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  • The Requirements of Salvation

    I made this because there are people preaching in these final years of the world, teaching that
    just by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ you can be saved. If it was that easy we wouldn't have scriptures
    warning us that few will be saved and that the path to eternal life is narrow, of which few be there that find it.

    A holy and sanctified life lived in strict obedience unto the commandments and precepts taught in the word of God,
    the Holy Bible, is required of all those that seek the salvation of their souls. This is what the Bible is speaking
    of when it says that we must be born again. Born again means to be transformed by God into a new moral life.

    John 3:3 KJB
    "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except
    a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

    If all we had to do was simply believe, demons and the wicked heathen would be saved. For there are
    innumerable people in this world that war against God and His saints and know the truth.

    James 2:19
    "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

    If all we had to do was believe then this verse below would have no meaning.

    Matthew 7:14
    "because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

    We see from the verse below that they that do the will of God, that keep His commandments and precepts
    taught in the word of God, the Holy Bible, will be saved. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ that He
    is the true messiah, that He really is God in the flesh, is the absolute first step anyone must take on the
    path of salvation. It is the first commandment of God we must obey, to simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
    For why would anyone even begin to consider keeping His commandments and obey Him if you didn't believe He
    was who He said He was.

    Matthew 7:21
    "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the
    will of my Father which is in heaven."

    When it says to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ it should always be accompanied with the explanation that
    obedience, love and duty to and for Him is also required in this faith.

    James 2:17
    "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

    We see that faith (trust) in God is really false faith without doing the works of God. What works are these?
    These works are the commandments and precepts taught in the word of God. For example, overcoming the world,
    and the lusts there of, giving alms, preaching the truth of Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible, encouraging one another, loving one another,
    honoring your parents, not hating anyone, not stealing, etc. These are just a few of the many holy commandments
    given to us by God in the Holy Bible.

    1 John 2:17
    "And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

    If the entire Bible could be summed up in one verse I would choose the following.

    Ecclesiastes 12:13
    "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

    Understanding faith and grace.
    Faith means to have trust and hope in God.
    Grace means the favor of God.
    To have faith (trust) in God you must have a good conscious toward Him.
    To have a good conscious toward God you must obey Him.
    Faith and obedience go hand in hand.
    If you are obedient to God's commandments and precepts He will give you true faith, real trust in Him.
    He will show you that you can trust in Him by the protection of His Spirit (the Holy Spirit).
    Grace and obedience also go hand in hand.
    If you are obedient, the grace (favor) of God will be upon you and all that you do.

    If you want to be saved from the damnation of Hell, get in the word of God,
    start in the New Testament at the gospel of
    Matthew, preferably in a King James Bible (link to PDF of complete KJB below) and read every word and do exactly as God's word teaches you.

    (please note PDF files can contain contain viruses or malicious code, I believe the file is safe and have downloaded it myself, but make sure it is also safe for you)
    http://gffg.info/Jesus/KJBPDF.html (dont worry it does not instantly download)
    Last edited by BlessedCreator; May 31 2020, 03:45 AM.
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  • #2
    Ah yes, we meet again = ) (I posted on another thread of yours at a different forum... heard no response there, so I don't really expect one here, but here goes anyway, LOL).

    What do you believe the following passage conveys (addressed to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"):

    6 So then we should not sleep [G2518 (note: DIFFERENT Grk word from what was in chpt 4:13,14,15! ; ) )] as the others [G3062], but we should watch [G1127] and we should be sober. 7 For those sleeping [G2518], sleep [G2518] by night; and those becoming drunk, get drunk by night. 8 But we being of the day should be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet, the hope of salvation, 9 because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through [/BY MEANS OF] our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch [G1127] or we might sleep [G2518 - same two words as in v.6!], we may live together with [G4862 - denoting 'UNION-with'] Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as also you are doing.


    What do you believe this passage means? Particularly, the way in which "G2518" and "G1127" are USED here, in context.

    Comment


    • #3
      First I'd like to apologize for not answering your other post on another forum, I just get so many replies that I don't have enough time to see them all let alone respond.

