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  • Discussion The Origin of Sin?

    I'm having a little trouble wrapping my brain around the origin of sin. I know that God is perfect, and I know that all He created (initially) was perfect. I know that "through one man sin entered the world [Adam]), blah blah. I know all that. But how was it possible for sin to enter a perfect creation? How did it come into existence since God didn't "create" it?

  • #2
    Originally posted by *Hope* View Post
    I'm having a little trouble wrapping my brain around the origin of sin. I know that God is perfect, and I know that all He created (initially) was perfect. I know that "through one man sin entered the world [Adam]), blah blah. I know all that. But how was it possible for sin to enter a perfect creation? How did it come into existence since God didn't "create" it?
    Because He made us with the ability to choose. That was part of the perfection of the Creation.
    ----------------------------------------------
    When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

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    • #3
      If we cannot choose, then we are not free. If we are not free, then we are just Gods puppets. He does not want puppets. He wants people who can love Him as He loves us.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by *Hope* View Post
        I'm having a little trouble wrapping my brain around the origin of sin. I know that God is perfect, and I know that all He created (initially) was perfect. I know that "through one man sin entered the world [Adam]), blah blah. I know all that. But how was it possible for sin to enter a perfect creation? How did it come into existence since God didn't "create" it?
        Sin is not a thing. It is an act and an attitude. It is something that can only result from someone who has free will making a free will choice or freely taking up an attitude of their own free will.

        God created man as a being with free will. Thus He created the possibility of sin. But it was man who used the gift of free will so as to rebel against God. God made man with free will so that he could freely love God and his fellowman. Man chose rather to love himself.

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        • #5
          I understand free will. That's not what I'm questioning here. What I'm saying is...wouldn't a good and perfect God create a good and perfect will? If the answer is no, then He created something less than perfect and He is not fully good. If the answer is yes, then the will is not fully good...thus God is again, not fully good. See the dilemma?

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          • #6
            The problem is with your understanding of "perfect." Were Adam and Eve ontologically perfect in every sense of the word? No, for if this were so they couldn't have sinned. Instead, "perfect" means they are morally perfect. Notice that God doesn't say perfect, because in the strictest sense, He is the only perfect being in existence. Adam and Eve had limitations, such as they couldn't fly, couldn't create ex nihilo, and so forth. Furthermore, they were capable of violating their nature (whereas God is not).

            The perfection simply refers to the fact that they met the required standard of God upon completion of their creation. This means that they were given a will to choose and anytime this will is allowed, even in a perfect being (so long as that being is allowed to negate his own nature), there is a chance of sin.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by apothanein kerdos View Post
              The problem is with your understanding of "perfect." Were Adam and Eve ontologically perfect in every sense of the word? No, for if this were so they couldn't have sinned. Instead, "perfect" means they are morally perfect.
              Okay, I understand your first point. If they had been ontologically perfect they would've been gods. So I understand that. However, even "morally perfect" would seem to imply moral perfection...i.e. how can something "morally perfect" become "morally imperfect"? Doesn't the very possibility to become corrupt imply that there was in imperfection that existed already?

              Notice that God doesn't say perfect, because in the strictest sense, He is the only perfect being in existence. Adam and Eve had limitations, such as they couldn't fly, couldn't create ex nihilo, and so forth. Furthermore, they were capable of violating their nature (whereas God is not).
              He does say "good" though. He saw His creation and it met His approval. To "violate their nature" means they had this capability (like you said). I'm asking how does this "capability to sin" exist within something "morally perfect". Moral perfection would seem to include the inability to be immoral. Obviously it doesn't, but I'm wondering how.

              The perfection simply refers to the fact that they met the required standard of God upon completion of their creation. This means that they were given a will to choose and anytime this will is allowed, even in a perfect being (so long as that being is allowed to negate his own nature), there is a chance of sin.
              This all helps to a point. My problem is this: why would a good/perfect God create morally perfect beings in such a way that the capacity to violate itself exists? Were angels created with this same capacity?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by *Hope* View Post
                Okay, I understand your first point. If they had been ontologically perfect they would've been gods. So I understand that. However, even "morally perfect" would seem to imply moral perfection...i.e. how can something "morally perfect" become "morally imperfect"? Doesn't the very possibility to become corrupt imply that there was in imperfection that existed already?



                He does say "good" though. He saw His creation and it met His approval. To "violate their nature" means they had this capability (like you said). I'm asking how does this "capability to sin" exist within something "morally perfect". Moral perfection would seem to include the inability to be immoral. Obviously it doesn't, but I'm wondering how.



