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  • #16
    Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post

    Allow me to clarify.

    I'm not asking that.

    I'm saying, we should NOT change the word "sleep [G2518]" (in vv.6,10) to the word "sleep [G2837]" BECAUSE the OTHER two Greek words I pointed out ("sleep [G2518]" and "watch [G1127]") are the IDENTICAL WORDS in both verses.

    So, when I said, "Why change the meaning, or replace this actual word (G2518 in vv.6,10) ...," I mean, WHY ARE YOU changing it (the posters in this thread that disagreed with what I've presented).


    I'm saying that there is NO CONTEXTUAL *REASON* to change it, BECAUSE the two words (in EACH of these 2 verses, v.6 and v.10) are CONTRASTED with the OTHER (i.e. against each other, telling of OPPOSITE THINGS... "CONTRASTED").

    But this is NOT the case with "WATCH and DIE" [IF *that* (sleep/DIE) were the interpretation, as you say]

    ("WATCH [G1127]" IS the one word being CONTRASTED with the other; the word is NOT "LIVE/LIFE/ALIVE/LIVING" but "WATCH [G1127]").


    I'm building the CASE *why* the interpretation you are taking (and, in the post under present discussion, mainly that which the other poster in this thread was taking) cannot be derived from THIS ACTUAL TEXT... what this TEXT is actually conveying.

    It is not conveying "so that, whether ye LIVE or DIE/sleep..." . Not that.
    You've lost me and I fear this has become a conundrum that I can't figure out. My first understanding of what you asked about has since metamorphosed into something I can't recognise anymore. And the way you write doesn't help matters either - instead of clarity, it creates more confusion.

    Thanks, brother.

    Comment


    • #17
      [double post... see below]

      Comment


      • #18
        Okay, thanks Trivalee. I'll just put this here for the readers (in hopes of clarifying, in one simple sentence):

        The word for "sleep" HERE in this passage cannot mean "sleep-in-DEATH" because it is contrasted with "WATCH" (not "LIVE/ALIVE")






        [also, this passage is addressed to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," i.e. all those saved "in this present age [singular]," aka the "betrothed" (not the "guests [plural]," and not the "10 [or 5 (plural)] Virgins/Bridesmaids" that pertain to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [/earthly MK]" instead, etc)]

        Comment


        • #19
          I think you're wrong. Are you not ultimately making an attack on the truth of the doctrine of salvation, saying that we can be "careless in spiritual and moral things" and still be saved.
          When God's word is clear that hypocrites, lukewarm, unprofitable servants and those that commit iniquity will perish.
          If you'd like to check out my ministry click the About Me tab in my profile for more details.

          Comment


          • #20
            Faith means to have trust/confidence in God.
            You can't have trust in God without having a good conscience toward God.
            You can't have a good conscious toward God without obeying Him.
            Believing in Jesus is the first commandment of God we are told to obey.
            There are many other commandments we must live in obedience unto if we desire to be saved.

            We are told in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJB
            "9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
            10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

            We see just from those 2 verses alone that there is a standard of righteous and holy living that God requires of us if we are to be counted worthy.
            That is what is being spoken of in James 2:26 where it says faith without works is dead.

            The works are not any righteous or holy works of our own, but of God. The works are the will of God, told to us through the commandments and precepts taught in the Holy Bible.

            Without obedience unto God's will, your faith is dead, you are not living a holy life, and you will not see the Lord.

            Hebrews 12:14 KJB
            "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: "
            If you'd like to check out my ministry click the About Me tab in my profile for more details.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by BlessedCreator View Post
              Faith means to have trust/confidence in God.
              You can't have trust in God without having a good conscience toward God.
              You can't have a good conscious toward God without obeying Him.
              Believing in Jesus is the first commandment of God we are told to obey.
              Faith that saves trusts in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. In Acts 16:31, we read - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and you're household." Why do so many people make this hard? That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for many people to ACCEPT.

              There are many other commandments we must live in obedience unto if we desire to be saved.
              Salvation by works.

              We are told in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJB
              "9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
              10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
              Notice that verse 9 says the unrighteous (not the righteous) shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Those who practice those sins. (Galatians 5:19-21) In 1 Corinthians 6:11, we read - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

              We see just from those 2 verses alone that there is a standard of righteous and holy living that God requires of us if we are to be counted worthy.
              We must not confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. We are not saved based on the merits of our performance, yet you seem to confidently (and self righteously) believe otherwise.

              That is what is being spoken of in James 2:26 where it says faith without works is dead.
              "Faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree). James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. We show our faith by our works. (James 2:18) If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. A living faith produces works and not the other way around.

