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Cyberseeker
Aug 26th 2007, 05:33 AM
Behold, the day of the LORD is coming …
... I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem …
… Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations …
… Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.
(Zech 14:1-5 abridged)
Amill supporters identify the 'day of the Lord' as being the destruction of this earth at his coming. They usually quote 2 Peter 3:10. Alright then, above is Zechariahs version of the same event. Problem is, Zech doesn’t teach the final destruction of the world. :hmm: On the contrary, he goes on to teach what looks like a millennial reign on earth.


… And the LORD shall be King over all the earth …
… And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations
which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King,
the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
(Zech 14:9-16 abridged)
So my question is this. What is the amillennial Interpretation of Zech 14 and how do they reconcile it to their doctrine?

PS Can we keep this thread to the opening post please? I only want to know how Amils read O.T. refs concerning the 'Day of the Lord.'

Cyberseeker

David Taylor
Aug 26th 2007, 01:15 PM
We've discussed this topic, from an Amill perspective, many times in the last year on this forum.

Here are several links to the threads that discussed it.

When do the feet of Jesus touch mt olives (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=95969&)

Face melting Banjo Solos, Zech 1-14, and Amill explanations as duly requested (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=60488&)

Face Melting Guitar Solos and Zech. 14 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=58605&)

It seems this would support the amil view . . . (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=81945&)

Cyberseeker
Aug 26th 2007, 03:36 PM
Oh boy, you sure have had a few little discussions on it. :cool:

They are rather long threads and Ive come late. I see Rookie put up some detailed argument from a premil perspective. Did anyone deal with the apparent contradiction between Zech 14:9 and 2 Peter 3:10?

David Taylor
Aug 26th 2007, 05:34 PM
Oh boy, you sure have had a few little discussions on it. :cool:

They are rather long threads and Ive come late. I see Rookie put up some detailed argument from a premil perspective. Did anyone deal with the apparent contradiction between Zech 14:9 and 2 Peter 3:10?

Yes, can't remember which of the threads, but look for a post discussing this from a member named 'wpm'. He differentiates the hebrew of 'the day of the Lord' and shows from the Hebrew how the Zech 14:1 phrase isn't referring to the climactic 2nd Advent where sin and death are destroyed, but rather, a future day (from Zech's perspective) when the Lord would come and literally step foot on the Mt of Olives, ala John 8:1.

ShirleyFord
Aug 26th 2007, 05:51 PM
Yes, can't remember which of the threads, but look for a post discussing this from a member named 'wpm'. He differentiates the hebrew of 'the day of the Lord' and shows from the Hebrew how the Zech 14:1 phrase isn't referring to the climactic 2nd Advent where sin and death are destroyed, but rather, a future day (from Zech's perspective) when the Lord would come and literally step foot on the Mt of Olives, ala John 8:1.

Dave, is this the one you were referring to?

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1193898&postcount=58

the rookie
Aug 26th 2007, 08:56 PM
Man, talk about a blast from the past...

David Taylor
Aug 27th 2007, 01:45 AM
Yeah, speaking of dripping banjos, our little praise-band got to do a fairly straight-chorded, old-timey feeling sound this morning that was in the key of G, so instead of playing bass, I pulled out my banjo and twanked away. Nothing as hot as the Zech 14 threads, but pretty good timing nonetheless.

Cyberseeker
Aug 27th 2007, 02:21 AM
Everything is a blast from the past on Endtime forums. ;)

Cyberseeker
Aug 27th 2007, 11:54 PM
Look what I googled up!


Martin Luther said of Zechariah 14, “Here, in this chapter, I give up. For I am not sure what the prophet is talking about.” :giveup:

Lol. I dont think he would be the only one.

third hero
Aug 28th 2007, 01:21 AM
Look what I googled up!
Martin Luther said of Zechariah 14, “Here, in this chapter, I give up. For I am not sure what the prophet is talking about.”
:giveup:

Lol. I dont think he would be the only one.

Well, unless one makes the connection between Zechariah 14 to Matthew 24 and Revelation 19:11-20:7, that will be the quote that many will continue to say.

matthew94
Aug 28th 2007, 02:57 AM
Here's my brief take on chapter 14 (I'm an amillennialist & partial preterist)...

Chapter 14 is, perhaps, one of the most difficult chapters in all of Scripture to interpret. Once again 2 major camps emerge. The first considers this a prophecy of the yet future second coming of Christ. The second considers this further description of 1st century events. Most probably fall somewhere in between, interpreting it with a blend of preterism and futurism.

