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BibleForums Christian Message Board - Bible Chat https://bibleforums.org/ Questions and answers. Any conceivable topic related to the Bible. en Thu, 20 Jun 2019 11:08:31 GMT vBulletin 60 https://bibleforums.org/images/misc/rss.png BibleForums Christian Message Board - Bible Chat https://bibleforums.org/ The idol of our age https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/287989-The-idol-of-our-age?goto=newpost Thu, 20 Jun 2019 05:32:06 GMT Saw this article today and it is spot on. Humanism is rampant even within the church. We have separated repentance from mercy, and made love more about tolerance or human compassion than what we see in the scriptures. Here's a more in depth review article:



By Chandler LaschJune 07, 2019

To believers who have noticed a disconcerting distortion of Christianity’s ideals of love and charity, Daniel Mahoney’s “The Idol of Our Age: How the Religion of Humanity Subverts Christianity” may be a godsend.

The book, which was published last December, addresses the problem of secular humanitarianism and its effect on the Church’s thinking about divine mercy and Christian charity. “The Idol of Our Age” has been widely reviewed, somewhat–though not entirely–to the author’s surprise. In an interview, Mahoney said the book has resonated with Christians in Catholic, Orthodox, and Evangelical circles who were aware of the problem he diagnoses but hadn’t put a name to it.

“I sensed that there was real discontent in thoughtful Orthodox-minded Christian circles about this increasing conflation of the Christian religion with a humanitarian political agenda, reducing Christianity to simply a project to promote left-wing social justice and pacifism, and, I think, a deeply problematic interpretation of the Gospels,” Mahoney said.
It seems unusual that “The Idol of Our Age” would resonate with Christians of such varying beliefs, but perhaps this speaks to the widespread effects of the religion of humanity. To understand the themes that most resonate with readers, it is helpful to examine the many reviews this book has received. Reviews often emphasize Mahoney’s explanation of love according to humanitarianism versus Christian love and charity, particularly in his critique of Pope Francis.

The humanitarian version of compassion is, Mahoney said, motivated by a desire to be nice to other people and understand their perspectives. While these are admirable goals, this compassion is clearly different from the biblical concept of divine mercy. “Compassion without a rooting in principle and a call to a change in behavior can lead to an abandonment of moral truth, and Christianity can become about ‘cheap grace’ way too easily,” Mahoney explained. “The modern sensibility is to identify forgiving and forgetting without a need for repentance. This also has a political dimension, and identifies Christianity with a kind of softness and relativism.”

In a review of the book, Rémi Brague, a professor of philosophy at the University of Paris and the University of Munich, addresses this substitution of humanitarian compassion for divine mercy in writing, “Christ said: ‘Ye are the salt of the earth, love your enemies.’ The new humanitarian religion says: ‘Ye should be the sugar of the Earth, you have no enemies…’ The new idol is all the more dangerous [in] that it apes Christian charity and tries to replace it.”

One reason the compassion of the religion of humanity is dangerous is because it emphasizes mercy but does not call for repentance, something Mahoney says Pope Francis is guilty of. “I’m not Jonathan Edwards talking about sinners in the hands of an angry God,” Mahoney told me. “I think the God of the Christian tradition is a loving God, but love is not an excuse for irresponsibility. It demands what Plato called a ‘turning of the soul,’ or what the Christian tradition calls ‘repentance.’ If one is satisfied in one’s sin, that’s not the Gospel. It has much more to do with modern hedonism.” Thus, humanitarians in the Church emphasize loving one’s neighbor, but misunderstand what Christian love entails. “Think of the two criminals on the cross with Jesus,” Mahoney said in an interview with First Things podcast. “One repents, and Jesus says, ‘This day you shall be with me in paradise.’ The other doesn’t repent, and Jesus says no such thing to him.”

Jesus says that his kingdom is not of this world, but the religion of humanity is concerned only with what is of this world. When Jesus spoke to a woman caught in adultery, he assured her that he did not condemn her, but he still instructed her to “go, and sin no more.” The religion of humanity would emphasize the lack of condemnation, but ignore the call to change. And yet, this subversion of Jesus’ message is not new, and extends even beyond the philosophers Mahoney engages. He references Pope Benedict XVI’s teachings on the temptations of Jesus. “The Devil promises Christ political power and the amelioration of the ‘social problems’ that plague humanity,” Mahoney writes. “Christianity can never be understood as a merely ‘humanitarian’ project without betraying faith in the promises of God or a true understanding of Jesus’s mission on Earth.”