              In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

              The works are not any righteous or holy works of our own, but of God. The works are the will of God, told to us through the commandments and precepts taught in the Holy Bible.
              Yet man is not passive in producing these works and we are not saved by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

              Without obedience unto God's will, your faith is dead, you are not living a holy life, and you will not see the Lord.
              John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day

              Hebrews 12:14 KJB
              "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: "
              I often hear works-salvationists cite Hebrews 12:14 (especially Roman Catholics) and imply this means that if our personal holiness does not measure up, then we will not be saved. The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. *Without justification, there is no sanctification.

              To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

              In the very next verse (Hebrews 12:15) we read - looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God.. The NASB reads - ..comes short of the grace of God.. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God.. We are justified by faith and have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:1,2) Seeking salvation by works is falling short of the grace of God. If it be of works then grace is no longer grace.
              Last edited by mailmandan; May 30th 2020, 12:25 PM.
              Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by BlessedCreator View Post
                I think you're wrong. Are you not ultimately making an attack on the truth of the doctrine of salvation, saying that we can be "careless in spiritual and moral things" and still be saved.
                When God's word is clear that hypocrites, lukewarm, unprofitable servants and those that commit iniquity will perish.
                Which post did you respond to, please?

                Comment


                • #23
                  I updated the original post and removed the part about 1 Peter 3:21 concerning baptism and having a good conscience toward God. My interpretation of that verse was off therefore I removed it. But we do still need to continue in obedience to God and His will to have a good conscience toward Him. Also I added a link at the bottom of the original post which will take you to a PDF of the complete KJB.
                  If you'd like to check out my ministry click the About Me tab in my profile for more details.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by BlessedCreator View Post
                    I updated the original post and removed the part about 1 Peter 3:21 concerning baptism and having a good conscience toward God. My interpretation of that verse was off therefore I removed it. But we do still need to continue in obedience to God and His will to have a good conscience toward Him. Also I added a link at the bottom of the original post which will take you to a PDF of the complete KJB.
                    Okay. Thanks for clarifying.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
                      First of all, your "Matthew 7" reference is in the CONTEXT of those entering or not entering "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (not "UP IN Heaven"), which is "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" upon His "RETURN" to the earth (at Rev19; and Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 and its PARALLELS "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal... "BLESSED" [Dan12:12; Rev16:14-16; etc etc]).

                      Secondly, way back in Rev5:9 "humans" have already said (way before the Rev19 point in the chronology) "hath redeemed US" (and they are wearing "stephanos/crowns" which Paul said he would be "awarded IN THAT DAY" (not the day of his DEATH)... So, in view of this (and so many more biblical points), I've posted the following post in the past:

                      [quoting old post]

                      Dr David Hocking showed Marv Rosenthal (I believe it was) about the manuscript evidence (re: Rev5:9-10; with v.9 saying "US" ['hast redeemed US']) had to acknowledge "agreement" [that David Hocking was right and Scripture does say that, per the manuscript evidence Hocking pointed out], but then Rosenthal proceeded to publish his already-written "pre-wrath book" anyway, despite being informed of these facts:

                      [see @ this vid:

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztQFuyWQp6c

                      (approx 9-min vid total)--note also in this video that he mentions something Geo E. Ladd [...] had said about this passage/esp verse 9]


                      Would you please explain how these two are connected?

                      1. "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" upon His "RETURN" to the earth

                      2. (Mt.7:13.14)




                      If you are referring to (Rev.20) it does not mention the following things.

                      Christ coming
                      Establishment of a kingdom
                      Earthly reign
                      Bodily reign
                      Throne of David
                      Jews being gathered to Jerusalem



                      The Lords Kingdom (or church) was established in (Acts 2:38,47).

                      Some were added to the kingdom in the first century according to (Col.1:13).

                      13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:





                      Thanks








                      22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth... (1Peter 1:22)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
                        Faith that saves trusts in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. In Acts 16:31, we read - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and you're household." Why do so many people make this hard? That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for many people to ACCEPT.

                        Salvation by works.

                        Notice that verse 9 says the unrighteous (not the righteous) shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Those who practice those sins. (Galatians 5:19-21) In 1 Corinthians 6:11, we read - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

                        We must not confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. We are not saved based on the merits of our performance, yet you seem to confidently (and self righteously) believe otherwise.

                        "Faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree). James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. We show our faith by our works. (James 2:18) If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. A living faith produces works and not the other way around.

                        In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

                        Yet man is not passive in producing these works and we are not saved by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

                        John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day

                        I often hear works-salvationists cite Hebrews 12:14 (especially Roman Catholics) and imply this means that if our personal holiness does not measure up, then we will not be saved. The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. *Without justification, there is no sanctification.