The camp that sees this as the Second Coming argues that the language utilized could only speak of end-of-the-world events ('the Lord is coming,' 'all the nations,' 'the Lord will go out and fight,' 'His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,' etc). The second camp, however, argues that this is common apocalyptic language and need not be interpreted in such a wooden literal manner. The 'coming' referred to need not be a 'bodily' coming. The Roman Empire could be spoken of as encompassing 'all the nations.' The presence of God on the Mount of Olives was symbolic for His exit from Jerusalem (Ezekiel 11:23). I, personally, am inclined toward agreement with the latter (preterist) camp.

If the preterist interpretation is correct, then chapter 14 is a prophecy of AD70. All the nations (the Roman Empire) came to fight against Jerusalem. The city was severely defeated (2) leaving half of the survivors exiled. God, who had protected Jerusalem during the Maccabean period, now removed His presence from the temple and city and resided, so to speak, on the Mount of Olives to watch His sovereign Judgment (like He had when Babylon destroyed Jerusalem, Ezekiel 11:23).

Some, however, would remain part of Jerusalem, but, according to this interpretation, in a new way. No longer would they be part of a physical Jerusalem (no longer possible seeing as how it is utterly defeated), but they were now part of a spiritual Jerusalem (the city of God's people, the church). They would have access to living water (not literal water, but the Holy Spirit, see John 7:37-39). They would be part of the eternal Kingdom of God, a Kingdom that would remain secure forever. Subsequently, many enemies of the new Jerusalem would attack, but none would prevail against it. In fact, many of the enemies (gentiles) will become citizens of the new Jerusalem. In this kingdom, even the most mundane objects will be holy to the Lord. This seems to be a beautiful prophetic image of the church.

Cyberseeker
Sep 3rd 2007, 08:55 AM
Yes, it seem that Amill supporters have a problem with Zechariah and Premill supporters quote it to prove a millennial reign on earth.

But let us now have a look at the 'day of the Lord' according to the prophet Zephaniah. My question now is this: What is the pre-millennial interpretation of Zephaniah and how do they reconcile this to their doctrine? It seems to be more in agreement with 2Peter3:10 and seems to be saying the opposite to Zech!


I will utterly sweep away everything from the face of the earth," declares the LORD. I will sweep away man and beast; I will sweep away the birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea, and the rubble with the wicked. I will cut off mankind from the face of the earth," declares the LORD …
… The great day of the LORD is near …
… a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness …
… In the fire of his jealousy, all the earth shall be consumed; for a full and sudden end he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth …
… For my decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out upon them my indignation, all my burning anger; for in the fire of my jealousy all the earth shall be consumed.
(Zephaniah abridged)
Cyberseeker

Lou M.
Sep 3rd 2007, 02:32 PM
Oh Cyber, you know not what you ask.
Even Augustine made no attempt at Zechariah 14.
The farthest he got was 13:2. But he did believe in the future salvation of the Jewish nation to Christ in the last days, when:

"..they shall look upon Me Whom they have pierced.." (Zechariah 12)

divaD
Sep 3rd 2007, 10:18 PM
2 Peter 3:8 *But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 *The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 *But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up


Consider this, food for thought only. To tie all the refs of the day of the Lord together so that they happen in one day, we should consider 2 Peter 3:8. This doesn't mean that the Lord will keep making reappearances as things unfold. Obviously the day of the Lord spans 1000 years. At least it seems obvious to me. With this in mind, things make more sense, well at least to me. Like I stated, food for thought.
Personally, I also see Jeremiah 4:23-31 among many many more as part of what transpires within that thousand year time span. Most don't see the connection and the parallels to other Scriptures tho.

Cyberseeker
Sep 4th 2007, 12:47 AM
Oh Cyber, you know not what you ask.

That not all I know not. ;)

ross3421
Sep 4th 2007, 07:47 AM
There is only one "Day of the Lord", it is a future day when Christ returns. ANY TIME this verse is spoken it relates to this event.

Now the preterist view Zech 14 as past mainly due to the fact that it would be unthinkable for verses 16-20 to be in a future 1000 year reign.

The futurists claim that the chapter is indeed speaking of the future but must support a 1000 year reign in verses 16-20 as it would be unthinkable for this to be in eternity.


Let me say that Zech 14 is indeed clearly future but that verses 16-20 DO speak of the eternal Kingdom of God.


Mark.

