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A closer look at "Original Sin"

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sirus View Post
    Total Depravity advocates a change in Adam’s nature that is passed to all men making them guilty at birth.
    Can you explain the following then?

    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    (Rom 5:12-18 KJV)

    Originally posted by Sirus View Post
    Yet because of the Total Depravity doctrine man had to come up with a reason Jesus didn’t have Original Sin so they say it is because He didn’t have mans blood.
    Are you sure you've got it right about the blood, is'nt it that Jesus did not have sin because He was not conceived by a man's seed?
    The Rapture

    My dearest friends, I’m so sorry… so sorry
    but I must confess, don’t worry
    the rapture is not before the Great Tribulation
    it’s before God’s wrath!!!

    Because His wrath is not meant for you
    it’s for all the people in the zoo
    think about it and refresh…
    you will see there’s no way out of here, in the flesh

    If you really believe, you will see
    the rapture is for you and me
    when we decide to leave from here
    that very day, oh! God adhere…


    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by holyrokker View Post
      Job 14 - The words there are attributed to Job. They are Job's opinion, not God's.
      Job 15 - Here we find the words of Job's friend Eliphaz. Again, these are not God's opinion on the doctrine of sin.
      holyrokker,

      According to God, Job was the most devout man on earth, a man of integrity, he was decent, he feared God, and he stayed away from evil.

      If Jod said this about himself, what about the rest of humanity?
      The Rapture

      My dearest friends, I’m so sorry… so sorry
      but I must confess, don’t worry
      the rapture is not before the Great Tribulation
      it’s before God’s wrath!!!

      Because His wrath is not meant for you
      it’s for all the people in the zoo
      think about it and refresh…
      you will see there’s no way out of here, in the flesh

      If you really believe, you will see
      the rapture is for you and me
      when we decide to leave from here
      that very day, oh! God adhere…


      Comment


      • #18
        Wikipedia defines Total Depravity as the following: (definition in black, Scriptures in Purple)

        As a consequence of the Fall of Man (For as in Adam all die; the many died by the trespass of the one man; the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men), every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin ("Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'"; death came to all men, because all sinned; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin; When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.) and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God (and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus; For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace; And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace; For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—; , is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is freely offered. ("None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."; "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."; 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"; "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.")

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by CFJ View Post
          Originally posted by Sirus
          Total Depravity advocates a change in Adam’s nature that is passed to all men making them guilty at birth.
          Can you explain the following then?
          Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
          (Rom 5:12-18 KJV
          Explain what with that passage?
          -change in Adam’s nature
          -nature that is passed down
          -guilt passed down

          I have addressed every aspect of that passage.

          Nothing there says Adam’s nature changed, and no scripture does, so how can a change that didn’t happen be passed down?

          The passage doesn’t say guilt is passed down, it says a judgment to condemnation (death) is passed down. That judgment is both physical and “spiritual” death. Imputing the sin of one man to another is not Biblical. Only our own sin can be imputed to our own account.

          Sin is not a tangible thing or disease floating around that entered the world. Sin is an action or not trusting God. If an action or not trusting God enters the world through one committing sin and Satan was already a ‘fallen‘ creature that was in this world that sinned in this world, why was not sin already in the world? Because man was crowned with glory and honor and had dominion over ALL the works of God’s hands, including Satan. Sin was not in mans dominion because man had not sinned. It comes down to a biblical understanding of authority and dominion.

          When Adam sinned he opened the door, so to speak, for all men to sin their own sin and for all men to physically die. Adam was banished from the garden and therefore the tree of life so physical death was inevitable and part of the judgment received for the sin. No man would have access to the tree of life until the regeneration. “Spiritual Death” (veiled relationship) for all men was a part of the condemnation (judgment) as well. This ensured that all men would sin their own sin.

          Neither Adam or his environment was absolutely perfect. He needed the tree of life to not physically die because he was earthy, natural and corruptible (1Cor 15), and he needed to labor (dress) in the garden. Through Adam we received an even less perfect environment. No tree of life to sustain us physically and no walk with God in the cool of the day in His garden. Sin is certain for all. Through Christ all men are offered a gift but a gift must be accepted. So if you are going to try and say that the guilt of Adam’s sin is upon all men without the choice or action of each individual, then we must equally say justification of Christ is upon all men without the choice and action of each individual. My bible doesn’t say that anywhere, does yours? Just as we must choose to sin our own sin in order to be guilty we must choose Christ in order to be justified.


          Originally posted by CFJ View Post
          Originally posted by Sirus
          Yet because of the Total Depravity doctrine man had to come up with a reason Jesus didn’t have Original Sin so they say it is because He didn’t have mans blood.
          Are you sure you've got it right about the blood, is'nt it that Jesus did not have sin because He was not conceived by a man's seed?
          Can you show me this concept with scripture? I’ll post again what I have already said but will add here for you 7 verses;

          Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

          Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

          Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

          Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

          Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

          Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

          Phi 2:7-8 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

          Some say; “Adam is our *father* therefore we are born with Adamic blood....we have to have new blood applied....Holy blood...His Blood.”
          Where does scripture speak of more than one blood of man?
          Where does scripture says Adam received a blood transfusion or had different blood before and after he sinned?
          That Adam’s blood was the Fathers?
          That Jesus’ blood was the Fathers?
          That Adam’s, Jesus’, or our blood is or is not the Fathers?
          Blood applied, covered, washed, cleansed is not a blood transfusion. In fact, the very concept proves it is not to be likened to the blood in us. It’s a completely different purpose and application.
          Where does scripture say we have different blood before and after being born again? You can say it’s future, but the resurrected Christ said he had ‘flesh and bone’ not ‘flesh and blood’ and we know ‘flesh and blood’ cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and ‘flesh and bone’ does inherit the kingdom of God, so what is this Fathers blood stuff, and where can I find it in scripture?
          This blood transfusion theory doesn’t exist in scripture, just in man invented, made up, presupposition theology.

