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  • wayocross
    replied
    People don't witness outside the church to others for two reasons. 1st is they don't want to lose their friends and give up the less wholesome activities they enjoy with them. 2nd they just don't trust the Holy Spirit or have gone deep enough in their faith to have experienced Him. Closeness to the Holy Spirit solves both problems. Because if we are our manner of living should give evidence to our faith. The Apostle Peter explains this.

    (1 Peter 3:13-16 NASB]) 13 Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, 15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always [being] ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.

    If people are offended by the Gospel - that's not your problem as long as you spoke "with gentleness and reverence". They are convicted and may yet turn to Jesus as a result of your witness. And our witness does not need to contain anything other than our own experiences. And our manner of living and good behavior should involve benevolence. Even if it's nothing more than sitting beside a friend or family member who is ill.

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  • watchinginawe
    replied
    Re: Evangelism outside the church?

    Originally posted by Boo View Post
    I guess, Brother, that you and I read the sentence differently. The taint of irritation was visible to me in the "hugging Catholics" part and then asserting that, if we would hug them, we had better allow those in other churches to be the way that THEY are.

    But, since you didn't mean it that way,
    No, I DID mean it that way more or less. I wasn't slandering Catholics, I was truly suggesting that if we are going to engage Catholics ecumenically in love and without prejudice (note, without pre-judgment), then we owe the same attitude towards the local Protestant churches that are plagued with problems.

    If it is our own church, then perhaps more can be said. I've offered words on that and won't address it again so as not to be further misunderstood.

    Originally posted by Boo
    ... then I guess I need to read a phrase more than six times before I allow myself to make an assessment of it.

    Thank you for clarifying for me. Sorry for not understanding your intent.

    Forgiven?
    Sure, as long as you understand what I am saying and you are sure I am not moving the ball to solicit an apology. To be clear, my intent was to defend those individuals who belong to the "dead churches" mentioned in the thread. I appealed to the same reasoning for which you rise to the defense of Catholics as individuals, of which I don't have a serious problem with and feel could ultimately be helpful to engage in.

    Leave a comment:


  • Boo
    replied
    Re: Evangelism outside the church?

    Originally posted by watchinginawe View Post
    Wow is all I can say. My comment is not taking a pot shot at Catholics. It is extending to them the benefit of the doubt, counting them, as individuals, part of the big C Church first in our dealings. I see you doing this wonderfully in other spots Boo. I am impressed. All I am suggesting is to extend the same love to those we "believe to be" in dead churches.
    I guess, Brother, that you and I read the sentence differently. The taint of irritation was visible to me in the "hugging Catholics" part and then asserting that, if we would hug them, we had better allow those in other churches to be the way that THEY are.

    But, since you didn't mean it that way, then I guess I need to read a phrase more than six times before I allow myself to make an assessment of it.

    Thank you for clarifying for me. Sorry for not understanding your intent.

    Forgiven?

    Leave a comment:


  • watchinginawe
    replied
    Re: Evangelism outside the church?

    Originally posted by Boo View Post
    Wanting to be offended? I am not the one who would be offended in your post.

    ...

    Is there a reason that you would take a pot shot at Catholics and equate them with those who have a dead faith - only worse?
    Wow is all I can say. My comment is not taking a pot shot at Catholics. It is extending to them the benefit of the doubt, counting them, as individuals, part of the big C Church first in our dealings. I see you doing this wonderfully in other spots Boo. I am impressed. All I am suggesting is to extend the same love to those we "believe to be" in dead churches.

    The Bible warns against being troubled by allowing a root of bitterness to spring up in our hearts. We need to be diligent against that sort of thing defiling us. You think others are bitter towards Catholics. You were too quick to find offense towards Catholics in my post, in which there was none. Instead we find bitterness from you towards the group I am defending. You won't dare have them even compared to Catholics. Really? Do you have the list of names too Boo? Or at least the list of Churches?

    clormond seems to be breaking through spiritually. They are feeling the urge to minister. When one is called into any sort of ministry, a lot of times we get the idea that we are supposed to minister right where we are at and we also get to wondering what is wrong with everyone else who is not ministering. Saul in Damascus had to escape the city after his calling (see my avatar). He later was set to the side in Arabia by God for a good long period. The Apostle Paul is a good study for any minister feeling frustrated for opportunity.

