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Walstib
Aug 13th 2007, 03:06 PM
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Rom 8:23KJV)

I have spoken with some people who see no difference between OT and NT saints.

I believe that NT saints are the first to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit available and only after Jesus sat on the right hand of the Father after He rose from the dead.

That even though salvation has always been grace through faith the way sin is dealt with has changed through time. That it is dealt with differently for NT saints then it was for OT saints.

Rather then making a bunch of points I will leave it there and see what kind of response there will be.

Grace and peace,

Joe

Dan Moran
Aug 13th 2007, 04:40 PM
Remember, God counted Abraham's trust in God as righteousness. Abraham was before the law. The law itself was making knowledge of the existence of sin. It amplied sin, but gave Israel a guideline to walk in the way of the Lord.

Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the law. When all was completed, seated on the right hand of the Father and the helper came to us on the day of Pentecost, God succeeded in writing his statures on the fleshy tables of the heart, where the holy spirit now resides. The old man can sin, but the new man is renewed day after day.

Those who walk in the spirit are in the spirit. Those who walk by the flesh can not please God.

Grace does NOT give us a license to sin, rather it recognizes the weakness of the flesh so through the spirit we have an advocate who is Jesus Christ the righteous. Since submitting ourselves to Christ, God does not see us as the filthy rags we once were; but now He sees us through the blood of Jesus Christ which has washed away our sins.

It would not seem right, that Jesus Christ would take our sins and nailing them to the cross with Him only to have us, who accept this as truth, as a gift of God, recrucify Him daily by not accepting that God has saved us by grace.

Not one man, not one woman can live their lives and come even remotely close to the righteousness of God. There is no one righteous, not one. It is only by the grace of God through the acceptance of the gift through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that we are entitled to salvation.

We simply can not work for it. ;)

walked
Aug 13th 2007, 06:09 PM
if there are different standards used by God to judge different aspects of His creation, then it is done by the wisdom of our God.
and nothing said by any man on these forums will will lead to any enlightening on the wisdom used by God asto His righteous judgments.

......so, keep the love of God in your heart and you will please Him without even trying, and you wont taste any of His judgment at all, ever !

RogerW
Aug 13th 2007, 06:09 PM
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Rom 8:23KJV)

I have spoken with some people who see no difference between OT and NT saints.

I believe that NT saints are the first to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit available and only after Jesus sat on the right hand of the Father after He rose from the dead.

That even though salvation has always been grace through faith the way sin is dealt with has changed through time. That it is dealt with differently for NT saints then it was for OT saints.

Rather then making a bunch of points I will leave it there and see what kind of response there will be.

Grace and peace,

Joe

Greetings Joe,

Those saints living before Christ, died in faith never having received the promised inheritance; Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. What was the promised inheritance they looked for? Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Old Testament saints were saved by grace through faith in the same way that New Testaments saints are. Through faith these OT saints never doubted that Messiah would come. They preached, and looked for the birth and atonement to come through Christ, and we preach Christ crucified, and resurrected and look for His Coming again. None of us, whether saints before Christ’s birth or after can have faith apart from the HS. How could these OT saints die in faith without the indwelling HS? These felt the power and presence of the HS Who dwelt “with” them, while saints after Pentecost know His power and presence living “in” us; Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. The indwelling Spirit (Comforter) Christ promised to send was not poured out until Pentecost. This is why Paul speaks of NT saints as having the firstfruits of the Spirit. It was not that they did not have the Holy Spirit at all before Pentecost, but they did not experience the comfort of His ever presence within.

Why, since the OT saints died in faith did they not receive the promise of a heavenly dwelling place as believers do now? Scripture tells us; “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (2Co 5:8), so why does Scripture speak of OT saints dying in faith never having received the promise? Because they lived and died prior to the first advent. How could OT saints be immediately translated to heaven before Christ has gone to prepare a place for them (Jo 14:2)? Ac 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Ac 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

After Christ was resurrected we read of graves of many of the saints being opened, and them coming out of the graves going into the holy city; Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Mt 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Notice that it states this did not happen until after His resurrection (three days later). Is this showing us the Spiritual resurrection of those OT saints who died in faith looking forward to the promise? Since after the cross, Jerusalem ceases to be the holy city, is this holy city where they went and appeared to many spiritually speaking of being spiritually resurrected to heaven, and seen by the heavenly host?

Of course regarding the redemption of our body that Paul speaks of, this happens at the same time for all who die in faith. Christ tells us that those OT saints who died in faith without having received the promise, will not be made perfect without us. It seems the perfection He speaks of here is Spiritual life, and they could not receive Spiritual life in heaven until Christ prepared the way for all His saints. Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Prior to the cross no saint ascended spiritually into heaven, and since His resurrection all who die in Christ go immediately in the spirit to heaven, and at the end of time all the saints will be bodily resurrected together to receive our new bodies, and we will all dwell with Him forever, once more in complete wholeness, body and spirit.

The interesting thing about how God has dealt with sin, is that He provided a remedy for sin from the foundation of the world. That is to say God secured salvation for His people before any sin was ever committed. For Christ is; “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Therefore from the beginning God has dealt with sin for both OT and NT saints in exactly the same way.

RW

Walstib
Aug 15th 2007, 04:26 PM
Hi Roger,

Those saints living before Christ, died in faith never having received the promised inheritance; Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. What was the promised inheritance they looked for? Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
I agree.

Old Testament saints were saved by grace through faith in the same way that New Testaments saints are. Through faith these OT saints never doubted that Messiah would come. They preached, and looked for the birth and atonement to come through Christ, and we preach Christ crucified, and resurrected and look for His Coming again. None of us, whether saints before Christ’s birth or after can have faith apart from the HS. How could these OT saints die in faith without the indwelling HS? These felt the power and presence of the HS Who dwelt “with” them, while saints after Pentecost know His power and presence living “in” us; Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. The indwelling Spirit (Comforter) Christ promised to send was not poured out until Pentecost. This is why Paul speaks of NT saints as having the firstfruits of the Spirit. It was not that they did not have the Holy Spirit at all before Pentecost, but they did not experience the comfort of His ever presence within.
I again agree with almost everything here. Yet I wonder at how many Jews understood the message of the coming Messiah let alone people outside of that community. Much was not revealed in those times.

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (1Co 2:7-10 KJV)

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. (Eph 3:4-7 KJV)

Some context of this I would like to discuss. The way this is worded it sounds to me you are saying only people who intimately knew a Messiah was to come could be saved. What about people who never heard this message yet still worshiped one God and sought to please Him. They Knew Him but not His name or the promises to come. Do they go to hell because they did not have access to this knowledge or is the grace of God bigger than what information was given to the Jews and the men discussed in the Book of the Law? Was this knowledge you speak of a requirement for salvation?

Why, since the OT saints died in faith did they not receive the promise of a heavenly dwelling place as believers do now? Scripture tells us; “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (2Co 5:8), so why does Scripture speak of OT saints dying in faith never having received the promise? Because they lived and died prior to the first advent. How could OT saints be immediately translated to heaven before Christ has gone to prepare a place for them (Jo 14:2)? Ac 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Ac 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Agreed, Abraham’s bosom, paradise, the grave…

After Christ was resurrected we read of graves of many of the saints being opened, and them coming out of the graves going into the holy city; Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Mt 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Notice that it states this did not happen until after His resurrection (three days later). Is this showing us the Spiritual resurrection of those OT saints who died in faith looking forward to the promise? Since after the cross, Jerusalem ceases to be the holy city, is this holy city where they went and appeared to many spiritually speaking of being spiritually resurrected to heaven, and seen by the heavenly host?
Agreed but this does not speak to who all from the times past was part of the firstfruits. Or who the spirits in prison were, or who all will still line up at the last judgement. Thoughts?