David Taylor
Sep 4th 2007, 06:04 PM
There is only one "Day of the Lord", it is a future day when Christ returns. ANY TIME this verse is spoken it relates to this event.


These verses also use the phrase 'Day of the Lord'; but they weren't intended to be applied to a final endtime 2nd-Coming of Christ.

They were applied to the events of their Day in ancient history, long before the nativity in Bethlehem.

So it isn't accurate, to lump all 'Day of the Lord' phrases, as being only the future day when Christ returns.


Isaiah Chapters 1-3
1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.
3:1 For, behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water.

The context of 'the day of the Lord' above, was the upcoming Captivity because of idolatry.






Isaiah 13-14
13:1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. "

The context of 'the day of the Lord' above, was the destruction of Babylon, and the return of Israel to their Land as recorded by Nehemiah and Ezra.






Isaiah 45-46
"45:1 The word that Jeremiah the prophet spake unto Baruch the son of Neriah, when he had written these words in a book at the mouth of Jeremiah, in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, saying, Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, unto thee, O Baruch: Thou didst say, Woe is me now! for the LORD hath added grief to my sorrow; I fainted in my sighing, and I find no rest. Thus shalt thou say unto him, The LORD saith thus; Behold, that which I have built will I break down, and that which I have planted I will pluck up, even this whole land. And seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not: for, behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD: but thy life will I give unto thee for a prey in all places whither thou goest.
46:1 The word of the LORD which came to Jeremiah the prophet against the Gentiles; Against Egypt, against the army of Pharaohnecho king of Egypt, which was by the river Euphrates in Carchemish, which Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon smote in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah. Order ye the buckler and shield, and draw near to battle. Harness the horses; and get up, ye horsemen, and stand forth with your helmets; furbish the spears, and put on the brigandines. Wherefore have I seen them dismayed and turned away back? and their mighty ones are beaten down, and are fled apace, and look not back: for fear was round about, saith the LORD. Let not the swift flee away, nor the mighty man escape; they shall stumble, and fall toward the north by the river Euphrates. Who is this that cometh up as a flood, whose waters are moved as the rivers? Egypt riseth up like a flood, and his waters are moved like the rivers; and he saith, I will go up, and will cover the earth; I will destroy the city and the inhabitants thereof. Come up, ye horses; and rage, ye chariots; and let the mighty men come forth; the Ethiopians and the Libyans, that handle the shield; and the Lydians, that handle and bend the bow. For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates. Go up into Gilead, and take balm, O virgin, the daughter of Egypt: in vain shalt thou use many medicines; for thou shalt not be cured. The nations have heard of thy shame, and thy cry hath filled the land: for the mighty man hath stumbled against the mighty, and they are fallen both together. The word that the LORD spake to Jeremiah the prophet, how Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon should come and smite the land of Egypt. "

The context of 'the day of the Lord' above, was the ancient attack of King Nebuchadnezzar's army upon the Egyptians under King Pharoahnecho.





Ezekiel 13:1 "And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts. Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD. They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word. Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken? Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD. And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD. Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter: Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it. Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it? Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it. So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it; To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD."

The context of 'the day of the Lord' above, was the false-prophets during the time of the Babylonian captivity circa 500 B.C., and their destruction.






Amos 5:17 "And in all vineyards shall be wailing: for I will pass through thee, saith the LORD. Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him. Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it? I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts. Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols. But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel? But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves. Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the LORD, whose name is The God of hosts. "

The context of 'the day of the Lord' above, was Amos prophesying about the impending Babylonian captivity.





Obadiah 1:15 "For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been. But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions. And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it. And they of the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and they of the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin shall possess Gilead. And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south. "

The context of 'the day of the Lord' above, was Obadiah prophesying about the eventual return from Babylonian captivity.







Malachi 4:5 Behold, "I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD"

The context of 'the day of the Lord' above, was Malachi prophesying of John the Baptist, who would come within the next 400 years.

Matthew 11:13-14 "until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come."
Matthew 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I say unto you, That Eliajah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."








There may be other examples, where the phrase 'Day of the Lord' is found in the Bible, not referring to the 2nd Coming, but rather to a past, historic event....those are just a few examples.

third hero
Sep 4th 2007, 10:06 PM
Mr. Taylor,
It seems as though the only thing that you and I disagree on is the timeframe of the Millennium, since the above post is exactly what I believe. I find that I have been agreeing with you a lot sir....

I wonder what's going on? We usedd to argue against each other with such fervor... and now we are almost in complete agreement.....

