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If Jesus died for all the sin of the world why is there still sin in the world?

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  • If Jesus died for all the sin of the world why is there still sin in the world?

    I found this website today which I find fascinating. Particularly as it relates to my question.

    We are all three times condemned due to inherited sin, imputed sin, and personal sin. The only just penalty for this sin is death (Romans 6:23), not just physical death but eternal death (Revelation 20:11-15). Thankfully, inherited sin, imputed sin, and personal sin have all been crucified on the cross of Jesus, and now by faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior “we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7).


    Part of my crisis in faith of late happens to do with wrapping my head around the very question posed in this thread. When I suggest to people that the above scriptures mean that Jesus death afforded unlimited atonement for the worlds people, I get charged with being a Universalist Christian. Which in the eyes of some is wrong. When I ask if that means limited atonement is proper I am challenged with the question; are you a Calvanist?

    The question is sincere however and I'd like to enter into a discussion. It seems to me if Jesus died for inherited, imputed and personal sins of the world then there can no longer be sinners in the world. Else Jesus died for nothing. Or his death freed just those souls alive on the earth at the time he died for them.
    sigpic

    "You can either be pitiful or you can be powerful. But you can't be both." Joyce Meyer


  • #2
    Re: If Jesus died for all the sin of the world why is there still sin in the world?

    Jesus offered freedom from the penalty of sin for those who follow him. When the day comes that Satan and his followers are cast into the lake og fire, we will be rid of sin. Jesus' sacrifice enabled these things to be possible for all who accept Him.
    Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
    George Orwell

    www.r2ucv.com



    Comment


    • #3
      Re: If Jesus died for all the sin of the world why is there still sin in the world?

      If you are homeless and I come to you and tell you that I have bought you a house at this address and I have given the grocery store the ability to debit my account for any and all purchases you make in the future - you have to move into the house and visit the grocery store in order to no longer be homeless and hungry. It's a gift but the gift remains unopened without the understanding of it's reality.
      I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
      - Mahatma Gandhi



      Comment


      • #4
        Re: If Jesus died for all the sin of the world why is there still sin in the world?

        Originally posted by KittenSong View Post
        I found this website today which I find fascinating. Particularly as it relates to my question.

        We are all three times condemned due to inherited sin, imputed sin, and personal sin. The only just penalty for this sin is death (Romans 6:23), not just physical death but eternal death (Revelation 20:11-15). Thankfully, inherited sin, imputed sin, and personal sin have all been crucified on the cross of Jesus, and now by faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior “we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7).

        Part of my crisis in faith of late happens to do with wrapping my head around the very question posed in this thread. When I suggest to people that the above scriptures mean that Jesus death afforded unlimited atonement for the worlds people, I get charged with being a Universalist Christian. Which in the eyes of some is wrong. When I ask if that means limited atonement is proper I am challenged with the question; are you a Calvanist?

        The question is sincere however and I'd like to enter into a discussion. It seems to me if Jesus died for inherited, imputed and personal sins of the world then there can no longer be sinners in the world. Else Jesus died for nothing. Or his death freed just those souls alive on the earth at the time he died for them.


        KittenSong..first I am sorry you have been accused of being a Universalist Christian or a Calvinist..I truly wish people wouldn't jump the gun and actually hear the questions being asked, instead of assuming so much.
        I went to the link you gave..its a site I go to often and quote on here actually. Its a good site.

        I read through it and it seems maybe you might have missed this part:

        Those who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ must pay the penalty for these personal sins, as well as inherited and imputed sin.

        Then it goes on to say this: Once we confess our personal sins to God and ask forgiveness for them, we are restored to perfect fellowship and communion with Him. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).

        You said this:
        It seems to me if Jesus died for inherited, imputed and personal sins of the world then there can no longer be sinners in the world.
        Obviously there are still sinners in this world. We can't watch the news without hearing about that sin...correct? Murder, stealing, robbing banks, beating up people, gun fights, etc. So how do you explain the fact there is still sin in the world if you believe this?

        I think the article is clear in explaining how a person must first accept that Christ paid for their sins...that they need a Savior. If they reject Him and what He did, the bible is clear...they are left paying for their own sins....just as this article says.

        God bless
        "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: If Jesus died for all the sin of the world why is there still sin in the world?