Of course regarding the redemption of our body that Paul speaks of, this happens at the same time for all who die in faith. Christ tells us that those OT saints who died in faith without having received the promise, will not be made perfect without us. It seems the perfection He speaks of here is Spiritual life, and they could not receive Spiritual life in heaven until Christ prepared the way for all His saints. Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Prior to the cross no saint ascended spiritually into heaven, and since His resurrection all who die in Christ go immediately in the spirit to heaven, and at the end of time all the saints will be bodily resurrected together to receive our new bodies, and we will all dwell with Him forever, once more in complete wholeness, body and spirit.
Agreed.

The interesting thing about how God has dealt with sin, is that He provided a remedy for sin from the foundation of the world. That is to say God secured salvation for His people before any sin was ever committed. For Christ is; “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Therefore from the beginning God has dealt with sin for both OT and NT saints in exactly the same way.
Well here is what the post was more about. Agree that Jesus is was and always will be the Lamb of God. The blood atones for sin will always be Jesus’ blood. This is outside of the context I am aiming for. Two question topics then.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (Rom 5:12-14 KJV)

If sin was not imputed when there was no law does that not speak to a change in the way God dealt with sin though time?

Why did the Jews sacrifice animals? Was it just a worthless shadow was there power in following Gods commands at that time in regards to how sin was found in that person and dealt with?

Grace and peace,

Joe

IBWatching
Aug 15th 2007, 06:15 PM
...Old Testament saints were saved by grace through faith in the same way that New Testaments saints are...

Just a thought I'd like to add. Saved is Saved, but OT saints were Saved because their actions were produced by faith and that faith, having been perfected by the actions (James 2:22) was then reckoned as Righteousness by God, thus giving them Justification in God's eyes.

For Church saints, we have no need to establish any righteousness to be reckoned by God. We have Jesus' Righteousness, the only one, like Paul, that we should desire to be found with when we are finally face-to-face. Many people misunderstand James because he was trying to make the point that while faith in the OT was always accompanied by works (actions), nothing has changed now that we have Jesus' Righteousness as our own. True Faith, perfected faith, regardless of how the Righteousness is reckoned, is ALWAYS accompanied by action...always. :)

Walstib
Aug 15th 2007, 06:28 PM
Just a thought I'd like to add. Saved is Saved, but OT saints were Saved because their actions were produced by faith and that faith, having been perfected by the actions (James 2:22) was then reckoned as Righteousness by God, thus giving them Justification in God's eyes.

Hi IBW,

This is exactly the kind of thing I wanted to discuss here. Your example to me speaks towards why animal sacrifices were made under the law and how one was reckoned clean.

I would be interested in your comments of how the Holy Spirit indwelling relates to this change if you have any.

Grace and peace,

Joe

SIG
Aug 15th 2007, 06:58 PM
OT saints were shadows; NT saints are the substance. Both are saved.

Ta-An
Aug 15th 2007, 07:12 PM
I'll answer you like this : :D
"The ground at the bottom of the cross is level ;)"

RogerW
Aug 15th 2007, 08:52 PM
Hi Roger,
Yet I wonder at how many Jews understood the message of the coming Messiah let alone people outside of that community. Much was not revealed in those times.

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (1Co 2:7-10 KJV)

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. (Eph 3:4-7 KJV)

Some context of this I would like to discuss. The way this is worded it sounds to me you are saying only people who intimately knew a Messiah was to come could be saved. What about people who never heard this message yet still worshiped one God and sought to please Him. They Knew Him but not His name or the promises to come. Do they go to hell because they did not have access to this knowledge or is the grace of God bigger than what information was given to the Jews and the men discussed in the Book of the Law? Was this knowledge you speak of a requirement for salvation?

Agreed but this does not speak to who all from the times past was part of the firstfruits. Or who the spirits in prison were, or who all will still line up at the last judgement. Thoughts?

Well here is what the post was more about. Agree that Jesus is was and always will be the Lamb of God. The blood atones for sin will always be Jesus’ blood. This is outside of the context I am aiming for. Two question topics then.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (Rom 5:12-14 KJV)

If sin was not imputed when there was no law does that not speak to a change in the way God dealt with sin though time?

Why did the Jews sacrifice animals? Was it just a worthless shadow was there power in following Gods commands at that time in regards to how sin was found in that person and dealt with?

Grace and peace,

Joe

Greetings Joe,

The Word of God was committed (entrusted) to the Jew.

Ro 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Ro 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Jesus, while speaking to the Jews says they search the Scriptures thinking to have eternal life, and the Scriptures testify of Him. Christ is speaking of the Old Testament Scriptures.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Christ says that all things written of Him must be fulfilled, so it is written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms concerning Him.

Lu 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Lu 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Lu 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Lu 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

In the book of Isaiah, quoted here: “Lord, who hath believed our report? Hath they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world. Did not Israel know? To Israel He saith, ‘All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.’”

Ro 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Ro 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Ro 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Ro 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Ro 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

It was not that revelation of Christ was not given in the OT times, but that many among them were not given to receive the testimony, because of their continual disobedience they stumbled and fell, and were broken. Isaiah says that the testimony was bound, and sealed except to His disciples. The LORD hid His face from the house of Jacob, and only those the LORD hath given will dwell in mount Zion.

Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Isa 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
Isa 8:17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
Isa 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Peter confirms what Isaiah had prophesied, speaking of those who stumble at the Word, being disobedient, whereunto they were appointed.

1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

The crucified Christ is the wisdom of God, and only those given to understand through faith can recognize that. The gospel is not the vain philosophy of this world, or world leaders (to them it is foolishness, and means nothing); but it is the setting forth of the eternal wisdom, grace and mercy of God, which was given us in Christ before the world began. The redemptive plan was veiled in the past, and manifested through promises, prophecies, and types, now it is fully revealed in Christ. (See Heb)

The way of salvation is not knowing of Messiah to come, but believing Messiah Who was to come, would fulfill all of His promises. As I said in the last reply they looked for the birth of Messiah to come and usher in the universal Kingdom of God. Those who were saved from the old, just like we who are saved in the new, rested through faith in His promises, knowing that what He promised would come to pass. That is why those OT saints who have died in faith, never having received the promise, but knowing He would come, looked forward to fulfillment of the promises even in death.
All manner of religions claim to know God, but these don’t know Messiah. There is no other name whereby we must be saved. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Him. So can a man who never receives of His saving grace be saved? It is not our knowledge that brings us salvation, it is believing on the One and only Savior, Who Alone is able to give unto us eternal life.

Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The firstfruits are the OT saints, the remnant saved by grace through faith. NT saints are called a innumerable multitude that no man can number. This remnant firstfruits includes all who were saved prior to Christ, beginning with Adam. The spirits in prison refers to those living in the days of Noah. Spirits in prison is reference to being spiritually bound. Though Noah was a faithful preacher of righteousness, none of those he preached to while preparing the ark were saved, so all of them who died in the flood will stand before the Judgment Throne of God on the last day to receive eternal punishment.

If you believe that ‘where there is no law, a man is not accountable’ why does death still reign? Why did people die, who did not commit an act of rebellion like Adam? Adam is a type or figure of Christ:

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

When Adam sinned transgression entered this world. By representation, sin and it results (spiritual death, physical death, sickness, and enmity against God) entered into all men. When Adam fell we all fell with him, though the similitude of his sin is not imputed to us, his nature to sin certainly is. This is why death reigns, and why all men die.

Original sin means that sinfulness marks everyone from birth in the form of a heart inclined toward sin, prior to any actual sins. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners, born in Adam with a nature enslaved to sin.

Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

But remember, God provided a remedy for sin from the foundation of the world; Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Before God had given man His law, by which sin brings guilt unto men, He provided a means of forgiveness. Just as in Adam, sin and death has passed unto all men, so too in Christ justification, and life.

When God gave the Jews His law, God said, “Obedience brings blessings, and life, but disobedience brings cursing, and death.” If the sacrificing of animals could have given them remission of sins, then there would have been no need of a Savior. Who is able to perfectly obey the law and thereby receive the eternal blessings, and eternal life found in Christ? And even if a man could keep the law perfectly, the law makes nothing perfect. What those shadows show us is that the law cannot redeem us, and therefore these shadows point us to the true sacrifice, the One sacrifice. By pointing us to the True we see our inability to redeem ourselves through our own good works; obedience to the law, and our absolute need, and utter dependence on Christ.

Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

RW

Walstib
Aug 16th 2007, 01:50 PM
OT saints were shadows; NT saints are the substance. Both are saved.

Hi Sig,

Lets please assume everyone here believes both are “saved/will be saved”, what I want to discuss is when were they considered saved or if they, or us, are even yet considered saved. Fully justified may be a better term as salvation can easily be seen as a process that is not over until the final judgment, as glorification is a part of salvation. I am trying to harmonize the things I know here for a clearer picture…

I agree how I read your words but I would ask you to please elaborate on the reasoning for posting what you did as I am unsure of your context and don't want to assume it.

See.. what I most want to discuss with everyone more has to do with the interaction of the Holy Spirit between the then and the now in believers lives. If the Holy Spirit is a seal unto salvation, and the OT saints were never sealed while still alive though they believed, what would this mean when discussing the judgement of their righteousness. If they were sealed, where is the evidence of this as I have found none.

Grace and peace,

Joe

David Taylor
Aug 16th 2007, 02:06 PM
Hi Sig,

Lets please assume everyone here believes both are “saved/will be saved”, what I want to discuss is when were they considered saved or if they, or us, are even yet considered saved. Fully justified may be a better term as salvation can easily be seen as a process that is not over until the final judgment, as glorification is a part of salvation. I am trying to harmonize the things I know here for a clearer picture…

I agree how I read your words but I would ask you to please elaborate on the reasoning for posting what you did as I am unsure of your context and don't want to assume it.

See.. what I most want to discuss with everyone more has to do with the interaction of the Holy Spirit between the then and the now in believers lives. If the Holy Spirit is a seal unto salvation, and the OT saints were never sealed while still alive though they believed, what would this mean when discussing the judgement of their righteousness. If they were sealed, where is the evidence of this as I have found none.

Grace and peace,

Joe

I believe the Holy Spirit came in power after the cross, because of the results of the cross and what Christ accomplished; and thereafter, empowered believers and taught believers and strengthened believers in a way that had never been possible before. (Because of what they witnessed in its fulness at the cross).

It was this empowerment and instruction that allowed the gospel to begin to go forth unto all Gentile nations for the first time, and be heard, and be accepted by billions.


So I wanted to say that first, so as to not minimalize what the H.S. did following calvary, and how His effect through people changed drastically.

However, the meat of the OP, from what I can see, is are OT and NT saints the same?

Similarities.
1) Human beings
2) Sinners
3) Needful of a Redeemer
4) Lost on their own merits

Differences.
1) OT looked forward in faith.
2) NT looked either straight at it, or backward in faith.
3) OT weren't empowered to take the gospel to the nations, because the power of the cross hadn't occurred yet.

I think it is impossible, however, to say that the few faithful people of the OT weren't indwelt by the H.S.

Why?

Because if they weren't, then they couldn't receive regeneration from the H.S., and all of their deeds would have been evil.

They couldn't merit anything good on their own accord, any more than we can today. Their faithfulness came from the H.S. working in them, and directing them, and leading them....no different than us.

Were the H.S. not active in Abraham's life as it is in our lives, He would have remained a wicked, evil, god-less sinner living in the pleasures of the worldly Chaldean empire.

Yet the H.S. worked in Him and through Abraham to bring him to faith, repentence, and righteousness....something Abraham could have never accomplished on his own, without the H.S's involvement and direction.

So, taking this completely away from the 'salvation issue', and just putting it at 'an everyday life issue'; I don't see how in any way, any OT saint could have done anything good, righteous, faithful, or pleasing to God...were it not for the H.S. in them leading, directing, and instructing them in the ways of righteousness.


O.T.
Psalms 32:8, 147:11 "But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment. Therefore I said, Hearken to me; I also will shew mine opinion. The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy."

Walstib
Aug 16th 2007, 02:09 PM
"The ground at the bottom of the cross is level "
Thanks ACCM,

That is to me a wise and beautiful statement.

It is one of the foundation blocks I have that all people through all time have been, and are, fully equal in essence. No person’s spirit is more righteous then the next based on their race or earthly position. God is not a respecter of persons.

Do you believe the OT saints were sealed with the Holy Spirit the same way as NT saints? If so why? If not, what does this difference mean when talking of judgement if any? That may be a better way to state what I am trying to work out and want feedback on.

Joe

RogerW
Aug 16th 2007, 02:14 PM
Hi Sig,

Lets please assume everyone here believes both are “saved/will be saved”, what I want to discuss is when were they considered saved or if they, or us, are even yet considered saved. Fully justified may be a better term as salvation can easily be seen as a process that is not over until the final judgment, as glorification is a part of salvation. I am trying to harmonize the things I know here for a clearer picture…

I agree how I read your words but I would ask you to please elaborate on the reasoning for posting what you did as I am unsure of your context and don't want to assume it.

See.. what I most want to discuss with everyone more has to do with the interaction of the Holy Spirit between the then and the now in believers lives. If the Holy Spirit is a seal unto salvation, and the OT saints were never sealed while still alive though they believed, what would this mean when discussing the judgement of their righteousness. If they were sealed, where is the evidence of this as I have found none.

Grace and peace,

Joe

Hi Joe,

I believe Scripture does show the OT saints are sealed, that they receive Spiritual life after Christ goes to the cross, and is resurrected to heaven. This sealing is found in Rev 7 with the sealing of the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel. I view this sealing as those who died in faith not yet having received the promise of Spiritual life enabling them to enter into heaven at death finally receiving the promise. They had to wait in faith until after the cross, and until the HS was poured out to dwell within man, thereby making them Spiritually alive. This sealing includes every OT saint from Adam forward, and the genealogical record of Christ confirms this.