Oh well, it must mean that as far as the signs of the Lod's return, we got that part correct.... I think:hmm:

Anyways, I agree that there is a major fallacy of claiming that the "Day of the Lord" can only refer to the Lord's return. IN Even Joshua's time, the Day of the Lord refered to the time when God delivered the plains of Jericho and the enemies of Israel into their hands. That term was used to refer to any major event in which the Lord made His judgment known. From the punishment of Saul, to the Babylonian captivity, to Daniel's revelations, and beyond. The Day of the Lord almost always meant the day of th Lord's Judgment, and it was not limited to just the Final Day.

John146
Sep 4th 2007, 10:24 PM
Good post, David. There is certainly a future day of the Lord to look forward to, but it is not the only day of the Lord in Scripture. People are not looking at this closely enough. There is no reason to think that every passage that mentions the day of the Lord must be referring to the time of Christ's return. Look what happens when people do that. They start to wonder if Scripture is contradicting itself because of an apparent contradiction between Zephaniah and Zechariah 14. But we should realize that those two chapters aren't speaking of the same thing. I don't believe Zechariah 14 and 2 Peter 3 are speaking of the same thing, either. Zechariah 14 makes no mention of the destruction and burning up of the earth while 2 Peter 3 clearly does. Also, Zechariah 14 contains a mixture of figurative and literal language just as the rest of the book does. 2nd Peter 3, on the other hand, is quite straightforward and literal.

Eric

Bing
Sep 11th 2007, 06:12 AM
Good post, David. There is certainly a future day of the Lord to look forward to

What makes you think this? Scriptures?

John146
Sep 11th 2007, 05:05 PM
What makes you think this? Scriptures?

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. - 1 Thess 4:13-5:6

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. - 2 Peter 3:3-13

third hero
Sep 12th 2007, 03:17 PM
Just to be clear, Eric,
You are saying that the Day of the Lord found in Zechariah 14 and the Day of the Lord found in 2 Peter 3 are not the same day. I agree. It is not the same day...

But that is where the agreement ends. Zechariah 14 mentions God coming, with His saints. 2 Peter speaks of the Lord coming to destroy the world. These are not the same day, and yet both of them are called the "Day of the Lord".

This is why I say that Zechariah 14 speaks of the Return of the Lord while 2 Peter speaks of the day the Lord hands the earth over to His Father for destruction, as Revelation 19-20 chronicles. Now I know we are opposed to each other on this point, and I do not seek to derail this thread or spark another inflaction-laced argument with you.

In that light, I will lastly restate what I have originally written. We are in agreement, that Zechariah 14 and 2 Peter 3 are not talking about the same Day.

Cyberseeker
Sep 12th 2007, 04:00 PM
Good post, David. There is certainly a future day of the Lord to look forward to, but it is not the only day of the Lord in Scripture.

So the general consensus is that Zechariah is a different ‘Day of the Lord’? :hmm: But what do we say about Zephaniah? Does everyone agree that the Zephaniah DotL is the same as the Peter DotL?
The great day of the Lord is near … In the fire of his jealousy, all the earth shall be consumed; for a full and sudden end he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth.
(Zephaniah 1:14,18)

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
(2 Peter3:10)

VerticalReality
Sep 12th 2007, 07:26 PM
That not all I know not. ;)

That hath made thy self laugheth out loudeth!:lol:

I love the language of religion. It's very entertaining!

John146
Sep 13th 2007, 05:04 PM
Just to be clear, Eric,
You are saying that the Day of the Lord found in Zechariah 14 and the Day of the Lord found in 2 Peter 3 are not the same day. I agree. It is not the same day...

But that is where the agreement ends. Zechariah 14 mentions God coming, with His saints. 2 Peter speaks of the Lord coming to destroy the world. These are not the same day, and yet both of them are called the "Day of the Lord".

This is why I say that Zechariah 14 speaks of the Return of the Lord while 2 Peter speaks of the day the Lord hands the earth over to His Father for destruction, as Revelation 19-20 chronicles. Now I know we are opposed to each other on this point, and I do not seek to derail this thread or spark another inflaction-laced argument with you.

In that light, I will lastly restate what I have originally written. We are in agreement, that Zechariah 14 and 2 Peter 3 are not talking about the same Day.

