then Paul would also be telling the first century Corinthians they must abandon the church that he had just established. If this is the case then the church is defeated from the moment she was established.

RW

Mograce2U
Jul 28th 2007, 04:33 PM
Hi rejectedstone, #63 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1334889&postcount=63)
You might also note at the end of this display of God's power, Elijah slew all the false prophets. Would that we could still do that today... then perhaps the churches would be rid of them! As well as the Balaam's and Nicolaitins and false teachers and their false converts.

But our gatherings together today are not in fellowship in the Lord, but in sin - and that is what is being encouraged in the churches. How can we not partake of their sin and error if we join them in what they do? I see Roger's heart in this, but I honestly don't see how we can be a light in these dark places, when we are silenced if we object or refuse to go along with them.

Does my sitting in the pew, angered at what I hear, show forth my piety or righteousness? I don't think so. Instead it takes away my peace and troubles my spirit and makes me wonder what on earth I am in this place for. If the churches are filled with their own ways it is because they want it that way. Where ever it is I am to find fellowship so that I can encourage the brethren, it will not be where they do not want to hear it. I have liberty in the Lord and the freedom to submit to those who rule in righteousness. I am not however free to submit to those who do otherwise!

My spirit only desires rebellion in these places - if my peace does not return to me then I am to wipe the dust off my feet and move on.

rejected stone
Jul 28th 2007, 06:11 PM
Hi rejectedstone, #63 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1334889&postcount=63)
You might also note at the end of this display of God's power, Elijah slew all the false prophets. Would that we could still do that today... then perhaps the churches would be rid of them! As well as the Balaam's and Nicolaitins and false teachers and their false converts.

But our gatherings together today are not in fellowship in the Lord, but in sin - and that is what is being encouraged in the churches. How can we not partake of their sin and error if we join them in what they do? I see Roger's heart in this, but I honestly don't see how we can be a light in these dark places, when we are silenced if we object or refuse to go along with them.

Does my sitting in the pew, angered at what I hear, show forth my piety or righteousness? I don't think so. Instead it takes away my peace and troubles my spirit and makes me wonder what on earth I am in this place for. If the churches are filled with their own ways it is because they want it that way. Where ever it is I am to find fellowship so that I can encourage the brethren, it will not be where they do not want to hear it. I have liberty in the Lord and the freedom to submit to those who rule in righteousness. I am not however free to submit to those who do otherwise!

My spirit only desires rebellion in these places - if my peace does not return to me then I am to wipe the dust off my feet and move on.

Greetings bother Mograce2U:

If I kept a diary; I could have lifted your posting from it verbatim. that is 'exactly' how I felt sitting in those errant churches. I was finding no peace listening to messages founding upon obvious error.

I could not serve to help them 'find their way back', (as RogerW suggests) as I was deliberately excluded from contributing. I did try that in the beginning and lasted as long as they allowed it; but soon enough the 'noose tightened'; and no opportunity remained.

It served absolutely 'No Purpose Whatsoever' for me to sit there cataloging their abominations (be assured God is doing that); and it only gave them the excuse to 'blame me' for their failure to have a 'break-through' of 'the Spirit'.

Yes, they even resorted to using me as an excuse for their obvious failures; casting the blame on me; suggesting that I was 'quenching the spirit' in them! No one can 'quench the spirit' in another believer; only the believers themselves can do that; through failing to respond 'in obedience' to what the 'spirit convicts' them with. I left so that they can fail on their on 'merits' (or lack thereof); without recourse to a 'scapegoat'!

Each believer is personally 'answerable' to the 'Holy Spirit' that resides in them. If this were not so; all Satan would need to do is 'marshal his forces' and get just one so-called 'spirit-quencher' to attend each service everywhere and his work would be done'!
As we well know the work of God moves along powerfully with numbers of unbelievers (how else would they get saved) and 'back sliders' in attendance; when the place they attend is lead by the Spirit of Truth..

It is when the 'leadership' and the majority of the 'church body' readily accept error and 'quench the spirit' within them which seeks to correct them; that the spirit is quenched.

And the 'lamp stand' is removed from among them.

There may well be many churches which are on the 'precipice' of turning away from God and His truth; which might be aided to turn back to God, were some one like RogerW to remain. In a case like that, should it arise; I too would recommend remaining. But if the 'tide turns' against the truth of God; get out!