      "Let us not sleep.—The metaphor here expresses not so much actual sin (Ephesians 5:14) as carelessness in spiritual and moral things. “Let us not say, ‘Peace and safety,’ and resign ourselves to indifference about Christ’s coming.” St. Paul (as always) indicates that it was possible for “children of light” to be converted back into “children of darkness.” - Ellicott commentary on 1 Thessalonians 5:6

      The word sleep meaning "carelessness in spiritual and moral things" in verse 6, but in verse 10 "Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." the terms wake or sleep mean living or dead.
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      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by BlessedCreator View Post
        The word sleep meaning "carelessness in spiritual and moral things" in verse 6, but in verse 10 "Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." the terms wake or sleep mean living or dead.
        Except, the phrase in v.10 is "so that, whether we WATCH[ https://biblehub.com/greek/1127.htm ] or sleep" (contrasting the two, same [two words] as in v.6! and a DISTINCT "sleep" word from that in chpt 4:13,14,15 speaking of those who DIED [sleep in death], G2837... different idea there).

        I believe the CONTEXT (of vv.6 and 10) are SAME.




        Not to be rude, or anything = ) , but what you've put here (which I bolded and underlined in your post) ^ sounds only like so much human reasoning.

        IOW, it is not really a result of "exegesis," but instead, reading your own ideas INTO it.

        Don't feel too bad though, as TONS of people do that, with this passage! = D

        Comment


        • #5
          John 1 2:17-"And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will if God abideth forever."
          We are to understand that the world abideth forever. "World without end".
          Isaiah 45, Ephesians 3.

          We are the ones who pass away. We are the ones who leaveth the present world.
          Science tells us today that the eternal, the timeless, is our greater reality and truth.

          It's where humanity comes from.
          Daniel 12:3, Revelation 12:4.

          We come to Christ because we believed on His word, and came to Him by faith.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by BlessedCreator View Post
            First I'd like to apologize for not answering your other post on another forum, I just get so many replies that I don't have enough time to see them all let alone respond.

            "Let us not sleep.—The metaphor here expresses not so much actual sin (Ephesians 5:14) as carelessness in spiritual and moral things. “Let us not say, ‘Peace and safety,’ and resign ourselves to indifference about Christ’s coming.” St. Paul (as always) indicates that it was possible for “children of light” to be converted back into “children of darkness.” - Ellicott commentary on 1 Thessalonians 5:6

            The word sleep meaning "carelessness in spiritual and moral things" in verse 6, but in verse 10 "Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." the terms wake or sleep mean living or dead.
            I agree with your view. Handshake.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post

              I agree with your view. Handshake.
              May I ask,

              what in this text brings you to the conclusion that we should change the "sleep [G2518]" word in verse 10 (same word in v.6)... to mean what a DIFFERENT Greek word for "sleep" means (that being G2837 -- as in 1Th4:13,14,15 speaking of the kind of "SLEEP in Jesus" that refers to the fact that they've physically "DIED," where used).

              Why change the meaning, or replace this actual word (G2518 in vv.6,10) for the other Greek word (G2837 as in 1Th4:13,14,15)?

              Same for the word "WATCH [G1127 - https://biblehub.com/greek/1127.htm ]" here (vv.6,10), which is not the same as saying "those who are ALIVE" (but has the SAME MEANING in both v.6 and v.10). Why change this? What in this text makes you think it (or they) should be changed?




              --G2518 - "sleep" 1Th5:6,10 (BOTH verses, same)

              --G2837 - "sleep [in Jesus]" 1Th4:13,14,15 (a distinct word and meaning, from that of the other one, above)



              --G1127 "watch" word (and definition) in both 1Th5:6 AND 1Th5:10 https://biblehub.com/greek/1127.htm (this word does not mean "ALIVE"... but "WATCH"... why do you believe this should be CHANGED?)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post

                Except, the phrase in v.10 is "so that, whether we WATCH[ https://biblehub.com/greek/1127.htm ] or sleep" (contrasting the two, same [two words] as in v.6! and a DISTINCT "sleep" word from that in chpt 4:13,14,15 speaking of those who DIED [sleep in death], G2837... different idea there).

                I believe the CONTEXT (of vv.6 and 10) are SAME.




                Not to be rude, or anything = ) , but what you've put here (which I bolded and underlined in your post) ^ sounds only like so much human reasoning.

                IOW, it is not really a result of "exegesis," but instead, reading your own ideas INTO it.

                Don't feel too bad though, as TONS of people do that, with this passage! = D
                So what doctrine are trying to push? That whether we are "careless in spiritual and moral things" or whether we are obedient unto God and careful of spiritual and moral things that it doesn't matter? That's what is sounds like your saying, that we can live however we want and still be saved.

