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Firstfruits
Jul 8th 2007, 11:05 AM
It is written, Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Judgement also will I lay to the line, and righteouness to the plummet; and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isaiah 28:16-18

It is also written But when the fulness of time was come, God sent his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Galatians 4:4,5

And according to 2 Corinthians 3:7 it states But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away.

And saying The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent ye and believe the Gospel Mark 1:15.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel For Isaiah saith Lord who hath believed our report.
Romans 10:16. Isaiah 28:19. Isaiah 53:1-12. John 12:37.

My questions are these;

Has God kept these promises? as in Isaiah 28:14-18 (above)

Do we believe Gods promises?

diffangle
Jul 8th 2007, 03:56 PM
Yes, I believe YHWHs promises.

I guess I'm not fully understanding what you're trying to get at... are you saying that the Torah = ministration of death? If so, I would have to disagree. There were parts of Torah that required death either to the sinner or to an animal for the sin of the person, imo, that's the "ministration of death" that Yahushua took away with His Ultimate Sacrifice. It doesn't bring death to us to obey YHWHs Word/Commands... it can actually bring blessings, as blessings are also a part of Torah.

Shalom :)

Studyin'2Show
Jul 8th 2007, 05:39 PM
2 Corinthians 3:7-9
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.

Torah is merely instruction which, because of the nature of man, can lead only to death. Salvation which, because of the nature of man, could not be earned was given freely by the Holy Spirit through faith in Messiah. It is a "good/better" reference, not a "bad/good" reference. If the had this type of glory, this has much better glory. Not adversarial. Paul clear teaches that the Law is not bad but that "seeking justification through the Law" IS bad. This is very different than seeking justification though the blood of Messiah and seeking direction from Torah. It is not an either or but rather a this is more.

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Jul 8th 2007, 08:28 PM
Yes, I believe YHWHs promises.

I guess I'm not fully understanding what you're trying to get at... are you saying that the Torah = ministration of death? If so, I would have to disagree. There were parts of Torah that required death either to the sinner or to an animal for the sin of the person, imo, that's the "ministration of death" that Yahushua took away with His Ultimate Sacrifice. It doesn't bring death to us to obey YHWHs Word/Commands... it can actually bring blessings, as blessings are also a part of Torah.

Shalom :)

Remember that is what the people called it, not my words. Therefore
What is the ministration of death written and engraved in stone?

What is the ministration of condemnation?

Has Jesus freed those that were under the law? As it is written.

What did Paul mean when he said " And the commandment which was ordained unto life, I found to be unto death" Romans 7:10?

Studyin'2Show
Jul 9th 2007, 02:32 AM
I disagree with diffangle in that I agree that Torah without Messiah, IS death. However, we have Messiah who is life. Not either or but good and better. I don't believe Paul sees these things as adversarial, as we see here:

Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

When we get away from seeing this issue as two adversarial sides, we will recognize that they compliment each other when seen in the proper context.

God Bless!

diffangle
Jul 9th 2007, 02:48 AM
I disagree with diffangle in that I agree that Torah without Messiah, IS death. However, we have Messiah who is life. Not either or but good and better. I don't believe Paul sees these things as adversarial, as we see here:

Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

When we get away from seeing this issue as two adversarial sides, we will recognize that they compliment each other when seen in the proper context.

God Bless!
Hopefully you know better that I don't think Torah without Messiah = life :o. I was simply saying that I don't believe Paul was saying the Torah was the ministration of death in 2 Cor. 3:7. Do you think the Torah is the ministry of death? :confused

Firstfruits
Jul 9th 2007, 08:46 AM
I disagree with diffangle in that I agree that Torah without Messiah, IS death. However, we have Messiah who is life. Not either or but good and better. I don't believe Paul sees these things as adversarial, as we see here:

Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

When we get away from seeing this issue as two adversarial sides, we will recognize that they compliment each other when seen in the proper context.

God Bless!

Would this be in accordance with Matthew 5:17, which Jesus explained in Luke 24:25-27,44-48 was to do with him fulfilling that which was written about him in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms.
Which is the message of the kingdom?

Just to clarify the covenant written and engraved in stone; it is written,

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Deuteronomy 4:13.

These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me. Deut.5:1-22.

With this in mind, concerning the ministration of death, written and engraven in stone, has God kept his promise, for Paul to say that it has been abolished, according to Gods promise given through the prophet Isaiah?

Is there another covenant that was made and written in stone?

Studyin'2Show
Jul 9th 2007, 11:06 AM
Would this be in accordance with Matthew 5:17, which Jesus explained in Luke 24:25-27,44-48 was to do with him fulfilling that which was written about him in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms.
Which is the message of the kingdom?

Just to clarify the covenant written and engraved in stone; it is written,

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Deuteronomy 4:13.

These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me. Deut.5:1-22.

With this in mind, concerning the ministration of death, written and engraven in stone, has God kept his promise, for Paul to say that it has been abolished, according to Gods promise given through the prophet Isaiah?

Is there another covenant that was made and written in stone?I guess I'm missing your point. :hmm: I have not disputed that the Law given through Moses is what Paul refers to as the "ministration of death". Torah without Messiah IS death. However, I am not talking about Torah WITHOUT Messiah. I have accepted Messiah, and have thus been saved by grace through faith. What I dispute is that the Law was annulled or abolished. We have been redeemed from the CURSE of the Law but the Law itself was NOT the curse. Read Psalm 119. The Law of God is good; it is to be delighted in. I'm also not comfortable equating the agreement with hell with the covenant with God. I don't think He would agree with your assessment that a covenant with Him was an agreement with hell.

Romans 6:16 - Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

When we sin, we are essentially making an agreement with hell. Yeshua, through His righteous blood, has annulled THAT agreement. Hermeneutics is crucial to exegeting scripture.
Hopefully you know better that I don't think Torah without Messiah = life :o. I was simply saying that I don't believe Paul was saying the Torah was the ministration of death in 2 Cor. 3:7. Do you think the Torah is the ministry of death? :confusedYes. I believe Paul WAS saying that observing Torah without accepting Messiah was death. Torah ALONE was death; it could not save. If Torah could save, there would have been no need for Messiah. But notice that Paul says this "ministration of death" was glorious! I believe it still is when combined with the much GREATER glory that is Messiah! I don't think Paul was disrespecting Torah in any way. He was just telling it like it is.

God Bless!

diffangle
Jul 9th 2007, 02:28 PM
Yes. I believe Paul WAS saying that observing Torah without accepting Messiah was death. Torah ALONE was death; it could not save. If Torah could save, there would have been no need for Messiah. But notice that Paul says this "ministration of death" was glorious! I believe it still is when combined with the much GREATER glory that is Messiah! I don't think Paul was disrespecting Torah in any way. He was just telling it like it is.



Okay I see what you're saying, it makes a lot of sense and I'll think about it some more. But, for the record, in case there has been any confusion as to where I stand... I've never thought that the Torah without Yahushua brings life, I know the only thing that saves us is Yahushua. :saint:

Shalom

Firstfruits
Jul 9th 2007, 03:34 PM
I guess I'm missing your point. :hmm: I have not disputed that the Law given through Moses is what Paul refers to as the "ministration of death". Torah without Messiah IS death. However, I am not talking about Torah WITHOUT Messiah. I have accepted Messiah, and have thus been saved by grace through faith. What I dispute is that the Law was annulled or abolished. We have been redeemed from the CURSE of the Law but the Law itself was NOT the curse. Read Psalm 119. The Law of God is good; it is to be delighted in. I'm also not comfortable equating the agreement with hell with the covenant with God. I don't think He would agree with your assessment that a covenant with Him was an agreement with hell.

Romans 6:16 - Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

When we sin, we are essentially making an agreement with hell. Yeshua, through His righteous blood, has annulled THAT agreement. Hermeneutics is crucial to exegeting scripture.Yes. I believe Paul WAS saying that observing Torah without accepting Messiah was death. Torah ALONE was death; it could not save. If Torah could save, there would have been no need for Messiah. But notice that Paul says this "ministration of death" was glorious! I believe it still is when combined with the much GREATER glory that is Messiah! I don't think Paul was disrespecting Torah in any way. He was just telling it like it is.

God Bless!

Paul states; Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come. That Christ should suffer and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people and to the Gentiles.

Paul believed all things written in the law and in the prophets concerning what would happen to Christ according to those scriptures.
This is in agreement with Christs explanation of Matthew 5:17
in Luke 24:25-27,44-48.

Fulfilling the law of commandments, is not the same as fulfulling what is written in the law, about the prophecies christ came to fulfill.
From the latter we have the message of the kingdom, the life of christ, and the promise of salvation through Christ, and his ultimate return.
This is the law which we establish.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 9th 2007, 09:03 PM
Paul states; Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come. That Christ should suffer and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people and to the Gentiles.

Paul believed all things written in the law and in the prophets concerning what would happen to Christ according to those scriptures.
This is in agreement with Christs explanation of Matthew 5:17
in Luke 24:25-27,44-48.

Fulfilling the law of commandments, is not the same as fulfulling what is written in the law, about the prophecies christ came to fulfill.
From the latter we have the message of the kingdom, the life of christ, and the promise of salvation through Christ, and his ultimate return.
This is the law which we establish.I'm still not getting your point. There is much that has been fulfilled and there is what is yet to be fulfilled, but what does that have to do with enjoying the feasts God said were His for His people to celebrate forever? :hmm:

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Jul 10th 2007, 09:48 AM
I'm still not getting your point. There is much that has been fulfilled and there is what is yet to be fulfilled, but what does that have to do with enjoying the feasts God said were His for His people to celebrate forever? :hmm:

God Bless!

Luke 24:25-27,44-48

The Messiah came to fulfill the prophecies concerning himself, ie;
Seed of a woman - Genesis 3:15
Seed of Abraham - Genesis 12:3
From the tribe of Judah - Genesis 49:10
Anointed & eternal - Psalms 45:6

Which commandments in the Torah are Messianic prophecies?

Studyin'2Show
Jul 10th 2007, 11:03 AM
Luke 24:25-27,44-48

The Messiah came to fulfill the prophecies concerning himself, ie;
Seed of a woman - Genesis 3:15
Seed of Abraham - Genesis 12:3
From the tribe of Judah - Genesis 49:10
Anointed & eternal - Psalms 45:6

Which commandments in the Torah are Messianic prophecies?I've read the scriptures and am aware of the over 300 Messianic prophesies that Yeshua fulfilled. What does that have to do with the LORD's feasts? Because Messiah fulfilled them doesn't mean it's suddenly bad to observe them. If you celebrate Christmas do you feel it's bad to continue because Christ has already fulfilled His birth or do you celebrate it as a remembrance of that fulfillment? If you could please connect the dots I would like to understand your position on WHY you believe that God's forever feasts should not be so.

As to your OP questions, yes and yes. Now, can you please explain your point?

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Jul 10th 2007, 03:39 PM
I've read the scriptures and am aware of the over 300 Messianic prophesies that Yeshua fulfilled. What does that have to do with the LORD's feasts? Because Messiah fulfilled them doesn't mean it's suddenly bad to observe them. If you celebrate Christmas do you feel it's bad to continue because Christ has already fulfilled His birth or do you celebrate it as a remembrance of that fulfillment? If you could please connect the dots I would like to understand your position on WHY you believe that God's forever feasts should not be so.

As to your OP questions, yes and yes. Now, can you please explain your point?

God Bless!

I believe the confusion is the use of language, Jesus kept the feasts, as with the Torah nothing was to be added or taken away it must be kept as it was given, whereas he fulfilled the prophecies that were written concerning himself acording to that which is written in the law and the prophets and the psalms. Anything written in the law concerning Jesus must be fulfilled, under the new covenant through Christ we are neither the Holy Ghost, or the apostles have command us to keep that which is written in the law of commandments; For it seemed good to the Holy ghost and to us to law upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye obstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Acts 15:28,29.