An impact of the humanitarian influence on Christianity is that it not only distorts Christ’s teaching, but corrupts the authority of churches. “The more [churches] endorse a reductive, secularist religion of humanity and pretend it’s Christianity, the less attractive authentic Christianity will be for ordinary people,” Mahoney said in the First Things interview. “It’s quite possible the Catholic church could go the way of the Church of England– not die, but become a fundamental irrelevance, and that’s a deep concern of mine, that they literally don’t know what they’re doing.”

Mahoney examines a series of thinkers including Orestes Brownson, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, and Vladimir Soloviev, but readers and reviewers of “The Idol of Our Age” have paid particular attention to the chapter titled “Pope Francis’s Humanitarian Version of Catholic Social Teaching.” Mahoney refers to the Pope as “half-humanitarian” and “blind” to how “humanitarian secular religion subverts authentic Christianity.” “Of course I respect his office,” Mahoney said. “As a Catholic, I’m obliged. I think that in decisive respects he is really guilty of confusing Christianity with the religion of social justice.”

In his book, Mahoney writes that Francis has left the Church “divided and vulnerable to an unthinking political correctness,” and critiques his opposition to capital punishment. Though Francis opposes abortion, his understanding of mercy seems to prevent him from speaking out against it when it is difficult to do so, preferring to condemn what is considered evil in leftist circles. In fact, “Pope Francis has recently said that life imprisonment is just as immoral as capital punishment,” Mahoney said. “I think that does not reflect Christian judgement. The Biblical tradition makes clear that it’s possible for human beings to reject God’s love and grace, and Hell is a real possibility, but the humanitarian logic would lead to absolute rejection of punishment.”

Mahoney said that he has received responses ranging from those he calls ultramontanists, who refuse to criticize anything from the Vatican, to people like the writer Maureen Mullarkey. On her blog,she accused Mahoney of being too respectful toward Pope Francis, writing, “When ‘the arts of intelligence’ are applied to the actions of an office holder who distorts his office, it is reasonable–even mandatory–to withhold respect from him.”

Nonetheless, his careful assessment of Francis’s papacy impresses many of the book’s reviewers. In a piece for National Review, David P. Deavel writes, “Among Francis’s negative critics I’ve read, Mahoney takes the pope’s official documents the most seriously, finding in his work continuity with the Catholic tradition and, even in the most controversial documents, important insights.”

“Mahoney is no facile optimist or facile pessimist,” Deavel continues. “He’s a prophet calling us to listen with the heart, avoid the humanitarian siren song, and heed the civilizing memories of some figures, too little remembered.” “The Idol of our Age” diagnoses an important problem not only in Pope Francis’s theology, but in the Church as a whole. It is no wonder that, for those concerned with the perversion of Jesus’s message of love and divine mercy, and the effect that the religion of humanity has on the authenticity and authority of the Church, the book provides an important look, as Brague writes, into the unmasking of of the religion of humanity and “gives us a precious help for how to exorcise it.”

Chandler Lasch is the editor of RealClearReligion.

Bible Chat Brother Mark https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/287989-The-idol-of-our-age
the forbidden fruit https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/287942-the-forbidden-fruit?goto=newpost Mon, 17 Jun 2019 22:42:23 GMT This is pure conjecture on my part, for your consideration. I view the forbidden tree as put in the Garden of Eden to demonstrate the authority of God's word for Man in matters involving what Man may *not* do. God had already given Man tremendous freedom to exercise choice on earth. But God wanted to ensure that Man know there are limits to His freedom. He is *not* free to oppose God's word in any way, at any time. And so the tree was placed in the Garden, to show this reality.

It was called "the knowledge of good and evil" for the simple reason that disobedience to God's word, in partaking of the tree, would demonstrate "evil," namely the evil of opposing the authority of God's word. It was called "good" only because the tree, as all the trees in the Garden, were good, and produced good fruit.

However, when God tells Man that he may *not* eat something, God's word must override that good, and choosing to obey God's word must come before the right to participate in something good. The "evil" in the "knowledge of good and evil" should've been enough to prevent Man from partaking of the fruit of the forbidden tree.

Man should not have just looked at the "goodness" of the fruit, that it was something God created good for Man to eat. Man should've also considered that at times God will *not* allow us to do something good, specifically when He says no. He has the authority to do so, and chooses to demand recognition of His divine authority. ]]>
Bible Chat randyk https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/287942-the-forbidden-fruit
WHY IS ADAM NOT MENTIONED IN HEB 11:4 ? https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/287434-WHY-IS-ADAM-NOT-MENTIONED-IN-HEB-11-4?goto=newpost Fri, 14 Jun 2019 19:07:27 GMT Hi to all and feel that Adam was not mentioned because Adam had no Faith ! But notice that in Gen 3:8 that God walked Adam and his wife and to me that means that Adam walked by SIGHT as Godnwalked with them !! But I see that Adam and... Hi to all and feel that Adam was not mentioned because Adam had no Faith !