                This all helps to a point. My problem is this: why would a good/perfect God create morally perfect beings in such a way that the capacity to violate itself exists? Were angels created with this same capacity?
                Hi Hope,

                Where does the Scripture say the creation was perfect?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                  Hi Hope,

                  Where does the Scripture say the creation was perfect?
                  I'm in the middle of watching football so I'll give the short answer, lol. After God created, He declared it "good". This means God gave it His approval. It met God's standard. Nothing less than perfect is acceptable to God. He would not declare anything imperfect as "good".

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by *Hope* View Post
                    I'm in the middle of watching football so I'll give the short answer, lol. After God created, He declared it "good". This means God gave it His approval. It met God's standard. Nothing less than perfect is acceptable to God. He would not declare anything imperfect as "good".

                    OK, this is an opinion unless you can show it from Scripture. God declared several people righteous, however they were not perfect.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                      OK, this is an opinion unless you can show it from Scripture. God declared several people righteous, however they were not perfect.
                      God is perfect and His standards are perfect.

                      "Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good." - Gen. 1:31

                      Every single thing that God had created met His approval. He was satisfied. God, in His perfection, is not capable of creating anything less than perfection. It would violate His nature to do so. Thus, it is historically understood that the original creation was perfect (without sin). There were competing beliefs during biblical times regarding creation (the most notable were the Gnostics). The Gnostics believed that the material world was not only imperfect, but inherently flawed and sinful. Their beliefs were vehemently refuted by Paul in numerous scriptures. Their misunderstanding of creation ultimately led to a warped view of Christ (denying His Diety) because He became part of the 'material world'.

                      Anyway, I digress. This topic is not intended to be a debate about whether or not God's creation was perfect. Please feel free to begin your own topic if you wish to discuss that issue further. Thanks.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by *Hope* View Post
                        God is perfect and His standards are perfect.

                        "Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good." - Gen. 1:31

                        Every single thing that God had created met His approval. He was satisfied. God, in His perfection, is not capable of creating anything less than perfection. It would violate His nature to do so. Thus, it is historically understood that the original creation was perfect (without sin). There were competing beliefs during biblical times regarding creation (the most notable were the Gnostics). The Gnostics believed that the material world was not only imperfect, but inherently flawed and sinful. Their beliefs were vehemently refuted by Paul in numerous scriptures. Their misunderstanding of creation ultimately led to a warped view of Christ (denying His Diety) because He became part of the 'material world'.

                        Anyway, I digress. This topic is not intended to be a debate about whether or not God's creation was perfect. Please feel free to begin your own topic if you wish to discuss that issue further. Thanks.
                        Standards for what? The Scripture says God said it was good. Where did He say it was perfect?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by *Hope* View Post
                          God is perfect and His standards are perfect.

                          "Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good." - Gen. 1:31

                          Every single thing that God had created met His approval. He was satisfied. God, in His perfection, is not capable of creating anything less than perfection. It would violate His nature to do so. Thus, it is historically understood that the original creation was perfect (without sin). There were competing beliefs during biblical times regarding creation (the most notable were the Gnostics). The Gnostics believed that the material world was not only imperfect, but inherently flawed and sinful. Their beliefs were vehemently refuted by Paul in numerous scriptures. Their misunderstanding of creation ultimately led to a warped view of Christ (denying His Diety) because He became part of the 'material world'.

                          Anyway, I digress. This topic is not intended to be a debate about whether or not God's creation was perfect. Please feel free to begin your own topic if you wish to discuss that issue further. Thanks.
                          Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the part and parcel of your OP is the question of imperfection coming out of perfection? If this is the case, then part of the question itself can justifiably come under scrutiny, and not deviate from the topic.

                          You say that God created "perfect" beings in humans. It is not what was said. He called humanity and all creation "very good". This is a not the same as perfection. He did not say, "it is perfect". He said that it was "very good". This implies the connotation that, even as God knew the end from the Beginning, understood that humanity upon creation would not only be capable of sin, but also, in the right set of circumstances, choose to sin instead of just trusting in the Lord. That foreknowledge caused Him to not say, "it is perfect" because it wa not perfect, but "it is very good", meaning that it fit the standards in which God wanted this universe to operate, which included mechanisms for the universe to continue to exist even if the element of sin is injected into it.

                          And so, if you understand all of this, you will understand that unles you provide scripture showing God saying "it is perfect", then by someone, like me, saying that God knowingly did not create perfect beings in the beginning actually answers your question.

                          Now. After all of that, I want to show what I actual believe is the answer to your question.

                          It IS my opinion that God created a PERFECT UNIVERSE. This would include humanity. It was so perfect that God entrusted humanity with the Tree of Life, which, if Adam and Eve had obeyed God, would have sealed this universe forever. If Adam had not sinned, sin would not have entered the universe, and Satan would have been nothing more than a mere memory.