Again christ did not keep the prophecies he fulfilled them.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 10th 2007, 06:13 PM
I believe the confusion is the use of language, Jesus kept the feasts, as with the Torah nothing was to be added or taken away it must be kept as it was given, whereas he fulfilled the prophecies that were written concerning himself acording to that which is written in the law and the prophets and the psalms. Anything written in the law concerning Jesus must be fulfilled, under the new covenant through Christ we are neither the Holy Ghost, or the apostles have command us to keep that which is written in the law of commandments; For it seemed good to the Holy ghost and to us to law upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye obstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Acts 15:28,29.

Again christ did not keep the prophecies he fulfilled them.There are still things TO BE fulfilled, as well but yes He fulfilled many prophecies. However, I still don't get the point you want to make here. Yes, God is faithful. Now what? Where are you going from there? Yeshua kept the feasts and Sabbaths and He bade us to follow Him. WDJD? "What did Jesus do? These are the things I want to do. It's not about being bound to do anything. Are you bound to celebrate the days you celebrate; Christmas, birthdays, anniversaries, etc? Or do you celebrate these things because you WANT to? That is the issue. I am not bound to the Law. I am not under the Law. So, again, where is your train of thought going here? I'd really like to understand your position.

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Jul 11th 2007, 07:52 AM
There are still things TO BE fulfilled, as well but yes He fulfilled many prophecies. However, I still don't get the point you want to make here. Yes, God is faithful. Now what? Where are you going from there? Yeshua kept the feasts and Sabbaths and He bade us to follow Him. WDJD? "What did Jesus do? These are the things I want to do. It's not about being bound to do anything. Are you bound to celebrate the days you celebrate; Christmas, birthdays, anniversaries, etc? Or do you celebrate these things because you WANT to? That is the issue. I am not bound to the Law. I am not under the Law. So, again, where is your train of thought going here? I'd really like to understand your position.

God Bless!

God said in Amos 5:21-23. I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solelm assemblies, Though you offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts. Take away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.

According to the prophet Isaiah it is written; Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble to me; I am weary to bear them. Isaiah 1:13,14.

Has God changed his position concerning these scriptures?

Studyin'2Show
Jul 11th 2007, 12:15 PM
God said in Amos 5:21-23. I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solelm assemblies, Though you offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts. Take away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.

According to the prophet Isaiah it is written; Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble to me; I am weary to bear them. Isaiah 1:13,14.

Has God changed his position concerning these scriptures?You are quite correct! Now, look at the pronoun used. He said He hates THEIR feasts days, new moons, sabbaths, VAIN oblations, etc. They had profaned what He had ordained. He was of no concern to them. He was not being sought. They sought their own validation. Now, let me ask you a question. Do you believe God changes? Do you believe that God knows the end from the beginning? When God spoke was He mistaken?

Leviticus 23:2 & 4 - 2 Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘The feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.

4 These are the feasts of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times.

I am not referring to celebrating my feasts or sabbath, but HIS! Not in vain repetition for my own benefit, but for His glory. Not to honor myself but to honor HIM! Look in the rabbinic Jewish community even today. For many, seeking after YHWH is not the focus but following the traditions of man is what is of greatest importance to them. They celebrate by their own traditions in many cases and not as it was intended to bring the nations to YHWH. Since, I believe, you have misunderstood the words YHWH gave through Isaiah, I have another passage from the same prophet for clarity. Isaiah 56 in many Bibles is labeled 'Salvation to the Gentiles'.

Isaiah 56:6-7
6 “ Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

If you read this later chapter, maybe you will see that neither Isaiah nor God, thought His Sabbath was bad. Since I know the scripture does not contradict itself, I take the time to understand what the early chapter of this prophet is to mean. Some would say that the 'true' celebration of Christmas is something good, but the way many commercialize it and remove any trace of Messiah from it, is evil. If they said, "Your Christmas is evil" to someone who had merely commercialized it, would you understand that as them saying that Christmas itself is evil? YHWH was speaking of the perversion of these things, not the essence of them. Look again at the pronoun used and it should bring some clarity.

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Jul 11th 2007, 02:25 PM
In order to hold fast to his covenant according to the Torah is to Not add to or take away from the commandments written in the law, therefore if you are keeping the feasts to please God it must be according to his law,ie;

Shabbat

Not to travel on shabbat outside the limits of one's place of residence.
Exodus 16:29

Shavu'ot

To rest on shavu'ot, not to work on the shavu'ot.
Leviticus 23:21

Yom kippur

Not to work on Yom kippur
Leviticus 23:27-32.

Passover

Not to work on the first day of passover
Leviticus 23:6,7.

These are just a few of what is required in order to hold fast his covenant,
plus all the other commandmets that are contained in the Torah (613 in total).

So are you keeping the feasts according to Gods covenant, and all of His commandments? if not then you must remember that it was because of disobedience to God's commandments that caused God to say as he did concerning his feasts etc.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 11th 2007, 03:53 PM
In order to hold fast to his covenant according to the Torah is to Not add to or take away from the commandments written in the law, therefore if you are keeping the feasts to please God it must be according to his law,ie;

Shabbat

Not to travel on shabbat outside the limits of one's place of residence.
Exodus 16:29

Shavu'ot

To rest on shavu'ot, not to work on the shavu'ot.
Leviticus 23:21

Yom kippur

Not to work on Yom kippur
Leviticus 23:27-32.

Passover

Not to work on the first day of passover
Leviticus 23:6,7.

These are just a few of what is required in order to hold fast his covenant,
plus all the other commandmets that are contained in the Torah (613 in total).

So are you keeping the feasts according to Gods covenant, and all of His commandments? if not then you must remember that it was because of disobedience to God's commandments that caused God to say as he did concerning his feasts etc.Your interpretation of Shabbat is not based on the Hebrew words but on what you 'think' it means. 'His place' is the correct interpretation. Was God's intent ever that His people could not leave their front door; their residence? Is this the 'letter' of the Law that you are speaking of? The Hebrews mistook many of His commands as you have, because they refused to hear Him at Sinai. They did not desire the relationship that YHWH desired. Suffice it to say, Shabbat never meant that you had to stay at home. It was never intended to be something bad or restrictive. Do you believe the loving God you serve used to be mean to His people for your sake? I believe God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So, since God does not contradict Himself and Yeshua clearly states that Shabbat was made for man, then what was stated in Exodus 16:9 is a wonderful and good thing FOR man, not against him. It is important to see that God HAS NOT changed.

Anyway, my 'relationship' with YHWH has nothing to do with my observance. That is not the point of Shorashim (Hebrew roots). That is not the focus of Messianic believers. The point has ALWAYS been about the relationship YHWH desires to have with His people. From the garden until today there has been no change in God. No one has even implied that we observe God's righteous Law to somehow earn a place with Him. That would never be possible. We KNOW that! We are NOT attempting to do that. God's Shabbat was made for man; it is good for man! God's feasts are good for man! As Psalm 119 tells us God's Law is righteous and good and to be delighted in. There is no contradiction in God or His Word.

Do you believe God has changed? Do you believe His Word has changed?

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Jul 11th 2007, 06:09 PM
Your interpretation of Shabbat is not based on the Hebrew words but on what you 'think' it means. 'His place' is the correct interpretation. Was God's intent ever that His people could not leave their front door; their residence? Is this the 'letter' of the Law that you are speaking of? The Hebrews mistook many of His commands as you have, because they refused to hear Him at Sinai. They did not desire the relationship that YHWH desired. Suffice it to say, Shabbat never meant that you had to stay at home. It was never intended to be something bad or restrictive. Do you believe the loving God you serve used to be mean to His people for your sake? I believe God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So, since God does not contradict Himself and Yeshua clearly states that Shabbat was made for man, then what was stated in Exodus 16:9 is a wonderful and good thing FOR man, not against him. It is important to see that God HAS NOT changed.


Anyway, my 'relationship' with YHWH has nothing to do with my observance. That is not the point of Shorashim (Hebrew roots). That is not the focus of Messianic believers. The point has ALWAYS been about the relationship YHWH desires to have with His people. From the garden until today there has been no change in God. No one has even implied that we observe God's righteous Law to somehow earn a place with Him. That would never be possible. We KNOW that! We are NOT attempting to do that. God's Shabbat was made for man; it is good for man! God's feasts are good for man! As Psalm 119 tells us God's Law is righteous and good and to be delighted in. There is no contradiction in God or His Word.

Do you believe God has changed? Do you believe His Word has changed?

God Bless!


I have to tell you that I have a list of all 613 commandments in the Torah, and have not added nor taken away from that which is written, so you are not disagreeing with me.
Are you saying then that the scriptures do not mean what they say?

Six days may work be done but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 31:15.

I put it back to you, has God changed?

Studyin'2Show
Jul 12th 2007, 01:03 AM
I have to tell you that I have a list of all 613 commandments in the Torah, and have not added nor taken away from that which is written, so you are not disagreeing with me.
Are you saying then that the scriptures do not mean what they say?

Six days may work be done but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 31:15.

I put it back to you, has God changed?No, of course He has not. So, if He said that in Exodus and He (Yeshua) also said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath and there is no contradiction in Scripture....:hmm: hmmm We must conclude that God's word is completely true; all of it. So, maybe it is man's interpretation that is wrong.

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Jul 12th 2007, 07:50 AM
No, of course He has not. So, if He said that in Exodus and He (Yeshua) also said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath and there is no contradiction in Scripture....:hmm: hmmm We must conclude that God's word is completely true; all of it. So, maybe it is man's interpretation that is wrong.

God Bless!

This is the rest of the scripture which shows complete agreement with what The Messiah stated in Mark 2:27.

Exodus 31:14-16
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: everyone that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut of from among his people.

Whereforethe children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Are you willing to abide in Gods covenant, according to God's commands?

Studyin'2Show
Jul 12th 2007, 11:01 AM
This is the rest of the scripture which shows complete agreement with what The Messiah stated in Mark 2:27.

Exodus 31:14-16
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: everyone that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut of from among his people.

Whereforethe children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Are you willing to abide in Gods covenant, according to God's commands?Enough of this. I have answered your questions but you keep ignoring mine. For this to be an edifying discussion, we must RESPOND to each other. Yes, I am willing to trust God's Word and His commands. Am I the judge over someone else? No. In response to Mark 2:27, absolutely the Sabbath was made FOR us not to be AGAINST us. It is a good thing for us, not meant to burden us like some see it as burdensome. Yeshua enjoyed the Father's Sabbath, and so shall I.

Now, to the unanswered questions. If God said what He said in Exodus 31, and Yeshua said what He said in Mark 2, and we know that He and the Father are One and that He is the SAME yesterday, today, and forever; are you willing to consider that rather than God contradicting Himself, scripture contradicting itself, or God changing maybe there may be human misunderstanding that causes the confusion?

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Jul 12th 2007, 11:08 AM
Enough of this. I have answered your questions but you keep ignoring mine. For this to be an edifying discussion, we must RESPOND to each other. Yes, I am willing to trust God's Word and His commands. Am I the judge over someone else? No. In response to Mark 2:27, absolutely the Sabbath was made FOR us not to be AGAINST us. It is a good thing for us, not meant to burden us like some see it as burdensome. Yeshua enjoyed the Father's Sabbath, and so shall I.

Now, to the unanswered questions. If God said what He said in Exodus 31, and Yeshua said what He said in Mark 2, and we know that He and the Father are One and that He is the SAME yesterday, today, and forever; are you willing to consider that rather than God contradicting Himself, scripture contradicting itself, or God changing maybe there may be human misunderstanding that causes the confusion?

