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What is the true significance of there being neither Jew nor Gentile?

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  • What is the true significance of there being neither Jew nor Gentile?

    I am now aware of a movement that I understand is called "Hebrew roots". My understanding of this is that adherents of this ideology want to embrace principles or laws espoused in the Torah, such as worshipping on Saturday, a lack of a literal Hell, and emphasizing the Jewishness of Christ.
    But the Bible tells us there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ, so we are not bound by certain of the laws in the Torah, as we are Gentiles.
    In Acts and Galatians the idea of having to conform to the Mosaic Law to be saved was condemned.
    What are your thoughts on this?

  • #2
    I was initially attracted to this movement when I first learned about it. But the more I learned, the more I started seeing some glaring problems scripturally. The most obvious being the scripture you mentioned: "there is neither Jew nor Gentile." In my opinion these groups are typical of many other Christian groups who want to glorify themselves, not Jesus Christ.
    Love is patient, love is kind; it does not envy, it does not boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.

    Comment


    • #3
      For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
      Originally posted by KennyB View Post
      Re: What is the true significance of there being neither Jew nor Gentile?
      For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. Romans 10:8-

      Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only?
      Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also; Romans 3:28-29

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by KennyB View Post
        I am now aware of a movement that I understand is called "Hebrew roots". My understanding of this is that adherents of this ideology want to embrace principles or laws espoused in the Torah, such as worshipping on Saturday, a lack of a literal Hell, and emphasizing the Jewishness of Christ.
        But the Bible tells us there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ, so we are not bound by certain of the laws in the Torah, as we are Gentiles.
        In Acts and Galatians the idea of having to conform to the Mosaic Law to be saved was condemned.
        What are your thoughts on this?
        I am a born heathen. The Jews are Jews. But in Christ we are one through regeneration, not carnal. Hebrew roots mean nothing to me and do not affect my faith in Christ. I love the Jews very much, but will not exchange the grace given to me for the law. I have already heard that when the temple is finished, Israel will begin to evangelize among the Gentiles to bring us back to God. (the law) This problem was already manifested at the time of Acts, where Pharisees wanted to apply the law to our Gentiles to rule over us.
        To God be the Glory

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by KennyB View Post
          I am now aware of a movement that I understand is called "Hebrew roots". My understanding of this is that adherents of this ideology want to embrace principles or laws espoused in the Torah, such as worshipping on Saturday, a lack of a literal Hell, and emphasizing the Jewishness of Christ.
          But the Bible tells us there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ, so we are not bound by certain of the laws in the Torah, as we are Gentiles.
          In Acts and Galatians the idea of having to conform to the Mosaic Law to be saved was condemned.
          What are your thoughts on this?
          The dilemma facing any man who turns to the God of the Bible - Jehovah, is, which way shall I go? God's dealings with Israel were markedly different to His dealings with the Church. Both are given, and enforced, by God. Let us examine a few of them
          • God promises Canaan to Abraham and his seed - God promises the Seed of Abraham (Jesus) the world (Rom.4:13)
          • God gives Israel a Physical Land - Canaan, but - God asks the Christian to be a pilgrim on earth
          • God gives Israel 620+ Laws written in stone - The Christian has upward of 2,400 instructions written plus the instant speaking of the Holy Spirit
          • God gives Israel a testimony of His JUSTICE - God gives the Church a testimony of MERCY
          • God gives Israel circumcision - God gives the Church Baptism (Col.2:10-12)
          • God promises Israel wealth for obedience - God promises poverty if the Christian will follow Him
          • God calls for Israel to slay their enemies - God requires the Church to love their enemies and not retaliate
          There are more. So what shall we say, and, which way shall we go? Are not both given by God? Are not both valid?