                          God, in His infinite wisdom, realizing what He actually did when He created Adam, asked Himself the right question. "What would happen if my creation is sealed in perfection, like Lucifer was, and then, like Lucifer, betrayed Him?" God realizing the answer, decided to test His creation, to see if they would give in to the temptation to betray their creator. Knowing the power of total free will, God knew that a thinking, reasoning being is capable of making many decisions that the creature itself believes is right, although in reality, those decisions are wrong.

                          You see, if God had sealed Adam in Glory, represented by the tree of life, and Adam chose to betray Him afterward, then the universe would eternally exist as a stain against God.

                          Also, IMHO, God would allow imperfection to come out of perfection because there has to be tests in order to see if perfection is truly perfect. Jesus is perfect. His life on earth tested every fiber of His being, and He proved himself to be perfect. God wanted other perfect beings with Him. Therefore a test had to be administered. Adam showed that although he was made perfect, he, through the power that God gave him, chose to defile himself, and thus becoming imperfect.

                          My point? It is not God that creates imperfection. God created man in perfection, complete with the knowledge of self-existence. This knowledge gave mankind the freedom that computers will never truly be able to enjoy, and that is the ability to choose his fate. Think of it like this. God made man, and in that creation, God gave man a powerful gift, one that could seal up this universe as his, and thus eliminating the possibility of sin, or, when used incorrectly, could cause all of the corruption and death that we see today.

                          Therefore, it is not God that creates imperfection, but the creation itself, armed with all of the weapons that the Lord gave him at Creation. I hope that I have answered your question.

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                          • #14
                            The perfect debate is quite superfluous; aside from the fact that tradition has always dictated that Creation was perfect, the Hebrew for "very good" means "A met standard and purpose." Now, unless we are to assume that God's standards and purposes are less than perfect, we must accept this means that the standard and purpose of Creation was perfect.

                            Not to mention we are left with two options: Either God created a perfect world (perfect in the sense it was morally incorrupt and functioned as He pleased) or God created a world that was already filled with sin and was already corrupted. Pick your poison.

                            Okay, I understand your first point. If they had been ontologically perfect they would've been gods. So I understand that. However, even "morally perfect" would seem to imply moral perfection...i.e. how can something "morally perfect" become "morally imperfect"? Doesn't the very possibility to become corrupt imply that there was in imperfection that existed already?
                            It simply means they weren't corrupted at the time. To be "morally perfect" means "to be free from having committed an immoral action/thought." God is morally perfect because He's never been immoral, it's not in His nature. Humans were morally perfect, but when faced with the chance to be immoral, they chose to do so. Being morally perfect does not exclude the ability to choose - so long as the ability to choose exists, the ability for evil likewise exists.

                            He does say "good" though. He saw His creation and it met His approval. To "violate their nature" means they had this capability (like you said). I'm asking how does this "capability to sin" exist within something "morally perfect". Moral perfection would seem to include the inability to be immoral. Obviously it doesn't, but I'm wondering how.
                            Through the ability to choose. As I stated, they were perfect in their standard and purpose, likewise they were morally perfect. Yet, they were allowed to choose.

                            My problem is this: why would a good/perfect God create morally perfect beings in such a way that the capacity to violate itself exists?
                            Because He knew they would fall, which would accomplish His plan for humanity.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by apothanein kerdos View Post
                              The perfect debate is quite superfluous; aside from the fact that tradition has always dictated that Creation was perfect, the Hebrew for "very good" means "A met standard and purpose." Now, unless we are to assume that God's standards and purposes are less than perfect, we must accept this means that the standard and purpose of Creation was perfect.

                              Not to mention we are left with two options: Either God created a perfect world (perfect in the sense it was morally incorrupt and functioned as He pleased) or God created a world that was already filled with sin and was already corrupted. Pick your poison.
                              Thank you for clearing that up


                              It simply means they weren't corrupted at the time. To be "morally perfect" means "to be free from having committed an immoral action/thought." God is morally perfect because He's never been immoral, it's not in His nature. Humans were morally perfect, but when faced with the chance to be immoral, they chose to do so. Being morally perfect does not exclude the ability to choose - so long as the ability to choose exists, the ability for evil likewise exists.
                              Okay, so they were "morally perfect" which included the ability to become immoral and the fact that they took that chance introduced evil/sin into the world. Does God have the same ability to become immoral and just chooses not to?

                              Through the ability to choose. As I stated, they were perfect in their standard and purpose, likewise they were morally perfect. Yet, they were allowed to choose.
                              I guess my question goes back to, why does the ability to choose have to include the possibility of evil? Why couldn't a good and perfect God have created us with the capacity to choose, but without the capacity to inflict evil upon the entire world?

                              Because He knew they would fall, which would accomplish His plan for humanity.
                              This reminds me of Augustine saying "God judged it better to bring good out of evil than to allow no evil to exist". But I guess I'm still confused as to how/why this needed to occur for God to display His love for His creation. Was there no other way?

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