Thanks, and peace

AliveinChristDave
Jul 29th 2007, 12:07 AM
Greetings bother Mograce2U:

If I kept a diary; I could have lifted your posting from it verbatim. that is 'exactly' how I felt sitting in those errant churches. I was finding no peace listening to messages founding upon obvious error.

I could not serve to help them 'find their way back', (as RogerW suggests) as I was deliberately excluded from contributing. I did try that in the beginning and lasted as long as they allowed it; but soon enough the 'noose tightened'; and no opportunity remained.

It served absolutely 'No Purpose Whatsoever' for me to sit there cataloging their abominations (be assured God is doing that); and it only gave them the excuse to 'blame me' for their failure to have a 'break-through' of 'the Spirit'.

Yes, they even resorted to using me as an excuse for their obvious failures; casting the blame on me; suggesting that I was 'quenching the spirit' in them! No one can 'quench the spirit' in another believer; only the believers themselves can do that; through failing to respond 'in obedience' to what the 'spirit convicts' them with. I left so that they can fail on their on 'merits' (or lack thereof); without recourse to a 'scapegoat'!

Each believer is personally 'answerable' to the 'Holy Spirit' that resides in them. If this were not so; all Satan would need to do is 'marshal his forces' and get just one so-called 'spirit-quencher' to attend each service everywhere and his work would be done'!
As we well know the work of God moves along powerfully with numbers of unbelievers (how else would they get saved) and 'back sliders' in attendance; when the place they attend is lead by the Spirit of Truth..

It is when the 'leadership' and the majority of the 'church body' readily accept error and 'quench the spirit' within them which seeks to correct them; that the spirit is quenched.

And the 'lamp stand' is removed from among them.

There may well be many churches which are on the 'precipice' of turning away from God and His truth; which might be aided to turn back to God, were some one like RogerW to remain. In a case like that, should it arise; I too would recommend remaining. But if the 'tide turns' against the truth of God; get out!

Thanks, and peace

I will say Amen to what you said too.
Most of us have tried to minister in churches and been either run off or just squeezed out.
Now, I'm just open and upfront with pastors I come in contact with. I'm not going to compromise what the Lord has shown me just to have a pulpit. I know that might be considered bull headed by many, but I know conflict will eventually come so why hasten it.
In Christ,
Dave

ravi4u2
Jul 29th 2007, 12:11 AM
We need no other mediators between us and Father God, besides Christ Jesus. When the equippers who are gift of the Son, attempt to take the place of the One Mediator, whether knowingly or unknowingly, they become a stumbling block instead of being a gift.

Skymarie
Jul 29th 2007, 04:13 PM
This is a hot potata, always has been. Course, I've always enjoyed hot potatas LOL

Those of us who have been by God's grace given revelation and maturity that Church (capital C, what it really is) is Christ living in us and the simplicity of Christ....can not expect those who haven't gotten there yet, to see this. ITs a new improved different way to look at something. If a person has no problem with church as it is normally practiced, then fine. But if you are sitting there in the pew, wondering what in the world is going on here, why do I feel grieved when here I am doing what the bible says to do (woops, look again!) but why is my spirit so burdened by all this, whats happening??? Then perhaps God is awakening something within them and there's hope for emancipation. We once were there. Its a journey the Holy Spirit takes us on...our job as ambassadors of Christ....is to love in spirit and in truth, to BE love in the flesh, by faith, to express the Life of Christ in our daily living....as we go...as we do our work, this is Jesus doing the work, as we speak, this is Jesus speaking, He's real people, this is the New Covenant, the Cross did this wonderful thing! I PRAISE HIS NAME TODAY! I pray for those trapped in the building thinking they are being obedient, that God sets them free, there is soooo much more, so much more.....

Marcat1702003
Jul 30th 2007, 12:00 AM
But if you are sitting there in the pew, wondering what in the world is going on here, why do I feel grieved when here I am doing what the bible says to do (woops, look again!) but why is my spirit so burdened by all this, whats happening??? Then perhaps God is awakening something within them and there's hope for emancipation. We once were there...

