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What is the true significance of there being neither Jew nor Gentile?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Walls View Post
    Justice and Mercy are diametrically opposed. Look what happened to our Lord Jesus so that mercy may be extended. Justice did not come short but was paid for terribly.
    No, Justice and Mercy are at opposite ends of a single spectrum. That is obviously true, because it is true in every judicial system in the world at present! It was true in the OT, and it is true in the NT.

    The dichotomy created by Marcion and by Darby attempts to fit Scriptures, New and Old, into a rigid system that is not true to Scriptures, nor true to reality. The fact is, Justice takes place today, by the hand of God, and Mercy takes place today, by the hand of God.

    Those who are unable to see God's acts in history are unwilling to conflate them. And that isn't, I believe, faith. Faith *sees* God in history.

    And in history we don't see Justice denied simply because God shows patience. Rather, we always see Judgment after a period of divine patience. The "patience" itself is a demonstration of God's Mercy. And so, both Mercy and Justice have existed *all through history!*

    Originally posted by Walls
    I'll agree with you here. I could have used more accurate language. God warns of "the spoiling of your goods" (Heb.10:34)

    I did not use the word "displace".
    The Law of Moses IS in place. The New Covenant, to be made with COMBINED Israel, contains, as its conditions, God's Law (Jer.31:31-33). The Law will only pass (i) at the passing of the old heavens and old earth, and (ii) when it has been fulfilled. To date, Israel, to whom the Law applies, have not fulfilled the Law (Matt.5:18).
    You are conflating 2 distinct systems of divine Law! God's Law of Man existed from before the foundation of the earth, to create Man in His own image and likeness. This became Man's universal and eternal Law.

    The Law of Moses, by contrast, came into existence perhaps around 1500 BC. It was a *temporary* system, as indicated by Paul, who referred to it as a "schoolmaster," leading us to Christ. Now that Christ has come, he argued, the "schoolmaster" is no longer needed.

    Your view here is totally heterodox. Reinstating the value of the Law of Moses flies in the face of everything Paul taught, and in the face of what believing Christians have taught all down through the ages.

    Historic Protestantism, for example, would rise up from the grave to dispute with you on this matter. Why you choose to take such an unconventional approach boggles my mind. I would agree with you on so many things if it wasn't for this glaring black mark by your name.

    Perhaps the thing that makes you so good is the thing that does the greatest harm to you? It helps you to think, independently, just as I do. But it hurts you not to submit to others, who are just as entitled to ministry as yourself.

    Originally posted by Walls
    That is not an argument. It is a personal opinion. Added to this, the word "dispensation" comes from the Greek word "Oikonomia", which means "Household management". God's household management is different from Adam to Abraham, then different to Israel, and different to the Church, and again different after the LOrd's return. If there were no dispensations how come Paul gets a dispensation that no one else had. Why was Adam not the minister of the dispensation? (1st Cor.9:17, Eph.1:10, 3:2, Col.1:25). Just because a fifth grader cannot explain aerodynamic lift, or the four Laws of Newton, does not mean that aircraft cannot fly. Any man who says that there is not a distinction between Israel and the Church has not read the Bible.
    lol! At this point, I hadn't even yet made the argument! I was just forming a premise for what I was about to say, that I held general disagreement with Darby and with those who like to fit the OT and NT theological systems into diametrically opposite places. That, in efffect, renders God schizophrenic, or 2 separate gods, as the heretic Marcion believed.

    Originally posted by Walls
    The Bible never mentions a Christian Kingdom. The Bible never even alludes to Israel joining this mythic Christian Kingdom. The Bible gives FOUR Kingdoms from Nebuchadnezzar to Christ's second coming. ALL ARE GENTILE (Daniel 2). There are no Christian Nations or Government. How could they be if the Christians are TAKEN OUT OF THEM AND MADE A NEW MAN?
    You are quite wrong, in my humble opinion. The Jews are chalk full of belief in a future Messianic Kingdom. That Jesus and his Disciples believed it is evident in the book of Acts.

    Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
    7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by randyk View Post

      No, Justice and Mercy are at opposite ends of a single spectrum. That is obviously true, because it is true in every judicial system in the world at present! It was true in the OT, and it is true in the NT.

      The dichotomy created by Marcion and by Darby attempts to fit Scriptures, New and Old, into a rigid system that is not true to Scriptures, nor true to reality. The fact is, Justice takes place today, by the hand of God, and Mercy takes place today, by the hand of God.