God Bless!

Sorry, the answer is definately yes, hence the reason for so many sometimes conflicting doctrines.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 12th 2007, 11:15 AM
Sorry, the answer is definately yes, hence the reason for so many sometimes conflicting doctrines.Thank you. So, as we consider that it has been man's understanding that has been flawed, can we agree that Yeshua did NOT come to show that He was against His own Law but to show us how He intended it to be lived out; walked in? :hmm:

Firstfruits
Jul 12th 2007, 11:43 AM
Thank you. So, as we consider that it has been man's understanding that has been flawed, can we agree that Yeshua did NOT come to show that He was against His own Law but to show us how He intended it to be lived out; walked in? :hmm:

God was definately not against the covenant made with Israel, but because they continued not in his covenant he said " I will make a new covenant not according to the one I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt."

According to Hebrew 10:9 it is written; Then said I, Lo I come to do thy will, O God. He (God) taketh away the first (Covenant) that he may establish the second.

It is written that by Christ all that believe in are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses (the first covenant). Acts 13:38-41

What we need to know therefore is what is the new covenant that we have through Christ, according to the gospel?

Studyin'2Show
Jul 12th 2007, 12:01 PM
God was definately not against the covenant made with Israel, but because they continued not in his covenant he said " I will make a new covenant not according to the one I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt."

According to Hebrew 10:9 it is written; Then said I, Lo I come to do thy will, O God. He (God) taketh away the first (Covenant) that he may establish the second.

It is written that by Christ all that believe in are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses (the first covenant). Acts 13:38-41

What we need to know therefore is what is the new covenant that we have through Christ, according to the gospel?Is see what you're doing. You believe the covenant IS the Law, right? I don't. The Law is like the rules, so to speak, whereas the covenant is the agreement to follow the rules. For example, if you make an agreement with your child that if they get all As and Bs on their report card, you will take them to their favorite place as a reward. Then they get one C. They have broken the agreement and they would not get the promised reward, BUT that wouldn't mean that getting As and Bs on a report card is now a bad thing. God's Law was never bad, but it couldn't be just written on the hard stone of a hard heart. It had to be written on the softness of a willing heart. That's what Yeshua came to show us, IMO, how God's Law could be walked out in complete submission to Him through His Holy Spirit.

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Jul 12th 2007, 12:28 PM
Is see what you're doing. You believe the covenant IS the Law, right? I don't. The Law is like the rules, so to speak, whereas the covenant is the agreement to follow the rules. For example, if you make an agreement with your child that if they get all As and Bs on their report card, you will take them to their favorite place as a reward. Then they get one C. They have broken the agreement and they would not get the promised reward, BUT that wouldn't mean that getting As and Bs on a report card is now a bad thing. God's Law was never bad, but it couldn't be just written on the hard stone of a hard heart. It had to be written on the softness of a willing heart. That's what Yeshua came to show us, IMO, how God's Law could be walked out in complete submission to Him through His Holy Spirit.

God Bless!

This is what is written with regards to the covenant.

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon tables of stone. Deuteronomy 4:13.

The covenant is broken if the commandments, as God gave them are not kept. You cannot have the covenant without the commandments. and all must be adheared to.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 12th 2007, 02:37 PM
This is what is written with regards to the covenant.

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon tables of stone. Deuteronomy 4:13.

The covenant is broken if the commandments, as God gave them are not kept. You cannot have the covenant without the commandments. and all must be adheared to.As I said, the covenant is the agreement itself, that was broken. Do you believe His commandments are bad? :hmm:

Firstfruits
Jul 12th 2007, 02:52 PM
As I said, the covenant is the agreement itself, that was broken. Do you believe His commandments are bad? :hmm:

100% no, but unless you can keep them 100% as God gave them; by not adding to them or taking away from them, that is when God is displeased.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10,11.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 12th 2007, 08:35 PM
100% no, but unless you can keep them 100% as God gave them; by not adding to them or taking away from them, that is when God is displeased.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10,11.So, what do you do, break them to keep from keeping them? Does that make sense? :hmm:

Kahtar
Jul 13th 2007, 12:00 AM
Just a point of observation: We are all guilty of the law regardless. We are all judged guilty by the law. But those of us who have accepted the gift of Christ on the cross have their guiltiness paid for already.
Is keeping the law sin? Don't think so.
Is trying to gain justification through the law sin? Not really, just a pointless venture, for justification comes only through Christ. And those who seek justification without Christ, whether it is through obeying the law or any other way, are all still unjustified.
But those who are justified in Christ, can now obey the law written on their heart, manifested through works, without worrying about trying to be justified by the law. Now we can walk a pleasing walk before God knowing that when we screw up, our sin is covered.

BHS
Jul 13th 2007, 12:13 AM
Firstfruits,

This "covenant of death" in this Isaiah passage does not refer to the "law". In a nutshell it speaks of misplaced confidence. In referring back to verse 15, Isaiah is basically saying -- "you are acting as though death and the grave will not overcome you. ... They come to others, but you are exempt. Round about you you have beheld others fall, and have even seen the ten tribes go into captivity, but you think that death will pass you by." It is about a confidence in human ability to solve all problems in their own strength.

In verse 18, Isaiah simply takes up the boast of the people and shows how they have no refuge whatever in which to find a hiding place. With the word "trample", the thought is brought that an army is coming and Judah will be trodden under foot. And yes, this prophecy was fulfilled.

God bless,
BHS

Brother Mark
Jul 13th 2007, 02:48 AM
Just a point of observation: We are all guilty of the law regardless. We are all judged guilty by the law. But those of us who have accepted the gift of Christ on the cross have their guiltiness paid for already.
Is keeping the law sin? Don't think so.
Is trying to gain justification through the law sin? Not really, just a pointless venture, for justification comes only through Christ. And those who seek justification without Christ, whether it is through obeying the law or any other way, are all still unjustified.
But those who are justified in Christ, can now obey the law written on their heart, manifested through works, without worrying about trying to be justified by the law. Now we can walk a pleasing walk before God knowing that when we screw up, our sin is covered.

I don't think anyone here is really teaching justification by law. At least not that I can tell. But just to continue this thought...

Could seeking justification by law be sin in that it is a rejection of justification in Christ?

Kahtar
Jul 13th 2007, 03:34 AM
I don't think anyone here is really teaching justification by law. At least not that I can tell. But just to continue this thought...

Would not seeking justification by law be sin in that it is a rejection of justification in Christ?:hmm: Good point. All who reject Christ remain unjustified, and thus remain in their sin. And, all who reject Christ seek to find justification in their own works.
However, there are some who believe that obedience to the law is sin. I was pointing out that obedience is not sin, but is not justification either.

Brother Mark
Jul 13th 2007, 03:48 AM
:hmm: Good point. All who reject Christ remain unjustified, and thus remain in their sin. And, all who reject Christ seek to find justification in their own works.
However, there are some who believe that obedience to the law is sin. I was pointing out that obedience is not sin, but is not justification either.

I mostly agree. (I don't think I could say that offering a sacrificial lamb is not sin. That would seem to fall into the category mentioned in Hebrews 10.) But keeping circumcision, the sabbath, the feast, etc... I don't think that is sin. I think you make a very valid point.

But, for me, the disagreement is not over a person embracing or not embracing the letter of Law. The disagreement comes when we teach that others should embrace the letter of Law. It is one thing to decide personally to keep the Law. It is another to teach that it is best and proper and of God to embrace the letter of the Law. (Of course, the reverse of that is true as well. It is one thing to say we are not under the law and another to teach that.)

talmidim
Jul 13th 2007, 03:16 PM
Shalom Bother Mark

Remember these?
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Now I am sure that this horse has been beaten to powder by now, so I don't wish to debate this point. But I for one, do not wish to teach others to ignore what the Master commands. And I do teach others not to ignore His commands, though we (the collective we) might disagree on what those commands entail. However, the verses following these quoted address that very subject.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 13th 2007, 03:18 PM
I mostly agree. (I don't think I could say that offering a sacrificial lamb is not sin. That would seem to fall into the category mentioned in Hebrews 10.) But keeping circumcision, the sabbath, the feast, etc... I don't think that is sin. I think you make a very valid point.

But, for me, the disagreement is not over a person embracing or not embracing the letter of Law. The disagreement comes when we teach that others should embrace the letter of Law. It is one thing to decide personally to keep the Law. It is another to teach that it is best and proper and of God to embrace the letter of the Law. (Of course, the reverse of that is true as well. It is one thing to say we are not under the law and another to teach that.)If you see something in scripture that blesses you, you would want to share it with others, right? I have been so blessed since I have 'embraced Torah'. So much has become more clear. I feel I have a much better understanding of who YHWH is and His unchanging character. Now, with all that said, would you expect me NOT to share this with others? That's what this is about, for me, sharing my blessings with others, not brow beating anyone over what they must do. Do I believe you would also be blessed if you chose to embrace Torah? Yes I do. Do I believe you will be condemned if you don't? No I don't. Is this teaching others to 'embracing Torah'? I believe it could be called teaching, testifying, or encouraging. Is this wrong? I don't believe so.

God Bless!

Kahtar
Jul 13th 2007, 03:47 PM
I don't think I could say that offering a sacrificial lamb is not sin. Since Christ is the fulfillment of all the laws of sacrifice, when we accept His sacrifice, we are in fact obeying those sacrificial laws. We place our sins upon our Lamb just they did the OT. The difference of couse is that He was offered ONE time for ALL.
To actually go and kill a lamb and burn the thing on an altar is no longer necessary, but we surely must accept the Lamb that was slain.

Firstfruits
Jul 13th 2007, 03:48 PM
If you see something in scripture that blesses you, you would want to share it with others, right? I have been so blessed since I have 'embraced Torah'. So much has become more clear. I feel I have a much better understanding of who YHWH is and His unchanging character. Now, with all that said, would you expect me NOT to share this with others? That's what this is about, for me, sharing my blessings with others, not brow beating anyone over what they must do. Do I believe you would also be blessed if you chose to embrace Torah? Yes I do. Do I believe you will be condemned if you don't? No I don't. Is this teaching others to 'embracing Torah'? I believe it could be called teaching, testifying, or encouraging. Is this wrong? I don't believe so.

God Bless!

I have no doubt that you would be blessed the Torah, as we can all be blessed by all that is written in the law, however it is written; For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law are a law unto themselves; which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their consience also bearing wittnes, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. Romans 2:14,15.

We know that before Christ came, we were aliens from the common wealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Ephesians 2:12

I love God's holy word wether it be old or new testament, but I also know that not everything applies, and we must know according to the Gospel of Christ what applies through Christ, and that which is pleasing to God.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 13th 2007, 05:08 PM
I have no doubt that you would be blessed the Torah, as we can all be blessed by all that is written in the law, however it is written; For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law are a law unto themselves; which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their consience also bearing wittnes, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. Romans 2:14,15.

We know that before Christ came, we were aliens from the common wealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Ephesians 2:12

I love God's holy word wether it be old or new testament, but I also know that not everything applies, and we must know according to the Gospel of Christ what applies through Christ, and that which is pleasing to God.What I'd like to point out is that when you read the entire chapter 2 of Romans, Paul is not telling Gentile to be law breakers. In fact, look at what he says here in the same chapter:

Romans 2:25-26
25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?

If someone who is circumcised does not keep the Law, they have become as uncircumcised. If someone who is uncircumcised, keeps the Law it will be counted as circumcision. It does not say that those who are not of the circumcision can not keep the Law. It's important to know that the phrase 'the circumcision' refers to those who were born Jews or have gone through the ritual to become Jews. Either way, it doesn't even imply that there would ever be something wrong with keeping the Law.