          Hello Moonglow,

          Yes, I did see that part of the article you mention. I was saved when I was 12 so I'm familiar with redemption, etc...
          I guess the question that occurred to me after reading what I excerpted from the article and into the OP was to ask, since we're all born from God and his will as spirits, souls, arrived from Heaven unto earth how it is that we arrive in a sin filled world as sinners. And have to find our way to Jesus, who was God incarnate, so as to be saved by God the father of all life.

          It seems it would have been better for our souls sake if we had remained in Heaven and hadn't had to arrive here so as to be weighed in the balance of being born condemned for being human, and then having to strive to redeem ourselves from that condition of sin that goes along with it, so as to find our way back to the only home. Or, failing that the eternal suffering.

          And I agree the site is a good site. It's full of information that I find I can lose myself in if I let myself be distracted. Which tells me I should abstain from browsing when on the computer at work.
          sigpic

          "You can either be pitiful or you can be powerful. But you can't be both." Joyce Meyer

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: If Jesus died for all the sin of the world why is there still sin in the world?

            KittenSong;2911427]Hello Moonglow,

            Yes, I did see that part of the article you mention. I was saved when I was 12 so I'm familiar with redemption, etc...


            I guess the question that occurred to me after reading what I excerpted from the article and into the OP was to ask, since we're all born from God and his will as spirits, souls, arrived from Heaven unto earth how it is that we arrive in a sin filled world as sinners. And have to find our way to Jesus, who was God incarnate, so as to be saved by God the father of all life.
            I am not sure where you got the idea we are all born from God...or that our souls were first in Heaven then we had to come to earth when our bodies are born. That isn't in the bible.

            When we are born again...then we become adopted sons and daughters of God. Only Jesus is God's only begotten Son...and He has always existed. I suppose in a sense you could say He was born of God, being conceived by the Holy Spirit then born as a human being. But before that, He has always existed and always will. In our case, we have not always existed and have never been to Heaven.

            http://www.biblepath.com/questions/answer82.html
            Where does our soul come from?

            When God created Adam (mankind's first parent), God formed him from the dust of the ground (gave him a physical body.) God ,also, breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (Adam's soul and spirit.) At that time Adam became a living being.1

            Just as our material side (the body) is passed down from generation to generation through procreation, the same is true of our immaterial side (the soul and spirit); we inherit our body, soul and spirit from our parents.

            In all fairness, there are several theories as to where our immaterial part (the soul and spirit) comes from. Only the Traducian theory, however, which states that we receive our body, soul and spirit from our parents accounts for the fact that we are all sinners (with the exception of Christ Jesus.)

            If our soul and spirit were created by God at the time of conception, or birth, as some believe, then surely all humans (with the exception of Christ Jesus) would not have a sinful nature as we do; we would not be born in sin as the Bible says we are.2 All of us would not be in need of a Savior as we are.3

            Mankind's sinful nature can be traced all the way back to our first parents Adam and Eve.4



            Bible References:

            1 ( Genesis 2:7)

            2 (Psalm 51:5)

            3 ( Romans 3:23, 5:12-21, 6:23)

            4 (Genesis 2:15-17, 3:1-24; Romans 5:12-21)


            It seems it would have been better for our souls sake if we had remained in Heaven and hadn't had to arrive here so as to be weighed in the balance of being born condemned for being human, and then having to strive to redeem ourselves from that condition of sin that goes along with it, so as to find our way back to the only home. Or, failing that the eternal suffering.
            Well again, our souls didn't start out in Heaven. I would like to know where you learned that idea from. I have never heard of any church teaching this and no one says this here either. Only Jesus came from Heaven to earth...not us.

            John 6:38
            For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

            John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

            John 8:23 But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

            1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.


            On that last bible verse, the bible explains pretty well I think how we all came from Adam which is how we ended up being born sinners in the first place. The 'second man' referred too is Jesus, who came from Heaven.

            And I agree the site is a good site. It's full of information that I find I can lose myself in if I let myself be distracted. Which tells me I should abstain from browsing when on the computer at work.
            lol..I guess save reading that site when you are at home.

            God bless
            "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: If Jesus died for all the sin of the world why is there still sin in the world?

              When Jesus died to set all people free from the power of Sin there were conditions to receiving that Freedom - repentance and faith in Jesus' much greater Power. I suggest the reason the world is still full of Sin is that many folk have not accepted the Power He offers, by fulfilling the conditions of repentance and faith.