Re 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Re 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Re 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Re 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 7 shows this prophecy given to Ezekiel being fulfilled. Remember, not long after the sealing, which came at Pentecost, Jerusalem was utterly destroyed.

Eze 9:1 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.
Eze 9:2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
Eze 9:3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
Eze 9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
Eze 9:8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
Eze 9:9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.
Eze 9:10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.
Eze 9:11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

Blessings,
RW

IBWatching
Aug 16th 2007, 07:47 PM
...I think it is impossible, however, to say that the few faithful people of the OT weren't indwelt by the H.S...

There is evidence in the NT to the contrary:

John 14:7 "even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

The disciples knew the Holy Spirit because He was certainly with them. Jesus said the Indwelling was still future. David also concurred:

Psalms 51:1 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

David knew the Spirit was with him. I don't see the word "within" here after the word from. If it was there, it would indicate an Indwelling. Then there is another interesting passage:

Luke 2:25 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.

Again, it fits the pattern of the Holy Spirit being with or upon them, but not indwelling them. Yet in the same account of Jesus' Nativity, Luke tells us that both Elizabeth (1:41) and Zacharias (1:67) were filled with the Holy Spirit. There is no evidence here that this "filling" was anymore than a temporary invasion necessary to progress God's Plan or Work, just as it is in Church saints. It also happened to Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 2:2 Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me.

The only conclusion I can make from Scripture is that it was possible for the Spirit to abide for some time (perhaps even an entire life) with an OT Believer, and even at times enter and fill them to facilitate God's Work. But the concept of an abiding, perpetual Indwelling of the Spirit is lacking Scriptural evidence, as far as the OT is concerned.

Ta-An
Aug 16th 2007, 07:58 PM
Do you believe the OT saints were sealed with the Holy Spirit the same way as NT saints? If so why? If not, what does this difference mean when talking of judgement if any? That may be a better way to state what I am trying to work out and want feedback on.

JoeYes I believe they were.... G_d equips the called...He anoints the appointed :)
There is a scripture for this,,,I just need to find it :hmm:

SIG
Aug 16th 2007, 10:20 PM
Hmmmm....hard questions. Soteriology is not for the faint of heart:)...

First--let us not forget that God is not time-bound, as we are. So our understanding of "when" things happen is faulty.

As I see it, OT saints were sealed (assured) by God's promises, which never fail. Belief was credited (future) as righteousness. I do not believe that anyone in the OT was permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit, as it was Christ's finished work that made this possible. Hebrews 11 speaks of some differences.

Christ's mission did not add to what was lacking in OT people; it provided a whole new package. OT saints were saved, but not in the process or fullness that we are blessed to know.

I never apply pre-Pentecost Scripture the way I apply post-Pentecost. I believe that no one before Pentecost was equipped to spiritually understand the way Spirit-indwelt believers can. We are truly new creations.

Grace was certainly dispensed before the cross, but the Law still reigned. All the saved certainly end up in the same Heaven, but there is a qualitative difference between looking forward to the cross, and looking back at it. No?

As I said, difficult questions...

Walstib
Aug 17th 2007, 05:45 PM
The Word of God was committed (entrusted) to the Jew.
Absolutely.

In the book of Isaiah, quoted here: “Lord, who hath believed our report? Hath they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world. Did not
Israel know? To Israel He saith, ‘All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.’”

It was not that revelation of Christ was not given in the OT times, but that many among them were not given to receive the testimony, because of their continual disobedience they stumbled and fell, and were broken. Isaiah says that the testimony was bound, and sealed except to His disciples. The LORD hid His face from the house of Jacob, and only those the LORD hath given will dwell in mountZion.

Peter confirms what Isaiah had prophesied, speaking of those who stumble at the Word, being disobedient, whereunto they were appointed.
Ahhh, shadows of Cavanistic election here. Lets just go on and leave that be for now…

The crucified Christ is the wisdom of God, and only those given to understand through faith can recognize that. The gospel is not the vain philosophy of this world, or world leaders (to them it is foolishness, and means nothing); but it is the setting forth of the eternal wisdom, grace and mercy of God, which was given us in Christ before the world began. The redemptive plan was veiled in the past, and manifested through promises, prophecies, and types, now it is fully revealed in Christ. (See Heb)
Yep.

The way of salvation is not knowing of Messiah to come, but believing Messiah Who was to come, would fulfill all of His promises. As I said in the last reply they looked for the birth of Messiah to come and usher in the universal
Kingdom of God. Those who were saved from the old, just like we who are saved in the new, rested through faith in His promises, knowing that what He promised would come to pass. That is why those OT saints who have died in faith, never having received the promise, but knowing He would come, looked forward to fulfillment of the promises even in death.
I think I am getting where you are going. You are still saying without specific a belief of/on the coming Messiah. Personal revelation of that knowledge, no one pre Pentecost could find salvation. Trying to place your context would you personally sum it up as the elected (Calvinistic election assumed with your past posts I have read) remnant (Rom 9) are the only OT people that will be in the new heaven? Don’t know as I agree with that, remember Noah was not a Jew….

All manner of religions claim to know God, but these don’t know Messiah. There is no other name whereby we must be saved. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Him. So can a man who never receives of His saving grace be saved? It is not our knowledge that brings us salvation, it is believing on the One and only Savior, Who Alone is able to give unto us eternal life.
If people are judged after this time ends (Rev20) and Jesus is the Judge and the Gate. Why can’t people go through Him then without knowing His name while alive on this earth and time? If only specific belief in Him while alive matters why the even have a end of days judgement for the dead?

The firstfruits are the OT saints, the remnant saved by grace through faith. NT saints are called a innumerable multitude that no man can number. This remnant firstfruits includes all who were saved prior to Christ, beginning with Adam. The spirits in prison refers to those living in the days of Noah. Spirits in prison is reference to being spiritually bound. Though Noah was a faithful preacher of righteousness, none of those he preached to while preparing the ark were saved, so all of them who died in the flood will stand before the Judgment Throne of God on the last day to receive eternal punishment.
See reading revelations not all those who line up at the last judgement are bound for hell. I think you are missing some context to authoritatively state things as you have here. I think my questions above cover this as much as I want to go into in this response otherwise we will be taking about too many things at once for a profitable conversation I think.

If you believe that ‘where there is no law, a man is not accountable’ why does death still reign? Why did people die, who did not commit an act of rebellion like Adam? Adam is a type or figure of Christ:
That is not what I said but what you are reading into my question. Answer the previous question specifically and we can get back on track as I think you have strayed from the context I was speaking to so the rest of what you stated towards this I will leave out of this response. Was sin looked at differently considering the words of the verse I posted, not why does death reign. If there is no law to tell you what is sinful, even though a sinful act is committed it is not put against you account is what I believe is the context.

Now if my understanding is correct and you hold a Calvanist view this next example will not be in accord with those views but I will state it anyway to show my point. My Uncle had downs syndrome, he was only able to grasp a very small part of “the law”. He did what would be considered sinful things at times but had nothing in him to grasp these transgressions. Without writing a bunch more I believe with this innocence, the innocence of a young child, these would not have been held to his account. I know this would be a controversial thing to go in depth into.