    I think and reiterate that we need to be careful about the kind of attitudes towards the local church in this thread. They aren't necessary to accomplish what is being discussed. We aren't going to win hearts and minds by going in front of the Church board and proclaiming the place the valley of the dry bones. As I have offered, shut doors lead to open doors. If you don't have opportunity in the local church, go to the prisons. I guarantee that inside of six phone calls you can have an appointment to be preaching the Gospel to prisoners in jail before year end. You can work it another way too, and pray for the open door and see what develops. But opportunity will come to the called minister of God.

    Romans 12:

    1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God--what is good and acceptable and perfect. 3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members, and not all the members have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually we are members one of another. 6 We have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us: prophecy, in proportion to faith; 7 ministry, in ministering; the teacher, in teaching; 8 the exhorter, in exhortation; the giver, in generosity; the leader, in diligence; the compassionate, in cheerfulness.

    9 Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good; 10 love one another with mutual affection; outdo one another in showing honor. 11 Do not lag in zeal, be ardent in spirit, serve the Lord. 12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in suffering, persevere in prayer. 13 Contribute to the needs of the saints; extend hospitality to strangers. 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly; do not claim to be wiser than you are. 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 No, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

    Leave a comment:


  • Boo
    replied
    Re: Evangelism outside the church?

    Originally posted by watchinginawe View Post
    Boo, I don't know how you understand my post. I will give your post yet another read to make sure I am not missing something. But I fear you are just wanting to be offended somehow.

    I'm going to leave it. You just want to be offended. And that, my friend, makes another sad post.

    I will say you do not represent in your post anything of what I said. And I will reiterate that we better be careful labeling entire congregations of people "counterfeit Christians", including Catholics.

    Let's just turn off the steam roller already. If you guys want to get together and build the kingdom, go do it. There isn't anyone stopping you. But there is no reason to slander the Church in the process.

    If anyone wants clarification for my words in my post, please take the time to bring it to my attention. Perhaps I did not communicate well.
    Wanting to be offended? I am not the one who would be offended in your post.

    Look, we won't make any progress by throwing our own out the door. They are the Church, the big C Church, and we better deal with it. We better not be about hugging Catholics and not those in Churchianity.
    Is there a reason that you would take a pot shot at Catholics and equate them with those who have a dead faith - only worse?

    Leave a comment:


  • Protective Angel
    replied
    Re: Evangelism outside the church?

    Originally posted by clormond View Post
    I am just wanting your thoughts on this?

    The church has seemed to have encamped itself in the 4 walls of the building. I often have wondered why there is really no outside effort to evangelize the neighbors or the local community. I see allot of effort to help those over seas and to those that are in the mission fields, but what about home? Now I know we need those yet we also need to go next door, and down the street, and around the block. Is it not our job to spread the gospel or just sit in church and go home while not being bothered with anything outside the walls if it means we have to do something beside pray and give money..not looking for an attack but maybe if I could understand it I could influence others once I knew why..I have asked the question to others in person but seems as I get the "that's the pastors job"..Just wondering for your thoughts..
    It's everyone's job.


    Matt 9:36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
    37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
    38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

    Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

    Luke 8:16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.

    Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

    1 Cor 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
    28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
    29 Are all apostles?? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
    30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

    1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
    18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
    19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
    20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
    21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
    22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
    23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
    24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
    25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


    From the above scripture I understand that whatever God wills me to do, I will obey. If it is to evangelize tomorrow, I will. If it is to help feed the old tomorrow, I will. If it is to sit and listen, I will.

    I will obey. My light will not hide. If I need to stay out of the way, I will. I pray that God will use as he sees fit.



    This was a post I made in another thread about evangelism.
    Here's a link to that thread. http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...ely-evangelize

    Leave a comment:


  • watchinginawe
    replied
    Re: Evangelism outside the church?

    Originally posted by Boo View Post
    This post is so sad.

    We, today, believe that we have everything right because we are doused in the same Protestant teachings all over the place, Our vision is so limited that we actually do believe that we have a grip on the truth.

    We don't.