                If that were true we wouldn't be warned in Matthew 7:13-16 KJB
                "13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

                14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

                15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

                16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
                "

                Also God wouldn't have warned us in Revelation 22:14-15 KJB
                "14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
                "
                If the morally corrupt are without the kingdom of God as the word of God states, then your interpretation is indeed false as I believe it is, and so does the great theologian agree with me as I quoted.
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                Comment


                • #9
                  First of all, your "Matthew 7" reference is in the CONTEXT of those entering or not entering "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (not "UP IN Heaven"), which is "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" upon His "RETURN" to the earth (at Rev19; and Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 and its PARALLELS "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal... "BLESSED" [Dan12:12; Rev16:14-16; etc etc]).

                  Secondly, way back in Rev5:9 "humans" have already said (way before the Rev19 point in the chronology) "hath redeemed US" (and they are wearing "stephanos/crowns" which Paul said he would be "awarded IN THAT DAY" (not the day of his DEATH)... So, in view of this (and so many more biblical points), I've posted the following post in the past:

                  [quoting old post]

                  Dr David Hocking showed Marv Rosenthal (I believe it was) about the manuscript evidence (re: Rev5:9-10; with v.9 saying "US" ['hast redeemed US']) had to acknowledge "agreement" [that David Hocking was right and Scripture does say that, per the manuscript evidence Hocking pointed out], but then Rosenthal proceeded to publish his already-written "pre-wrath book" anyway, despite being informed of these facts:

                  [see @ this vid:

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztQFuyWQp6c

                  (approx 9-min vid total)--note also in this video that he mentions something Geo E. Ladd [...] had said about this passage/esp verse 9]

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    See also this post:

                    https://bibleforums.org/forum/christ...71#post2714671

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post

                      May I ask,

                      what in this text brings you to the conclusion that we should change the "sleep [G2518]" word in verse 10 (same word [U]in v.6[/U])... to mean what a DIFFERENT Greek word for "sleep" means (that being G2837 -- as in 1Th4:13,14,15 speaking of the kind of "SLEEP in Jesus" that refers to the fact that they've physically "DIED," where used).

                      Why change the meaning, or replace this actual word (G2518 in vv.6,10) for the other Greek word (G2837 as in 1Th4:13,14,15)?

                      Same for the word "WATCH [G1127 - https://biblehub.com/greek/1127.htm ]" here (vv.6,10), which is not the same as saying "those who are ALIVE" (but has the SAME MEANING in both v.6 and v.10). Why change this? What in this text makes you think it (or they) should be changed?

                      --G2518 - "sleep" 1Th5:6,10 (BOTH verses, same)

                      --G2837 - "sleep [in Jesus]" 1Th4:13,14,15 (a distinct word and meaning, from that of the other one, above)

                      --G1127 "watch" word (and definition) in both 1Th5:6 AND 1Th5:10 https://biblehub.com/greek/1127.htm (this word does not mean "ALIVE"... but "WATCH"... why do you believe this should be CHANGED?)
                      Here is my take on the texts.

                      1 Thess 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
                      1 Thess 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
                      1 Thess 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.


                      As you know, context determines the meaning of every text which means that the intended meaning of a word is not always consistent. For example, Paul said in v-6 above, let us not sleep. It makes no sense to assume he was referring to death in this context given that our naturally inclination is to avoid death if we can. For argument sake, let's change 'sleep' to 'death' and see how it fits, shall we?

                      Therefore let us not die, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. This sentence is structurally wrong since we have no control over death, so Paul couldn't have been telling them not to die. If ever one is in doubt that Paul did mean death in these texts, v-7 nails the point. Does anyone believe that people only die at night since Paul said that those that sleep [die], sleep at night?

                      But in verse 10, Paul used the same word 'sleep' in a different meaning - this time, referring to death, ie whether we wake or sleep/die...we should live together with him/Christ. So 'sleep' in 1 Cor 5:10 corroborates with 1 Thess 4:13,14 and 15.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                        Except, the phrase in v.10 is "so that, whether we WATCH[ https://biblehub.com/greek/1127.htm ] or sleep" (contrasting the two, same [two words] as in v.6! and a DISTINCT "sleep" word from that in chpt 4:13,14,15 speaking of those who DIED [sleep in death], G2837... different idea there).