When God gave the Jews His law, God said, “Obedience brings blessings, and life, but disobedience brings cursing, and death.” If the sacrificing of animals could have given them remission of sins, then there would have been no need of a Savior. Who is able to perfectly obey the law and thereby receive the eternal blessings, and eternal life found in Christ? And even if a man could keep the law perfectly, the law makes nothing perfect. What those shadows show us is that the law cannot redeem us, and therefore these shadows point us to the true sacrifice, the One sacrifice. By pointing us to the True we see our inability to redeem ourselves through our own good works; obedience to the law, and our absolute need, and utter dependence on Christ.
They still sacrificed animals at God’s command right? If by doing so they were obedient does this not still have relevance to there testimony on judgement day? Are you sure that it was “just a shadow”? As I agree with what you have said it does not really answer my question directly. Try again if you want to.

Grace and peace,

Joe

RogerW
Aug 18th 2007, 03:52 AM
Ahhh, shadows of Cavanistic election here. Lets just go on and leave that be for now…

Do you always put labels on people whose doctrine you disagree with? Election does not originate with Calvin, it is a doctrine of Scripture. I find it ironic when people label me Calvinistic because I have never studied the works of John Calvin.



I think I am getting where you are going. You are still saying without specific a belief of/on the coming Messiah. Personal revelation of that knowledge, no one pre Pentecost could find salvation. Trying to place your context would you personally sum it up as the elected (Calvinistic election assumed with your past posts I have read) remnant (Rom 9) are the only OT people that will be in the new heaven? Don’t know as I agree with that, remember Noah was not a Jew….

Do you think the remnant, saved by grace from the OT did not believe? Did they not believe God’s prophets, sent to them to declare the coming of the Messiah? Did they doubt Isaiah when he spoke of the Lamb led to slaughter? What about the Seed to come? Why do you suppose God speaks of the nation saved as a remnant?

Noah is not a Jew? When we are in Christ there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. Since Noah was in Christ, and Christ was a Jew the argument that through the lineage of Christ, Noah can be shown to be of the same seed is a valid one.

Ro 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek (Gentiles): for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Lu 3:36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,

Salvation is of the Lord. I think of examples in Scripture such as John the Baptist, and how he was filled with the Spirit from birth, showing him saved from infancy. This tells me that the Lord will redeem whomsoever He wills. Did John the Baptist believe Christ unto salvation? How could he? Christ tells us that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (Ro 10:17). To believe means to have faith, did John the Baptist have faith while in the womb, or as a new born? How could he? Yet we are clearly told that John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from the womb.

Lu 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Scripture also tells us that without faith it is impossible to please God, and that he that comes to God must believe that He rewards them that diligently seek Him. Again, how could a tiny baby have saving faith? Did John the Baptist diligently seek God? How could he?

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
How do we reconcile all these passages of Scripture showing having faith/believing is absolutely necessary for one to be saved with the infant John the Baptist being filled with the HS showing he is saved from infancy? How did John the Baptist attain faith/belief that is evidenced through sealing of the Spirit (Eph 1:13,14)? It’s really very simple to reconcile when you understand that faith/belief unto salvation is of the Lord. It is through His imputed righteousness that any are saved, or no one could be saved. Because this is true a tiny baby, or a mentally impaired person, or any other sinner can be saved. Salvation is of the Lord! (Jonah 2:9)



If people are judged after this time ends (Rev20) and Jesus is the Judge and the Gate. Why can’t people go through Him then without knowing His name while alive on this earth and time? If only specific belief in Him while alive matters why the even have a end of days judgement for the dead?

Re 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is (the book) of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

At the last Judgment no one will go to hell. Hell is simply the grave, and both death and hell, along with all who are not written in the book which is of life will be judged and cast into the lake of fire. Those who stand before God in the great white throne judgment to receive eternal judgment are the dead. Believers are not called the dead. How could they be since when we are in Christ we can never die?

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Mt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So all the dead standing at the last judgment are judged out of the things written in the books. But we also read in vs. 12 of a book which is of life. If only the dead stand before the throne in final judgment what is this book which is unto life some are judged out of? Can any of the dead be written in the book unto life? The following verse says that those who worship the dragon and worship the beast are not written in the book of life. So vs. 15 is affirmation that only the dead are standing before God in the final Judgment, and the reason they are cast into the lake of fire is because they have never been made alive in Christ.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.



See reading revelations not all those who line up at the last judgement are bound for hell. I think you are missing some context to authoritatively state things as you have here. I think my questions above cover this as much as I want to go into in this response otherwise we will be taking about too many things at once for a profitable conversation I think.



That is not what I said but what you are reading into my question. Answer the previous question specifically and we can get back on track as I think you have strayed from the context I was speaking to so the rest of what you stated towards this I will leave out of this response. Was sin looked at differently considering the words of the verse I posted, not why does death reign. If there is no law to tell you what is sinful, even though a sinful act is committed it is not put against you account is what I believe is the context.

Your exact quote: “If sin was not imputed when there was no law does that not speak to a change in the way God dealt with sin though time?”

I stated it “where there is no law, a man is not accountable” because that is what your question seemed to imply. If death reigns even though there is no imputation of sin where there is no law, what would be the point of imputing sin? It would be a waste since we all die in Adam anyway, because death reigned. Let me put it this way, why impute sin, that leads unto death since we already know we will die because death reigned from Adam to Moses, or before the law? The law never made anything perfect.

Heb 7:19 “For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.”

The law was given to show us our sin, and our inability to be saved through the law, thereby showing our need of a Savior. Death reigned because of transgression through Adam. Remember what God promised in the garden, “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

I believe you misunderstand the context of this passage of Scripture. Adam knew no sin. He had no knowledge of good or evil until he disobeyed, then his eyes were opened and he knew he was naked. But the fact that Adam did not know what sin was, did not keep God from passing a judgment of death unto Adam and his progeny. His sinful act brought death upon all men before the law was given through Moses.



They still sacrificed animals at God’s command right? If by doing so they were obedient does this not still have relevance to there testimony on judgement day? Are you sure that it was “just a shadow”? As I agree with what you have said it does not really answer my question directly. Try again if you want to.

Grace and peace,

Joe

You ask, if by sacrificing animals, obeying God’s command, does this not still have relevance to there testimony on judgment day? Do you remember the verse I posted above from Hebrews?

Heb 7:19 “For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.”

I don’t believe the sacrificial law was “JUST” a shadow.

Is calling me Calvinist reasoning for you to dismiss what I say, regardless of Scriptural support? To set the record straight I follow the Biblical Reformed Doctrines of Sovereign Grace. To some that makes me a Calvinist, but I fear this label is given as an excuse to dismiss the Sovereignty of God in election, and thereby claiming they are heretical doctrines from John Calvin. I sincerely hope that is not true of you.

Many Blessings,
RW

Walstib
Aug 18th 2007, 01:08 PM
Hello Roger,
Do you always put labels on people whose doctrine you disagree with? Election does not originate with Calvin, it is a doctrine of Scripture. I find it ironic when people label me Calvinistic because I have never studied the works of John Calvin.