    If the first century Apostles were alive today, they would be telling us to shake off the doctrines of men and accept what God has commanded.

    Instead, we point our fingers at those who who actually sat at the Apostles feet and tell them that they did not understand.

    Yes, the Catholics have errors.

    So do we.

    We do not have the courage to follow the word of Jesus in Matthew 18. We disobey Jesus himself.

    Yes, there is a time to "throw people out the door." Have someone is church who gossips and sows strive and division? Deal with it by the instructions in Matthew 18. If you do, you might be in the local papers! So what?

    More will come to you because you actually have standards and are not some government indoctrinated entity.

    Be real. Be obedient. But, also, realize that you do NOT have the truth by majority vote. Neither church nor God operate by majority vote. Orthodoxy? It is merely majority vote of man.

    Read your bibles will open eyes and hearts.
    Boo, I don't know how you understand my post. I will give your post yet another read to make sure I am not missing something. But I fear you are just wanting to be offended somehow.

    I'm going to leave it. You just want to be offended. And that, my friend, makes another sad post.

    I will say you do not represent in your post anything of what I said. And I will reiterate that we better be careful labeling entire congregations of people "counterfeit Christians", including Catholics.

    Let's just turn off the steam roller already. If you guys want to get together and build the kingdom, go do it. There isn't anyone stopping you. But there is no reason to slander the Church in the process.

    If anyone wants clarification for my words in my post, please take the time to bring it to my attention. Perhaps I did not communicate well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Boo
    replied
    Re: Evangelism outside the church?

    Originally posted by watchinginawe View Post
    Look, we won't make any progress by throwing our own out the door. They are the Church, the big C Church, and we better deal with it. We better not be about hugging Catholics and not those in Churchianity.

    Read the New Testament. Do you think the Church at Corinth was the counterfeit church? Or the church at Galatia? Let's not start by eating our own. We might not garner their support, and they might criticize us and even hinder what we so clearly see as right, but let's be careful or we will cause them to stumble.

    In some cases, it is better to love them and leave them. That way they can throw you a dinner when you leave, call on you to pray when you visit, ask you to testify, etc. Or, we can point our finger at them and tell them they all have stiff necks and resist the Holy Ghost and walk out shaking the dust off our feet. I've seen it both ways. I've seen which endures.

    So let's be careful.
    This post is so sad.

    We, today, believe that we have everything right because we are doused in the same Protestant teachings all over the place, Our vision is so limited that we actually do believe that we have a grip on the truth.

    We don't.

    If the first century Apostles were alive today, they would be telling us to shake off the doctrines of men and accept what God has commanded.

    Instead, we point our fingers at those who who actually sat at the Apostles feet and tell them that they did not understand.

    Yes, the Catholics have errors.

    So do we.

    We do not have the courage to follow the word of Jesus in Matthew 18. We disobey Jesus himself.

    Yes, there is a time to "throw people out the door." Have someone is church who gossips and sows strive and division? Deal with it by the instructions in Matthew 18. If you do, you might be in the local papers! So what?

    More will come to you because you actually have standards and are not some government indoctrinated entity.

    Be real. Be obedient. But, also, realize that you do NOT have the truth by majority vote. Neither church nor God operate by majority vote. Orthodoxy? It is merely majority vote of man.

    Read your bibles will open eyes and hearts.

    Leave a comment:


  • SeekFirstTheKingdom
    replied
    Re: Evangelism outside the church?

    Amen - I accept the correction, and the on-point reminder of maintaining the character and mind of Christ, even while addressing things which need to be addressed. Without love, it's all in vain anyways!

    God bless you Watchinginawe

    Leave a comment:


  • watchinginawe
    replied
    Re: Evangelism outside the church?

    Originally posted by SeekFirstTheKingdom View Post
    That is the counterfeit church. It isn't Christianity, it's churchianity, cultural christians.

    The real church can't "go to church' or "come to church" they are the church - a living organic thing (Christians being the body, Christ being the head).

    Evangelism isn't dead, it won't ever be, you're just noticing that the counterfeit church doesn't do the things that the real church does.