                        I believe the CONTEXT (of vv.6 and 10) are SAME.
                        On the contrary, it makes zero sense to argue that 1 Thess 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. AND v-10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him... is the same as I pointed out in post # 11.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                          But in verse 10, Paul used the same word 'sleep' in a different meaning - this time, referring to death, ie whether we wake or sleep/die...we should live together with him/Christ. So 'sleep' in 1 Cor 5:10 corroborates with 1 Thess 4:13,14 and 15.
                          Except, the word in bold ^ (that I've bolded in your post) is "WATCH [G1127]" .

                          So how are you saying that it is to contrast the two (the two items in this verse 10), to have it say, "[so that] whether we WATCH [G1127] or whether we DIE [/sleep]" ? (which "sleep [G2837]" word, by the way, Paul could've easily used, but did not, here).



                          IOW, "[so that] whether we WATCH or whether we DIE"... how are the two a "contrast" to each other, here?




                          [just as the two are a "contrast" to each other in verse 6, where these identical two words are used, as a contrast TO EACH OTHER]


                          ____________

                          P.S. I see other passages where "live" [/'life'] and "die" are contrasted: ex. Romans 14:8; Phil1:20, Phil1:21; Ruth 2:20

                          ... but I do not see any passage where "WATCH [G1127]" is contrasted with "die [/death / dead]" (unless I'm missing them).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                            Except, the word in bold ^ (that I've bolded in your post) is "WATCH [G1127]" .

                            So how are you saying that it is to contrast the two (the two items in this verse 10), to have it say, "[so that] whether we WATCH [G1127] or whether we DIE [/sleep]" ? (which "sleep [G2837]" word, by the way, Paul could've easily used, but did not, here).

                            IOW, "[so that] whether we WATCH or whether we DIE"... how are the two a "contrast" to each other, here?

                            just as the two are a "contrast" to each other in verse 6, where these identical two words are used, as a contrast TO EACH OTHER]
                            ____________

                            P.S. I see other passages where "live" [/'life'] and "die" are contrasted: ex. Romans 14:8; Phil1:20, Phil1:21; Ruth 2:20

                            ... but I do not see any passage where "WATCH [G1127]" is contrasted with "die [/death / dead]" (unless I'm missing them).
                            I'm not seeing any consistency in your argument. You started out querying yesterday why the word "sleep" in 1 Thess 5:6 & 10 should not be interpreted as having the same meaning in their respective passages. And I showed why it is contextually impossible to arrive at such a conclusion. But in your response, instead of conceding that you erred, you conveniently ignored your previous point of contention to move to another word "wake" (v-10). Well, for what it's worth, I concur that 'wake and watch' are a fitting synonym in the sentence. But that wasn't your objection yesterday, was it?

                            Please go back and take another look at your question because your revised contention today "whether we WATCH or whether we DIE"... how are the two a "contrast" to each other, here?" is not the same question.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Trivalee View Post
                              I'm not seeing any consistency in your argument. You started out querying yesterday why the word "sleep" in 1 Thess 5:6 & 10 should not be interpreted as having the same meaning in their respective passages.
                              Allow me to clarify.

                              I'm not asking that.

                              I'm saying, we should NOT change the word "sleep [G2518]" (in vv.6,10) to the word "sleep [G2837]" BECAUSE the OTHER two Greek words I pointed out ("sleep [G2518]" and "watch [G1127]") are the IDENTICAL WORDS in both verses.

                              So, when I said, "Why change the meaning, or replace this actual word (G2518 in vv.6,10) ...," I mean, WHY ARE YOU changing it (the posters in this thread that disagreed with what I've presented).



                              I'm saying that there is NO CONTEXTUAL *REASON* to change it, BECAUSE the two words (in EACH of these 2 verses, v.6 and v.10) are CONTRASTED with the OTHER (i.e. against each other, telling of OPPOSITE THINGS... "CONTRASTED").

                              But this is NOT the case with "WATCH and DIE" [IF *that* (sleep/DIE) were the interpretation, as you say]

                              ("WATCH [G1127]" IS the one word being CONTRASTED with the other; the word is NOT "LIVE/LIFE/ALIVE/LIVING" but "WATCH [G1127]").



                              I'm building the CASE *why* the interpretation you are taking (and, in the post under present discussion, mainly that which the other poster in this thread was taking) cannot be derived from THIS ACTUAL TEXT... what this TEXT is actually conveying.

                              It is not conveying "so that, whether ye LIVE or DIE/sleep..." . Not that.

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