                        To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

                        In the very next verse (Hebrews 12:15) we read - looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God.. The NASB reads - ..comes short of the grace of God.. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God.. We are justified by faith and have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:1,2) Seeking salvation by works is falling short of the grace of God. If it be of works then grace is no longer grace.
                        Why would you stop in the middle of reading the account of the jailer in (Acts 16:30-34)?

                        Why not read all of the account.

                        Please tell me why they were out in the dark, after midnight, looking for water to be immersed in?

                        I think it will be b/c of what (1Peter 3:20,21) (Mark 16:15,16) (Gal. 3:27) (Rom.6:3-6) (1Peter 1:22,23) (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40) teaches.



                        Belief itself is a work according to (Jn 6:28,29).



                        You posted (Eph.2:8).

                        They were - quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (2:1)

                        They were - quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved (2:5)

                        They were - raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus2:6)



                        Let's go to (Acts 19) and read about the Ephesians account of being saved by grace.

                        2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

                        The Ephesians were baptized in water twice.



                        Mailmandan said - "
                        . We are not saved based on the merits of our performance, yet you seem to confidently (and self righteously) believe otherwise."


                        God said - 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth (1Peter 1:22,)

                        God said - Save yourselves from this untoward generation. (Acts 2:40)

                        God said - 21 but he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. [/FONT](Jn 3:19-21)








                        Thanks
                        22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth... (1Peter 1:22)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by BlessedCreator View Post
                          I updated the original post and removed the part about 1 Peter 3:21 concerning baptism and having a good conscience toward God. My interpretation of that verse was off therefore I removed it. But we do still need to continue in obedience to God and His will to have a good conscience toward Him. Also I added a link at the bottom of the original post which will take you to a PDF of the complete KJB.
                          Please give me an idea as to why you removed (1Peter 3:20,21) if you do not mind.
                          22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth... (1Peter 1:22)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
                            Faith that saves trusts in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. In Acts 16:31, we read - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and you're household." Why do so many people make this hard? That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for many people to ACCEPT.

                            Salvation by works.

                            Notice that verse 9 says the unrighteous (not the righteous) shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Those who practice those sins. (Galatians 5:19-21) In 1 Corinthians 6:11, we read - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

                            We must not confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. We are not saved based on the merits of our performance, yet you seem to confidently (and self righteously) believe otherwise.

                            "Faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree). James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. We show our faith by our works. (James 2:18) If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. A living faith produces works and not the other way around.

                            In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

                            Yet man is not passive in producing these works and we are not saved by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

                            John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day

                            I often hear works-salvationists cite Hebrews 12:14 (especially Roman Catholics) and imply this means that if our personal holiness does not measure up, then we will not be saved. The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. *Without justification, there is no sanctification.

                            To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

                            In the very next verse (Hebrews 12:15) we read - looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God.. The NASB reads - ..comes short of the grace of God.. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God.. We are justified by faith and have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:1,2) Seeking salvation by works is falling short of the grace of God. If it be of works then grace is no longer grace.
                            It's interesting to note that (Rom.6:17-18) teaches one must obey something BEFORE ones sins are cleansed.

                            16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


                            What did they obey? ----> (Rom.6:3-6) earlier in the same chapter.


                            3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


                            Notice newness of life comes at the point of a burial and a raising up (out of the water) (Rom.6:3-6). (Acts 8:38,39).

                            they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water,




                            Thanks
                            22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth... (1Peter 1:22)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Nova2216 View Post

                              It's interesting to note that (Rom.6:17-18) teaches one must obey something BEFORE ones sins are cleansed.

                              16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
                              Works-salvationists typically ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" in Romans 6:16 and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience that "follow" saving faith in Christ are "unto righteousness," as if we are saved by works. Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.

                              There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

                              Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is really a synonym for BELIEVING the gospel. Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

                              Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

                              Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.


                              What did they obey? ----> (Rom.6:3-6) earlier in the same chapter.
                              The gospel by choosing to believe the gospel unto righteousness, which is followed by water baptism.


                              3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
                              Works-salvationists typically confuse Spirit baptism (reality) with water baptism (picture of the reality). In Romans 6:4, the phrase "buried with Him through baptism," seems to support the idea that baptism is the instrumental cause of justification. However, even here baptism could be understood as the sign of justification. It's not unusual in Scripture to call the reality by the name of its sign. Paul says that all Christians are circumcised (even though one may not be physically circumcised) - meaning that they possess what circumcision signifies (Romans 4:11; Philippians 3:3). Using this kind of language, Paul can speak of the reality of the believers’ spiritual union with Christ, and the benefits which flow from that union, in terms of baptism, its sign.

                              Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification" (Romans 4:24,25). Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by FAITH. *Hermeneutics.

                              Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by immersing the new believer in and out of the water.