    I hear you on the rant, and I feel your frustration, though. I just want to make sure you "get it" - as it would be unreasonable for you to expect these fake christians to do the things real Christians do. Hense why Jesus said "come out of her, My people"
    Look, we won't make any progress by throwing our own out the door. They are the Church, the big C Church, and we better deal with it. We better not be about hugging Catholics and not those in Churchianity.

    Read the New Testament. Do you think the Church at Corinth was the counterfeit church? Or the church at Galatia? Let's not start by eating our own. We might not garner their support, and they might criticize us and even hinder what we so clearly see as right, but let's be careful or we will cause them to stumble.

    In some cases, it is better to love them and leave them. That way they can throw you a dinner when you leave, call on you to pray when you visit, ask you to testify, etc. Or, we can point our finger at them and tell them they all have stiff necks and resist the Holy Ghost and walk out shaking the dust off our feet. I've seen it both ways. I've seen which endures.

    So let's be careful.

    Leave a comment:


  • SeekFirstTheKingdom
    replied
    Re: Evangelism outside the church?

    Originally posted by Boo View Post
    If we wait till they ask before we mention our Lord, we will be able to keep our mouths shut for a very long time. There is some truth to the idea that they will wonder about your behavior when compared to others, but I would really suggest that we should find a way to open the door for their questions. If we are the first to use the word God or Jesus, they don't usually mind being the second one to do so.

    When we fail to use those scary words, most often, they won't either.
    Amen!

    I got a call yesterday from someone who dialed my number "by accident" - He was saying something about wanting me to come to his parents 50th anniversary party, before he realized it was a wrong number, lol!

    I told the gentleman "there are no such thing as coincidences brother, God bless you, and happy 50th anniversary to your parents, God bless them too!"

    He was loving it, he went from feeling/sounding embarrassed to feeling/sounding thankful and happy that this "accident" happened.

    Who knows how the LORD works, we just plant seeds and pray that He waters.

    Leave a comment:


  • Boo
    replied
    Re: Evangelism outside the church?

    Originally posted by clormond View Post
    from another post

    landshark posted and I hope they don't mind if I use it here:

    I think SOME people are called to "go out" and take the good news to places it has not been heard. But individually, I don't think that is the case. The Great Commission is not all in command form... "GO" is not a command, it is more like "as you go." What is in command form is "make disciples." So the essence of our walk and witness is like this, as I see it:

    We are to live in a manner that allows the world around us to see God in us. His attributes like love, peace and joy, patience, long suffering, a willingness to extend mercy to those we might not even think are worthy of such... is what others should see in us because THAT is what we saw in HIM... we reflect Him. When we do, people will notice, we are as a city on a hill that cannot be hid. People will ask, and when they do, we are to teach. Not before, because when somebody is not seeking they will not find. When somebody is not asking questions, they will not hear answers. But when they see and then ask, teach. That is our responsibility as individuals. IMHO

    this was so eye opening to me, could anyone further explain this to me? I believe that I may be seeing things through the wrong eyes or mind set.
    If we wait till they ask before we mention our Lord, we will be able to keep our mouths shut for a very long time. There is some truth to the idea that they will wonder about your behavior when compared to others, but I would really suggest that we should find a way to open the door for their questions. If we are the first to use the word God or Jesus, they don't usually mind being the second one to do so.

    When we fail to use those scary words, most often, they won't either.

    Leave a comment:


  • SeekFirstTheKingdom
    replied
    Re: Evangelism outside the church?

    Originally posted by clormond View Post
    Is there that many out there? I have been visiting churches seeking one that I would like to attend and this is what im finding. Am I being to critical?
    The Greek word "ecclesia" is correctly defined as: "The called-out (ones)"

    When you see in the scriptures the 'church of Ephesus' or something similar, it's not referring to a 4-walled building, but a region of believers/Christians (ecclesia). So, I live in the Niagara Region, if Paul was addressing believers in Niagara Region, he may have written to "the church of Niagara". See the difference? But if you come to Niagara Region, there are hundreds of church buildings (all diff denominations) which do not represent the true church. I hope you can see the difference there.

    The REAL church (a group of true Christians) can meet up in a backyard, a basement, an attic, or anywhere else, and function in ministry and learning and operating in the gifts, and going out to evangelize or whatever else.

    With that being said, not to complicate things...you can have a group of real Christians who meet in what you're referring to as "a church" building. It's just not the norm.