Is calling me Calvinist reasoning for you to dismiss what I say, regardless of Scriptural support? To set the record straight I follow the Biblical Reformed Doctrines of Sovereign Grace. To some that makes me a Calvinist, but I fear this label is given as an excuse to dismiss the Sovereignty of God in election, and thereby claiming they are heretical doctrines from John Calvin. I sincerely hope that is not true of you. I am sorry if how I worded things there made it seem I was labelling you personally. I guess it would have been better for me to say “believe in a predetermined election” as that was my intent alone. Calling that Calvinist I really did not think about any other TULIP things, my label was on the doctrine believed and not the person. I brought it up more because I saw it would be hard to find agreement on this topic not having agreement on this base precept. Not agreeing on a foundation block makes a discussion difficult to stay on a narrow focus as I see things.

I’ll respond to the rest of your post when I get the time. Thanks for your responses as they have been thoughtful and comprehensive. I just hope that my style of discussing things and beliefs do not lead you to dismiss what I have to say. I am going for “mutually encouraged by each others faith” and not a battle of any kind.

Grace and peace brother,

Joe

RogerW
Aug 18th 2007, 02:25 PM
Hello Roger,I am sorry if how I worded things there made it seem I was labelling you personally. I guess it would have been better for me to say “believe in a predetermined election” as that was my intent alone. Calling that Calvinist I really did not think about any other TULIP things, my label was on the doctrine believed and not the person. I brought it up more because I saw it would be hard to find agreement on this topic not having agreement on this base precept. Not agreeing on a foundation block makes a discussion difficult to stay on a narrow focus as I see things.

I’ll respond to the rest of your post when I get the time. Thanks for your responses as they have been thoughtful and comprehensive. I just hope that my style of discussing things and beliefs do not lead you to dismiss what I have to say. I am going for “mutually encouraged by each others faith” and not a battle of any kind.

Grace and peace brother,

Joe

Joe,

Thank you very much for this kind and thoughtful reply. It tells me a great deal about a true servants heart. After reading my late night response to you again this morning, I feel I too have reason to apologize. I know very well how that Scripture speaks of a soft and humble answer, and my reply last night lacks both. I too hope that we can continue the discussion in an effort to come to unity, but more important than that to edify and encourage one another and glorify our great God. Thank you too for beginning this thread, we don't know how little we know until we diligently search the Scriptures for truth. Makes me realize how truly small I really am.

Blessings,
RW

Walstib
Aug 20th 2007, 05:20 PM
I believe the Holy Spirit came in power after the cross, because of the results of the cross and what Christ accomplished; and thereafter, empowered believers and taught believers and strengthened believers in a way that had never been possible before. (Because of what they witnessed in its fulness at the cross).
I am with you so far….

It was this empowerment and instruction that allowed the gospel to begin to go forth unto all Gentile nations for the first time, and be heard, and be accepted by billions.
As with most times for me discussing the few points of disagreement or clarification is where I will concentrate. I do see much more agreement than the other. That said.

I am thinking your context is that the gospel as we know it always existed and that it went out to the gentiles for the first time. Yes? Only Jews by birth or conversion had the possibility to be saved before this? As I said in another post, what about those who lived before the Jewish nation started?

So I wanted to say that first, so as to not minimalize what the H.S. did following Calvary, and how His effect through people changed drastically.
Fair enough, that there is a change at all is a point I am looking into. I see there being more of a change then empowerment to spread the gospel to the gentiles. So do you though as well…

How to put this…. Could people looking forward to the cross partake in Jesus’ death? Be crucified with Him? Become new creatures? Then… does being a new creature, a fully adopted child of God, give a privilege when speaking of judgment? Is this seal of the Holy Spirit different then any indwelling that may have happened in the past?

However, the meat of the OP, from what I can see, is are OT and NT saints the same?
Not quite the meat… more about when and how all mankind that ever existed will be/were judged.

I think it is impossible, however, to say that the few faithful people of the OT weren't indwelt by the H.S.
Because if they weren't, then they couldn't receive regeneration from the H.S., and all of their deeds would have been evil.
I guess a difference would be I don’t have an issue with post mortem regeneration. The firstfruits that came alive after the resurrection and were seen in Jerusalem to me could have been regenerated at that time. Right now I think it possible that people could be born again when judged towards life at the final judgement. Then I am still thinking allot about all this.

They couldn't merit anything good on their own accord, any more than we can today. Their faithfulness came from the H.S. working in them, and directing them, and leading them....no different than us.
This makes me think of free will. Only God’s robots from the past will see heaven. Faith comes before indwelling no? Why would God judge those who line up at the last judgement for there works then? Do those who are in the first resurrection line up at this judgement? *this is my main thing I have to get solid on* If not what would this mean towards the meat of the OP?

Were the H.S. not active in Abraham's life as it is in our lives, He would have remained a wicked, evil, god-less sinner living in the pleasures of the worldly Chaldean empire.
Active in His life I can fully agree with, indwelling him the exact same way as a NT saint I wonder about still.

Yet the H.S. worked in Him and through Abraham to bring him to faith, repentance, and righteousness....something Abraham could have never accomplished on his own, without the H.S's involvement and direction.
Again this goes to free will for me again. Though there is much more agreement with your words here then not. Without God we can do nothing and without a doubt the Holy Spirit was active in his life. My brain hurts ;)

So, taking this completely away from the 'salvation issue', and just putting it at 'an everyday life issue'; I don't see how in any way, any OT saint could have done anything good, righteous, faithful, or pleasing to God...were it not for the H.S. in them leading, directing, and instructing them in the ways of righteousness.
Could a man do good without the Mr. Holy Spirit? I say yes. Good is good. Could this good save then? NO. If the person never heard the gospel yet had a clean conscience before God have a chance to get into heaven? I am thinking this is the purpose of the last judgement.

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Rom 2:12-16 KJV)

I feel like I am talking about so many things at once I am not getting my thoughts across well. The last judgement would be where I would want to focus…

Thanks for your thoughts,

Joe

Walstib
Aug 20th 2007, 10:29 PM
Hmmmm....hard questions. Soteriology is not for the faint of heart ...Indeed
First--let us not forget that God is not time-bound, as we are. So our understanding of "when" things happen is faulty. True for sure. It boggles my mind to think about time beginning and ending and I think probably beginning again on the new earth. And heaven being outside of time throughout all this. A new heaven starting yet still not being in time.. And even the term throughout does not do the topic justice. *head spinning* Still as we can’t fully understand “when” we can know that things do or do not happen.
As I see it, OT saints were sealed (assured) by God's promises, which never fail. Interesting to draw a parallel between assured and sealed. I’ll have to ponder that one.

Belief was credited (future) as righteousness. As I read this I wonder if you think Abraham would have been justified after death compared to NT saints being able to claim justification in the present?
I do not believe that anyone in the OT was permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit, as it was Christ's finished work that made this possible. Hebrews 11 speaks of some differences. Agreed to my understanding at present.

Christ's mission did not add to what was lacking in OT people; it provided a whole new package. OT saints were saved, but not in the process or fullness that we are blessed to know.
“were saved” … hard to talk about this and not let time come into the points ;)
I never apply pre-Pentecost Scripture the way I apply post-Pentecost. I believe that no one before Pentecost was equipped to spiritually understand the way Spirit-indwelt believers can. We are truly new creations. The very existance of a new covenant and the death of the testator to me confirms this.