But notice that in Gen 3:8 that God walked Adam and his wife and to me that means that Adam walked by SIGHT as Godnwalked with them !!

But I see that Adam and Eve did have faith , BECAUSE in Gen 3:21 God killed and animal and clothed them and this means the skins that COVERED THEM speaks to the word ATONEMENT !!

Atonement carried into the Law of Moses and these sins had to be PAID for and Heb 9:15 these sins were forgiven by Jesus death on the cross !!

dan p ]]>
Bible Chat dan p https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/287434-WHY-IS-ADAM-NOT-MENTIONED-IN-HEB-11-4
What is Shavuot or Pentecost all about? https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286969-What-is-Shavuot-or-Pentecost-all-about?goto=newpost Mon, 10 Jun 2019 03:10:21 GMT SHAVUOT/PENTECOST What’s it all about? This is the time of year when this “Moed” (appointed time) is celebrated. There are three times when all Israelites were commanded to go up to Yerushalayim to celebrate God’s appointed times,... SHAVUOT/PENTECOST What’s it all about?

This is the time of year when this “Moed” (appointed time) is celebrated. There are three times when all Israelites were commanded to go up to Yerushalayim to celebrate God’s appointed times, Passover, The Feast of Tabernacles, and the Feast of Weeks, known as “Shavuot” or in Greek “Pentecost” which most churches recognize. We all remember the day of “Pentecost” as when the “Ruach HaKodesh” (The Holy Spirit) fell upon all the believers that were gathered in Yerushalayim to celebrate the Feast of Weeks.
Yet the “Feast of Weeks” (Shavuot) had been celebrated yearly for the past thousand years, ever since the day that Fire fell on Mt. Sinai. That was the very first “Shavuot”. When Moshe and the People of Israel received the Torah from God at Sinai in the form of two tablets of stone, but this was just the major points of the Torah, there were to be many more details in the making.
It really goes back to Egypt when the Israelites were still slaves. YHVH made some promises to His people, and we remember those promises in the forms of the 4 cups of wine during Passover.
1. “I am YHVH, I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians
2. “I will deliver you from their bondage
3. “I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments.
4. “I will take you for MY PEOPLE and I will be YOUR GOD.
The first three were accomplished in Egypt, then, at Sinai, on the day of Shavuot, the 4th promise was fulfilled. YHVH took the 12 tribes of Israel and united them as a NATION. The Israelites left behind Egypt, yet “Egypt” followed them across the Red Sea, in the form of mind-set and philosophy and in the form of “false gods” This was evident when they made the “golden calf”. It took YHVH one day to take Israel out of Egypt, but it took 40 years to take Egypt out of Israel.
When we read Exodus 19:18,19 we read about the day of “Torah-giving” at Sinai. They received the Torah amidst lightning, thunder, the sound of the Shofar and the voice of God. Yet when YHVH finished the 10th commandment, the people said, “Speak to us yourself Moshe, but don’t let God speak to us or we will die”
We wonder what would have happened if the people had not said that? Perhaps YHVH would have continued speaking out the commandments in front of all the people. But, YHVH called Moshe up to the top of the Mountain and the rest of the Torah was given. 10 commandments were spoken directly to the people by YHVH, and 603 were spoken by God to Moshe, and later, given to the people
In Leviticus, we see the commandment to celebrate Shavuot in chapter 23:15-22. They were to count “7” sabbaths (49 days) and then the next day (day 50) they were to celebrate. This time was harvest time. During the time of Passover, the barley harvest was ready, then 50 days later, the wheat harvest.
Two loaves of wheat bread were to be made and “waved” before YHVH (up towards heaven, down towards the earth, then to the North, South, East, and West) Blessing and thinking Adonai for the blessings from heaven (the rain that falls from Heaven down to the earth) blessing all the lands of the earth, those lands that are in the North, the South, the East, and the West. When it rains, the seeds come up, grow, and mature, then harvested.
On thing to note, God said; “when you enter the land which I am going to give you and reap the harvest…) So, this was not done while the Israelites were in the wilderness, but when they entered Canaan! And settled that land.
The two loaves of bread were to be baked with leaven. We think of leaven as related to sin, but it is also a good thing, leaven is also related to teaching and instruction. Yes, we are all “leavened” with the “sin nature” yet we are also “leavened” by God’s Word, his Torah, which should “grow” inside of us. So just as bread swells up and grows through leaven, so we grow through the “leaven” of God’s Word.