          The answer is in Eden. We see from Eden that God wanted man (plural) to (1) be in His image and likeness, (2) subdue a present problem and rule the earth as God would, and (3) be blessed with joy ("Eden" means "pleasure"). Though Eden is lost, and nearly all men are lost at Noah's time, again we see this plan of God in Shem, Japheth and Ham. In His discourse of Genesis 9:25-27, in this prophecy by Noah, God established Shem as the not only the one who had God as his God, but would be the source of subduing and ruling. Japheth would be enlarged and dwell in Shem's tabernacles, and Canaan would be cursed and be the slave of Shem. The word "enlarged" can mean "enticed" and can also mean "made roomy". The inference in this passage is that God had chosen a ruling party. This ruling arty would be a blessing to the Nations, and those who who despised the rule would be cursed and never rule. And all this was to come via "the God of Shem".

          The story of Israel is basically the same. To Abraham is promised that his seed would (1) possess the gates of his enemies - that is, rule over them, (2) be a blessing to all families of the earth, and (3) his enemies would be the enemies of Jehovah and be subdued. and the Church is basically the same. Jesus Christ approached Israel (of Shem) with the Kingdom of Heaven. That is, men with Jehovah as their God would be the leading nation and cause the rest of men to be blessed except those who actively allied themselves against Jehovah. These would be subdued and enslaved.

          However, we know the sad story. Israel refused the Kingdom of Heavenly rule, claimed Caesar as their king, and murdered their own King. For this, Jehovah takes away their Land Canaan and makes them pilgrims among strange nations. God, who had given Israel a Law that gave God His due, brought justice to the people, and resulted in temporal blessing, now turns to another way of fulfilling His Master Plan. He will raise up another people who will FIRST offer RECONCILIATION between God and man, and then institute RULE. Israel must be placed on the "back-burner" until such time as God has raised up, and trained, a New People for this DOUBLE DUTY - reconciliation and THEN rule.

          The Law given to Moses and Israel cannot function properly without the Land (for its harvests and blessings), and the Temple (to give God His due). So, no matter what a man under Law tries to do, without Canaan and without the Temple, he is a CONSTANT LAWBREAKER. And because the Law is anchored as a COVENANT, the PENALTIES ONLY APPLY. The man who tries to gain blessing by the Law, because of the justice required by the Law, is cursed and cannot be blessed. To be blessed again the man must (1) be in the Land, and (2) have God's Tabernacle/Tent/Temple there. Israel, in the age of the Church, are (1) under the curses of the Law, and (2) cannot keep the Law even if they tried. It only brings curses.

          Jehovah now turns to the Nations - the rest of the Shemites, the Japhethites, and the Canaanites - and offers them a place in the Kingdom of Heaven when it is set up on earth one day (Dan.2:44). The aim of God's plan is to set aside a time (1) to be reconciled to all men, or, at least all men who want reconciliation, and (2) train these reconciled ones to be future kings of the earth. And for this time of reconciliation THE LAW IS INADEQUATE! Why? Because the Law requires INSTANT JUSTICE, and if Jehovah administers administers instant justice no man will survive to be reconciled. God needs a TIME where the object of His plan HAS TIME to consider, and a TIME to be worked on to change him from an enemy of God to a friend. So God give His New Man AN-OTHER WAY. This way is to initially take the blows of the enemy, suffer injustice for the sake of peace, and NOT RETALIATE. JUSTICE and MERCY are mutually EXCLUSIVE. Normally, you cannot have one with the other. If the Judge wants to be just, he must follow the law and PUNISH the criminal. He MAY NOT give mercy. If the Judge wants to give MERCY, he must overturn the Law - which is injustice.

          So God solves this dilemma by allowing His Son, Jesus, to die for ALL MEN and their sin and sins (Jn.1:29, 1st Jn.2:2). Now, justice is satisfied and mercy can be extended for a while. The LAW can be set aside and MERCY can prevail. The DISCIPLE of Jesus MUST take the blows. Their retribution has already landed on Jesus. God can afford to GIVE TIME. This places the Law OFFSIDE in this age. LAW demands justice - an eye for an eye and a life for a life. MERCY allows the loss of an eye and of a life because our Lord Jesus took the blows upon Himself.