Grace was certainly dispensed before the cross, but the Law still reigned. All the saved certainly end up in the same Heaven, but there is a qualitative difference between looking forward to the cross, and looking back at it. No? I say yes. Now to go forward and see how many of the qualities in the difference I can understand. God willing.

Grace and peace,

Joe

Walstib
Aug 22nd 2007, 05:06 PM
HI Roger,


I believe Scripture does show the OT saints are sealed, that they receive Spiritual life after Christ goes to the cross, and is resurrected to heaven. This sealing is found in Rev 7 with the sealing of the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel. I view this sealing as those who died in faith not yet having received the promise of Spiritual life enabling them to enter into heaven at death finally receiving the promise. They had to wait in faith until after the cross, and until the HS was poured out to dwell within man, thereby making them Spiritually alive. This sealing includes every OT saint from Adam forward, and the genealogical record of Christ confirms this. If I am reading your words right you think that 144000 is the total number of OT saints? This is a new concept to me if it is what you are saying.

Are we talking literal interpreting or figurative? Spiritually figurative?

If Israel started with Jacob what of them before him, like Adam himself?

Should these 144000 not all be virgin men if literal?

If there is a great multitude of other white robed people before the throne, before the next seal is broken or any trumpets sounded, before the earth is harvested, who are they then?? The twelve elders for that matter?

What do you mean the genealogical record confirms this?

Sorry but I am right confused trying to harmonize what you are saying to the whole of scripture. I don’t mind straying a bit from the OP to discuss all this here.

Grace and peace,

Joe

RogerW
Aug 23rd 2007, 02:42 AM
HI Roger,

If I am reading your words right you think that 144000 is the total number of OT saints? This is a new concept to me if it is what you are saying.

Are we talking literal interpreting or figurative? Spiritually figurative?

If Israel started with Jacob what of them before him, like Adam himself?

Should these 144000 not all be virgin men if literal?

If there is a great multitude of other white robed people before the throne, before the next seal is broken or any trumpets sounded, before the earth is harvested, who are they then?? The twelve elders for that matter?

What do you mean the genealogical record confirms this?

Sorry but I am right confused trying to harmonize what you are saying to the whole of scripture. I don’t mind straying a bit from the OP to discuss all this here.

Grace and peace,

Joe

Greetings Joe,

For the moment I will simply say yes I do believe the 144,000 represents all of the OT saints since the dawn of creation. As far as I know there is no verse in Scripture to tell me whether this is a literal or symbolic number. But what I can say is that it is a remnant, a very small remnant, especially when compared with the great multitude no man can number that come to saving faith through the message of the gospel. I think that is one of the things we should understand by this separation of saints from the Old and saints from the New, the strength of Christ and His cross.

I will be more than glad to try to answer your other questions, but before we start you know this discussion may send this thread to end times chat, if that is not a problem???

RW

Walstib
Aug 23rd 2007, 03:24 AM
Hi Roger,

All good with me though I don’t see a need for it to move even if we stray into that. It is difficult to discuss judgment and completed salvation without going into the end times. All my previous questions to people about the last judgment have been along those lines. Wherever it stays or ends up is fine with me. Plus right now it seems like it is just the two of us left here. *shrug* Past that I look forward to your reply and I am working on the reply to the other post of yours...


Grace and peace,

Joe

RogerW
Aug 23rd 2007, 06:17 PM
Hi Roger,
All good with me though I don’t see a need for it to move even if we stray into that. It is difficult to discuss judgment and completed salvation without going into the end times. All my previous questions to people about the last judgment have been along those lines. Wherever it stays or ends up is fine with me. Plus right now it seems like it is just the two of us left here. *shrug* Past that I look forward to your reply and I am working on the reply to the other post of yours...

Grace and peace,

Joe

Greetings Joe,

I hope you can see in my reply how OT saints and NT saints are all judged and redeemed through the same covenant promised in Christ before the world began. My response is far from in-depth, and if I leave you bewildered don't hesitate to ask for clarification.

Israel, the natural olive tree began with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the Israel of God from the Old Covenant has always been part of the natural olive tree. The Israel of God is the remnant/firstfruits saved by grace from the old, and the Israel of God is also the great multitude that no man can number from the new. God chose the natural olive tree through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob to be His covenant people under the old covenant. It was the nation, the natural olive tree that received physical promises through the natural seeds of Abraham. But it was the Israel of God within the natural through the Seed (Christ) of Abraham that received the eternal promise of everlasting life.

While it is true that the natural olive tree begins with Jacob, it is also true that the Israel of God began with Adam. When you look at the genealogy of Christ you find descendents of Christ beginning with Adam to Isaac who were all born before Jacob became Israel. All of these are of the Seed (Christ) or the Israel of God. They are of the natural seeds through lineage even though they were born and died before Israel became a nation. This is why they would be part of the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel, not through natural descent but through Spiritual.

I should explain that I believe the 144,000 tribes of children of Israel listed are not counted here as the natural sons of Jacob, but Spiritual sons through the Seed (Christ) of Abraham, and this Seed extends all the way back to Adam. I believe this is why in the listing of tribes, Judah being listed first, yet Rueben would be if this refers to the natural tribes. I believe Judah may be listed first because Christ descended from the seed of Judah, and this 144,000 represents those of the Spiritual Seed.

Ge 49:8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
Ge 49:9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
Ge 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Ge 49:11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
Ge 49:12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

I believe Rev 7 shows us the end of the Old era through the law, and the beginning of the New through the gospel. The four messengers (four meaning universal) symbolizing the holding back of the Holy Spirit (the wind) that should not blow upon the earth until a specific time in redemptive history. This time being Pentecost. Once the old testament saints receive Spiritual life, and are resurrected spiritually into heaven, then the world wide building of the Kingdom through the proclamation of the gospel through the universal church, and indwelling of the Holy Spirit begins.

That’s why John next sees a great multitude that no man can number. Prior to the message of the cross, and outpouring of the Holy Spirit very few (remnant/first fruits) were saved. But then the universal church is sent unto all the world to proclaim salvation through the cross, and even though there is great tribulation in bringing the message of Christ into the world, still the results of the message being sent through the power of the Holy Spirit, a great multitude that no man can number comes into the Kingdom.

I believe the book of Rev shows us a series of pictures depicting the same thing again and again, along with showing us others things as well. Each time there might be greater detail about how God is building His eternal Kingdom. Both Rev 7 and Rev 14 show us these 144,000 pre-cross saints. In Rev 7 they received Spiritual life, and were resurrected to heaven. In Rev 14 we see them before the throne of God, and we are told they were redeemed from the earth, and are not defiled by women because they are virgins, and firstfruits unto God.

It doesn’t make sense that John would be speaking about literal men and calling men virgins. Where virgin is mentioned in Scripture it is of an unmarried female. I believe we better understand this through the words of Paul to the church in Corinth. Paul takes credit for espousing them (the church) to one husband (Christ), and desires the church be presented to Christ as a chaste virgin. Paul is concerned that some of them could be beguiled through false preaching and become corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. I believe this is what John has in mind when he calls the 144,000 saints undefiled virgins. Woman in Scripture is not only pictured as the church, but also as the apostate church; consider for example Babylon, the Great Whore. These are called firstfruits unto God, coming into the Kingdom before the cross.