Also, I must point out the verb tense Paul uses in the Ephesians verse you quote. He says we 'were' aliens and strangers. But praise God, we have been grafted in and are no longer strangers or aliens but have been completely adopted as sons.

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Jul 13th 2007, 06:18 PM
What I'd like to point out is that when you read the entire chapter 2 of Romans, Paul is not telling Gentile to be law breakers. In fact, look at what he says here in the same chapter:

Romans 2:25-26
25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?

If someone who is circumcised does not keep the Law, they have become as uncircumcised. If someone who is uncircumcised, keeps the Law it will be counted as circumcision. It does not say that those who are not of the circumcision can not keep the Law. It's important to know that the phrase 'the circumcision' refers to those who were born Jews or have gone through the ritual to become Jews. Either way, it doesn't even imply that there would ever be something wrong with keeping the Law.

Also, I must point out the verb tense Paul uses in the Ephesians verse you quote. He says we 'were' aliens and strangers. But praise God, we have been grafted in and are no longer strangers or aliens but have been completely adopted as sons.

God Bless!

Paul also said:

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes the Gentiles also. Romans 3:19,20,28,29.

Are you under the law?

Studyin'2Show
Jul 13th 2007, 07:09 PM
Paul also said:

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes the Gentiles also. Romans 3:19,20,28,29.

Are you under the law?I don't know how many times I will need to answer the same question but I guess that's one of the assumptions people make concerning those who embrace God's Law. No, I am NOT UNDER the Law. The Law for me is not written on hard stone but rather on my soft, willing, and fully submitted heart.

This is not about being a Jew or a Gentile. The dividing line between the two has been removed. This is NOT about seeking justification. No one can be justified by the Law.

God Bless!

Brother Mark
Jul 17th 2007, 12:15 AM
Since Christ is the fulfillment of all the laws of sacrifice, when we accept His sacrifice, we are in fact obeying those sacrificial laws. We place our sins upon our Lamb just they did the OT. The difference of couse is that He was offered ONE time for ALL.
To actually go and kill a lamb and burn the thing on an altar is no longer necessary, but we surely must accept the Lamb that was slain.

Agreed! Both the letter and the spirit of the law were fulfilled in Jesus. But if someone wanted to continue to offer a lamb for a sacrifice, would that be offensive to the Father and the Lamb? I think that is what Hebrews 10 is about.

For me, I see a difference in keeping the letter of the OT law which requires a lamb to be sacrificed and the spirit of the OT law which says the Lamb was offered once and for all. In other words, we obey in newness of spirit not in oldness of letter. But the teacher still teaches, hence the law is still valid. But it is the spirit of the law or fulfillment that matters.

Brother Mark
Jul 17th 2007, 12:22 AM
If you see something in scripture that blesses you, you would want to share it with others, right? I have been so blessed since I have 'embraced Torah'. So much has become more clear. I feel I have a much better understanding of who YHWH is and His unchanging character. Now, with all that said, would you expect me NOT to share this with others? That's what this is about, for me, sharing my blessings with others, not brow beating anyone over what they must do. Do I believe you would also be blessed if you chose to embrace Torah? Yes I do. Do I believe you will be condemned if you don't? No I don't. Is this teaching others to 'embracing Torah'? I believe it could be called teaching, testifying, or encouraging. Is this wrong? I don't believe so.

God Bless!

I understand what you are saying. But you walk a fine line. None of Father's children are condemned. But we do sin. Hence, the word condemned does not mean sin. Do you believe one is in sin if they don't "embrace" the Torah... That was a question we have discussed before. And there in is my singular issue on this topic. It is one thing to embrace the law. I love the OT law and have learned MUCH about God from it and Jesus. I love to read it and often spend more time there than in the NT. So, I understand what you are saying about how we can be blessed by it. It is a totally different thing to teach others to live by the letter of the law.

But as I said before, my problem is with the teaching that breaking the letter of the Law is sinful and encouraging others in the same way of thinking. Remove the "it is sinful to break the letter of the law" from the teaching, and we can be in some agreement. Otherwise, I don't see much hope of compromise on this issue.

Blessings,

Mark

Studyin'2Show
Jul 17th 2007, 01:10 AM
I'm not walking a line, really. Being disobedient is sin. Teaching others to be disobedient is sin. What that means to you is evidently different than what it means to me, but guess what? God knows the heart and what motivates it.

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2007, 08:45 AM
What was the difference between Jew and Gentile, that Jesus took away to make us one in his body?

Ephesians 2:14,15.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 18th 2007, 10:50 AM
What was the difference between Jew and Gentile, that Jesus took away to make us one in his body?

Ephesians 2:14,15.I was going to start a new thread with this post because it feels like we're heading off on a tangent, but decided to keep it here instead. You may want to start a new thread if you want to delve deeper.

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, in Messiah. We should all have His Law (which has not changed) written on our soft willing hearts and not on hard stones. This not about being bound to what was written on the stones at Sinai; it is about recognizing what Law has been written on our hearts at Calvary. God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Yeshua is God who has not changed. Yeshua's Law is God's Law CLARIFIED!

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2007, 12:03 PM
I was going to start a new thread with this post because it feels like we're heading off on a tangent, but decided to keep it here instead. You may want to start a new thread if you want to delve deeper.

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, in Messiah. We should all have His Law (which has not changed) written on our soft willing hearts and not on hard stones. This not about being bound to what was written on the stones at Sinai; it is about recognizing what Law has been written on our hearts at Calvary. God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Yeshua is God who has not changed. Yeshua's Law is God's Law CLARIFIED!

God Bless!

I know that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, in Messiah, but my question is, what was the difference, and what did Jesus take away to make us one?

Brother Mark
Jul 18th 2007, 12:25 PM
I'm not walking a line, really. Being disobedient is sin. Teaching others to be disobedient is sin. What that means to you is evidently different than what it means to me, but guess what? God knows the heart and what motivates it.

God Bless!

I agree with you on disobedience and that we see it differently.

For me, being circumcised in the heart is fulfilling God's spiritual command fully and completely. Being circumcised in the foreskin is nothing. And I think this is the case with God as well. The OT circumcision was simply a foreshadow of what God intended to do when He put Jesus inside of my heart. In other words, like always, it pointed to Christ!

talmidim
Jul 19th 2007, 01:28 PM
I agree with you on disobedience and that we see it differently.

For me, being circumcised in the heart is fulfilling God's spiritual command fully and completely. Being circumcised in the foreskin is nothing. And I think this is the case with God as well. The OT circumcision was simply a foreshadow of what God intended to do when He put Jesus inside of my heart. In other words, like always, it pointed to Christ!My Dear Brother Mark,

Shalom and Greeting in His Name. Forgive me this intrusion into your discussion with S2S on this topic, but I have something to share concerning the circumcision. For I believe that it is more than a simple foreshadowing of Adonai's intentions, but rather a fulfillment of another step in the promise of redemption.

Isn't it interesting that there are seven major covenants made that directly coincide with the days of creation and many other "sevens" in scripture. The third day is when the plants that bore seed and fruit were brought forth. The third recipient of His covenant was Abraham and it was a covenant of fruitfulness. The "mark" of that covenant was the circumcision of the flesh. And it is no coincidence that the seed of Abraham was to pass through that circumcision mark, thereby sanctifying it to Elohim’s purpose, before it could become fruitful toward the redemption of His creation. It is Abraham's seed that became Messiah the Redeemer as a direct result of Adonai's promise of redemption and the mark of His covenant with Abraham. That is why it was written that Isaac was called the child of promise, not Ishmael.

The third Feast unto Adonai is Yom HaBikkurim (the day of Firstfruits).
The third furnishing of the Tabernacle is the Table of Shewbread.
The third seal that is broken has to do with a lack of fruitfulness (a condition of want).

The Days of Creation gives order to the progression of the covenants. They also yields up the themes that define the nature of each stage of His promise of redemption.

The recipients of the covenants, the type of each covenant, the seal and mark all give confirmations to His promise of redemption.

The Sacred Feasts are a prophetic picture of the things that HE DOES FOR US, in order that we might be redeemed.

The Furnishings of the Tabernacle are a picture of the things that WE MUST DO FOR OURSELVES in order to draw close to Him and be redeemed.

So you see, the circumcision was and is more than a simple foreshadowing. It is an actual step in the process of redemption and a confirmation of the prophetic promise of the Lamb that was slain from the foundations of the world. And the reason that it is no longer required in the flesh (as you have rightly reckoned) is that the Redeemer has already come in the flesh. But it is just as much a confirmation of why His circumcision is required in our hearts. It is good to know the context of His promises that we might be better equipped to count our blessings. It is good to know the context of His Torah that we might be better equipped to obey His Commandments. For these things go hand in hand...


Be Blessed

Firstfruits
Jul 20th 2007, 03:55 PM
My Dear Brother Mark,

Shalom and Greeting in His Name. Forgive me this intrusion into your discussion with S2S on this topic, but I have something to share concerning the circumcision. For I believe that it is more than a simple foreshadowing of Adonai's intentions, but rather a fulfillment of another step in the promise of redemption.

Isn't it interesting that there are seven major covenants made that directly coincide with the days of creation and many other "sevens" in scripture. The third day is when the plants that bore seed and fruit were brought forth. The third recipient of His covenant was Abraham and it was a covenant of fruitfulness. The "mark" of that covenant was the circumcision of the flesh. And it is no coincidence that the seed of Abraham was to pass through that circumcision mark, thereby sanctifying it to Elohim’s purpose, before it could become fruitful toward the redemption of His creation. It is Abraham's seed that became Messiah the Redeemer as a direct result of Adonai's promise of redemption and the mark of His covenant with Abraham. That is why it was written that Isaac was called the child of promise, not Ishmael.

The third Feast unto Adonai is Yom HaBikkurim (the day of Firstfruits).
The third furnishing of the Tabernacle is the Table of Shewbread.
The third seal that is broken has to do with a lack of fruitfulness (a condition of want).

The Days of Creation gives order to the progression of the covenants. They also yields up the themes that define the nature of each stage of His promise of redemption.

The recipients of the covenants, the type of each covenant, the seal and mark all give confirmations to His promise of redemption.

The Sacred Feasts are a prophetic picture of the things that HE DOES FOR US, in order that we might be redeemed.

The Furnishings of the Tabernacle are a picture of the things that WE MUST DO FOR OURSELVES in order to draw close to Him and be redeemed.

So you see, the circumcision was and is more than a simple foreshadowing. It is an actual step in the process of redemption and a confirmation of the prophetic promise of the Lamb that was slain from the foundations of the world. And the reason that it is no longer required in the flesh (as you have rightly reckoned) is that the Redeemer has already come in the flesh. But it is just as much a confirmation of why His circumcision is required in our hearts. It is good to know the context of His promises that we might be better equipped to count our blessings. It is good to know the context of His Torah that we might be better equipped to obey His Commandments. For these things go hand in hand...


Be Blessed



What about the non Jew on which obedience to that contained in the Torah is not binding, but they believe in the Messiah whom God has sent as a light to the Gentiles, and have confessed and had their sins forgiven, and walk after the Spirit in the love of God? And are assured by this that if they continue to abide in The Messiah they shall have eternal life in heaven?

talmidim
Jul 21st 2007, 12:42 AM
What about the non Jew on which obedience to that contained in the Torah is not binding, but they believe in the Messiah whom God has sent as a light to the Gentiles, and have confessed and had their sins forgiven, and walk after the Spirit in the love of God? And are assured by this that if they continue to abide in The Messiah they shall have eternal life in heaven?Who ever said that they are not binding? Are the Ten Commandments suddenly annulled? Where is it you are drawing this imaginary line of yours anyway?