          BUT .....

          When the time that God has set for reconciliation IS OVER, all those offenders WHO REFUSED THE RECONCILIATION, must now pay for their crimes THEMSELVES. Not only are the offenders judged and apportioned RETRIBUTION, but they must now live under INSTANT JUSTICE. The way of Life on earth AFTER THE JUDGE HAS COME, is (1) The Law again for Israel, and (2) the "rule of the rod of iron" for the Nations. The only change for Israel is that the Covenant is changes in that the Laws given by Moses are now written on the inward parts of the Israelite (Jer.31:31-33). Instead of trying to keep the Law by outward effort, the Israelite after Christ returns will keep the Law by INTRINSIC NATURE. For the Nations, there will be blessings because of EQUITOUS RULE, and the rebels will be in prison and suffer RETRIBUTION.

          Now, it is obvious that the Hebrew Roots movement is NOT OF GOD. First, God, in His Law, forbids the Hebrews with having relations with the Gentile. So no Gentile can be part of this move IF IT IS OF GOD. Secondly, The Hebrew CANNOT fulfill all the Law without the Temple. If he breaks ONE LAW, he is "guilty of ALL THE LAW". So the Hebrew Roots movement lives in a constant state of curse (see Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28). Third, Jesus Christ offers PEACE with God. The Hebrew Roots movement MUST DEMAND RETRIBUTION. They are diametrically opposed to God's present move on earth. The Hebrew Roots movement requires a man to keep God's Law to be justified and receive blessings. God's present move require men to believe in the WORKS of Jesus and have justification imputed. The Hebrew Roots Movement refuses God's approval of Jesus and seeks to be approved by their effort. It is a serious thing to contradict God. The Hebrew Roots movement denies God's present plan, and tries to institute its own hybrid plan - a plan that satisfies NEITHER LAW NOR MERCY. The Hebrew Roots Movement is a man-made TRADITION which annuls BOTH the PURE LAW and PURE MERCY.

          Comment


          • #6
            They were broken off because of their unbelief;
            Who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 2 Corinthians 4:4
            But you stand by your faith [as believers understanding the truth of Christ’s deity]. Romans 11:20
            Originally posted by Walls View Post
            The dilemma facing any man who turns to the God of the Bible - Jehovah, is, which way shall I go? God's dealings with Israel were markedly different to His dealings with the Church.
            What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 just as it is written,
            “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.” Romans 9

            For indeed we have had the gospel, the good news [of salvation] preached to us, just as the Israelites also but the message did not benefit them, because it was not united with faith [because they didn’t believe]...Hebrews 4:2

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by jake2020 View Post
              They were broken off because of their unbelief;
              Who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 2 Corinthians 4:4
              But you stand by your faith [as believers understanding the truth of Christ’s deity]. Romans 11:20

              What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 just as it is written,
              “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.” Romans 9

              For indeed we have had the gospel, the good news [of salvation] preached to us, just as the Israelites also but the message did not benefit them, because it was not united with faith [because they didn’t believe]...Hebrews 4:2
              They rejected Christ the firstborn. They killed Him for His heritage. They refused repentance and denied the Son of God as Messiah.
              To God be the Glory

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by angelmike View Post
                They rejected Christ the firstborn. They killed Him for His heritage. They refused repentance and denied the Son of God as Messiah.
                They set them before the council. And the high priest asked them, 28 saying, “Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man’s blood on us!”

                29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. 31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” Acts 5

                Comment


                • #9
                  from: angelmike replied
                  I am a born heathen. The Jews are Jews. But in Christ we are one through regeneration, not carnal. Hebrew roots mean nothing to me and do not affect my faith in Christ. I love the Jews very much, but will not exchange the grace given to me for the law. I have already heard that when the temple is finished, Israel will begin to evangelize among the Gentiles to bring us back to God. (the law) This problem was already manifested at the time of Acts, where Pharisees wanted to apply the law to our Gentiles to rule over us.
                  ...

