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The Trinity in Creation

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  • The Trinity in Creation

    My words, but the ideas are taken from The Secret of the Universe by Nathan R. Wood, http://www.sacred-texts.com/nth/sotu/sotu00.htm
    (I would be interested to get anyone's take on the book who has read it.)

    We struggle to "explain" the Trinity. We use analogies like Man consisting of Body, Soul and Spirt; Water subsisting as Solid, Liquid and Gas; or an egg consisting of Shell, White and Yolk. But all of these fall short in that the Trinity is not just three parts of a whole, but rather, three parts, each of which CONTAINS the whole, IS the whole, therefore the existence of Each is NECESSARY to the existence of the other Two. This is not true for Body, Soul, Spirit; Solid, Liquid, Gas; Shell, White, Yolk, or any of the usual analogies we use.

    But there are TRUE reflections of the Trinity all around us. The creation itself, at its most fundamental level, is a reflection of the triunity of its Creator.

    For example...

    The universe as we know it is generally agreed to consist of three basic things; Space, Matter and Time. Not only are these three a great triunity, but each of these parts is a triunity unto itself, not just a collection of three, but an actual reflection of the triunity of God.

    I'll try to lay out the first one, Space, as best I can. For the rest, and a lot more, read Mr. Wood's book. I couldn't put it down. Again, the following are my words, not his.

    Space: consists of three dimensions, Length, Breadth and Height. These three together make up the whole of that which we call space. Yet each of these, at the same time, IS the whole. For example...

    Imagine a box of any length, breadth and height. Now put a line within that box running the length of the box. Now fill that box with these "length lines". It isn't hard to see how that Length fills the entire volume of the box. Now do the same with lines running the breadth of the box. Now the height. You soon realize that EACH of the three separate and distint dimensions CONTAINS the whole. No point within the box is excluded from the length, from the breadth, from the height. The whole volume of the box is encompassed by each dimension. Yet they are truly three. Length is not Height. Breadth is not Length. They are separate and distinct from each other, yet they are truly one, in that each is not only a PART of the whole, but each, in fact, IS the whole.

    To further illustrate...

    Take your box now and squeeze the Length completely out of it. Not down to a "flat" imaginary plane, but COMPLETELY, down to zero. What happens to the box? It disappears. If the Length is removed, the entire box ceases to exist. Do the same with the Breadth, then the Height. You soon find that each of these three dimensions, separate and distinct though they are, are
    NECESSARY to the existence of the other two, and thus to the whole. If any one of the three ceases to exist the whole ceases to exist. Therefore, space is a TRUE triunity, a triunity as we might expect to find as the starting point for a creation called into being by the Creator as revealed in the New Testament scriptures, a triune Creator.

    Identical relationships also exist in the Energy, Motion and Phenomena that make up Matter, and in the Future, Present and Past that make up Time. The same also holds true for many other essential elements of the creation including Man, and within Man the faculties of Personhood, Reason, Morality and more. The creation is filled with the reflections of its Divine Creator in His essential Being as the triune God.
    Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will

    __________________

  • #2
    Pretty sure this still falls under Modalism... But I've been up all night and won't say anything else until I've had sleep so as to clearly think.

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    • #3
      Like DaveS I'm going to seek the council of many on this matter but I do not see Modalism. I believe that I see reflections of the one true God composed of three seperate persons that are, none the less, One God.

      In sitting here and running it through my mind I can see the box analogy perfectly. And since it is a violation of everything that is true for the box to just disappear I believe that this illustrates the truth that the Triune quality of God always has and always will exist. I'll be very interested to see other's replies also.

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      • #4
        I'm not seeing any "modalism" here either... I see "evidences" in creation pointed out that reflect the trinity... but I don't see anything in the OP that says (whether implicitly or explicitly) "God exists in one of three modes".
        To This Day

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        • #5
          Thanks for the comments, All. It seems to me that Mr. Wood's point is that the creation reflects a true Triune Creator. Not one God acting in 3 different modes as expediency dictates, but one God who exists simultaniously, eternally and essentially as three persons. The dim "mirror" that space itself seems to be is not a modalistic entity. It is three, yet it is one. Always three, and always one.

          In fact the three dimensions of space, as answering to the triune nature of God, shows us more than just the illustration I posted. In it there is an answer (possibly, THE answer) to a problem posed to us time and time again by those who refuse the Trinity for "logic's" sake.

          How often have you heard this,

          "Look, 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. /// 1 + 1 + 1 DOES NOT EQUAL 1!!!! End of discussion!"

          But the fact of the matter is that this "healthy sceptic" has his math wrong. If you're going to be so foolish as to try to apply some basic mathmatical equation to an infinite Being, you must at least get the equation right.

          A multi-dimensional Being is not expressed by 1 + 1 + 1. Go back and measure the volume, the "fullness", of the three dimensional box we brought out earlier. Do you do it by adding the Length to the Breadth to the Height? Of course not. The equation is not 1 + 1 + 1. The equation (if there were such a thing) is 1 X 1 X 1.