      Those who are unable to see God's acts in history are unwilling to conflate them. And that isn't, I believe, faith. Faith *sees* God in history.

      And in history we don't see Justice denied simply because God shows patience. Rather, we always see Judgment after a period of divine patience. The "patience" itself is a demonstration of God's Mercy. And so, both Mercy and Justice have existed *all through history!*



      You are conflating 2 distinct systems of divine Law! God's Law of Man existed from before the foundation of the earth, to create Man in His own image and likeness. This became Man's universal and eternal Law.

      The Law of Moses, by contrast, came into existence perhaps around 1500 BC. It was a *temporary* system, as indicated by Paul, who referred to it as a "schoolmaster," leading us to Christ. Now that Christ has come, he argued, the "schoolmaster" is no longer needed.

      Your view here is totally heterodox. Reinstating the value of the Law of Moses flies in the face of everything Paul taught, and in the face of what believing Christians have taught all down through the ages.

      Historic Protestantism, for example, would rise up from the grave to dispute with you on this matter. Why you choose to take such an unconventional approach boggles my mind. I would agree with you on so many things if it wasn't for this glaring black mark by your name.

      Perhaps the thing that makes you so good is the thing that does the greatest harm to you? It helps you to think, independently, just as I do. But it hurts you not to submit to others, who are just as entitled to ministry as yourself.



      lol! At this point, I hadn't even yet made the argument! I was just forming a premise for what I was about to say, that I held general disagreement with Darby and with those who like to fit the OT and NT theological systems into diametrically opposite places. That, in efffect, renders God schizophrenic, or 2 separate gods, as the heretic Marcion believed.



      You are quite wrong, in my humble opinion. The Jews are chalk full of belief in a future Messianic Kingdom. That Jesus and his Disciples believed it is evident in the book of Acts.

      Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
      7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
      If a judge applies the Law to its required extent, he is righteous. No mercy is allowed by Law. If he extents mercy he is merciful but UNRIGHTEOUS. Mercy and Justice are diametrically opposed and mutually exclusive. The Law of Moses is clear in Deuteronomy 13:8,"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him." But the reason we disagree is very evident. I take God's Law as reference, and you take the judicial systems of the world.

      The dispute about whether the Law is still valid is caused because you make mankind ONE. But mankind is divided into THREE, (i) Gentiles, (ii) Israel, and (iii) the Church. You apply scriptures that are meant for the Church to Israel. If you have a Contract with another man, and you break it, the Contract is not dissolved. The Contract comes into play more than ever with its penalties. Israel have the Covenant of Law. It is not annulled. The full weight of its penalties are to be seen by all but those who want to be blind. Israel is still under Law. But if an Israelite embraces Christ, he is transported to a new realm. He is a New Creature. FOR HIM the Law is abolished. The Nations NEVER HAD the Covenant of Law. It can never apply to them just as you could never claim any benefit or penalty of the last contract I made with somebody.

      I'm sorry to disappoint you. I am not on this Forum to make disciples. I am here to show, by consistent argument, drawn to its logical end, based on God's Word, what is the truth. I surely do not possess all truth, and I surely make mistakes. And I'm just like any other man. I would like to be popular. But if a man has something from God, he better apply it no matter the consequences. I am not a student of Marcion, and while I think Darby was gifted and used by God, I am not his disciple. But you better believe that God has TWO PEOPLES, and He deals with them DIFFERENTLY. It is the glory of man to line things in one row. It is the glory of God that He can run two different lines at once, differently but perfectly, and without violating His integrity. This does not make Him schizophrenic. It just displays His utter superiority and endless capabilities before limited men. Anybody who reads Romans Chapters 9 to 11 can only come to one conclusion. God has TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLES and is DEALING DIFFERENTLY with both at THE SAME TIME. One is called (i) "brethren according to the FLESH and (ii) "natural branches" BEFORE AND AFTER THEIR RECOVERY. The other are (i) "brethren according to the Spirit" and (ii) are called "wild branches" WITHOUT CHANGE. One has obtained mercy BY FAITH, and the other will receive mercy WITHOUT FAITH. It's not rocket science brother.

