Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

evidence for God not enough....

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • evidence for God not enough....

    well, i ran into this the other day. after saying that there's more evidence for God than for not, he said "that still doesn't mean anything, just because we have evidence doesn't prove it." which makes sence i guess. then i said the evidence you require doesn't exist, in so many words....

    also, after i said God was eternal he said "he couldn't be, nothing can be."
    so i had nothing.

    yup.

  • #2
    Originally posted by ilovemetal View Post
    also, after i said God was eternal he said "he couldn't be, nothing can be."
    And he knows this how?

    Comment


    • #3
      How does he think the universe came into being?
      sigpic

      Comment


      • #4
        yes. good questions. had i thought of them at the time i could answer.

        and this is why i'm the worst apologist ever.

        Comment


        • #5
          Don't be too hard on yourself--most of us, if we had to come up with answers to these off the tops of our heads, would flounder as well. That's why it's important to really dig into your beliefs and know not only what you believe, but why you believe it.

          If your friend believes that nothing is eternal, he has a huge problem. There are only 4 possibilities for the universe that I know of (maybe someone can come up with another):
          • It has always existed. The second law of thermodynamics militates against this, because the universe would have essentially died of heat loss (an extreme oversimplification) an eternity ago.
          • The universe sprang into existence from nothing. Here you're defying the first law of thermodynamics, that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, but merely pass from one form to another. It is logically impossible that "nothing" can beget "something".
          • The universe is an illusion and doesn't really exist (apparently there are actually people who hold this belief).
          • The universe was created. If this is the case, either its creator has to be eternal, or the creator has to have a creator who is eternal, or THAT creator has a creator....ad infinitum. Working backwards, you eventually have to have something that is eternal and outside the bounds of physics. This in no way contradicts logic.

          Comment


          • #6
            ilovemetal,

            Precious few people are argued into the kingdom of heaven. When you debate these things with people, at best you're giving them something to think about. But (at least in my experience), nobody seriously considers Christ until their life needs a big dose of Him.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by zombieCat View Post
              Don't be too hard on yourself--most of us, if we had to come up with answers to these off the tops of our heads, would flounder as well. That's why it's important to really dig into your beliefs and know not only what you believe, but why you believe it.

              If your friend believes that nothing is eternal, he has a huge problem. There are only 4 possibilities for the universe that I know of (maybe someone can come up with another):
              • It has always existed. The second law of thermodynamics militates against this, because the universe would have essentially died of heat loss (an extreme oversimplification) an eternity ago.
              • The universe sprang into existence from nothing. Here you're defying the first law of thermodynamics, that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, but merely pass from one form to another. It is logically impossible that "nothing" can beget "something".
              • The universe is an illusion and doesn't really exist (apparently there are actually people who hold this belief).
              • The universe was created. If this is the case, either its creator has to be eternal, or the creator has to have a creator who is eternal, or THAT creator has a creator....ad infinitum. Working backwards, you eventually have to have something that is eternal and outside the bounds of physics. This in no way contradicts logic.
              yes. totally good. thanks. yeah i've been reading apologetics for months. like big time, but my problem is i can't remeber things...so.....

              these are good points. i also have one to add.

              *the Kalam Cosmological Argument:

              1. an infinite number of days has no end.
              2. but today is the end day of history (history being a collection of all days.)
              3. Therefore, there were not an infinite number of days before today (i.e., time had a beginning)


              *from page 91- "i don't have enough faith to be an athiest" by Geisler and Turek

              man, if only i was smart. oh well.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ilovemetal View Post
                well, i ran into this the other day. after saying that there's more evidence for God than for not, he said "that still doesn't mean anything, just because we have evidence doesn't prove it." which makes sence i guess. then i said the evidence you require doesn't exist, in so many words....

                also, after i said God was eternal he said "he couldn't be, nothing can be."
                so i had nothing.

                yup.
                He cannot make such an absolute statement, unless he possesses all knowledge of the universe. That should stump him.

                For example (some may have heard this before)....here is an absolute statement: 'There is no gold in China.' Now for me to make this statement, I would have to have 100% knowledge of China - every square inch of land, all people, their possessions, etc. Now if I were to say, 'There is gold in China.'....I would NOT have to have 100% knowledge of China. I would only need to know that gold exists somewhere in China, such as a jewelry store.