                  Abraham was selected by God and proved by his obedience to be worthy and righteous. God loved and accepted Abraham and told him his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the sky.

                  No one else in the world was called by God at this particular time except Abraham and his descendants. The time was approximately 4000 B.C. Moses came a fee hundred years later, the Law then the prophets, King David, more prophets, all descendants of the line of Abraham. The Old Testament describes in detail God's commandments to the Jews and the Coming Messiah, The Christ, The King of the Jews. He is the Savior. Jesus ministered to the Jews for 3 Year. These promises were only for the Abraham and his descendants.

                  But By shedding His Blood at the Cross This opened the rest of the world to be saved from the coming wrath of God.

                  Christian and Jews do not have the same destiny. Jews get their promise given to the fathers of old.

                  Christians get a better reward; they are joined into the Body of Christ and become co inheritors with Him.

                  Do you want the rest of the story.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rhern View Post
                    from: angelmike replied
                    I am a born heathen. The Jews are Jews. But in Christ we are one through regeneration, not carnal. Hebrew roots mean nothing to me and do not affect my faith in Christ. I love the Jews very much, but will not exchange the grace given to me for the law. I have already heard that when the temple is finished, Israel will begin to evangelize among the Gentiles to bring us back to God. (the law) This problem was already manifested at the time of Acts, where Pharisees wanted to apply the law to our Gentiles to rule over us.
                    ...

                    Abraham was selected by God and proved by his obedience to be worthy and righteous. God loved and accepted Abraham and told him his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the sky.

                    No one else in the world was called by God at this particular time except Abraham and his descendants. The time was approximately 4000 B.C. Moses came a fee hundred years later, the Law then the prophets, King David, more prophets, all descendants of the line of Abraham. The Old Testament describes in detail God's commandments to the Jews and the Coming Messiah, The Christ, The King of the Jews. He is the Savior. Jesus ministered to the Jews for 3 Year. These promises were only for the Abraham and his descendants.

                    But By shedding His Blood at the Cross This opened the rest of the world to be saved from the coming wrath of God.

                    Christian and Jews do not have the same destiny. Jews get their promise given to the fathers of old.

                    Christians get a better reward; they are joined into the Body of Christ and become co inheritors with Him.

                    Do you want the rest of the story.
                    I agree with most of what you say, except for the promises made to Abraham. Almost everybody seem to believe that having descendants like the dust of the earth and descendants like the stars of heaven are a mere repetition. This is not the case for several reasons.
                    1. There are generations of the earth and of the heavens already mentioned by the Lord in Gen. 2:4 where He makes a distinction: "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth ...". These are not the same as the rest below will show.
                    2. To Abraham God promise two things, not one. First the promise of the land in Gen. 13 where the Lord says in v. 14 - 16: "And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered." The second promise the Lord said something different, Gen. 15:5 "And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be". In Hebrew the word "so" isn't a numeral but means like this, thus, therefore a heavenly seed is promised and they do not inherit the land. In Gen. 22:17 both promises are repeated.
                    Abraham believed these revelations and it was counted to him for righteousness.
                    "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
                    a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
                    rightly dividing the word of truth."
                    2 Tim. 2:15

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      from: Adonijah replied
                      Gen. 15:5 "And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be". In Hebrew the word "so" isn't a numeral but means like this, thus, therefore a heavenly seed is promised and they do not inherit the land. In Gen. 22:17 both promises are repeated.