              I was recently amazed when at a 'Bible Study' and discussion that turned out to be very liberal in outlook. People I had (wrongly) assumed had been Christians for years, have (a)never truly repented their Sin (b) assume that God's Forgiveness is automatic and they have no responsibility (c) Rely on God's Love, and have no knowledge of how much God hates Sin (saying they don't need to know anything of the Old Testament) (d)Have never accepted the power over Sin God offers (e)Haven't realised, or acknowledged, Jesus died on the Cross paying their personal penalty for their personal Sin.
              If they have not repeatedly heard the full Gospel I suppose they cannot be blamed too much . . .

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: If Jesus died for all the sin of the world why is there still sin in the world?

                I'm not quite sure what a Universalist Christian or a Calvinist are since I never paid much attention to labels that other people hand out (all too frequently in most cases) but pay no attention to it anyway okies?

                As for your question, sin will exist as long as humans exist. We are all born sinners and in bondage to sin. Jesus' sacrifice gives us the ability to break that bondage, but also to be imputed with his righteousness. His sacrifice did not remove sin from the world, that will only happen once each human being has made their choice and the sinners enter the second death (this is still at least 1000 years away from now).

                Moonglow - I believe the idea that we came from heaven comes from several people who say they have had visions of a room full of souls in heaven waiting to be sent down to a body. Also, that each soul is given a series of tasks by God to achieve when on earth. I'm not sure of the validity of their visions and I'm not prepared to comment on their theological standpoint, but this is what I have seen around various places online. Does this match up with your experience kitten?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: If Jesus died for all the sin of the world why is there still sin in the world?

                  Originally posted by asparien View Post
                  I'm not quite sure what a Universalist Christian or a Calvinist are since I never paid much attention to labels that other people hand out (all too frequently in most cases) but pay no attention to it anyway okies?

                  As for your question, sin will exist as long as humans exist. We are all born sinners and in bondage to sin. Jesus' sacrifice gives us the ability to break that bondage, but also to be imputed with his righteousness. His sacrifice did not remove sin from the world, that will only happen once each human being has made their choice and the sinners enter the second death (this is still at least 1000 years away from now).

                  Moonglow - I believe the idea that we came from heaven comes from several people who say they have had visions of a room full of souls in heaven waiting to be sent down to a body. Also, that each soul is given a series of tasks by God to achieve when on earth. I'm not sure of the validity of their visions and I'm not prepared to comment on their theological standpoint, but this is what I have seen around various places online. Does this match up with your experience kitten?
                  No I have never heard of that asparien...people post on the net all kinds of weird things that don't line up with the bible..which is why we have to test everything against it to know if its true or not. Thank goodness we have it!

                  God bless
                  "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: If Jesus died for all the sin of the world why is there still sin in the world?

                    Originally posted by moonglow View Post
                    I am not sure where you got the idea we are all born from God...or that our souls were first in Heaven then we had to come to earth when our bodies are born. That isn't in the bible.
                    Sure it is. What you're speaking of in inheriting our souls from our parents, which I've never heard of, is known as the Traducianist doctrine.
                    But what I had referred to and was always taught in our churches is known as Creationism. This is related in an article from that site as well. "How are human souls created?" . And since I work from home the site is always tempting. :p I find I'll have read an article and then there are "Related Topics" beneath it and it's just a vicious cycle of curiosity.

                    Ecclesiastes 12:5-8 (NASB)
                    Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags himself along, and the caperberry is ineffective. For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street. 6 Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; 7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. 8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity!

                    Isaiah 42:5
                    Thus says God the Lord,
                    Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
                    Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
                    Who gives breath to the people on it
                    And spirit to those who walk in it,



                    Genesis 2:7 Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.


                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


                    When we are born again...then we become adopted son
                    s and daughters of God. Only Jesus is God's only begotten Son...and He has always existed. I suppose in a sense you could say He was born of God, being conceived by the Holy Spirit then born as a human being. But before that, He has always existed and always will. In our case, we have not always existed and have never been to Heaven.

                    http://www.biblepath.com/questions/answer82.html
                    Where does our soul come from?

                    When God created Adam (mankind's first parent), God formed him from the dust of the ground (gave him a physical body.) God ,also, breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (Adam's soul and spirit.) At that time Adam became a living being.1

                    Just as our material side (the body) is passed down from generation to generation through procreation, the same is true of our immaterial side (the soul and spirit); we inherit our body, soul and spirit from our parents.