          It's almost as though God, anticipating the argument, gave us in the most basic element of His creation, an answer to those who would refuse to see. Is it THE answer? I don't presume to know. But I think it's a darn good FACT to open a mind imprisoned by false "logic" when it comes to the triune nature of God.
          Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will

          __________________

          Comment


          • #6
            First off I think this idea about the box does help to illustrate the trinity well, but before I say more (and sorry for getting off topic a little bit) what do you guys mean when you say "Modalism"? I think I kind of get it, but I want to make sure. Thanks!

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            • #7
              Hi Git. See my response below this post. Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong about Modalism.
              __________________________________________________ ___

              Ok, let me take a stab at the next one; Matter.

              All the universe consists of Space, Matter and Time. I've touched on Space as a reflection of the Triunity that is God. The relationship that exists in the triunity of Matter is no less astounding.

              Matter, it is now universally agreed, consists of Energy, Motion and Phenomena. Rather than assume that everyone understands this (I certainly don't pretend to) let me give a brief and wholly inadequate explanation.

              All Matter, as we know and experience it, consists of Energy Moving at a particular rate of speed. This is the essense of Einstein's famous equation, E=Mc^2. The desk you're sitting at is, in reality, Energy in Motion. Therefore things do not merely "exist", they "happen". Your desk, micro-moment by micro-moment, is in a continual state and process of "becoming" a desk. Therefore, your desk (and all Matter) is not just a thing, it's a Phenomenon. It's a "happening".

              And different types of Matter are only Energy Moving at different rates of speed. Everything we see, feel, smell, touch, taste, is the result of Energy in various rates of Motion. Variety in Color, light, hardness, softness, heaviness, lightness, etc. is all the result of Energy at velocity X versus Energy at velocity Y. (If I've misstated anything here, someone with a brain please correct me.)

              Given the above, Energy is the source of Matter. All that we know in the physical universe flows ultimately from Energy. But raw Energy itself does not give forth Matter. There is a conduit. And that conduit is Motion. It is only as Energy attains a particular velocity that Matter (or Phenomena) exists. And it is only in our contact with this Phenomena that we experience the universe as we know it.

              The same is true also, of the Godhead. The Father is the Source, the essence from which all things flow. But the Father is invisible. "No man hath seen God at any time". It is only through a Mediator that we come to know the Father. That Mediator, that Conduit, is the Son. It is only as Energy exists in Motion that we experience its presence and Creative Power. The Creative power of Energy manifests itself only through Motion. The power is there in Energy, but it is only Energy by way of Motion which ultimately Creates. Even as the Father created all things by the Son. "For by him (Jesus) were all things created".

              But Energy in Motion is not the end. There is that which eminates from the source, through the conduit. That is Phenomena itself; Matter; the point at which we actually touch the Motion and the Energy from which it proceeds. Matter bears witness, is the experiential manifestation of, the Motion which proceeds from Energy. Obviously, Phenomena is here a representation of the Holy Spirt. It is through the Holy Spirit, bearing witness of the Son, that we ultimately "touch" God. And Phenomena proceeds from Energy through Motion as the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, through the Son.

              But is the relationship of Energy, Motion, Phenomena a TRUE triunity so as to be an adequate (though dim) reflection of the Creator?

              We've said before that in order to be a TRUE triunity, a thing must be not only composed of three, but composed in such a way that each of the parts must encompass the whole. Further, because each encompasses the whole, it must be true that no two can exist without the third and that no one can exist without the other two. In other words, there must be ABSOLUTE threeness, simultaniously with ABSOLUTE oneness. So does Matter, the stuff of the universe, Energy, Motion, Phenomena, meet that criteria?

              Consider...

              It is the very nature of Energy to move. Energy is not Motion, it is that which enables Motion; that which makes Motion possible. Yet non-motion is against the very nature, the very make-up of Energy. Energy by its nature must produce Motion. From the moment that Energy exists, Motion must exist. Motion is therefore the full and true contemporary of Energy. Energy is the source of Motion, but Energy does not precede Motion. Though one proceeds from the other, they can only exist together, simultaniously, and contemporaneously.

              Motion in turn, eminates from Energy. It cannot exist without it, yet is exists in the beginning of it. Motion is "begotten" of Energy, at the same time, Energy can only exist in Motion.

              And the existence of Energy, in Motion, demands the existance of Phenomena. Phenomena cannot exist without Energy in Motion, while Energy cannot exist without Motion, and Energy and Motion cannot exist without Phenomena.

              To further illustrate...

              Phenomena is the visible form of Energy in Motion. Phenomena is Matter, all of it, in its entirety. Phenomena encompasses the whole of Matter.

              Equally, the very term Phenomena is used to show that all Matter not only exists, it happens. It happens, and continues to happen, because it exists in a state of perpetual Motion. There is not an element of Matter that does not consist and subsist in Motion. (In him all things consist). Therefore Motion also encompasses the whole of Matter.