                      Could this a "heavenly seed" be referring to the Body of Christ?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Postings # 10 and # 11 are interesting. The first PROMISE is to Abraham's SEED. A study of the SEEDS of Abraham will show THREE.
                        1. The SEED (Singular) spoken off in Galatians 3:16 - Christ (see Hebrew 2:16 as well)
                        2. SEED in number as the sand of the sea shore - They were to inherit the "Land that I will SHEW you (Abraham)" and who "would become a great nation" We take this to mean Israel.
                        3. SEED in number as the stars of heaven. In this seed's first mention in Genesis 15:5, nothing is said, but a significant event had occurred. Abraham had refused EARTHLY SPOILS and sworn to take his rewards at the hand of God and not of men. And in 15:3 Abraham knew that he would not inherit this Land in his lifetime. For God to keep His promise, Abraham would have had to believe in resurrection. In the next mention of the "stars", in Genesis 22:17, another significant thing had happened. Abraham had not hesitated to offer his son Isaac. The ramifications of this are significant. Isaac was Abraham's only son from Sarah, and he was to be the line to a multitude of seed. How could this happen if he was dead? Isaac had not had children yet! To believe God, Abraham had displayed a trust in God that He could raise up the multitude of SEED IN RESURRECTION. And her in 22:17 is the PROMISE ENLARGED to "possess the Gates of his enemies". "Gates" in Parable mean "government" (Deut.21:19, 22:15, 25:7, etc.). That is, the "SEED as the stars" would rule the WORLD. And this is plainly said in Romans 4:13.
                        The seed as the "sand of the sea shore" will inherit the Land that God SHOWED Abraham, and they would be a great nation. The "SEED as stars of heaven" would rule the world. But the question that still remains is; how does one TRANSITION from a grain of sand to a star? The answer is, of course, that that SINGLE SEED (point 1 above) would be the source! Just as all Israelites according to the FLESH were in Abraham's loins, via Isaac, so would all the STARS have to be IN the FIRST STAR - Jesus Christ. John 12:24 gives the principle. Jesus Christ, a GRAIN Himself, must die, and this death would bring forth MANY GRAINS. And according to Genesis 1:11-12, in which God made an immutable Law, if Jesus was a STAR - that is, of heavenly origin and nature - His many SEEDS would be STARS. And this it what Galatians 3:29 says. If you are IN Christ, you are SEED of Christ. And if Christ was SEED of Abraham, the STARS become HEIRS TO THE WORLD.

                        As said in an above posting, the SEED as "sand" get the Land that Abraham was shown. But the SEED as the "stars" inherits the RULE OVER TH EARTH - the Kingdom (out) OF Heaven. And so it is. The prophets do not cease to predict the recovery of Israel and their return to their LAND. But Who rules them? Jesus - THE Star - is their King. David, who wrote extensively about Christ in the Psalms, and believed looking forward, just as we believe looking backwards, is Christ's "second in command" (Jer.30:9). And then the Twelve Apostles - Believers - rule the 12 Tribes in third place. And the rest of Christ's SEED are appointed, by Jesus, King of kings, to rule the cities of the Gentiles (Lk.19.17-19). The SAND gets their Land as Promised. The STARS get "the Gates of God's enemies" (for God's enemies are also Abraham's enemies). The SAND are earthly - "terrestrial" and seed of the flesh. The STARS need a heavenly origin, and a heavenly birth and their unfit bodies need RESURRECTION - "for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom!"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by rhern View Post
                          from: Adonijah replied
                          Gen. 15:5 "And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be". In Hebrew the word "so" isn't a numeral but means like this, thus, therefore a heavenly seed is promised and they do not inherit the land. In Gen. 22:17 both promises are repeated.