Together with the two loaves, 7 yearling lambs were offered, also a bullock, two rams, and a drink offering were presented as burnt offerings. The lambs symbolize “Yeshua” who is the “lamb of God” the number 7 symbolizes perfection. The bullock symbolizes the “strength” of Adonai, the two rams remind us of the substitute ram which took Isaac’s place on Mt. Moriah. Two rams, perhaps one for the Jews and other for the Gentiles, with the understanding that Yeshua was the substitute and redeemer for both Israel and for the rest of the nations (HaGoyim) The drink offering was wine, which symbolizes the blood of Yeshua.
One can wonder, why 2 loaves? The number 2 in Hebrew can symbolize “union and division”. It takes 2 entities to make a covenant. In our case, Yeshua and us! Through his death, we are “united” in Him when we trust Him as our LORD and Savior, and we are “divided” from the lost world of perdition.
We can look at the number 2 as in the loaves of bread as things that come in pairs; 2 tablets of the commandments, transformation and resurrection, cleansing and purification, death and life illustrated by the believer’s baptism, but it also symbolizes the Jews and Gentiles.
We can also see parallels in Sinai and Yerushalayim; Fire came down on Sinai, it also came down at Jerusalem. The fire at Sinai did not touch the people, the fire during Jerusalem’s Pentecost DID touch each and every believer! At Sinai, the “Ruach Elohim” (Spirit of God) rested on Moshe, at Pentecost, it INDWELLED in every believer. At Sinai, the Torah was written on tables of Stone and read to the people, at Jerusalem, the Torah was written on the tables of the heart of believers. Both events took place on Shavuot, both events were accompanied by languages. At Sinai, in Hebrew, at Jerusalem, in Hebrew PLUS many, many other languages (some believe 70)
At Sinai, there was a mixed-multitude (Israelites, Egyptians, and perhaps Nubians) at Jerusalem, people from all over the then populated world. The Torah is the teaching, the Holy Spirit, is the “teacher” Pentecost at Jerusalem also fulfills Isaiah’s prophecy: “For out of Zion shall come forth the Torah and the WORD of Adonai, from Jerusalem” (Isaiah 2:3)
At Sinai, the people were kept away, at Jerusalem, the people were touched by God, the glory of God came to each believer. In Old Testament times, the Spirit of God rested on only certain individuals, such as the Prophets, at Pentecost, it filled ALL BELIEVERS just as today, when a person receives Yeshua as LORD and Savior, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell inside of that person.
Another note; the Hebrew word KOLOT means both “voices” and “thunder”. At Sinai, the people heard “voices” both thunder and the voice of God. At Jerusalem, the people heard the “voices” of those who were gifted with the different languages to preach God’s WORD.
There are also ¨3 dimensions of Shavuot or Pentecost¨ Number 1, ¨Provision¨ Adonai provides us with our basic material needs. He has given us the fruit of the earth, the basic foods from the earth through rain, planting and harvesting, and of course, the sun. He has also given us our spiritual needs, through the Torah and understanding of the same through the Ruach HaKodesh (the Holy Spirit).
Number 2¨ Revelation of His WORD, first to Moshe at Sinai, and now to all believers, there is general revelation, through the evidence of HIS existence, all we have to do is look around us at nature, all things reveal HIM who created all things, and there is special revelation, HIS Holy Word through the Holy Spirit who gives us understanding.
Number 3 the Power of God, to understand His Word, through the Holy Spirit. In Judaism, there are 4 levels of understanding of the scriptures Peshat, Derash, Remez, and Sod ( literal, Spiritual and moral, symbolism, and hidden, some call it mystic, but I don t like that word, one can call it understanding through numbers, or gematria, (not numerology, mind you)
A final note, the first fruits of the harvest can symbolize “Yeshua” and the “harvest” itself, ALL BELIEVERS who are part of it. Today, there is still much “fruit” to harvest, so, we must get busy and teach the word and share the gospel with those who have an ear to hear and a heart to accept the same.


Rabbi Ben Avraham

Right now, writing and sending this from El Salvador, Central America, and using another keyboard which is weird, since some keys do not reflect the symbols printed on them. Oi! ]]>
Bible Chat Yakov https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286969-What-is-Shavuot-or-Pentecost-all-about
power in the word https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286883-power-in-the-word?goto=newpost Sat, 08 Jun 2019 21:47:32 GMT No, this isn't about Faith Doctrine, but rather, about divine virtue in our lives. It's been a regular theme with me lately, and I'm still wrestling with it. I believe that God's virtue flows through men when they respond to His word, saved or not. Cornelius was a good man, even before he became a Christian. He must've gotten his virtue from God's word--from obeying God's word.

In Deuteronomy we read that God's word was "near Israel to perform it." That means God's word is near to men to enable them to do with that word says. So what is the difference between Christians and non-Christians, if both can do good and be virtuous?