Firstfruits
Jul 21st 2007, 10:56 AM
Who ever said that they are not binding? Are the Ten Commandments suddenly annulled? Where is it you are drawing this imaginary line of yours anyway?


The answer to your question according to the Torah is that a person that is a non Jew need only abide in the Noahic covenant, and that the torah is only binding on those that are Jews.
Remember that it is written that Non Jews were never given the law/never had the law.
Gentiles are made right with God by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting him as their personal saviour, and by him we have the promise of eternal life, and as it is written, it is expected that Jews also will be saved " even as they" have a look at the site in S2S previous post.

talmidim
Jul 21st 2007, 01:00 PM
The answer to your question according to the Torah is that a person that is a non Jew need only abide in the Noahic covenant, and that the torah is only binding on those that are Jews.
Remember that it is written that Non Jews were never given the law/never had the law.
Gentiles are made right with God by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting him as their personal saviour, and by him we have the promise of eternal life, and as it is written, it is expected that Jews also will be saved " even as they" have a look at the site in S2S previous post.These are good points you bring up and they deserve answers. But I will answer after you answer me about the Ten Commandments, OK?

Studyin'2Show
Jul 21st 2007, 02:45 PM
Gentiles are made right with God by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting him as their personal saviour, and by him we have the promise of eternal life, and as it is written, it is expected that Jews also will be saved " even as they" have a look at the site in S2S previous post.Are you referring to this post from another thread? http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1326716&postcount=11 Ironically, I posted this to show how unbiblical some Judaic thinking has become and this proves that point very well. The whole idea of Noahic law vs. Mosaic law is absolutely unbiblical. God is NOT a respecter of persons. Is He not the God of the Jews and the Gentiles also? (Romans 3:29) God has ALWAYS intended to gather the nations to Him and for ALL of His people to honor His Sabbath and other commands. Somehow in much (non-Messianic) Judaic thinking, this point is missed entirely.

Isaiah 56:6-8
6 “ Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord GOD, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“ Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

There are not two different ways to be saved; one for the Jew and one for the Gentiles. There is only one way! Yeshua!

God Bless!

talmidim
Jul 21st 2007, 06:36 PM
Are you referring to this post from another thread? http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1326716&postcount=11 Ironically, I posted this to show how unbiblical some Judaic thinking has become and this proves that point very well. The whole idea of Noahic law vs. Mosaic law is absolutely unbiblical. God is NOT a respecter of persons. Is He not the God of the Jews and the Gentiles also? (Romans 3:29) God has ALWAYS intended to gather the nation to Him and for ALL of His people to honor His Sabbath and other commands. Somehow in much (non-Messianic) Judaic thinking, this point is missed entirely.

Isaiah 56:6-8
6 “ Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord GOD, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“ Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

There are not two different ways to be saved; one for the Jew and one for the Gentiles. There is only one way! Yeshua!

God Bless!Shabbat Shalom S2S,

Well you beat me to it and good for you too! You said it better than I would have. But I am still waiting to hear Firstfruits say whether or not the Ten Commandments have been annulled. Seems to be a little tight-lipped on that point.

I do so love His Word.

Firstfruits
Jul 22nd 2007, 10:07 AM
Are you referring to this post from another thread? http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1326716&postcount=11 Ironically, I posted this to show how unbiblical some Judaic thinking has become and this proves that point very well. The whole idea of Noahic law vs. Mosaic law is absolutely unbiblical. God is NOT a respecter of persons. Is He not the God of the Jews and the Gentiles also? (Romans 3:29) God has ALWAYS intended to gather the nations to Him and for ALL of His people to honor His Sabbath and other commands. Somehow in much (non-Messianic) Judaic thinking, this point is missed entirely.

Isaiah 56:6-8
6 “ Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord GOD, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“ Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

There are not two different ways to be saved; one for the Jew and one for the Gentiles. There is only one way! Yeshua!

God Bless!

Yes I am refering to the post in the other thread.

Firstfruits
Jul 22nd 2007, 10:51 AM
These are good points you bring up and they deserve answers. But I will answer after you answer me about the Ten Commandments, OK?


I am sure we all agree that, that which is written and engaven in stones is the ten commandments, as it is written:
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Deut. 4:13.

These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the thick cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone.
Deut.5:22

And the Lord said unto Moses, come up to me into the mount, and there I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them. Exodus 24:12

Now if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished.
2 Corinthians 3:7,11,13.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Hebrew 8:13.

Then said he , Lo I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first that he may establish the second. Hebrew 10:9.

He that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace. Hebrew 10:28,29.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold all thing are become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17.

I hope these will be helpful to you.

ProjectPeter
Jul 22nd 2007, 01:45 PM
I think that folks take this analogy of the Old and New Covenant way too far and totally miss the point that Paul makes here. It ain't about following the Law or not following the Law. It is about grace and mercy (Spirit) as opposed to judgment or death (letter).

Perfect example... Jesus and the woman caught in adultery. There was only one thing to do according to the letter of the Law and that was to stone the woman to death. Yet Christ offered grace and mercy instead... with the abmonition ... Your sins have been forgiven... go, sin no more.

Those tablets came with great glory yes... but how much more glory this ministry of the Spirit?

ProjectPeter
Jul 22nd 2007, 01:47 PM
Let me add... The Ten Commandments are to still be adhered to. Folks who say otherwise are truly not understanding the teaching of either Christ or the Epistle's. THose were God's Laws and they were penned by His very hand. They are still a ministry of death to the unrighteous and they'll be judged by those very laws. It has not been done away with and won't be until it is all over but the shouting and all things, even death, have been put under the feet of Christ.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 22nd 2007, 02:04 PM
Perfect example... Jesus and the woman caught in adultery. There was only one thing to do according to the letter of the Law and that was to stone the woman to death. Yet Christ offered grace and mercy instead... with the abmonition ... Your sins have been forgiven... go, sin no more.

Those tablets came with great glory yes... but how much more glory this ministry of the Spirit?What is also interesting to see when studied out is that Yeshua carried out the Law completely in this case. Legally only the witnesses could begin the stoning and also there would have needed to be a man and a woman to have been 'caught in the very act' as the text states. Here He shows us mercy and grace, as well as, obedience to His Law.

Let me add... The Ten Commandments are to still be adhered to. Folks who say otherwise are truly not understanding the teaching of either Christ or the Epistle's. THose were God's Laws and they were penned by His very hand. They are still a ministry of death to the unrighteous and they'll be judged by those very laws. It has not been done away with and won't be until it is all over but the shouting and all things, even death, have been put under the feet of Christ.Extremely well put! ;)

God Bless!

ProjectPeter
Jul 22nd 2007, 02:35 PM
What is also interesting to see when studied out is that Yeshua carried out the Law completely in this case. Legally only the witnesses could begin the stoning and also there would have needed to be a man and a woman to have been 'caught in the very act' as the text states. Here He shows us mercy and grace, as well as, obedience to His Law.

No... Jesus didn't say "who is your witness, bring them forth to begin the stoning and then we can all join in. That would have been upholding it completely because if she was caught... she's caught and guilty and there is only one thing to be done according to the law... she was to be stoned to death. That is all that the allow allowed for. Instead... Jesus showed mercy and forgiveness.

I mean honestly... where does the Law of Moses offer room for forgiveness?

Studyin'2Show
Jul 22nd 2007, 11:21 PM
No... Jesus didn't say "who is your witness, bring them forth to begin the stoning and then we can all join in. That would have been upholding it completely because if she was caught... she's caught and guilty and there is only one thing to be done according to the law... she was to be stoned to death. That is all that the allow allowed for. Instead... Jesus showed mercy and forgiveness.

I mean honestly... where does the Law of Moses offer room for forgiveness?Actually, He didn't say anything. He stooped over and began writing on the ground. No one can just willy-nilly disregard certain aspects of the Law for their own benefit and expect that a holy, just God will approve of that. Maybe He wrote what the Law ACTUALLY says, which isn't bring only the woman and ask a particular rabbi what to do. :rolleyes: I really do not mean to seem coy. That is not my intention. I believe that the reason the Jews interpreted God's Law as if He was some mean, far off, task master is because they didn't take the time to hear His voice and know Him personally, as has always been His intention for us. What is surprising is that those of us who DO know Him, through Messiah, would think that He would have ever given a pile of unmerciful laws to His people. Does that even sound like the Jesus you know? I know it doesn't sound like the Messiah I serve. And since I KNOW that He is the same God from Sinai, it makes much more sense that people (with our limited understanding), completely misunderstand His commands.

So, back to the Law, let's analyze. A person can not just follow one thing in the Law and disregard another. His Word is very clear about how things can be done and Yeshua followed to a 'T'.

Deuteronomy 17:6-7
6 Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness. 7 The hands of the witnesses shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So you shall put away the evil from among you.

Deuteronomy 22:22 - If a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die—the man that lay with the woman, and the woman; so you shall put away the evil from Israel.

The knowledge that Yeshua is God and God is Yeshua should clear a lot of things up! ;)

God Bless!

diffangle
Jul 22nd 2007, 11:40 PM
Deuteronomy 22:22 - If a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die—the man that lay with the woman, and the woman; so you shall put away the evil from Israel.



Considering that there was no man brought forth with the woman makes you wonder if it was hearsay that they were going off of and/or a trap to see if Yahushua would approve of the unjust stoning. :hmm:

ProjectPeter
Jul 22nd 2007, 11:42 PM
Actually, He didn't say anything. He stooped over and began writing on the ground. No one can just willy-nilly disregard certain aspects of the Law for their own benefit and expect that a holy, just God will approve of that. Maybe He wrote what the Law ACTUALLY says, which isn't bring only the woman and ask a particular rabbi what to do. :rolleyes: I really do not mean to seem coy. That is not my intention. I believe that the reason the Jews interpreted God's Law as if He was some mean, far off, task master is because they didn't take the time to hear His voice and know Him personally, as has always been His intention for us. What is surprising is that those of us who DO know Him, through Messiah, would think that He would have ever given a pile of unmerciful laws to His people. Does that even sound like the Jesus you know? I know it doesn't sound like the Messiah I serve. And since I KNOW that He is the same God from Sinai, it makes much more sense that people (with our limited understanding), completely misunderstand His commands.

So, back to the Law, let's analyze. A person can not just follow one thing in the Law and disregard another. His Word is very clear about how things can be done and Yeshua followed to a 'T'.

Deuteronomy 17:6-7
6 Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness. 7 The hands of the witnesses shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So you shall put away the evil from among you.

Deuteronomy 22:22 - If a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die—the man that lay with the woman, and the woman; so you shall put away the evil from Israel.

The knowledge that Yeshua is God and God is Yeshua should clear a lot of things up! ;)

God Bless!Okay... in there you see... "or you can forgive them and not judge them thus condemning them to death... where? There is no room for any misunderstanding in the Law... it was to minister death to this woman. Again that is what Paul means when he speaks of it that way. Christ ministered life... forgiveness... grace.

2 Corinthians 3:4 And such confidence we have through Christ toward God.
5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8 how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.


Ministry of death.... to put him to death/both of them shall die

Ministry of the Spirit... I don't condemn you... go, sin no more.

ProjectPeter
Jul 22nd 2007, 11:44 PM
Considering that there was no man brought forth with the woman makes you wonder if it was hearsay that they were going off of and/or a trap to see if Yahushua would approve of the unjust stoning. :hmm:
Don't know... doesn't say. Lots of folk have speculated a lot of things with this passage so I try not to go outside of what it actually says.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 23rd 2007, 12:50 AM
Okay... in there you see... "or you can forgive them and not judge them thus condemning them to death... where? There is no room for any misunderstanding in the Law... it was to minister death to this woman. Again that is what Paul means when he speaks of it that way. Christ ministered life... forgiveness... grace.