                          Could this a "heavenly seed" be referring to the Body of Christ?
                          No, because this (the Body of Christ) is the great mystery only revealed to Paul in the letters to Ephesians, Colossians and Phillipians. Before that it was unknown, it is part of the unsearchable riches of Christ. (Eph. 3:8)
                          "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
                          a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
                          rightly dividing the word of truth."
                          2 Tim. 2:15

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Walls View Post
                            Postings # 10 and # 11 are interesting. The first PROMISE is to Abraham's SEED. A study of the SEEDS of Abraham will show THREE.
                            1. The SEED (Singular) spoken off in Galatians 3:16 - Christ (see Hebrew 2:16 as well)
                            2. SEED in number as the sand of the sea shore - They were to inherit the "Land that I will SHEW you (Abraham)" and who "would become a great nation" We take this to mean Israel.
                            3. SEED in number as the stars of heaven. In this seed's first mention in Genesis 15:5, nothing is said, but a significant event had occurred. Abraham had refused EARTHLY SPOILS and sworn to take his rewards at the hand of God and not of men. And in 15:3 Abraham knew that he would not inherit this Land in his lifetime. For God to keep His promise, Abraham would have had to believe in resurrection. In the next mention of the "stars", in Genesis 22:17, another significant thing had happened. Abraham had not hesitated to offer his son Isaac. The ramifications of this are significant. Isaac was Abraham's only son from Sarah, and he was to be the line to a multitude of seed. How could this happen if he was dead? Isaac had not had children yet! To believe God, Abraham had displayed a trust in God that He could raise up the multitude of SEED IN RESURRECTION. And her in 22:17 is the PROMISE ENLARGED to "possess the Gates of his enemies". "Gates" in Parable mean "government" (Deut.21:19, 22:15, 25:7, etc.). That is, the "SEED as the stars" would rule the WORLD. And this is plainly said in Romans 4:13.
                            The seed as the "sand of the sea shore" will inherit the Land that God SHOWED Abraham, and they would be a great nation. The "SEED as stars of heaven" would rule the world. But the question that still remains is; how does one TRANSITION from a grain of sand to a star? The answer is, of course, that that SINGLE SEED (point 1 above) would be the source! Just as all Israelites according to the FLESH were in Abraham's loins, via Isaac, so would all the STARS have to be IN the FIRST STAR - Jesus Christ. John 12:24 gives the principle. Jesus Christ, a GRAIN Himself, must die, and this death would bring forth MANY GRAINS. And according to Genesis 1:11-12, in which God made an immutable Law, if Jesus was a STAR - that is, of heavenly origin and nature - His many SEEDS would be STARS. And this it what Galatians 3:29 says. If you are IN Christ, you are SEED of Christ. And if Christ was SEED of Abraham, the STARS become HEIRS TO THE WORLD.

                            As said in an above posting, the SEED as "sand" get the Land that Abraham was shown. But the SEED as the "stars" inherits the RULE OVER TH EARTH - the Kingdom (out) OF Heaven. And so it is. The prophets do not cease to predict the recovery of Israel and their return to their LAND. But Who rules them? Jesus - THE Star - is their King. David, who wrote extensively about Christ in the Psalms, and believed looking forward, just as we believe looking backwards, is Christ's "second in command" (Jer.30:9). And then the Twelve Apostles - Believers - rule the 12 Tribes in third place. And the rest of Christ's SEED are appointed, by Jesus, King of kings, to rule the cities of the Gentiles (Lk.19.17-19). The SAND gets their Land as Promised. The STARS get "the Gates of God's enemies" (for God's enemies are also Abraham's enemies). The SAND are earthly - "terrestrial" and seed of the flesh. The STARS need a heavenly origin, and a heavenly birth and their unfit bodies need RESURRECTION - "for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom!"
                            Not sure where you've got this, but I'm not agreeing at all. The Kingdom out of heaven is still on earth, it's the Kingdom God wants to erect in Israel. It has nothing to do with those who according to the Lord are accounted worthy to obtain that aion, the resurrection of the dead, who will be equal to the angels Luke 20:35, 36. Angels do not live on earth in a kingdom, the never did and Scripture says nowhere they ever will. Of this group Paul says they will be the Lords brethren as Rom. 8:29 tells us: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.". Brethren of the Lord are not subjects in a kingdom on earth.

                            The seed as the stars of heaven do not just rule over the earth, they inherit the cosmos i.e. heaven and earth as Rom. 4:13 says: "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world (Greek: cosmos), was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith".