I believe that God's word would have us to not just be good, but to also shun evil completely by choosing to live in relationship with God. The ultimate evil, in this sense, is in shunning a relationship with God. It is insulting to God, I believe, to just want to do good and to shun a relationship with the One who directs His word towards us! If we don't live in relationship with God, we are rejecting the good regularly, and only doing the good occasionally. We are basically living life independent of God, and only doing good when it is convenient for us.

So what does virtue look like in the Christian, as opposed to the non-Christian? We know the non-Christian can do good, but what does he or she look like when they live independent of God and shun a relationship with God?

I believe that the Christian, in choosing to live in relationship with God, and in regular submission to God, actually comes to look like a child of God. In choosing this covenant relationship with God, God adopts us as His people and as His children. We are given to demonstrate ownership over the inheritance of God, and may demonstrate His virtues as a part of our regular lives.

On the other hand, the non-Christian, who chooses to shun a relationship with God, also chooses to reject this on-demand feature of God's covenant, and can only do good occasionally, appearing to be ungodly and flawed the rest of the time. Even Christians, who are flawed, can demonstrate divine ownership, and appear as God's children, all of the time. Even in our flaws we demonstrate a continuing relationship with God, and thus always show the attributes of God's children.

Rom 8.1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. ]]>
Bible Chat randyk https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286883-power-in-the-word
Is Romans 7 Hypothetical? https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286872-Is-Romans-7-Hypothetical?goto=newpost Sat, 08 Jun 2019 15:26:30 GMT For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good.... For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.(Romans 7:14-25)

Was Paul speaking of himself as a Christian here, IOW at the time of his writing it, or was he being hypothetical about his "lost" nature prior to salvation? ]]>
Bible Chat Aviyah https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286872-Is-Romans-7-Hypothetical
The Fulfillment of the Seven Seals of Revelation https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286562-The-Fulfillment-of-the-Seven-Seals-of-Revelation?goto=newpost Wed, 05 Jun 2019 01:43:04 GMT All seals of Revelation have been opened up to the last portion of the sixth seal of Revelation, which is the second coming of the Messiah. Read my bible study interpreting the first four seals of Revelation, which are the four horsemen, and the... All seals of Revelation have been opened up to the last portion of the sixth seal of Revelation, which is the second coming of the Messiah. Read my bible study interpreting the first four seals of Revelation, which are the four horsemen, and the fifth seal of Revelation, which is the great persecution of the people of God, which has already been fulfilled, and when the first portion of the sixth seal of Revelation happened, which is when "there was a great earthquake, the sun was turned to darkness and the moon turned to blood, and the stars fell from the sky", which are the last signs before the second coming, which have indeed already happened also.

Bible Chat cgneu https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286562-The-Fulfillment-of-the-Seven-Seals-of-Revelation
Do demons exist and possess people today? https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286528-Do-demons-exist-and-possess-people-today?goto=newpost Tue, 04 Jun 2019 14:57:49 GMT I am concerned that I have been demon-possessed in the past and that there are demon(s) in me right now. If I am correct, demons inside a person today can cause him or her to stress out when none is necessary, or to feel so guilty that he or she... I am concerned that I have been demon-possessed in the past and that there are demon(s) in me right now. If I am correct, demons inside a person today can cause him or her to stress out when none is necessary, or to feel so guilty that he or she commits suicide, or feels unable to explain his or her problems to others (analogous to demons causing people to go mute in the Bible). I also wonder 1) how a demon gets inside a person in the first place, 2) how to get demon(s) out ... If someone prays to the devil is that one way that a demon could get inside a person? Also I think about a possible connection between demon-possession and insanity, -- i.e. we have physiological explanations for schizophrenics and the mentally ill today, but I wonder if demon-possession causes it ultimately... that's what people in past centuries believed and I think that there may be truth to it...

Nowhere in the Bible does it say demons have completely gone away in 2019 or after Jesus rose to heaven, as far as I am aware.

James 2:19
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believeand shudder!

Mark 16:9
Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.

Mark 16:17
And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

(note: there is dispute over whether Mark 16:9-20 is inspired)

Mark 9:17-18
And someone from the crowd answered him, “Teacher, I brought my son to you, for he has la spirit that makes him mute. 18 And whenever it seizes him, it throws him down, and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid. So I asked your disciples to cast it out, and mthey were not able.”

Mark 9:22
And it has often cast him into fire and into water, to destroy him. But pif you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us

Mark 9:25 - And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.”

Mat 17:18
And Jesus rebuked the demon,b and itc came out of him, and the boy was healed instantly
(Some manuscripts insert verse 21: But this kind never comes out except by prayer and fasting)


I.e. my thought is that demons inside a person may ultimately kill the person, like a parasite... the casting of the boy into fire and water represents the self-destruction that the demon imposes onto its host...