2 Corinthians 3:4 And such confidence we have through Christ toward God.
5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8 how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.


Ministry of death.... to put him to death/both of them shall die

Ministry of the Spirit... I don't condemn you... go, sin no more.ProjectPeter, you are completely missing my point. Let's say He had decided to stone her, He would NOT have been able to lawfully do so without having the man but even if you say something like, "Oh, the man ran and they couldn't catch him so all we got was her." Ok, the rabbi or priest or judge can not be the one that starts the stoning. ACCORDING to the Law, Yeshua could not have legally condemned her. That IS the law in the case of stoning as I posted from Deuteronomy 17. God will not be mocked. The scripture clearly says that they were attempting to trick Him.

John 8:6 - This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.

Yeshua is God and He would not be mocked; He would be tested in this way. Their actions didn't even deserve His voice, and although He stooped to the ground to write, He still did not stoop to their level.

God Bless!

diffangle
Jul 23rd 2007, 12:52 AM
Don't know... doesn't say. Lots of folk have speculated a lot of things with this passage so I try not to go outside of what it actually says.
It does say that it was a woman only, so they already right there were not upholding the Law since there has to be a man there also in order for the accusser's to catch them in the act.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2007, 03:37 AM
ProjectPeter, you are completely missing my point. Let's say He had decided to stone her, He would NOT have been able to lawfully do so without having the man but even if you say something like, "Oh, the man ran and they couldn't catch him so all we got was her." Ok, the rabbi or priest or judge can not be the one that starts the stoning. ACCORDING to the Law, Yeshua could not have legally condemned her. That IS the law in the case of stoning as I posted from Deuteronomy 17. God will not be mocked. The scripture clearly says that they were attempting to trick Him.

John 8:6 - This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.

Yeshua is God and He would not be mocked; He would be tested in this way. Their actions didn't even deserve His voice, and although He stooped to the ground to write, He still did not stoop to their level.

God Bless!
I am not missing the point at all. My point is that the Law only allowed for one thing in regard to her adultery. That was death. Sure it required the guy too. It required his death. Sure you can go with all of the technical stuff with who throws the first stone etc. But the point is... the Law of Moses commanded them to stone her to death. You are hanging on the technicality of the Law and ignoring the clear and simple message of the Law of Moses. She was to be put to death.

Jesus didn't contend with them about their misunderstanding of the Law of Moses. They didn't misunderstand the letter... she was to die. He introduced them to the grace. None were without sin... not even them.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2007, 03:44 AM
It does say that it was a woman only, so they already right there were not upholding the Law since there has to be a man there also in order for the accusser's to catch them in the act.
What if they already stone him and hadn't gotten to her yet? ;) You are assuming stuff here based on very little written. In doing all of this the point is getting lost... the Law of Moses called for her death. His too... but hers as well. You guys are hanging on the "letter" and missing the point. :lol:

Been fun today but way passed my bedtime!!! Later You'uns!

diffangle
Jul 23rd 2007, 04:14 AM
I am not missing the point at all. My point is that the Law only allowed for one thing in regard to her adultery. That was death. Sure it required the guy too. It required his death. Sure you can go with all of the technical stuff with who throws the first stone etc. But the point is... the Law of Moses commanded them to stone her to death. You are hanging on the technicality of the Law and ignoring the clear and simple message of the Law of Moses. She was to be put to death.

Jesus didn't contend with them about their misunderstanding of the Law of Moses. They didn't misunderstand the letter... she was to die. He introduced them to the grace. None were without sin... not even them.
The verse that S2S pointed out shows that it was a test...

John 8:6 - This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.

If He hadn't call their bluff, then they would have jumped at the chance to accuse Him and sentence Him to death... they were dying to catch Him in Law-breaking so they could sentence Him to death... they finally had to bear false witness(yet another Command of YHWH they transgressed:rolleyes:) against Him in order to put Him to death...

Mat 26:59 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=26&v=59&version=KJV#59)Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put Him to death;

Shalom and sweet dreams :)

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2007, 04:31 AM
The verse that S2S pointed out shows that it was a test...

John 8:6 - This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.

If He hadn't call their bluff, then they would have jumped at the chance to accuse Him and sentence Him to death... they were dying to catch Him in Law-breaking so they could sentence Him to death... they finally had to bear false witness(yet another Command of YHWH they transgressed:rolleyes:) against Him in order to put Him to death...

Mat 26:59 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=26&v=59&version=KJV#59)Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put Him to death;

Shalom and sweet dreams :)
I understand it was a test (admin business keeps me here a bit longer!!). But that still doesn't take away from the fact that the Law of Moses called for her death... right?

Studyin'2Show
Jul 23rd 2007, 11:39 AM
I am not missing the point at all. My point is that the Law only allowed for one thing in regard to her adultery. That was death. Sure it required the guy too. It required his death. Sure you can go with all of the technical stuff with who throws the first stone etc. But the point is... the Law of Moses commanded them to stone her to death. You are hanging on the technicality of the Law and ignoring the clear and simple message of the Law of Moses. She was to be put to death.

Jesus didn't contend with them about their misunderstanding of the Law of Moses. They didn't misunderstand the letter... she was to die. He introduced them to the grace. None were without sin... not even them.The Law still only allows for one thing in regards to adultery, DEATH! That is what the wages of sin is, DEATH! We don't dispute that issue. Everyone there, accept Yeshua of course, had sinned at some point, and were thus worthy of death if that sin were not atoned for. We agree on that issue. No doubt!

However, where we disagree is that according to the 'letter' of the Law, the circumstance that was set before Him that day called for her to be stoned. It didn't. The necessary factors were not in place. As I said, even if you rationalize that the man had somehow run and got anyway, what would have had to happen was that the two or more witnesses would have had to start the process by throwing the first stones. That did not happen. When Yeshua looked up, there were no accusers. Since none had accused her she was free to go. He sent her on her way with a stern command, "Go, and sin no more!" It's an awesome passage and yes, it does show us God's mercy and grace, but it also shows that there was some mercy and grace written into the Law through the provisions made concerning the circumstances that must be present to stone someone.

God Bless!

Brother Mark
Jul 23rd 2007, 12:51 PM
My favorite example of how Jesus handled the law at times is when he went out and gathered grain to eat on the sabbath. When challenged, he spoke of how David ate that which was unlawful but that God didn't hold him accountable for it.

Of course, what's even more interesting is what were the pharisees doing in a grain field on the sabbath??? Of course, they were looking for something to accuse Jesus with.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 23rd 2007, 02:19 PM
Num 5:12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
Num 5:13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
Num 5:14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
Num 5:15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
Num 5:16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD:
Num 5:17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
Num 5:18 And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
Num 5:19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
Num 5:20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
Num 5:21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
Num 5:22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
Num 5:24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
Num 5:25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the LORD, and offer it upon the altar:
Num 5:26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
Num 5:27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
Num 5:28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
Num 5:29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
Num 5:30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.

Did you know that this bitter water was nothing but plainj regular water that may have been dirty like it would be from any well ? This is very unlikely that it would make any woman ill.
So you see there the mercy of God, that these women were not going to be hurt.

Shalom,
Tanja

Firstfruits
Jul 23rd 2007, 03:25 PM
Why did the Disciples and the Holy Spirit not teach us to keep the Torah, except for a few specific things? Acts 15:28-29.

If we do well in what they have taught us, by keeping ourselves as they have commanded, who are we to disagree with them?

diffangle
Jul 23rd 2007, 03:31 PM
Why did the Disciples and the Holy Spirit not teach us to keep the Torah, except for a few specific things? Acts 15:28-29.

If we do well in what they have taught us, by keeping ourselves as they have commanded, who are we to disagree with them?
Were the commands of not committing murder, disobeying parents, coveting, bearing false witness, and lying mentioned in Acts 15? Should we assume that those things are now acceptable? :hmm:

Brother Mark
Jul 23rd 2007, 04:47 PM
Num 5:12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
Num 5:13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
Num 5:14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
Num 5:15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
Num 5:16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD:
Num 5:17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
Num 5:18 And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
Num 5:19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
Num 5:20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
Num 5:21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
Num 5:22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
Num 5:24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
Num 5:25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the LORD, and offer it upon the altar:
Num 5:26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
Num 5:27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
Num 5:28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
Num 5:29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
Num 5:30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.

Did you know that this bitter water was nothing but plainj regular water that may have been dirty like it would be from any well ? This is very unlikely that it would make any woman ill.
So you see there the mercy of God, that these women were not going to be hurt.

Shalom,
Tanja

Verse 27 sounds pretty ill to me. The water I wouldn't worry about. The curse I would. God pretty much said if she's guilty, then vs 27 will happen.

And of course, this is the law for dealing with suspicion and no witnesses. It's a different law than one who is "caught in the act of adultery".

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2007, 01:17 AM
The Law still only allows for one thing in regards to adultery, DEATH! That is what the wages of sin is, DEATH! We don't dispute that issue. Everyone there, accept Yeshua of course, had sinned at some point, and were thus worthy of death if that sin were not atoned for. We agree on that issue. No doubt!

However, where we disagree is that according to the 'letter' of the Law, the circumstance that was set before Him that day called for her to be stoned. It didn't. The necessary factors were not in place. As I said, even if you rationalize that the man had somehow run and got anyway, what would have had to happen was that the two or more witnesses would have had to start the process by throwing the first stones. That did not happen. When Yeshua looked up, there were no accusers. Since none had accused her she was free to go. He sent her on her way with a stern command, "Go, and sin no more!" It's an awesome passage and yes, it does show us God's mercy and grace, but it also shows that there was some mercy and grace written into the Law through the provisions made concerning the circumstances that must be present to stone someone.

God Bless!It shows that there were safeguards to keep folks from simply being unjustly stoned. ;) But that is not mercy.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 24th 2007, 02:38 AM
It shows that there were safeguards to keep folks from simply being unjustly stoned. ;) But that is not mercy.For someone unjustly accused it is. :D

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2007, 02:54 AM
No doubt of that.

Firstfruits
Jul 24th 2007, 11:28 AM
Were the commands of not committing murder, disobeying parents, coveting, bearing false witness, and lying mentioned in Acts 15? Should we assume that those things are now acceptable? :hmm:

In answer to you question:

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:8-10.

Is this commandment from Christ not enough?

Kahtar
Jul 24th 2007, 11:54 AM
In answer to you question:

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:8-10.

Is this commandment from Christ not enough?It's plenty, but now explain to us exactly HOW you do that.

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2007, 12:03 PM
It's plenty, but now explain to us exactly HOW you do that.
There ya go... using the law lawfully! :lol:

diffangle
Jul 24th 2007, 02:08 PM
In answer to you question:

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:8-10.

Is this commandment from Christ not enough?
You betcha, but then again, you asked about Acts 15 where that command isn't mentioned. Many who are oppossed to obeying YHWHs Commands from the OT and think that He changed His mind on us obeying them like to use Acts 15 to say that's all that's required of us... and you just proved my point that Acts 15 does not contain everything we're commanded to do. ;)

Btw, the whole "love your neighbor" command is OT, nuthin' new:spin:...

Lev 19:18 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Lev&c=19&v=18&version=KJV#18)Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] YHWH.

Lev 19:34 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Lev&c=19&v=34&version=KJV#34)[But] the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I [am] YHWH your God.

Rev 14:12 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Rev&c=14&v=12&version=KJV#12)Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Rev&c=22&v=14&version=KJV#14)
Blessed [are] they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Firstfruits
Jul 24th 2007, 03:26 PM
It's plenty, but now explain to us exactly HOW you do that.

If you believe that Christs commandment to love one another is enough, and you believe that those whose sins are forgiven and also live according to the Gospel of Christ by which we shall be judged, as taught by the disciples, then as a christian you must know by now what the disciples taught, and how to live, am I right?