      In Galatians the CONTRAST between the TWO cannot be more pronounced. And in the final analysis - New Jerusalem, THE TWO ARE DIFFERENT AND SEPARATE.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Walls View Post
        If a judge applies the Law to its required extent, he is righteous. No mercy is allowed by Law. If he extents mercy he is merciful but UNRIGHTEOUS. Mercy and Justice are diametrically opposed and mutually exclusive. The Law of Moses is clear in Deuteronomy 13:8,"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him." But the reason we disagree is very evident. I take God's Law as reference, and you take the judicial systems of the world.
        I do not separate God from history in the world. Apparently you do? In my world, which is indeed the Lord's world, as well, there is both justice and mercy. And no--you're wrong. Even human law, including the Law of Moses (both human and divine), had elements of mercy in its judgments. For example, it judged Miriam as a leper and then it absolved her of her guilt (though the full Law had not yet been given). It dictated people could be guilty only for a time, whereas at other times people could be judged eternally. Temporary judgment is a judgment combined with mercy. Or don't you see that?

        Originally posted by Walls
        The dispute about whether the Law is still valid is caused because you make mankind ONE. But mankind is divided into THREE, (i) Gentiles, (ii) Israel, and (iii) the Church. You apply scriptures that are meant for the Church to Israel. If you have a Contract with another man, and you break it, the Contract is not dissolved. The Contract comes into play more than ever with its penalties. Israel have the Covenant of Law. It is not annulled. The full weight of its penalties are to be seen by all but those who want to be blind. Israel is still under Law. But if an Israelite embraces Christ, he is transported to a new realm. He is a New Creature. FOR HIM the Law is abolished. The Nations NEVER HAD the Covenant of Law. It can never apply to them just as you could never claim any benefit or penalty of the last contract I made with somebody.
        You make these distinctions up out of whole cloth! The world is not divided up into 3 camps any longer! The world is divided up into more than 200 nations! But there is no division between Israel and the Gentiles based on Israel being under the Law, and the Gentiles not.

        The Law has been *done away with!* The Law led up to Christ, where Christ supplanted and fulfilled the Law. He superseded it. Jesus said John the Baptist was the greatest prophet under the Law, because he was the prophet of Christ. But those in the Kingdom through Christ are now greater than John the Baptist was, because we are under the new Christian system, and not under an outmoded system that was inferior to Christ and meant only to lead up to Christ!

        Originally posted by Walls
        I'm sorry to disappoint you. I am not on this Forum to make disciples. I am here to show, by consistent argument, drawn to its logical end, based on God's Word, what is the truth. I surely do not possess all truth, and I surely make mistakes. And I'm just like any other man. I would like to be popular. But if a man has something from God, he better apply it no matter the consequences. I am not a student of Marcion, and while I think Darby was gifted and used by God, I am not his disciple. But you better believe that God has TWO PEOPLES, and He deals with them DIFFERENTLY. It is the glory of man to line things in one row. It is the glory of God that He can run two different lines at once, differently but perfectly, and without violating His integrity. This does not make Him schizophrenic. It just displays His utter superiority and endless capabilities before limited men. Anybody who reads Romans Chapters 9 to 11 can only come to one conclusion. God has TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLES and is DEALING DIFFERENTLY with both at THE SAME TIME. One is called (i) "brethren according to the FLESH and (ii) "natural branches" BEFORE AND AFTER THEIR RECOVERY. The other are (i) "brethren according to the Spirit" and (ii) are called "wild branches" WITHOUT CHANGE. One has obtained mercy BY FAITH, and the other will receive mercy WITHOUT FAITH. It's not rocket science brother.
        It's not "rocket science" to deal with 200 different nations on the earth either, brother! That's what we have today, and their differentiation does not in the least mean they all have separate covenants!

        Israel does not have any separate covenant now. We know that because that's what Paul meant when he said, "there is neither Jew nor Greek." Paul wasn't saying there are no longer any national or ethnic distinctions. No, he was saying that there is only one covenant for all--the covenant of Christ.

        I agree with you that we must be true to ourselves. And I appreciate your humility. That makes it much easier for us to disagree without lowering ourselves to cheap comments, etc. I appreciate that Christian attitude. I just wish to tell you, brother to brother, that I believe you need to rethink this. You have the tendency to group things into neat and tidy categories. And although this works great for teaching, sometimes it creates false categories that I believe need to be reexamined.

        Originally posted by Walls
        In Galatians the CONTRAST between the TWO cannot be more pronounced. And in the final analysis - New Jerusalem, THE TWO ARE DIFFERENT AND SEPARATE.
        Different nations are on different time frames, but they are still now only under a single covenant--the covenant of Christ. The fact the *history* of the distinction between Jew and Gentile is mentioned regularly in the Bible doesn't at all mean this separation still exists. On the contrary, Paul repeatedly asserts that it doesn't!

        Comment

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