I would like an explanation of your belief on the existence of demons today, and if you believe they possess people today, how do they get inside a person, how they affect people in different ways, the different types of demons, and how you get them out...


Josh ]]>
Bible Chat Joshua1 https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286528-Do-demons-exist-and-possess-people-today
<![CDATA[What does the "law of Moses" consist of?]]> https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286524-What-does-the-quot-law-of-Moses-quot-consist-of?goto=newpost Mon, 03 Jun 2019 19:47:47 GMT
In Joshua 8:32, Joshua "wrote on stones a copy of the law of Moses". This was done in the "presence of the people of Israel".

What exactly did Joshua write? i.e., can someone give me the range of verses? Is it Exodus 20 through Deuteronomy? Or just the Ten Commandments?

Even carving just ten numerals could have taken hours, I think, so I'm trying to understand what happened here. I can't imagine the Israelites stood for weeks while Joshua carved out several books, yet it says "a copy of the law of Moses". Unless that is something short like the Ten Commandments or the Shema or something...?
Bible Chat ObadiahHaidabo https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286524-What-does-the-quot-law-of-Moses-quot-consist-of
<![CDATA[We are ALL NUMBERED in God's Ministry; Numbers 1:1-4:20]]> https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286358-We-are-ALL-NUMBERED-in-God-s-Ministry-Numbers-1-1-4-20?goto=newpost Sun, 02 Jun 2019 00:24:19 GMT *PARASHA: “B’Midbar” (in the wilderness) * *NUMBERS 1:1-4:20………HOSEAS 2:1-22……. LUKE 11:1-12:59 * * We start the new Torah Sefer called “Numbers” in English because it talks about “numbering” the tribes of Israel. We wonder why the... PARASHA: “B’Midbar” (in the wilderness)

NUMBERS 1:1-4:20………HOSEAS 2:1-22……. LUKE 11:1-12:59

We start the new Torah Sefer called “Numbers” in English because it talks about “numbering” the tribes of Israel. We wonder why the reason of “numbering the people?” for this reason, we need to go back to the beginning to see.

In Egypt, Israel was a hodge-podge of undisciplined slaves working for Pharaoh, In Adonai’s timing, He sent Moshe, a “Messiah Type” to lead the people out of slavery to freedom. Once out of Egypt, came the task of taking Egypt out of the Israelites. They came to Har Sinai, ready to become a nation united under YHVH. The Ten Commandments served as the document in stone, a “Ketubah” to solidify the covenant. Now, the United Tribes of Israel under YHVH is established. But this is only the first part. Each Shavuot, we remember the giving of the “Torah in Stone” in the midst of thunder and fire.

Now that the nation is established, YHVH takes a count, why the count? As a nation, as every nation in the world has, the Nation of Israel needs an army! So, the count is taken to form the very first IDF (Israel Defense Force). I am sure that many of you that are reading this have served in one of the branches of the Armed Forces of the USA, or of other countries. I myself served in the US Army from 1972-1984. I met many people and learned many things. It was a great experience and a special time in my life. Quite a few of my family members also served in the Armed Forces, the first being an ancestor of mine, Richard Ellis, who served in the Massachusetts Militia in 1640.

YHVH takes up the count and “enlists” every man who is 20 years old and older. They will serve in the armies of Israel. All those who are …”20 years old and upward who are able to go to war.” After the numbering, part of the daily life would have been practicing and learning how to use different combat weapons, back then would have been swords, spears, bows and arrows, and slingshots.

Every soldier has a job to do. Today we call these jobs MOS, (Military Occupation Specialties) One of mine was that of chaplain assistant. I was to assist a catholic chaplain who everyone called; “Father McCarthy” who had a bulldog named “Gus” who also went to chapel with him. 11 of the 12 tribes were called to be fighting men yet the tribe of Levi, was called to be the “chaplain tribe” They were exempt from combat duty, they would attend the Tabernacle and services. There were the cohenim (the priests) who would be the “chaplains” and the “Levites” who would serve as the “chaplain assistants” sort of speaking.

So, you are thinking, what does this numbering have to do with us as born-again believers in Messiah Yeshua? We need to again, go back and look at our lives before and after Messiah Yeshua. Before, we were just a bunch of “hodge-podge lost sinners in the camp of HaSatan, until Yeshua took us out of that camp by shedding his blood on the cross of Calvary, when we accepted his sacrifice, we were officially “out” of the camp. Yet, there would still be a lot of “HaSatan and worldly influence” still in us, so, like the Israelites, “Egypt” was still in us.
When we accepted Messiah Yeshua as our Mashiach and Goel (Redeemer) we were added to the Commonwealth of Israel, now part of the Community, the “Adat” which began at Sinai 3500 years ago. We are the “olive branches” that have been “grafted into” the Olive Tree.