                    In all fairness, there are several theories as to where our immaterial part (the soul and spirit) comes from. Only the Traducian theory, however, which states that we receive our body, soul and spirit from our parents accounts for the fact that we are all sinners (with the exception of Christ Jesus.)

                    If our soul and spirit were created by God at the time of conception, or birth, as some believe, then surely all humans (with the exception of Christ Jesus) would not have a sinful nature as we do; we would not be born in sin as the Bible says we are.2 All of us would not be in need of a Savior as we are.3

                    Mankind's sinful nature can be traced all the way back to our first parents Adam and Eve.4



                    Bible References:

                    1 ( Genesis 2:7)

                    2 (Psalm 51:5)

                    3 ( Romans 3:23, 5:12-21, 6:23)

                    4 (Genesis 2:15-17, 3:1-24; Romans 5:12-21)




                    Well again, our souls didn't start out in Heaven. I would like to know where you learned that idea from. I have never heard of any church teaching this and no one says this here either. Only Jesus came from Heaven to earth...not us.

                    John 6:38
                    For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

                    John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

                    John 8:23 But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

                    1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.


                    On that last bible verse, the bible explains pretty well I think how we all came from Adam which is how we ended up being born sinners in the first place. The 'second man' referred too is Jesus, who came from Heaven.



                    lol..I guess save reading that site when you are at home.

                    God bless
                    sigpic

                    "You can either be pitiful or you can be powerful. But you can't be both." Joyce Meyer

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: If Jesus died for all the sin of the world why is there still sin in the world?

                      Originally posted by KittenSong View Post
                      Sure it is. What you're speaking of in inheriting our souls from our parents, which I've never heard of, is known as the Traducianist doctrine.
                      But what I had referred to and was always taught in our churches is known as Creationism. This is related in an article from that site as well. "How are human souls created?" . And since I work from home the site is always tempting. :p I find I'll have read an article and then there are "Related Topics" beneath it and it's just a vicious cycle of curiosity.

                      Ecclesiastes 12:5-8 (NASB)
                      Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags himself along, and the caperberry is ineffective. For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street. 6 Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; 7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. 8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity!

                      Isaiah 42:5
                      Thus says God the Lord,
                      Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
                      Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
                      Who gives breath to the people on it
                      And spirit to those who walk in it,



                      Genesis 2:7 Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.


                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      I just don't see those verses supporting the idea God birthed our souls ..or did it in Heaven then sent our souls down to earth. A spirit returning to God that created it doesn't mean it started out in Heaven first...it simply doesn't say that. The article doesn't even say that at all. Says in one theory God might create each soul as needed...but nothing is said about them being created in Heaven first. Also at the end of the article it says this:

                      Whether the Traducianist view or the Creationist view is correct, both agree that the soul does not exist prior to conception. This seems to be the clear teaching of the Bible. Whether God creates a new human soul at the moment of conception, or whether God designed the human reproductive process to also reproduce a soul, God is ultimately responsible for the creation of each and every human soul.

                      I don't hold to either view actually because I don't know...even the author of this article doesn't know. What he doesn't say though is our souls were created in Heaven first, them come to earth.

                      I am rather surprised any church would teach our souls existed in Heaven first...what verses do they use to base this on? I have been on this board for many years and never heard one person think our souls were first in Heaven and people come from all kinds of different churches on here. This is a new one for me!

                      God bless
                      "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: If Jesus died for all the sin of the world why is there still sin in the world?

                        Perhaps the article's author didn't feel the need to clarify souls existed prior to entering into the human form because it's a foregone conclusion. Given God created all that exists, souls had to come from God else they wouldn't exist in the first place. It's a matter of consistency I think.
                        If God is the creator of all things, and in the beginning was the word and the word was God and from God's will all things came into being, then no thing that exists can originate from any other source.

                        Thinking that our parents bestow our souls and spirit into us at conception is a new concept, as I mentioned. I've never heard of that prior to this discussion. Probably because it would mean that humans are generators of souls. But if our parents are saving their souls as Christians so they can return to the father after life, how can they give any part of their soul to their physical offspring in the process of making children? And if one's parents were both saved then how can their souls give souls to their offspring that are not saved as well, being they came from the parents who's souls had been redeemed in the spirit and light of Christ?

                        Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; the [d]soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

                        Ecclesiastes 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

                        Zechariah 12:2 The oracle of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus declares the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him
                        sigpic

                        "You can either be pitiful or you can be powerful. But you can't be both." Joyce Meyer

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: If Jesus died for all the sin of the world why is there still sin in the world?