                The burden of proof lies with your friend. We already have enough proof that God exists.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by HisLeast View Post
                  ilovemetal,

                  Precious few people are argued into the kingdom of heaven. When you debate these things with people, at best you're giving them something to think about. But (at least in my experience), nobody seriously considers Christ until their life needs a big dose of Him.
                  yeah. sadly i don't think it will happen. i do pray for him. maybe one day though he'll see how nothing brings him happiness. makes my heart break for these people.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sold Out View Post
                    He cannot make such an absolute statement, unless he possesses all knowledge of the universe. That should stump him.

                    For example (some may have heard this before)....here is an absolute statement: 'There is no gold in China.' Now for me to make this statement, I would have to have 100% knowledge of China - every square inch of land, all people, their possessions, etc. Now if I were to say, 'There is gold in China.'....I would NOT have to have 100% knowledge of China. I would only need to know that gold exists somewhere in China, such as a jewelry store.

                    The burden of proof lies with your friend. We already have enough proof that God exists.
                    that's a goodie. yeah i've listened to some talks on realitivism and contradicting statments. arg. anyways....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ilovemetal View Post
                      well, i ran into this the other day. after saying that there's more evidence for God than for not, he said "that still doesn't mean anything, just because we have evidence doesn't prove it." which makes sence i guess. then i said the evidence you require doesn't exist, in so many words....

                      also, after i said God was eternal he said "he couldn't be, nothing can be."
                      so i had nothing.

                      yup.
                      I think with some people, even if God personally appeared to them, they still would not believe in His existence.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ilovemetal View Post
                        yeah. sadly i don't think it will happen. i do pray for him. maybe one day though he'll see how nothing brings him happiness. makes my heart break for these people.
                        Well man, just keep on keepin' on. Pay attention to your walk, in good times and in bad. Some day, your friend may fall on hard times. When he does, he may think about your approach to life and what makes you so different. Its in these times that people's hearts are most open. When they have full bellies, warm houses, and all the leisure time in the world to discount the possibility of God... not so much.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by lendtay View Post
                          I think with some people, even if God personally appeared to them, they still would not believe in His existence.
                          yup.


                          Originally posted by HisLeast View Post
                          Well man, just keep on keepin' on. Pay attention to your walk, in good times and in bad. Some day, your friend may fall on hard times. When he does, he may think about your approach to life and what makes you so different. Its in these times that people's hearts are most open. When they have full bellies, warm houses, and all the leisure time in the world to discount the possibility of God... not so much.
                          yeah. i try to keep on my toes. i generally have a good attitude towards life too, which helps. unless i'm mad. then i'm brutal.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ilovemetal View Post
                            well, i ran into this the other day. after saying that there's more evidence for God than for not, he said "that still doesn't mean anything, just because we have evidence doesn't prove it." which makes sence i guess. then i said the evidence you require doesn't exist, in so many words....

                            also, after i said God was eternal he said "he couldn't be, nothing can be."
                            so i had nothing.

                            yup.
                            It's true that evidence never "proves" anything in a 100% sense. In fact, nothing in this world can be proven 100% (not even that statement or this qualifier to that statement). It could very well be that I'm a figment of your imagination that's saying "nothing can be proven 100%." Now all the evidence points against this being the case, but it can't be proven 100%.

                            When we speak of "proof of God" we are merely speaking of the evidence. The evidence gives justification for believing in God - in fact, one can even have belief in God without evidence (via warrant - see Alvin Plantinga's Warranted Christian Beliefs).

                            As for "nothing can be eternal" - the flip-side to this is nothing can be infinitely regressive then. If x is infinitely regressive then it is eternal by default. Therefore, there has to be an absolute beginning to everything. This would mean that at one point there was nothing. We must then explain how something came from nothing (which logically cannot happen, it's a fallacy). The only way to explain that there is something here now is to accept that somewhere down the line there was another something that caused this something. That "another something" would have to be eternal, or at least outside of time.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ilovemetal View Post
                              yes. totally good. thanks. yeah i've been reading apologetics for months. like big time, but my problem is i can't remeber things...so.....

                              these are good points. i also have one to add.

                              *the Kalam Cosmological Argument:

                              1. an infinite number of days has no end.
                              2. but today is the end day of history (history being a collection of all days.)
                              3. Therefore, there were not an infinite number of days before today (i.e., time had a beginning)


                              *from page 91- "i don't have enough faith to be an athiest" by Geisler and Turek

                              man, if only i was smart. oh well.
                              I would suggest learning everything you can about evidence for the resurrection. There is a very good reason that all of what we believe as Christians hinges on the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:14). There is too much evidence for the physical resurrection of Christ to be ignored. A good book to read as a start would be More Than A Carpenter, by Josh McDowell. It is a quick read, but to the point.

                              ServantoftheKing

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X