                            Abraham looked for a city which hath foundations Heb. 11:10 whose builder and maker is God. This is the building aionic (thus the next aion) in heaven 2 Cor. 5, they are the generations of the heavens whose center is the New Jerusalem, Gal. 4:26 "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all", before it descents.

                            You are still mixing the two groups, which is really a shame.
                            "Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
                            a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
                            rightly dividing the word of truth."
                            2 Tim. 2:15

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Adonijah View Post

                              Not sure where you've got this, but I'm not agreeing at all. The Kingdom out of heaven is still on earth, it's the Kingdom God wants to erect in Israel. It has nothing to do with those who according to the Lord are accounted worthy to obtain that aion, the resurrection of the dead, who will be equal to the angels Luke 20:35, 36. Angels do not live on earth in a kingdom, the never did and Scripture says nowhere they ever will. Of this group Paul says they will be the Lords brethren as Rom. 8:29 tells us: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.". Brethren of the Lord are not subjects in a kingdom on earth.

                              The seed as the stars of heaven do not just rule over the earth, they inherit the cosmos i.e. heaven and earth as Rom. 4:13 says: "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world (Greek: cosmos), was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith".

                              Abraham looked for a city which hath foundations Heb. 11:10 whose builder and maker is God. This is the building aionic (thus the next aion) in heaven 2 Cor. 5, they are the generations of the heavens whose center is the New Jerusalem, Gal. 4:26 "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all", before it descents.

                              You are still mixing the two groups, which is really a shame.
                              Thanks for your answer. After re-reading my post I realized that for some it would be complicated. I take for granted a certain command of scripture which is not the case. For this I apologize. However, you really only contended with two of the points I made. These I will answer.

                              1. A kingdom is a sphere where a certain king rules and has his commands carried out. When our Lord Jesus prayed to the Father in Matthew 6:9-10, He said:

                              9 "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
                              10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."


                              Verse 9 says that the Father is in heaven. Verse 10 makes a plea the Father's Kingdom would COME. That is, the Kingdom of God the Father HAS NOT COME. The Father's SPHERE where He rules is heaven. Verse 10 goes on to say "Thy WILL be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven." That is, God's WILL, His rule, His authority is carried out in heaven BUT NOT ON EARTH. It is true that the Father has all authority in heaven and on earth, and He can do what He likes. But at the moment the Gentiles rule and God will, as some future date, change the rulers of the earth (Dan.2:44). The only sphere where Christ rules is the Church, so John can say that he is in the "kingdom" of our Lord. But John does not exercise rule over the Gentile authorities. Rather, as a Christian, he is commanded by the Lord to SUBMIT to the higher powers.

                              When our Lord Jesus returns, He will set up His Kingdom ON EARTH, and so the RULE will be from heaven. This, it is called the Kingdom OF Heaven. "OF" means FROM.

                              2. The Greek word "kosmos" can mean the universe, but its true meaning is "the orderly arrangement of things". It is usually translated "world" (186 times in the new Testament). As an example of its meaning we find in ...
                              • Matthew 13:38, "The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one". Here the earth is meant for the the children of the kingdom are on earth, not in heaven.
                              • 1st John 2:2, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world", it is again the EARTH because there is no propitiation needed in heaven.
                              • 1st John 2:15 says, "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." Here we see that it is not the earth that John is talking about, but the SYSTEM OF THINGS, or "the arrangement of things", because the next verse give this arrangement; "for all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."
                              • John 3:16 it seems to contradict. It says; "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Here we go back to the meaning of EARTH.
                              So when Romans 4:13 says that Abraham and his seed will rule the world, it means this earth and the arrangement of things. Heaven is already taken care of, and man was not made for heaven - BUT EARTH (Gen.1:26-28). God has never given up His plan. We see it in Psalm 8, Daniel 2:44 and in Revelation 11:15 and 12:10.

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