                          Originally posted by KittenSong View Post
                          Perhaps the article's author didn't feel the need to clarify souls existed prior to entering into the human form because it's a foregone conclusion. Given God created all that exists, souls had to come from God else they wouldn't exist in the first place. It's a matter of consistency I think.
                          If God is the creator of all things, and in the beginning was the word and the word was God and from God's will all things came into being, then no thing that exists can originate from any other source.

                          Thinking that our parents bestow our souls and spirit into us at conception is a new concept, as I mentioned. I've never heard of that prior to this discussion. Probably because it would mean that humans are generators of souls. But if our parents are saving their souls as Christians so they can return to the father after life, how can they give any part of their soul to their physical offspring in the process of making children? And if one's parents were both saved then how can their souls give souls to their offspring that are not saved as well, being they came from the parents who's souls had been redeemed in the spirit and light of Christ?

                          Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; the [d]soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

                          Ecclesiastes 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

                          Zechariah 12:2 The oracle of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus declares the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him
                          KittenSong ...the author did mention it..Whether the Traducianist view or the Creationist view is correct, both agree that the soul does not exist prior to conception. This seems to be the clear teaching of the Bible. Whether God creates a new human soul at the moment of conception, or whether God designed the human reproductive process to also reproduce a soul, God is ultimately responsible for the creation of each and every human soul.

                          I am struggling here to understand your viewpoint. I agree God creates everything...it seems like, and correct me if I am wrong here, that you think everything was created at the same time? Including our souls? So when God created the the earth and the Heavens you think He also created all our souls too? Is that what you are saying? Did you know new stars are being created all the time in the universe?

                          I will go over those verse more closely with you that you posted:

                          Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; the [d]soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

                          Yes all souls are Gods...nothing is said about them being created in Heaven though.

                          Ecclesiastes 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

                          Yes the spirit will return to God who created it but again, nothing is said about it existing in Heaven first let alone God sending it to our bodies.

                          Zechariah 12:2 The oracle of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus declares the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him

                          Should be Zechariah 12:1.
                          Seems like here on plain reading its saying God created the spirit within the person he created. Though some say there is a difference between a spirit and a soul.

                          I did some looking on the internet to try to find what religions believe in our souls existing before we are conceived and all I came up with was the Mormon faith, or also known as the Latter Day Saints. Is this what you are by chance? Just wondering cause we don't have too many (if any) Mormons on this board. Believing in this IS going to cause you to have a crisis in faith I am afraid and bring up questions that cannot be answered...at least not from this point of view.

                          Again the bible makes it clear that only Jesus descended from Heaven: John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

                          Thinking that our parents bestow our souls and spirit into us at conception is a new concept, as I mentioned. I've never heard of that prior to this discussion. Probably because it would mean that humans are generators of souls. But if our parents are saving their souls as Christians so they can return to the father after life, how can they give any part of their soul to their physical offspring in the process of making children? And if one's parents were both saved then how can their souls give souls to their offspring that are not saved as well, being they came from the parents who's souls had been redeemed in the spirit and light of Christ?
                          I think maybe you are confusing the soul with some physical thing. If its possible (not saying it is) but a soul is created from a mother and father in their baby, it would work the same way as the baby getting part of the mother's and father's DNA ..it doesn't take from the mother or father.. unless you count the sperm and the seed...which won't be missed by either and don't affect them any. Daily sperms and eggs die that do not affect the person. From those two things new cells are created! Its an amazing process for sure. If a soul is part of that DNA...then its formed too. But that all goes into an area I am also not comfortable with either. My main concern here is you believing our souls are made in Heaven then at some point sent to our infant bodies. That just isn't in the bible. sorry.

                          God bless
                          "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: If Jesus died for all the sin of the world why is there still sin in the world?