    The key that you have to get first, is that you can't "go to church". You can't "go to yourself". What you're referring to as "church" isn't that. This concept is something that stuck, and was never reformed from in "the reformation" from the Catholic church (in the reformation era with Luther, and others). They reformed from some things, but the modern "church" that you're referring to and see all over, isn't scriptural.

    The "five fold ministry" as it's known now from Ephesians 4, wasn't meant for instructing a bunch of people to go to a building and have a man with "the office of Pastor" to lord over everyone else with a "sermon" while everyone else sits there and listens. It was actually supposed to be a matter of the teachers/pastors/elders (the more mature in the things of Christ) to be pillars lifting up the babes in Christ and teaching them to operate in the ministry/gifts etc.

    Jesus was the chief priest or chief apostle or pastor in His example on earth, and he washed the feet of His disciples who were under Him. He also taught them how to operate in ministry. You see that? Jesus set the example. But what do we see today instead? "pastors" of the "churches" that you're referring to, which are the counterfeit, you will see the pastor exalted almost, but it should be the opposite. The leaders are the shepherds, the foot-washers, the pillars to train up the sheep and to help them grow from babes to disciples.

    A real ecclesia can happen in a modern "church" building. Some of those gatherings are for real. They look much different however than 1 man lording over others while everyone are spectators. The real deal you will see The Holy Spirit moving to heal (healing taking place), to deliver (deliverance taking place), people prophesying, MUCH PRAYER of intercession, of warfare, (not this 30 seconds of prayer at tithes and offer time). You will see people learning their roles and functions and gifts and everyone plays a role or a part, you could be the ear and I could be the elbow, your gifting ministers in this way, mine ministers in that way, etc.

    Now, that is just an example, it's not set in stone every time the same. But people are all engaged as they are all PARTS of the body, Christ being the head.

    No gathering is perfect, and Christ doesn't expect it to be. But the mainstream "church building" things of today aren't even close to the book of Acts church as Christ intended.

    That is a basic summary of what things should look like. I have attended gatherings of this sort, some in the form of what you would think of as "home church" or "prayer meeting" etc. I've even seen it in the form of a "church" (building as you're referring to it in your posts) locally, who operate like this, led by the Spirit of God, not a set program of intro worship songs, offerings, sermon by one "Pastor" while everyone listens and doesn't do anything, closing 30 seconds of prayer, sing a song, go home". <-- that's not church in any sense other than counterfeit. Form of godliness, but deny the power there-in.

    People will argue and cling to the fake church to the death and call me an idiot, but I'm just telling you straight up, and you can search the scriptures to see if it is so, as well as ask the LORD what's true.

    Leave a comment:


  • clormond
    replied
    Re: Evangelism outside the church?

    from another post

    landshark posted and I hope they don't mind if I use it here:

    I think SOME people are called to "go out" and take the good news to places it has not been heard. But individually, I don't think that is the case. The Great Commission is not all in command form... "GO" is not a command, it is more like "as you go." What is in command form is "make disciples." So the essence of our walk and witness is like this, as I see it:

    We are to live in a manner that allows the world around us to see God in us. His attributes like love, peace and joy, patience, long suffering, a willingness to extend mercy to those we might not even think are worthy of such... is what others should see in us because THAT is what we saw in HIM... we reflect Him. When we do, people will notice, we are as a city on a hill that cannot be hid. People will ask, and when they do, we are to teach. Not before, because when somebody is not seeking they will not find. When somebody is not asking questions, they will not hear answers. But when they see and then ask, teach. That is our responsibility as individuals. IMHO

    this was so eye opening to me, could anyone further explain this to me? I believe that I may be seeing things through the wrong eyes or mind set.

    Leave a comment:


  • clormond
    replied
    Re: Evangelism outside the church?

    Is there that many out there? I have been visiting churches seeking one that I would like to attend and this is what im finding. Am I being to critical?

    Originally posted by SeekFirstTheKingdom View Post
    I hear you on the rant, and I feel your frustration, though. I just want to make sure you "get it" - as it would be unreasonable for you to expect these fake christians to do the things real Christians do. Hense why Jesus said "come out of her, My people"

    Leave a comment:

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