          Jesus’ Father was God and not a man simply because the Messiah had to be 100% God and 100% man and for no other scriptural reason. Not because of blood. There’s no scriptural support for this claim that Jesus’ blood was different than ours. Jesus’ did not have a ‘God-edge’ to help Him overcome the world the flesh and the devil. If He did have a God-edge, He would not have qualified as the Savior of man, the man Christ Jesus (1Ti 2:5). He was 100% man, right? You can say yes, but having a theology that says he had different blood says otherwise.

          What makes you think different blood would make a difference anyway?
          Last edited by Sirus; Dec 8th 2008, 02:27 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by holyrokker View Post
            I've been doing some serious thought on the doctrine of Original Sin.

            I've started to put my thoughts to paper. Here is what I have so far. It's not complete. I'm hoping for some feedback:

            Ezekiel 18:19-20 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”

            The notions of inherited sin and inherited guilt are nowhere to be found in Jewish tradition. Neither is there any indication that these ideas were held in the Church prior to the 5th Century AD. The doctrine of “Original Sin” originated with Aurelius Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, in North Africa.

            The central passage of Scripture for this doctrine is Romans 5:12 “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned” (English Standard Version).

            Notice that the passage says that death passed to all. It does not say that sin or that guilt passed to all men.

            This is an obvious reference Genesis 2:16-17 "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." Adam did indeed die on the day of his disobedience, but his death was not physical; rather it was a spiritual death. Just as physical death is the separation of man's spirit from his body, so spiritual death is separation of man from God. It is the opposite of spiritual life, which is fellowship and communion with God. Spiritual death is separation, alienation, from God. It is not something wrong inside of man, but a negative or wrong relationship between man and God. Spiritual death is like a barrier between man and God.

            A careful interpretation of Romans 5:12 depends upon the Greek prepositional phrase eph hos. This phrase is made up of a preposition epi and a relative pronoun hos. The preposition has several different meanings depending upon the immediate context and the case of the noun or pronoun with which it occurs. Since the relative pronoun hos is in the dative case, it should be translated "on the ground of", "by reason of", "on the condition of", "because of". The meaning of the relative pronoun depends upon its antecedent. In the Greek language the relative pronoun agrees with its antecedent in number and gender. Here the relative pronoun is singular in number but it may be either masculine or neuter in gender. In this passage, the Greek noun thanatos (death) is the nearest singular noun, making thanatos its logical antecedent. In this scenario then, the prepositional phrase eph hos would be equivalent to epi thanatos (because of death). In that case, the phrase should be translated "because of which" or "upon which condition." With this meaning given to the prepositional phrase, the whole clause may be translated "because of which all sinned" and interpreted to mean that all men sinned because of the death that has been transmitted to them from Adam. In other words, the transmitted death from Adam provides the grounds or condition upon which all men sin.

            This idea is further developed in the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus in the third chapter of John. "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (John 3:5-6) Here Jesus is telling Nicodemus that a spiritual birth is needed in order to have a right relationship with God, since mankind is born spiritually dead (separated from God). Jesus is not saying that there is an inherent sinfulness to the physical birth; simply that a physical birth is not sufficient. Since God is Spirit, we must be born of the Spirit to have a relationship with Him.
            Eze 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?

            Exodus 20:3-6 was not intended to be used for generation sin or sin nature/original sin/total depravity and God said no more would the Israel use their parents sins as an excuse because all have their own sin, which Jesus confirmed with a man born blind. What follows in Ezekiel 18 is what we see throughout Scripture. God blesses those that obey Him and brings judgment upon those that do not. God even used an example of a righteous son born from a wicked man in Ezekiel 18! That’s God’s example not man’s!!! Where is inherited sin and generational sin now? Kinda throws a wrench in that theology doesn’t it?

            We are not born evil, corrupted, or perverted, which is the definition of depraved. So we certainly are not Totally Depraved. Man created in God's image, crowned with glory and honor, totally depraved? Whatever....David is clear in Psa 51:4 that God is not to be blamed and can Judge and this is also in Romans 3.

            Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

            All scripture says man is judged according to his own deeds done in the flesh, and no one else’s.
            Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

            The same is found in Jeremiah 18 as we take a trip to THE Potters house.
            Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
            ........
            Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

            That doesn't fit the Reformed and Calvinistic view of the potter of Romans 9 because Reformed and Calvinistic Theology doesn't understand there is only one Potter that has no respect of persons and that all men decide what sort of vessel we will be and are. Not one example in Romans 9 is an example of making any man do anything he didn't already have a heart to do already.

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