              The same holds true for Energy. Matter is in reality NOTHING MORE than Energy in Motion. Therefore Matter consists ENTIRELY of Energy. Energy, like Motion and Phenomena, encompasses the whole of Matter.

              So we see again that not only Space, but the stuff of Space, Matter itself, is a TRUE reflection of the Triunity of the One who spoke it into existence.
              Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will

              __________________

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by GitRDunn View Post
                First off I think this idea about the box does help to illustrate the trinity well, but before I say more (and sorry for getting off topic a little bit) what do you guys mean when you say "Modalism"? I think I kind of get it, but I want to make sure. Thanks!
                My understanding of Modalism is the idea that God is one Being who manifests Himself in three different ways at different times. As opposed to the Biblical representation of God being One, but consisting of three separate, distinct Persons simultaneously and eternally.
                Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will

                __________________

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DaveS View Post
                  My understanding of Modalism is the idea that God is one Being who manifests Himself in three different ways at different times. As opposed to the Biblical representation of God being One, but consisting of three separate, distinct Persons simultaneously and eternally.
                  Well if that is the case, then I don't think the box example represents modalism because they all three (length, width, height) exist simultaneously, they don't take turns existing.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made

                    God is not three in one, he is one person, Jesus is the son the promise of God to deliever mankind, you can also locate the promise to Adam, the same one that was Given to Abraham, Issac,Jacob ans us.

                    Genesis 3:14 God defeated the enemy by placing a curse on him, he over come him by His word, and fullfill his promise when he came in the flesh, Genesis :15 was the rpomise of his coming top redeem mankind, the promise to pay for our sins and he did.

                    He promised Abraham a son, but the actual message wa that He God was coming to us in the form of a man, Jesus Christ. Now we know that Jesus was of the Holy Ghost, who is the Holy Ghost? God himself.

                    Genesis 6:3 God also shows us that every man lives by the Spirirt of God and that it is the departing of The Spirit that causes death. The same Spirit that wa in man in the Old testament is now with us today, we are simply renewed through the death and resurecction of Jesus Christ.

                    This is the true meaning and reason why Jesus is the only way, he has restored us to life and gave us the promise of the Spirit by which all Christians and believers in Jesus Christ are sealed unto salvation.

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                    • #11
                      One God United Indivisible

                      At one time the Jews were proud to say that they only served one God. They had a real formidable God that worked miracles for them while other people served idols made of stone. As Christians we have a bit of the problem that the idol worshipers had as we have no God we can conjure up for the skeptic. Now if we further complicate our position by casting doubt on our monotheistic credentials the skeptic Homoscientifico will accuse us of hypocrisy. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, reasonable, full of good fruits, and without hypocricy. James 3:16. So why don't we return to the roots of our faith and say we serve God, and realize that he is far too complex for us to understand and be content that his mind is around us even if we can't get our minds around him.

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                      • #12
                        my understanding of the Trinity is this. I look to the teaching of the Catholic Church's St. Patrick to the Irish using the Shamrock plant. the shamrock has three leaves but yet are a part of the same plant because they are connected to each other by one stem. Same goes for the Trinity, One Divine God, Three Divine Natures, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by GitRDunn View Post
                          Well if that is the case, then I don't think the box example represents modalism because they all three (length, width, height) exist simultaneously, they don't take turns existing.
                          I agree. Well put.
                          Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will

                          __________________

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thanks Gospelkid and BlessedMan, but I'm really not looking for a debate on whether the Trinity exists or whether or not we should talk about it. This thread obviously assumes both. I do appreciate your input though. Maybe in another context we can follow up on those points because I really would like to get a further perspective on what you're saying. I just don't want to get too far off the current topic. I hope you understand.
                            Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will

                            __________________

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JesusIsLord82 View Post
                              my understanding of the Trinity is this. I look to the teaching of the Catholic Church's St. Patrick to the Irish using the Shamrock plant. the shamrock has three leaves but yet are a part of the same plant because they are connected to each other by one stem. Same goes for the Trinity, One Divine God, Three Divine Natures, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
                              Thanks, JesusIsLord. I've heard that comparison too. And it has it's value as far as it goes. But like the others I mentioned in the op, it really doesn't fit the critera of a true triunity. Each leaf is not the whole plant, therefore each leaf is not necessary to the existence of the whole. If one leaf is removed you've only taken away a PART of the plant, leaving behind essentially what you started with, a clover. A mutilated clover to be sure, but a clover none the less.

                              Not that the examples I've given in this thread are flawless, they aren't. One essential of the Trinity that hasn't even been touch on yet is the fact that God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - exist as three separate and distint "seats of consciousness" (as the ancients put it). Nothing I've brought up here yet even pretends to reflect any such thing. (Not that there isn't such a thing reflected in creation. We just haven't mentioned it yet.)
                              Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will

                              __________________

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