                            Originally posted by Frances View Post
                            When Jesus died to set all people free from the power of Sin there were conditions to receiving that Freedom - repentance and faith in Jesus' much greater Power. I suggest the reason the world is still full of Sin is that many folk have not accepted the Power He offers, by fulfilling the conditions of repentance and faith.
                            His Power is much Greater; in helping us to overcome temptations to sin...
                            & our repentance is crucial, to accessing that Faith building Power


                            Originally posted by Frances View Post
                            I was recently amazed when at a 'Bible Study' and discussion that turned out to be very liberal in outlook. People I had (wrongly) assumed had been Christians for years, have (a)never truly repented their Sin (b) assume that God's Forgiveness is automatic and they have no responsibility (c) Rely on God's Love, and have no knowledge of how much God hates Sin (saying they don't need to know anything of the Old Testament) (d)Have never accepted the power over Sin God offers (e)Haven't realised, or acknowledged, Jesus died on the Cross paying their personal penalty for their personal Sin.
                            If they have not repeatedly heard the full Gospel I suppose they cannot be blamed too much . . .
                            I've encountered some superficial "Christians" like that too (on another public Religion forum though)... it was the most freeloading OSAS doctrine I'd ever heard of ...
                            they actually argued against repentance; by adamantly insisting that it wasn't even necessary... & anyone who advocated for repentance was allegedly being "legalistic"...
                            because they also presumed that sins were automatically forgiven; by expounding about the "free gift" of salvation... as if one can just freeload off the Sacrifice of Christ

                            but as others like you & I know; Jesus paid a very heavy price on the Cross for our "free gift of" Salvation...
                            so He deserves an attitude of gratitude for that... certainly NOT a passive/permissive, take Him for granted attitude, you know?

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                            • #15
                              Re: If Jesus died for all the sin of the world why is there still sin in the world?

                              Originally posted by moonglow View Post
                              KittenSong ...the author did mention it..Whether the Traducianist view or the Creationist view is correct, both agree that the soul does not exist prior to conception. This seems to be the clear teaching of the Bible. Whether God creates a new human soul at the moment of conception, or whether God designed the human reproductive process to also reproduce a soul, God is ultimately responsible for the creation of each and every human soul.

                              I am struggling here to understand your viewpoint. I agree God creates everything...it seems like, and correct me if I am wrong here, that you think everything was created at the same time? Including our souls? So when God created the the earth and the Heavens you think He also created all our souls too? Is that what you are saying? Did you know new stars are being created all the time in the universe?

                              I will go over those verse more closely with you that you posted:

                              Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; the [d]soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

                              Yes all souls are Gods...nothing is said about them being created in Heaven though.

                              Ecclesiastes 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

                              Yes the spirit will return to God who created it but again, nothing is said about it existing in Heaven first let alone God sending it to our bodies.

                              Zechariah 12:2 The oracle of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus declares the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him

                              Should be Zechariah 12:1.
                              Seems like here on plain reading its saying God created the spirit within the person he created. Though some say there is a difference between a spirit and a soul.

                              I did some looking on the internet to try to find what religions believe in our souls existing before we are conceived and all I came up with was the Mormon faith, or also known as the Latter Day Saints. Is this what you are by chance? Just wondering cause we don't have too many (if any) Mormons on this board. Believing in this IS going to cause you to have a crisis in faith I am afraid and bring up questions that cannot be answered...at least not from this point of view.

                              Again the bible makes it clear that only Jesus descended from Heaven: John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.



                              I think maybe you are confusing the soul with some physical thing. If its possible (not saying it is) but a soul is created from a mother and father in their baby, it would work the same way as the baby getting part of the mother's and father's DNA ..it doesn't take from the mother or father.. unless you count the sperm and the seed...which won't be missed by either and don't affect them any. Daily sperms and eggs die that do not affect the person. From those two things new cells are created! Its an amazing process for sure. If a soul is part of that DNA...then its formed too. But that all goes into an area I am also not comfortable with either. My main concern here is you believing our souls are made in Heaven then at some point sent to our infant bodies. That just isn't in the bible. sorry.

                              God bless
                              At this point I think the site that we're both referring to is confusing it's own references. Or they don't think there is the capacity for logical conclusions based on scripture, and as a consequence believe it has to be stated outright in scripture for something to be answered through scripture.

                              If souls are created by God, as scripture says, and God lives in heaven then souls come from Heaven. If God creates souls and the spirit as scripture states then the soul and spirit existed prior to conception.
                              I don't think we can fairy equate transmission of soul and spirit with the same profess as occurs in DNA, because we know there is such a thing as DNA. While soul and spirit are matters of faith.

                              I'm just going by scripture and that's perhaps why it's confusing with regard to sin remaining as a blight upon the world that was saved by Jesus who's mission was to take the sin of the world upon himself on the cross. And also as Paul related in Timothy.

                              1 Timothy 4:10 (New King James Version)
                              For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
                              sigpic

                              "You can either be pitiful or you can be powerful. But you can't be both." Joyce Meyer

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