Now that we are members and citizens of “HIS People” we also are considered “soldiers” and in the LORD’s Army. However, we fight a different type of war. In this world, armies fight with RPGs, M-16s, Kalashnikovs, Berettas, M-60s, etc. We fight against, “spirits and principalities of darkness” it is a spiritual war against HaSatan and his demons. Only through the Ruach HaKodesh (The Holy Spirit) and the power of His WORD can we overcome the onslaughts of the enemy. He realizes he has lost the war, yet still continues to fight a losing battle, which was won at the cross 2000 years ago.

As the Cohenim ministered and had jobs to do, and also the soldiers had their jobs to do, we believers also have jobs within our “Kehilot” and “Adat” (congregations). That is why the Holy Spirit has given gifts of the Spirit, so that we might all serve in different capacities in the body of Messiah. In this way, the body grows and prospers. Some of us are rabbis, pastors, who also serve as teachers, also we have ministers in music and praise, finances, maintenance, prayer intercessors, counselors, and the list can go on.

The twelve tribes of Israel encircled the Tabernacle, with the tribe
of Levi next to it. The “Mishkan” was at the center of the People. So also, YHVH should be the “Center” of our life. The whole purpose of our life is to serve our God and Creator, while loving and supporting our brothers and sisters in the faith, reaching out to others who are lost, and teaching Torah to those who have ears to hear and learn. We are “numbered” in the eyes of Elohim, HE knows who we are, He has numbered the hairs on our head, and there is no such thing as “retirement” in the work of YHVH, well, there is…. It is called d-e-a-t-h.

Another detail which I would like to add to this midrash. When Adonai numbered the people, he chose leaders out of each tribe. In all groups of “chosen” there are “leaders”. They can be pastors, rabbis, Sunday school teachers, Torah teachers, counselors, etc. But every group needs a leader or leaders. If not, we have a lot of sheep running around without shepherds. We see the names of the leaders. Many ask about the meanings of the names. Well, here they are as follows. Starting with chapter 1, verse 5;

“Elizur’ = My God is the rock;” Shelumiel” = At peace with God. (I know, it sounds like “Schlemiel” but it isn’t. “Zurishaddai” = My Rock is Shaddai; “Nahshon” = Serpent, “Amminadab” = The (Divine) kinsman is generous ; “Nethaniel” = God hath given; “Eliab” = God is Father; “Elishama” = God hath heard, or God hears; “Ammihud” = The (Divine) kinsman is glorious; “Gammaliel” = God is my reward. In later times, it was the name of many famous rabbis, like the rabbi of Apostle Paul; “Pedahzur” = The Rock hath redeemed; “Abidan” = The Father hath judged;

“Ahiezer” = The (divine) Brother is a help; “Ammishaddai” = The People of Shaddai; “Pagiel” = The lot (or fate) is given by God; “Eliasaph” = God has added; “Deuel” or “Reuel” = God is a friend; “Ahira” the (divine) brother is a friend.

HOSEA 2:1-22

How would you react if God spoke to you in a dream or vision, and you knew that is was really HIM, and he told you, “Hey_________ I want you to marry a prostitute!” Weeelll, you would think, was it really God who spoke to me, or was it the pizza I ate last night giving me nightmares? Hosea was told to marry a prostitute, a “wife of harlotry” and…he obeys! Even though he knows that she will be unfaithful to him. He still loves her, in spite of her unfaithfulness.

This mirrors the love of God toward his people. Israel was unfaithful to YHVH. They went after false gods and committed “spiritual adultery” yet…the love of our LORD and Savior is beyond measure, and he forgave them, Yes, there was punishment, as all fathers will chastise and punish their sons and daughters, so Israel suffered captivity, banishment from the land, dispersion among the nations, yet we have not been forgotten, we are being gathered together and being brought back to the roots of our faith.

Will be unfaithful to our God? Every time we break the commandments, we are in a way, being unfaithful, we are being disobedient sons and daughters, but we have a forgiving Father, King, Savior. If we wonder away, let us return to the bridegroom, who awaits the return of his bride.