Do you believe that the day of the Lord of 1 Thessalonians 5 is the same day of the Lord as 2 Peter 3?

third hero
Sep 15th 2007, 12:53 AM
Do you believe that the day of the Lord of 1 Thessalonians 5 is the same day of the Lord as 2 Peter 3?
No. 1 Thess 5 is the continuation of 1 Thes 4, which is the return of the Lord. I believe that 2 Peter is the event that happens right before the Great White Throne of Judgment, where all of heaven and earth are destroyed, which happens after Christ reigns until death is defeated (1 Cor 15:23-26).

At the risk of derailing this thread, I will clarify my position.

1. 1 Thes 4-5 is the Return of the Lord to gather the Elect, and destroy the authorities of this world. I believe that when Christ returns, He will first gather His elect, then turn his attention to Megiddo, where the Beast and all of the Kings of the world will be waiting to "kill" Him. It is there where He takes vengeance against all of the nations of the world, while sending an earthquake to destroy the cities, mountains, and islands of the world. ONce the Kings of the world are defeated, Satan is bound for 1000 years, and the Lord begins His reign over earth until Satan and Death are finally defeated and sent to the Lake of Fire

2. 2 Peter 3 is the point in time when, while CHrist is ruling the world, the wicked are under the control of Satan, and they in their arrogance are proclaiming that everything is as it always was, only to find the Lord, in this case, God the Father, come to destroy heaven and earth. This happens right when Satan and the wicked people of the world launch an attack against Jerusalem for the last time. This is after Satan is released from his prison, and has gathered a large amount of people to do his bidding.

Two separate days of the Lord, two separate events that happen a good period of time apart from each other. Now, I know you do not agree with my asessment, and honestly, I feel as though this is derailing the thread enough. So, if you feel compelled to respond, do so, but this is my last post on this subject. All others that I type on this thread will be concerning the OP.

DeafPosttrib
Oct 1st 2009, 08:58 PM
Dave Taylor,

I try to open 4 links in post #2, but, it says that I am not able to open 4 links because not able to get login into. How can I get enter into 4 links. Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

David Taylor
Oct 1st 2009, 09:02 PM
Dave Taylor,

I try to open 4 links in post #2, but, it says that I am not able to open 4 links because not able to get login into. How can I get enter into 4 links. Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

No problem Phil, I just wasn't sure if they were still viewable or not.
I just restored them to ETC, so you should be able to read all 4 of them now.

John146
Oct 1st 2009, 09:16 PM
Well, isn't this an interesting thread. Cyberseeker is now an amil. :D

DeafPosttrib
Oct 1st 2009, 09:28 PM
Zech 14:4 is the only one verse that speak of Christ's feet touch on Mt. Olivet which relates with 'Day of the Lord' of Zech. 14:1.

Many saying Second coming is for Christ's feet to touch Mt. Olivet. While many saying Rapture is for Christ comes only up in the air, not touch on earth.

The problem is, nowhere in the New Testament saying that Christ's feet will touch on Mt. Olivet again at Second Coming.

Many use Acts 1:11,12 to prove that Christ shall come again to touch Mt. Olivet, since when after Christ ascended up from Mt. Olivet into the clouds. Do the angels saying to them that Christ shall touch Mt. Olivet at Second Coming? Silence.

Some interpreting Rev. 14:1 saying that Christ shall touch Mt. Zion literally at Second Coming. They believe this speaking of Christ shall touch on literal Jerusalem at Second Coming. My understanding of Rev. 14:1-5 give the picture with observation it is the scene of heaven that the saints are worshipping Christ in the heaven. This passage is not speak of Second Coming. I believe this is already happening right now for 2000 years. But, later Rev. 14:14-20 is very clear shown scene of Second Advent for to gathering the nations-harvest.

I do agree with Dave Taylor's comment on Zechariah chapter 14 already fulfilled at first advent during Christ's ministry in Israel, and Christ did actually touched Mt. Olivet during his ministry.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Cyberseeker
Oct 2nd 2009, 12:29 AM
Well, isn't this an interesting thread. Cyberseeker is now an amil. :D

I didn’t want to become an amillennialist. But when Jesus said the world was going to be blown apart I figured there wouldn’t be anything left to have a millennium on. :o

John146
Oct 2nd 2009, 07:56 PM
I didn’t want to become an amillennialist.Why not? You don't have to answer if you don't want to. I'm just curious.


But when Jesus said the world was going to be blown apart I figured there wouldn’t be anything left to have a millennium on. :oWell, it says the earth will be burned up, not blown apart, but the point remains the same. :)

Cyberseeker
Oct 2nd 2009, 11:00 PM
Why not? You don't have to answer if you don't want to. I'm just curious.