How grieved I was! I tried to work through it for over a year. I literally mourned for corporate worship; for some spiritual meat. There were so many activities; so many multi-tasking individuals all thinking they were doing something "for God". No more Bibles being carried (it's all done for you); no more line upon line teaching (just fill in the blanks on the back of your hand out); no more tissues at the altar (they are too messy, anyone who needs to cry can go to the bathroom); lots and lots of activities, dvds, fund raisers (that are not to be called fund raisers), parking lot carnivals (but they are called outreach). They thought I was making a mountain out of a molehill. After more than a year, I simply stayed home. No one has ever called. I pray for them every day.

ravi4u2
Aug 1st 2007, 03:16 AM
How grieved I was! I tried to work through it for over a year. I literally mourned for corporate worship; for some spiritual meat. There were so many activities; so many multi-tasking individuals all thinking they were doing something "for God". No more Bibles being carried (it's all done for you); no more line upon line teaching (just fill in the blanks on the back of your hand out); no more tissues at the altar (they are too messy, anyone who needs to cry can go to the bathroom); lots and lots of activities, dvds, fund raisers (that are not to be called fund raisers), parking lot carnivals (but they are called outreach). They thought I was making a mountain out of a molehill. After more than a year, I simply stayed home. No one has ever called. I pray for them every day.Just 'be' the Church right where you are...

Brother Mark
Aug 1st 2007, 10:39 AM
Food for thought...

Didn't Jesus knowledge of grace and truth surpass all in his synagogue? Wasn't the synagogue full of errors at the time he went? Weren't the "elders" at the time out of line in their doctrine and spirit? Didn't many in the synagogue actually resist God?

Yet, as was his habit, he went to the synagogue anyway. :hmm:

Just food for thought.

jiggyfly
Aug 1st 2007, 11:20 AM
Food for thought...

Didn't Jesus knowledge of grace and truth surpass all in his synagogue? Wasn't the synagogue full of errors at the time he went? Weren't the "elders" at the time out of line in their doctrine and spirit? Didn't many in the synagogue actually resist God?

Yet, as was his habit, he went to the synagogue anyway. :hmm:

Just food for thought.
I love this kind of thought provoking posting. Good response Brother Mark.
You are right and He also warned His disciples to be very careful of the pharisees and there false teaching. In the same manner He went to the tax collector's house and was seen talking with a whore @ the public watering hole. Jesus' presence in the synagogue doesn't lend His approval anymore than it does to acts of sin. Another thing to consider is that the synagogue and the temple of Jesus' day were not one in the same but rather two seperate places and represent two seperate systems. Today, although they have combined the two into one system, they share much of the same error and mind set and in many cases deny some of the new covenant realities.

AliveinChristDave
Aug 1st 2007, 03:18 PM
Food for thought...

Didn't Jesus knowledge of grace and truth surpass all in his synagogue? Wasn't the synagogue full of errors at the time he went? Weren't the "elders" at the time out of line in their doctrine and spirit? Didn't many in the synagogue actually resist God?

Yet, as was his habit, he went to the synagogue anyway. :hmm:

Just food for thought.

Jesus went to the synagogue to teach and preach.
He knew He'd be rejected.
He knew His message wouldnít be received.
He knew God's wrath would be directed toward that place.
He never went there for fellowship or encouragement.
Teachers who needed to be taught the basic principles of God's Word ruled there.
He never intended to put new wine in the old wine skins.
We have a new and better way today for entering into God's presence.
The old Jewish system didn't work.
Once we get past the child state and grow into mature sons of God, neither do we need teachers and tutors to tell us how to live.
Today, the blind lead the blind and they're all falling into ditches.
Christ would have loved to gather His children who were trusting in the Temple under His wing and love and protect them, but they wouldn't listen so He judged the Temple and it became desolate.
How much sorer punishment is reserved for those today who reject the truth of our Lord and walk in their own ways.
If I wasn't confident that within me I have the power to understand, receive and do every truth In God's Word, I'd run to the nearest church and plead for help.
But their help would be to entertain me, thrill me and psychologically reinforce my carnal my mind.
Within me is the living Christ. Through Him I approach my loving Father on my own, without the help of man and from Him I receive all that He is.
What more should I seek?
We all minister to those who worship within the corporate body called the church.
Telling one of them to come out from among them and be separate is like asking a 1 year old to give up their pacifier.
God tells us to beware of Dogs, Evil Workers and Those who cut themselves (the concision) In Phil. 4:2
Sadly the majority of messages coming from pulpits today are coming from men who are in one or more of those three categories. Think on that.
Needy people come to a needy pastor who lives to satisfy a needy system and no one ever has any needs met. (except the need to be entertained or told how bad (or good) you are or how great the system works or what kind of personal sacrifice to make)
Life never can be produced from dead bodies.
God is the God of the Living. It's His life that quickens us.
In Christ,
Dave