                              Notice newness of life comes at the point of a burial and a raising up (out of the water) (Rom.6:3-6). (Acts 8:38,39).
                              Spirit baptism is the reality, which takes place the moment that we believe the gospel BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18) and water baptism is the picture of the reality.

                              they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water,
                              Acts 8:36 - Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” John 20:31 - but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. *What happened to baptism? *Also, what happened to baptism in John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26?
                              Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Nova2216 View Post

                                Why would you stop in the middle of reading the account of the jailer in (Acts 16:30-34)?

                                Why not read all of the account.
                                Reading the entire account does not change the fact that verse 31 clearly states - "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.." *Notice they DID NOT SAY - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and get water baptized and you will be saved. Water baptism "followed" believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and becoming saved.

                                Please tell me why they were out in the dark, after midnight, looking for water to be immersed in?
                                Because there were new converts who believed and were saved that were ready to be water baptized.

                                I think it will be b/c of what (1Peter 3:20,21) (Mark 16:15,16) (Gal. 3:27) (Rom.6:3-6) (1Peter 1:22,23) (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40) teaches.
                                You really place a heavy emphasis on water baptism for salvation. Do you attend the church of Christ? (Campbellism)

                                In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

                                *Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE in the ARK. In contrast, ONLY the WICKED in Noah's day came in CONTACT WITH THE WATER and they all perished.

                                Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

                                If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

                                In regards to Galatians 3:27, in Galatians 3:26, we read - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (Period.) *Not through faith and water baptism. Also read John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. *Received Him, given the right to become children of God, through believing in His name, not through water baptism.

                                Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on/clothed yourself with Christ. The Greek word for "put on" is"enduo" and means to enclose oneself in, as when one "puts on" clothes or armor or some other item. Involved in this is the idea of "imitation" and "identification." Just as 1 Corinthians 10:2 says that all (the Israelites) were "baptized into Moses" in the cloud and in the sea, but this does not mean they were literally water baptized into the body of Moses.

                                So how does one "put on" Christ in baptism? Is it because one becomes a "child of God" through water baptism? NO. Is Paul saying that we become children of God by water baptism as much as children of God by faith in Christ? NO.

                                "Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light...put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof" (Romans 13:12,14). This exhortation is written to Christians (those already saved). Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if "put on" Christ means saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts in order to be saved as well (Romans 13:14). Right? NO. This exhortation is to those ALREADY SAVED.

                                I already explained Romans 6:3-6 in my previous post. Compare 1 Peter 1:22 with Romans 10:16 and Acts 15:9. Simon the sorcerer in Samaria is said to have “believed and was baptized” at the preaching of Philip (Acts 8:13) but later, when Simon offers the apostles money to have their ability to impart the Holy Spirit (verses 18–19), he is rebuked by Peter. Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. (verses 20-21) Even though we read that Simon "believed," the remainder of the verse hints at the true object of his belief: "the miracles and signs which were done." No saving belief in Christ. Not all belief is unto salvation, as we see in James 2:19. There are different levels of belief, and different objects of belief, and not all that’s called "belief" is saving belief in Christ. We could discuss that further if you like.

                                Belief itself is a work according to (Jn 6:28,29).
                                Believing is clearly not a work that merits salvation. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). So believing is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Paul clearly stated that we are saved through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) not faith and works.

                                You posted (Eph.2:8).

                                They were - quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (2:1)

                                They were - quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved (2:5)

                                They were - raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus2:6)
                                Yes and all by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:5-9)

                                Let's go to (Acts 19) and read about the Ephesians account of being saved by grace.
                                Wow! You are absolutely obsessed with water baptism. You seem to have more faith in water baptism to save you than you do in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ to save you, which reveals the true object of your faith and it's not CHRIST ALONE.

                                2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

                                The Ephesians were [B]baptized in water twice.
                                In Acts 19:2, Paul asked these disciples of John if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verses 2-3 reveals that they had not yet believed in Christ unto salvation. They had not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit and they received the baptism of John, but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving belief in Christ, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (just as hands were laid on the Samaritans before receiving the Holy Spirit in Acts 8:16-17 and there was a reason for that) which is the exception, not the rule.

                                God said - 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth (1Peter 1:22,)
                                Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Acts 15:9 - and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

                                God said - Save yourselves from this untoward generation. (Acts 2:40)
                                Save yourselves from this untoward generation, not save yourself by works. Jesus saves by grace through faith.

                                God said - 21 but he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. [/FONT](Jn 3:19-21)
                                John 3:21 (AMPC) - But he who practices truth [who does what is right] comes out into the Light; so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are—wrought with God [divinely prompted, done with God’s help, in dependence upon Him]. Seeking salvation by works does not represent practicing truth or coming into the Light.
                                Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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