Kahtar
Jul 24th 2007, 07:51 PM
If you believe that Christs commandment to love one another is enough, and you believe that those whose sins are forgiven and also live according to the Gospel of Christ by which we shall be judged, as taught by the disciples, then as a christian you must know by now what the disciples taught, and how to live, am I right?
Of course I do. But I was asking YOU.
Are you able to answer, don't know the answer, or don't want to answer?
I'm kinda thinking you do know the answer, and are trying to avoid it. Am I right?
I'm not trying to harass you, or make you look foolish, or anything like that. I am trying to show a point, or at least cause you to think about the point I'm making. And perhaps I have done that already.:)

Firstfruits
Jul 25th 2007, 07:52 AM
Of course I do. But I was asking YOU.
Are you able to answer, don't know the answer, or don't want to answer?
I'm kinda thinking you do know the answer, and are trying to avoid it. Am I right?
I'm not trying to harass you, or make you look foolish, or anything like that. I am trying to show a point, or at least cause you to think about the point I'm making. And perhaps I have done that already.:)

According to what we have been taught the answer is this;

Do unto others as I would have them do unto me, which to to "love one another" This according to The Son of God, is "the law and the prophets".

Studyin'2Show
Jul 25th 2007, 10:40 AM
According to what we have been taught the answer is this;

Do unto others as I would have them do unto me, which to to "love one another" This according to The Son of God, is "the law and the prophets".Don't forget to love God with everything you have and everything you are. ;) So, how does this go against God's Law? If it IS the Law and the Prophets how can it be contrary to these things? :hmm:

Kahtar
Jul 25th 2007, 12:30 PM
According to what we have been taught the answer is this;

Do unto others as I would have them do unto me, which to to "love one another" This according to The Son of God, is "the law and the prophets".Thank you for answering. :)
Now let's take it a bit further, if you will.
It says to DO unto others............
What do we DO unto others?
Or let me put it this way. Is love simply a mental exercise or emotion, or is it active? How is it displayed? How do you SHOW that love? The Word says to DO unto others. So what are the actions that flow out from that love, and prove to others that we in fact do love them?
Is it just words? You walk up to some neighbor and say 'I love you'?
I don't think words will be enough to convince him.
What are the ways that YOU display your love for your family, friends and neighbors?

Firstfruits
Jul 25th 2007, 01:28 PM
Don't forget to love God with everything you have and everything you are. ;) So, how does this go against God's Law? If it IS the Law and the Prophets how can it be contrary to these things? :hmm:

Well let us look at one or two of the Mitsvahs and see how they fit in with loving your neighbour.

That every person shall write a scroll of the Torah for himself.

To cicumcise the male offspring.

To read the shema in the morning and at night.

Not to intermarry with Gentiles.

Not to eat flesh with milk.

That the court shall pass sentence by death by decapitation with the sword.

That the court shall pass sentence of death by strangulation.

That the court shall pass sentence by death by burning with fire.

That the court shall pass sentence of death by stoning.

Not to spare the offender, in imposing the prescribed penalties on one who has caused damage.

Knowing that these cannot be changed, how do you show love to your neighbour, when you are commanded to do that which is written, unto them?

Again, if you are happy to do all that is written in the Torah knowing that as it is written; For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. then that is your choice.

Brother Mark
Jul 25th 2007, 01:30 PM
Don't forget to love God with everything you have and everything you are. ;) So, how does this go against God's Law? If it IS the Law and the Prophets how can it be contrary to these things? :hmm:

Paul summed up the whole law in love your neighbor. We show love towards God by loving people (I John, James).

Gal 5:13-15

13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, " You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care lest you be consumed by one another.
NASB

Many say that loving God and loving your neighbor are two separate things. There are things we do because we love God. Yet, in the end, loving our neighbor is a complete fulfillment of loving God. Yet, many OT laws were written about loving God. A lot of the laws were outward pointers to what Jesus was going to do later. Those laws are now fulfilled in our heart.

There is no longer any need to enter a temple built with hands for worship as the command was given. The Holy of Holies is now with us. We no longer offer sacrifices of animals but rather a living sacrifice to Him!

These things pointed to our present reality.

1 Peter 2:4-6
4 And coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected by men, but choice and precious in the sight of God, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
NASB

and

1 Peter 1:10-12
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful search and inquiry, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven — things into which angels long to look.
NASB

Many of the OT laws concerning the temple, priest, etc. are now fulfilled in the spirit in our hearts. There really is no longer any need for temple priest because that is what we are. There is no longer a need for high priest because Jesus is our high priest.

Having said that, if my motivation is to love my neighbor only, I will most likely fail in that endeavor. It is all about loving God. And when I love God, I will love my neighbor (I John). I just wanted to clarify that!

Blessings,

Mark

Kahtar
Jul 25th 2007, 01:49 PM
Well let us look at one or two of the Mitsvahs and see how they fit in with loving your neighbour.

That every person shall write a scroll of the Torah for himself.
Read the Word and meditate upon it daily..........
To cicumcise the male offspring.
Be circumcized in heart.............
To read the shema in the morning and at night.
Begin and end each day with God............
Not to intermarry with Gentiles.
Be no unequally yoked with unbelievers............
Not to eat flesh with milk.
Have and show respect for all of God's creatures...........
That the court shall pass sentence by death by decapitation with the sword.
Put to death all within yourself that is in disobedience to God...........
That the court shall pass sentence of death by strangulation.
Put to death all within yourself that is in disobedience to God...........
That the court shall pass sentence by death by burning with fire.
Put to death all within yourself that is in disobedience to God...........
That the court shall pass sentence of death by stoning.
Put to death all within yourself that is in disobedience to God...........
Not to spare the offender, in imposing the prescribed penalties on one who has caused damage.
Put to death all within yourself that is in disobedience to God...........
Knowing that these cannot be changed, how do you show love to your neighbour, when you are commanded to do that which is written, unto them?
Forgive and pray for those who trespass against you.............
Again, if you are happy to do all that is written in the Torah knowing that as it is written; For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. then that is your choice.
Since the law, the selfsame law is now written in our hearts, and we obey the law spiritually, I do my very best to obey them, and when I fail in that, I know that my sins are already paid for on the Cross, by the True Sacrifice, the very reason He gave Himself.

Brother Mark
Jul 25th 2007, 01:57 PM
Since the law, the selfsame law is now written in our hearts, and we obey the law spiritually, I do my very best to obey them, and when I fail in that, I know that my sins are already paid for on the Cross, by the True Sacrifice, the very reason He gave Himself.

Amen! And I like Isaiah 58 for how to love our neighbors. But we can also find those things in the NT as well. Forgiveness is one of the greatest ways to love our neighbors and ourselves. Feeding the poor, visiting the sick, helping the destitute, giving when nothing is deserved.

God gave me Jesus when I hated Him. I didn't deserve Jesus. I misused the gift and ignored it for a long time. Yet God gave him anyway. One way to love our neighbors is to give even when we know the gift will be abused.

Firstfruits
Jul 25th 2007, 03:22 PM
Paul summed up the whole law in love your neighbor. We show love towards God by loving people (I John, James).

Gal 5:13-15

13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, " You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care lest you be consumed by one another.
NASB

Many say that loving God and loving your neighbor are two separate things. There are things we do because we love God. Yet, in the end, loving our neighbor is a complete fulfillment of loving God. Yet, many OT laws were written about loving God. A lot of the laws were outward pointers to what Jesus was going to do later. Those laws are now fulfilled in our heart.

There is no longer any need to enter a temple built with hands for worship as the command was given. The Holy of Holies is now with us. We no longer offer sacrifices of animals but rather a living sacrifice to Him!

These things pointed to our present reality.

1 Peter 2:4-6
4 And coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected by men, but choice and precious in the sight of God, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
NASB

and

1 Peter 1:10-12
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful search and inquiry, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven — things into which angels long to look.
NASB

Many of the OT laws concerning the temple, priest, etc. are now fulfilled in the spirit in our hearts. There really is no longer any need for temple priest because that is what we are. There is no longer a need for high priest because Jesus is our high priest.

Having said that, if my motivation is to love my neighbor only, I will most likely fail in that endeavor. It is all about loving God. And when I love God, I will love my neighbor (I John). I just wanted to clarify that!

Blessings,

Mark

We are told time and time again that the law is still the same, and has not,and cannot be changed, what is it? has it changed or is it the same?

Firstfruits
Jul 25th 2007, 03:25 PM
Amen! And I like Isaiah 58 for how to love our neighbors. But we can also find those things in the NT as well. Forgiveness is one of the greatest ways to love our neighbors and ourselves. Feeding the poor, visiting the sick, helping the destitute, giving when nothing is deserved.

God gave me Jesus when I hated Him. I didn't deserve Jesus. I misused the gift and ignored it for a long time. Yet God gave him anyway. One way to love our neighbors is to give even when we know the gift will be abused.

The law cannot be changed and no matter what we feel, By God's commandment we cannot show mercy to one that has broken God's commandments, unless God's commandments/law has changed then according to the Torah this still stands.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 25th 2007, 07:59 PM
Well let us look at one or two of the Mitsvahs and see how they fit in with loving your neighbour.

That every person shall write a scroll of the Torah for himself.

To cicumcise the male offspring.

To read the shema in the morning and at night.

Not to intermarry with Gentiles.

Not to eat flesh with milk.

That the court shall pass sentence by death by decapitation with the sword.

That the court shall pass sentence of death by strangulation.

That the court shall pass sentence by death by burning with fire.

That the court shall pass sentence of death by stoning.

Not to spare the offender, in imposing the prescribed penalties on one who has caused damage.

Knowing that these cannot be changed, how do you show love to your neighbour, when you are commanded to do that which is written, unto them?

Again, if you are happy to do all that is written in the Torah knowing that as it is written; For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. then that is your choice.Please supply scripture references for all these things. There are some that I know for sure DO NOT fit into GOD's LAW! The Jewish Mitvahs are NOT necessarily God's Law, if God's didn't say them. Come on! I feel like I'm on a merry-go-round here. Going over the same things with the same people over and over and over again, just in different threads! If God didn't say it, if He didn't ordain it....it not His Law! Not eating milk with meat? Come on, it's not in scripture! Sure, it's in the writings of the rabbis and that's the problem. They have added into God's Word making the burden and calling it falsely law, and you are buying into their falsehood by assuming God said it. Death by decapitation? What!?! That sounds like the anti-Christ. So, from now on if you're going to state something as God' Law please, please, please put in a scripture reference!

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Jul 26th 2007, 07:53 AM
Please supply scripture references for all these things. There are some that I know for sure DO NOT fit into GOD's LAW! The Jewish Mitvahs are NOT necessarily God's Law, if God's didn't say them. Come on! I feel like I'm on a merry-go-round here. Going over the same things with the same people over and over and over again, just in different threads! If God didn't say it, if He didn't ordain it....it not His Law! Not eating milk with meat? Come on, it's not in scripture! Sure, it's in the writings of the rabbis and that's the problem. They have added into God's Word making the burden and calling it falsely law, and you are buying into their falsehood by assuming God said it. Death by decapitation? What!?! That sounds like the anti-Christ. So, from now on if you're going to state something as God' Law please, please, please put in a scripture reference!

God Bless!

I agree with you, that many of the Mitzvahs are not according to what is written, even if I supplied the scriptures, which are available, they would not agree with what is written in the Torah, yet the Torah is what the Jews call the law of God according to that which is written in the old testament. I undrerstand what you mean about being on "a merry go round".