Oh, you know how it is. My church, my friends etc. I got myself into enough trouble being post-trib, without being A-mil as well. So I used to take the Historic pre-mill position. That way I had one less argument to worry about.

:blushhap:

divaD
Oct 2nd 2009, 11:27 PM
So I used to take the Historic pre-mill position. That way I had one less argument to worry about.

:blushhap:


IOW, it wasn't because you ever thought pre-mil was Biblical..you were pretty much trying to keep peace in the family. I guess it's funny why some ppl believe what they do. I'd rather believe what I believe, because I felt it was Biblical..and not because of peer pressure.

Cyberseeker
Oct 2nd 2009, 11:46 PM
Dont put words in my mouth Diva. :mad:

Most Christians take their biblical beliefs seriously but change their minds sometimes. Also, most Christians are products of their upbringing. In my case I belonged to the Church that created dispensationalism. It just took a little longer for me to work through the disinformation I had been fed.

kay-gee
Oct 3rd 2009, 12:05 AM
Why not? You don't have to answer if you don't want to. I'm just curious.

Well, it says the earth will be burned up, not blown apart, but the point remains the same. :)

Actually the Bible says it will melt away with fervent heat. Now I have seen a candle "melt" away. When it's finished there is nothing much left, in most cases a tiny puddle of wax, if that.

all the best...

kay-gee
Oct 3rd 2009, 12:10 AM
IOW, it wasn't because you ever thought pre-mil was Biblical..you were pretty much trying to keep peace in the family. I guess it's funny why some ppl believe what they do. I'd rather believe what I believe, because I felt it was Biblical..and not because of peer pressure.

I don't think that everyone has all the knowledge at the start. It is a life time of searching the scriptures and refining. I have had to change positions on some things as I have grown in the Word.

all the best...

divaD
Oct 3rd 2009, 12:26 AM
I don't think that everyone has all the knowledge at the start. It is a life time of searching the scriptures and refining. I have had to change positions on some things as I have grown in the Word.

all the best...



I fully agree, but I think one of the biggest mistakes some make is, they feel they have arrived. By that, I mean amil seems to be as far up the ladder as one can get when it comes to understanding of endtimes things. It's obviously a step up from pre-mil, since, usually former pre-mils become amils, and not the other way around. I'm not stating that amil is correct or incorrect, it just seems that omce one becomes amil there is nothing better to become, as if amil trumps all. And I honestly do not mean any of this sarcastically. It's just the way I perceive things overall, not that I'm right or anything.

kay-gee
Oct 4th 2009, 12:35 AM
I fully agree, but I think one of the biggest mistakes some make is, they feel they have arrived. By that, I mean amil seems to be as far up the ladder as one can get when it comes to understanding of endtimes things. It's obviously a step up from pre-mil, since, usually former pre-mils become amils, and not the other way around. I'm not stating that amil is correct or incorrect, it just seems that omce one becomes amil there is nothing better to become, as if amil trumps all. And I honestly do not mean any of this sarcastically. It's just the way I perceive things overall, not that I'm right or anything.

I know what you're saying DivaD and I don't take it as sarcatic at all. I firmly believe that it is a matter of milk and meat. I think the pre-mill position is popular with younger Christians (young in the faith), because it gets a lot of press from TV evangelists and it sells lot's of books and tapes etc...It creates intrigue in it's adherents. After all, some of the vivid scenarios that are claimed, are like straight from a sci-fi movie. Beasts that rise up and this thing and that. Pre-mill (as far as I can tell) is founded on a few very base things. A few vague scriptures from Daniel, juxta-positioned on some symbolic verses from Revelation and voila!
But when one really starts to look into the Bible, you begin to see the bigger picture, which in turn prods you on to search more thoroughly. So yes it is probably true that more Pre-mills turn Amill than vice versa. So much more I would like to say but I don't like long posts, but look forward to a sustained discussion with you about this.

all the best...

John146
Oct 5th 2009, 02:16 PM
Actually the Bible says it will melt away with fervent heat. Now I have seen a candle "melt" away. When it's finished there is nothing much left, in most cases a tiny puddle of wax, if that.

all the best...My point was that it doesn't say it is going to blow up, so you could have just said, "I agree that it doesn't say that.". :rolleyes:

Hawk
Oct 5th 2009, 02:39 PM
This thread certainly brings up lots of old school face melting banjo solo memories (see post #2)!