Brother Mark
Aug 1st 2007, 03:35 PM
Jesus went to the synagogue to teach and preach.
He knew He'd be rejected.
He knew His message wouldnít be received.
He knew God's wrath would be directed toward that place.
He never went there for fellowship or encouragement.
Teachers who needed to be taught the basic principles of God's Word ruled there.
He never intended to put new wine in the old wine skins.
We have a new and better way today for entering into God's presence.
The old Jewish system didn't work.
Once we get past the child state and grow into mature sons of God, neither do we need teachers and tutors to tell us how to live.
Today, the blind lead the blind and they're all falling into ditches.
Christ would have loved to gather His children who were trusting in the Temple under His wing and love and protect them, but they wouldn't listen so He judged the Temple and it became desolate.
How much sorer punishment is reserved for those today who reject the truth of our Lord and walk in their own ways.
If I wasn't confident that within me I have the power to understand, receive and do every truth In God's Word, I'd run to the nearest church and plead for help.
But their help would be to entertain me, thrill me and psychologically reinforce my carnal my mind.
Within me is the living Christ. Through Him I approach my loving Father on my own, without the help of man and from Him I receive all that He is.
What more should I seek?
We all minister to those who worship within the corporate body called the church.
Telling one of them to come out from among them and be separate is like asking a 1 year old to give up their pacifier.
God tells us to beware of Dogs, Evil Workers and Those who cut themselves (the concision) In Phil. 4:2
Sadly the majority of messages coming from pulpits today are coming from men who are in one or more of those three categories. Think on that.
Needy people come to a needy pastor who lives to satisfy a needy system and no one ever has any needs met. (except the need to be entertained or told how bad (or good) you are or how great the system works or what kind of personal sacrifice to make)
Life never can be produced from dead bodies.
God is the God of the Living. It's His life that quickens us.
In Christ,
Dave

Hmmm. Luke 2:41-52

41 And His parents used to go to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. 42 And when He became twelve, they went up there according to the custom of the Feast; 43 and as they were returning, after spending the full number of days, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. And His parents were unaware of it, 44 but supposed Him to be in the caravan, and went a day's journey; and they began looking for Him among their relatives and acquaintances. 45 And when they did not find Him, they returned to Jerusalem, looking for Him. 46 And it came about that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them, and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard Him were amazed at His understanding and His answers. 48 And when they saw Him, they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, "Son, why have You treated us this way? Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You." 49 And He said to them, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?" 50 And they did not understand the statement which He had made to them. 51 And He went down with them, and came to Nazareth; and He continued in subjection to them; and His mother treasured all these things in her heart.

52 And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
NASB

Scripture doesn't indicate he did much teaching before he was 30. I wonder what he did before he started his ministry? He still went to the synagogue as was his habit. Perhaps he went for the Lord.

ravi4u2
Aug 1st 2007, 07:31 PM
Hmmm. Luke 2:41-52

41 And His parents used to go to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. 42 And when He became twelve, they went up there according to the custom of the Feast; 43 and as they were returning, after spending the full number of days, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. And His parents were unaware of it, 44 but supposed Him to be in the caravan, and went a day's journey; and they began looking for Him among their relatives and acquaintances. 45 And when they did not find Him, they returned to Jerusalem, looking for Him. 46 And it came about that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them, and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard Him were amazed at His understanding and His answers. 48 And when they saw Him, they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, "Son, why have You treated us this way? Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You." 49 And He said to them, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?" 50 And they did not understand the statement which He had made to them. 51 And He went down with them, and came to Nazareth; and He continued in subjection to them; and His mother treasured all these things in her heart.

52 And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
NASB

Scripture doesn't indicate he did much teaching before he was 30. I wonder what he did before he started his ministry? He still went to the synagogue as was his habit. Perhaps he went for the Lord.The scripture is of Jesus in the Temple. It was the requirement of the Law. He came to fulfill the Law. We are no longer in the Old Covenant. We need not go to any temple anymore to fulfill any requirements.