When I therefore accept christs commandment to love one another, I do not have to guess what he meant because from the beginning the message has been the same; for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosever beliveth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. When I do unto others as I would have them do unto me, as Jesus said, there is no confusion.

maybe it is too simple, as paul says: But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2 Corithians 11:3.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 26th 2007, 11:20 AM
I agree with you, that many of the Mitzvahs are not according to what is written, even if I supplied the scriptures, which are available, they would not agree with what is written in the Torah, yet the Torah is what the Jews call the law of God according to that which is written in the old testament. I undrerstand what you mean about being on "a merry go round".

When I therefore accept christs commandment to love one another, I do not have to guess what he meant because from the beginning the message has been the same; for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosever beliveth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. When I do unto others as I would have them do unto me, as Jesus said, there is no confusion.

maybe it is too simple, as paul says: But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2 Corithians 11:3.You are correct that from the 'beginning' the message has been the same; from the VERY beginning - Genesis. You are correct that it IS a simple message - Love God with everything you are and trust Him completely. There is ABSOLUTELY no confusion, no double-mindedness, no double message. The same God yesterday, today, and forever; with a consistent, unchanging message - "I love you; trust Me!"

The single verse you quoted is when Paul was warning the believers in Corinth not to fall for those who preach a different Yeshua. I do not preach a different Yeshua as many do even today. The scriptures are my final authority in all things. I preach Messiah as He is from Genesis to Revelation. Some preach a smiling, happy Jesus that only forgives and does not judge (not biblical). One that, because His blood takes away sin, has no problem with those who continue to willfully walk in sin (not biblical). Some even preach a new age Jesus that loves everyone and therefore hates nothing (not biblical). Oprah believes that the message of Jesus was to love everyone, so it's ok for you to be a Buddhist or a Hindu or a witch as long as you 'love' everyone (definitely not biblical). Those are some of the perversions of Him that are being preached to the world. I will not be a party to that gnosticism. I will preach Him as He is in the Word of God. Period!

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Jul 26th 2007, 12:53 PM
Thank you for answering. :)
Now let's take it a bit further, if you will.
It says to DO unto others............
What do we DO unto others?
Or let me put it this way. Is love simply a mental exercise or emotion, or is it active? How is it displayed? How do you SHOW that love? The Word says to DO unto others. So what are the actions that flow out from that love, and prove to others that we in fact do love them?
Is it just words? You walk up to some neighbor and say 'I love you'?
I don't think words will be enough to convince him.
What are the ways that YOU display your love for your family, friends and neighbors?

I hope the following will help you understand:

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer; and ye know that no murderer hath eternal lifr abiding in him.
hereby we perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
My little children let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

For God is not unrighteous to forget you work and labor of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: Hebrew 6:10,11.

Kahtar
Jul 28th 2007, 09:27 PM
I hope the following will help you understand:;)


But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
My little children let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
For God is not unrighteous to forget you work and labor of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: Hebrew 6:10,11.
Very good. I assume that since you have posted these scriptures that they are YOUR answer, and what YOU do.
Going on that assumption,
you 'love in deed and truth'
you 'work and labor' in love
you 'minister to the saints'
Is this correct? If so, then
What are the deeds that you do?
What is the labor that you do?
How do you minister to the saints?
(I am wondering what YOU actually do to display YOUR love to others, or what you believe we all should do to display our love to others.)

Firstfruits
Aug 26th 2007, 11:01 AM
;)


Very good. I assume that since you have posted these scriptures that they are YOUR answer, and what YOU do.
Going on that assumption,
you 'love in deed and truth'
you 'work and labor' in love
you 'minister to the saints'
Is this correct? If so, then
What are the deeds that you do?
What is the labor that you do?
How do you minister to the saints?
(I am wondering what YOU actually do to display YOUR love to others, or what you believe we all should do to display our love to others.)

Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you they have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth. Matthew 6:1-4. This is what God has commanded Christ to speak, and it is him we are commanded to hearken unto.

Kahtar
Aug 26th 2007, 12:35 PM
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you they have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth. Matthew 6:1-4. This is what God has commanded Christ to speak, and it is him we are commanded to hearken unto.Interesting answer. So then, from what I get out of it, you basically don't do anything, either that or you believe telling me would be 'doing your alms before men'.
As you wish, my friend.;)

Firstfruits
Aug 27th 2007, 01:05 PM
Interesting answer. So then, from what I get out of it, you basically don't do anything, either that or you believe telling me would be 'doing your alms before men'.
As you wish, my friend.;)

Remember, that no matter what we do it cannot add to the salvation we have recieved from the Father through Christ, but it God recognises and rewards your good works.

Thanks.

Kahtar
Aug 27th 2007, 01:40 PM
Remember, that no matter what we do it cannot add to the salvation we have recieved from the Father through Christ, but it God recognises and rewards your good works.
Thanks.Precisely what I've been saying all along!:)

justsurfing
Aug 27th 2007, 02:34 PM
I believe it's "Good News". Jesus is all I need.

Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

I like my church because it is not into hierarchy... and there are lots of opportunities to do works of justice, relieve the oppressed, and "do good".

God ministers the salvation, love, character, protection and provision of God.

This creates community. It's the kingdom on earth, imo... Jesus to the world.

Works are good when they are works that are good works that serve God by touching others with God's love.

I believe God frees us to practically minister God's love through Jesus Christ in heart, word, and deed.

God bless,

js

Firstfruits
Sep 7th 2007, 07:17 PM
With regards to 2 Corinthians 3:1-18. It is written Now the Lord is that spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty (17).

Jesus Christ is that which is written in our heart.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a Quickening spirit. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:45,47.

Kahtar
Sep 7th 2007, 07:32 PM
Jesus Christ is that which is written in our heart.Absolutely correct! Jesus Christ, the Word of God, the Living Word!

Firstfruits
Sep 9th 2007, 10:59 AM
Absolutely correct! Jesus Christ, the Word of God, the Living Word!

Knowing therefore that it is Christ that is written in our hearts, and not that which is written in tables of stone.

If we are to follow Christ, according to what God the Father has commanded him to speak, and whatever our requirements regarding salvation are met through him, according to his gospel, what more do we need if we are doing that which is pleasing to God?

Studyin'2Show
Sep 9th 2007, 05:40 PM
Knowing therefore that it is Christ that is written in our hearts, and not that which is written in tables of stone.

If we are to follow Christ, according to what God the Father has commanded him to speak, and whatever our requirements regarding salvation are met through him, according to his gospel, what more do we need if we are doing that which is pleasing to God?What pleases God? Is it to be lawless?

Kahtar
Sep 9th 2007, 06:18 PM
Knowing therefore that it is Christ that is written in our hearts, and not that which is written in tables of stone.

If we are to follow Christ, according to what God the Father has commanded him to speak, and whatever our requirements regarding salvation are met through him, according to his gospel, what more do we need if we are doing that which is pleasing to God?Well, S2s kida beat me to it, nevertheless, 'what more do we need if we are doing that which is pleaseing to God' is, simply, understanding what it IS that pleases him.
Share with us what you view as being pleasing to Him.

And yes, that which was previously written in tables of stone is now written in our hearts, and yes that IS Christ, the Living Word.

ravi4u2
Sep 10th 2007, 04:57 AM
Well, S2s kida beat me to it, nevertheless, 'what more do we need if we are doing that which is pleaseing to God' is, simply, understanding what it IS that pleases him.
Share with us what you view as being pleasing to Him.

And yes, that which was previously written in tables of stone is now written in our hearts, and yes that IS Christ, the Living Word.Well, Paul says that without faith it is impossible to please God.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 10th 2007, 10:58 AM
Well, Paul says that without faith it is impossible to please God.I think we all believe this is absolutely true. I've known people that say they have faith then go out and willfully fornicate. Being a youth director in youth ministry for 8 years I've seen that one WAY too much. So, shouldn't that faith bear fruit?

James 2:14-17
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Does that mean that 'works' save us? Absolutely not. Do you believe that God wants us to be men of lawlessness? There is one that is called "the man of lawlessness". I, like you, have been saved by grace, through faith in Messiah. In the 9 years since being saved, the Holy Spirit had led me to understand that God's law AS IT WAS INTENDED is good. Why would it be a problem to value that which God has said?

God Bless!

ravi4u2
Sep 10th 2007, 11:13 PM
I think we all believe this is absolutely true. I've known people that say they have faith then go out and willfully fornicate. Being a youth director in youth ministry for 8 years I've seen that one WAY too much. So, shouldn't that faith bear fruit?

James 2:14-17
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Does that mean that 'works' save us? Absolutely not. Do you believe that God wants us to be men of lawlessness? There is one that is called "the man of lawlessness". I, like you, have been saved by grace, through faith in Messiah. In the 9 years since being saved, the Holy Spirit had led me to understand that God's law AS IT WAS INTENDED is good. Why would it be a problem to value that which God has said?

God Bless!I was merely responding to the question, "what pleases God?" The scripture is quite plain in what pleases God. The inward will always produce the outward. That is what James was trying to say.

Paul says, "Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” He also says that the "law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate".

I do not keep the law. Does that mean I am 'lawless'? On the contrary, there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus and walk after the Spirit. The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me, for I walk after the Spirit. The Spirit itself bears witness with my spirit, that I am the child of God. We know that no one who is 'lawless' can go before the throne of God and call Him Abba, Father. But, Father has made me righteous by sending forth the Spirit of his Son into my heart. Through whom I have full access to the Father and am able to cry out to Him "Abba, Father".

And answering your question "Why would it be a problem to value that which God has said?" All things has got to be valued according to the purpose it was made for.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 10th 2007, 11:36 PM
Ravi, I don't think we are so far off in the way we walk. I think it's like being left-handed or being right-handed. We will get the same thing accomplished though we may come at it from a different direction. What pleases God? Faith! What evidences faith? Works! That's why I named my podcast FaithWorks! :lol: This may surprise you but I do not 'keep' the the law for righteousness or for justification. Those things come from the blood of Messiah. I do use Torah for instruction which has always been its purpose. Nothing from Messiah would ever lead me away from YHWH or His commands.

Deuteronomy 13:4-5
4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

Yeshua would not entice us away from the way the LORD commanded. He walked in it perfectly to show us how the Father had always intended it to be walked. Not in the way that many of the religious leaders had interpreted as merciless and burdensome, but in love as Yeshua said His burden is easy and His yoke is light.

God Bless!

Kahtar
Sep 11th 2007, 12:10 AM
Well, Paul says that without faith it is impossible to please God.And I certainly did not nor would not suggest otherwise.
Is faith a mere mental exercise? Nothing more than mere belief? Some abstract concept that we must agree to? Or is it more than that? How does it play out? What does it look like?

ravi4u2
Sep 11th 2007, 01:09 AM
And I certainly did not nor would not suggest otherwise.
Is faith a mere mental exercise? Nothing more than mere belief? Some abstract concept that we must agree to? Or is it more than that? How does it play out? What does it look like?Christ is faith...

Studyin'2Show
Sep 11th 2007, 01:36 AM
Christ is faith...Although I might say it a little differently, since you've said Christ is faith, and since we are to walk by faith, and since Christ walked in God's law perfectly, and since we are in Christ......I see no conflict with walking as Christ walked. ;)

God Bless!

ravi4u2
Sep 11th 2007, 02:31 AM
Although I might say it a little differently, since you've said Christ is faith, and since we are to walk by faith, and since Christ walked in God's law perfectly, and since we are in Christ......I see no conflict with walking as Christ walked. ;)

God Bless!Or rather, we walk in Christ

Studyin'2Show
Sep 11th 2007, 02:36 AM
Or rather, we walk in ChristWho walks in God's commands perfectly! :D I don't see the big conflict that some see.

ravi4u2
Sep 11th 2007, 02:41 AM
Who walks in God's commands perfectly! :D I don't see the big conflict that some see.Can't fault you if that is your personal conviction...