LUKE 11:1-12:59

This portion has quite a few themes. One of the most important is the “LORD’s prayer”. Many people “pray” this in a robotic way, a series of words in repetition, many “pray” this without really thinking, “What am I saying really?” Yeshua wanted his talmidim to do more than just “pray” the words, but to “think and meditate on what the words are saying;
OUR FATHER…only believers can call God “Father” it is special relationship, to a lost

person, God is their creator and will be their judge in the future, to a born-again believer, there is a “father-son/daughter” relationship….IN HEAVEN…He lives in the heavens (plural) in Hebrew it is always plural “HaShamayim” He is in the New Jerusalem, in outer Space, in our atmosphere, in our back yard, in our front yard, in our living room, and living inside of us. KADOSH BE YOUR NAME. His name “YHVH” is HOLY, and being Holy, His name should be spoken with reverence, whether we call him Yod Hey Vav Hey, or Adonai, or HaShem, or Adonai-Yeshua, Is our comportment as believers reflecting the holiness of HIS name? YOUR KINGDOM COME. His kingdom is already here! His kingdom is his activity on earth. His activity began with creation. There will be a political Kingdom that WILL COME down to earth in the

future, and we will all be part of it…. YOUR WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN… We should always ask for and expect his PEFECT will for our lives. There is his “permissive will” and his “perfect will” We want to be in his “perfect will” as He wants the best for us All the time. GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD… We ask for our daily needs be met, and when we are in his will, our needs will be met, and many times, our wants as well. HOWEVER, be careful for what we ask for, since sometimes “He will give us want we want, but we won’t want what we get! If you catch the drift! Sometimes, when we don’t ask for much, he gives us that, and much more, and sometimes, he gives us just a “little at a time” to keep us humble.

FORGIVE US OUR SINS AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO SIN AGAINST US. How can our Heavenly father forgive us if we hold grudges against others who have offended us? Sometimes, forgiveness is hard, but our Father commands it, and only through the Holy Spirit can we do it

Hosea forgave Gomer, his harlot wife, just like YHVH forgives us, LEAD US NOT INTO
TEMPTATION BUT DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE. But wasn’t Yeshua tempted? Yes, and he called upon the Father for strength. When temptations come our way, and they will, we

should ask that we not succumb to the temptation and pray for an escape route. The enemy preys on our weaknesses, our eyes, our mind, our ears, however, if we have our sight on Yeshua, our mind tuned to HIM, and our ears to hear his WORD, we will overcome temptation.

Shabbat Shalom ]]>
Bible Chat Yakov https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286358-We-are-ALL-NUMBERED-in-God-s-Ministry-Numbers-1-1-4-20
Seed of the Woman https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286286-Seed-of-the-Woman?goto=newpost Fri, 31 May 2019 14:27:53 GMT *When I think of the word “seed” in scriptures, I think of a bloodline mainly the house of Israel and those associated to the tribes. So the seed of the man. Yet in this verse in Revelation we all the sudden have mentioned a seed associated with a... When I think of the word “seed” in scriptures, I think of a bloodline mainly the house of Israel and those associated to the tribes. So the seed of the man. Yet in this verse in Revelation we all the sudden have mentioned a seed associated with a woman why?:

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Now to me this seed does represent a people, but not a bloodline. I see this as talking about the Christian church as being the seed. I was wanting to know how you all see this verse.

  1. Is the seed representing the church to you? If not what does it represent to you.
  2. Does the word remnant to you mean a select group within that church?
Bible Chat kyCyd https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286286-Seed-of-the-Woman
a new name https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286285-a-new-name?goto=newpost Fri, 31 May 2019 14:15:39 GMT Does God abandon Israel only because they are given a New Name? I think it's been pretty well established on this Forum that Christianity is a New Name for what used to be an Old People.

I don't think God has redefined Israel as the Church. But I would suggest that God has determined to save Israel, renaming them as Christians, and has added other nations onto them as God's People.

But is Israel abandoned because they are a New Creation? I don't think so.

I think the fulfillment of the Old is precisely through a New Creation of that very entity. If it was not so, we would all be destroyed.

But we are saved precisely because we, who were condemned to death as the Old Man, have now become part of the New Man. We are not destroyed, but Recreated. We are recreated, and renamed, but we do not thereby lose our identity.

In the same way, though Israel is temporarily cast off, they are not cast off forever. The Old Creation can be made into the New Creation. Israel will, I believe, be saved, and will be given a new name, along with other Christians.

But Israel will not lose its identity as Israel, nor will we lose our own identity as people and nations.

Does this make sense to you? Agree or disagree? ]]>
Bible Chat randyk https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286285-a-new-name
What happens to the devil at the end.. https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286163-What-happens-to-the-devil-at-the-end?goto=newpost Wed, 29 May 2019 11:50:41 GMT along with the wicked, as sin is brought to an end and those under its bondage meet Gods judgement? Ezekiel 28:11-19 11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say... along with the wicked, as sin is brought to an end and those under its bondage meet Gods judgement?

Ezekiel 28:11-19
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Malachi 4:1-3
4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Psalms 37:20 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalms 68:1-3
1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. 3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Psalms 73:27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Isa 41:11-12
11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish. 12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.

John 3:14-18
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3: 9-12
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire ]]>
Bible Chat hobie https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/286163-What-happens-to-the-devil-at-the-end