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

One more interesting thing to note in Rev 14 is that after John has finished describing the 144,000 saints from the old era, then he sees another angel flying through heaven with the everlasting gospel to preach to those on the earth (Rev 14:6). Again, I believe this shows us the end of the old era through the law, and the beginning of the new through the message of the cross, and indwelling Spirit. After the gospel has gone unto all the world, the last verses of Rev 14 seem to describe God’s wrath being poured out and Judgment Day.

Then in chap 15 we see what is described as a “sea of glass” and them who have gotten victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. Could this be another depiction of the great multitude that no man could number as seen in Rev 7? I believe it is.

Blessings,
RW

David Taylor
Aug 23rd 2007, 08:22 PM
For a non-indepth explanation, that was very good and clear Roger.

OT and NT people have the same sickness (Iniquity) and same antedote (Immanuel).

Makes perfect sense biblically to me, that they would be judged of the same accord. (because of their Iniquities, and absolved or condemned by Immanuel)

To every human born, Jesus will either say, "well done my good and faithful servant", or "depart from me into everlasting fire, I never knew you". Pretty simple judgement.

Walstib
Aug 24th 2007, 03:29 AM
Hi Roger,

Do you think the remnant, saved by grace from the OT did not believe? Did they not believe God’s prophets, sent to them to declare the coming of the Messiah? Did they doubt Isaiah when he spoke of the Lamb led to slaughter? What about the Seed to come? Why do you suppose God speaks of the nation saved as a remnant? I think that they did believe. I also think there is room for others to believe as well other than the remnant from Israel. I would say that some of them understood the prophets but not in the same way a NT saint can. Why a remnant? Because not all the Jews that ever lived will get into heaven.
Noah is not a Jew? When we are in Christ there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. Since Noah was in Christ, and Christ was a Jew the argument that through the lineage of Christ, Noah can be shown to be of the same seed is a valid one. We are playing semantics here. I was speaking of genetic Israel with my question. I can easily agree when speaking of spiritual Israel that all those in The Elect of God are spiritual Israel. Chalk this one up to not having a clarification of which one you were speaking of.
Salvation is of the Lord. I think of examples in Scripture such as John the Baptist, and how he was filled with the Spirit from birth, showing him saved from infancy. This tells me that the Lord will redeem whomsoever He wills. Did John the Baptist believe Christ unto salvation? How could he? Christ tells us that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (Ro 10:17). To believe means to have faith, did John the Baptist have faith while in the womb, or as a new born? How could he? Yet we are clearly told that John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from the womb.Yes the potter has the right to use His clay as He wills. I also think that His grace is extended to those that can’t even hear. This tells me that narrowly using one verse never proves anything. But this is more musing as I agree with you here.
Scripture also tells us that without faith it is impossible to please God, and that he that comes to God must believe that He rewards them that diligently seek Him. Again, how could a tiny baby have saving faith? Did John the Baptist diligently seek God? How could he? Again we are in more agreement then not.
How do we reconcile all these passages of Scripture showing having faith/believing is absolutely necessary for one to be saved with the infant John the Baptist being filled with the HS showing he is saved from infancy? How did John the Baptist attain faith/belief that is evidenced through sealing of the Spirit (Eph 1:13,14)? It’s really very simple to reconcile when you understand that faith/belief unto salvation is of the Lord. It is through His imputed righteousness that any are saved, or no one could be saved. Because this is true a tiny baby, or a mentally impaired person, or any other sinner can be saved. Salvation is of the Lord! (Jonah 2:9) While I am not sure John was sealed, I agree for the most part. The divergence might be that I believe all babies are saved and not just some that God elects with Him not electing others. Not just can be saved but will be saved. Throws a wrench into a small number of OT saints (144000) when I think of all the babies that would have died from the beginning of time until Pentecost.
At the last Judgment no one will go to hell. Hell is simply the grave, and both death and hell, along with all who are not written in the book which is of life will be judged and cast into the lake of fire. Those who stand before God in the great white throne judgment to receive eternal judgment are the dead. Believers are not called the dead. How could they be since when we are in Christ we can never die? Clarity of terms is important… my intention was “not going to heaven” wherever and however long that is. For me, looking at it, I agree people who believed in Jesus while alive on earth till death will not line up for this judgment. Then I think, if everyone who was “dead” is already bound for the second death, why even have this judgment? Plus the scriptures do not say none of these people were found in the book of life, it says all those who were not found in the book are cast into the lake. To me this implies that some of these people were found in the book, and not cast in.
So all the dead standing at the last judgment are judged out of the things written in the books. But we also read in vs. 12 of a book which is of life. If only the dead stand before the throne in final judgment what is this book which is unto life some are judged out of? Can any of the dead be written in the book unto life? The following verse says that those who worship the dragon and worship the beast are not written in the book of life. So vs. 15 is affirmation that only the dead are standing before God in the final Judgment, and the reason they are cast into the lake of fire is because they have never been made alive in Christ. Physically dead people could be given spiritual life and have the context work as I see it. Plus, if being regenerated is a work of Jesus and these people are being judged according to their own works I don’t see your context working. Know what I mean?

Re: imputation of sin with no law…

I believe you misunderstand the context of this passage of Scripture. Adam knew no sin. He had no knowledge of good or evil until he disobeyed, then his eyes were opened and he knew he was naked. But the fact that Adam did not know what sin was, did not keep God from passing a judgment of death unto Adam and his progeny. His sinful act brought death upon all men before the law was given through Moses.Listen to that MP3 in ProjectPeters Romans 7 post and it will explain the context I was going for. There was at least 1 law in the garden. Don’t eat from the tree… We can leave this one alone or go back to it if you want. I don’t think you are getting my context yet.
Grace and peace,
Joe

RogerW
Aug 24th 2007, 08:24 PM
Hi Roger,
I think that they did believe. I also think there is room for others to believe as well other than the remnant from Israel. I would say that some of them understood the prophets but not in the same way a NT saint can. Why a remnant? Because not all the Jews that ever lived will get into heaven.

You understand the remnant of Jews, but you cannot believe that God would condemn the vast majority outside the nation? I'm not saying there is not room for others to believe outside the nation, but I question what they believe in, or who they believe in? Consider those who died in the flood. If they died because their wickedness upon the earth grieved God, could they have believed in God? When God brought judgment upon the whole earth through the flood, He established His covenant with Noah only, and all the rest were destroyed because of wickedness. Do you believe that all these who died in wickedness, in unbelief perished only physically?

Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Ge 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Ge 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Ge 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Ge 6:18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.



The divergence might be that I believe all babies are saved and not just some that God elects with Him not electing others. Not just can be saved but will be saved. Throws a wrench into a small number of OT saints (144000) when I think of all the babies that would have died from the beginning of time until Pentecost.

Do you also believe we can lose our salvation? I'm guessing you also believe that babies are born in a state of innocense or sinlessness, and therefore they are not counted sinners until they commit transgression or until an age of understanding, whereby they can either choose life or death? That would mean that every baby growing up to choose death loses the salvation he had been given as a baby. That would mean that Pharoah, and Judas Iscariot, Esau, Ishmael and any other reprobate in Scripture would have been saved had they died in infancy?

Blessings,
RW