Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What Do YOU Believe?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Originally posted by Tony P View Post
    Ha!

    Let's take a step back, if possible, and consider why people don't take Genesis 1 literally. As far as I read in ancient texts, the old earth theory is a modern one. I will list a few verses first to start.

    Jonah 3:3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent.

    Genesis 19:34 It happened on the next day that the firstborn said to the younger, “Indeed I lay with my father last night; let us make him drink wine tonight also, and you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father.”

    Exodus 12:16 On the first day there shall be a holy convocation, and on the seventh day there shall be a holy convocation for you. No manner of work shall be done on them; but that which everyone must eat—that only may be prepared by you.

    Okay. These are rather simple, right? Would you ever consider any of these verses to be talking about millions of years? I doubt it. They are plain and simple. We don't have any problem believing them. Why? That is the question. Why is it easy to understand a day in these verses means a literal day, and why is it so hard to understand the same words used in Genesis?

    The answer has to do with the baggage we bring into Genesis that we don't bring into the verses above. The words are the same. The only difference is baggage, the wisdom of this world, conflicts with scripture. The "facts" of this world conflict big time! Therefore, what do we do?
    One, could just discount Genesis as fiction.
    Two, we could accept it as fact and reject the modern old earth theories.
    Or three, we could invent a gnostic view of Genesis and try to have it both ways.
    The latter is the most ridiculous, IMO.

    Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

    Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

    Moses and Jesus both have the same literal understanding of Genesis 1. Therefore, we have a choice. Accept it or reject it. I chose to accept it, no matter how big a fool it makes me look in eyes of the world. That is my personal choice. Each must make up their own mind. I will say this, however. Once I made that choice, Jesus has shown me many things that I did not know, as per Jeremiah 33:3. Maybe it is a coincidence, maybe it isn't.

    Your no fool friend, spot on assessment. The context of Genesis makes it actually very simple understanding. There is some tricky spots, which require more assumptions but generally, it's very simple. The question is can we beleive it? The context of Genesis tells the tale! Are talking serpents, global floods, Giants, one human language confused by God just fables or truth?

    The Bibles positions is clear, next move is ours. But if you find yourself unable to decide on this issue, that's quite ok! Keep reading and seeking and see what happens! God rewards those who seek and I do beleive he will give clarity. If you have committed to another "interpretation" of Genesis in your mind, that's ok to. As long as your growing in your walk the lord and know the gospel, your in good shape. But I would highly recommend you investigate a more literal view, as we have the real scientific evidence to back it up! How cool is that ?
    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

    Comment


    • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

      Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
      Agreed, though I'd say Craig is being genuine here, not 'merely' diplomatic. 'Negative' isn't the word I'd use, but if you mean that he's not keen on a Literal interpretation of Genesis, then I'd agree there as well as he isn't.



      Right: Young Earth Creationism (aka the 'Literal' reading) has conflicts with modern science, but the Genesis text itself doesn't necessarily. Craig makes clear that he wants to understand what the text itself is saying before considering what modern science has to say, as he wants to avoid concordism. So his objections to a Literal reading come first from the text itself. Disagreements between YEC and modern science would be a separate issue than disagreements between the Genesis text itself and modern science.



      The point is that the text isn't clear, even if it's clear to you. Is there a gap between Genesis 1.1 and 1.2? Is Genesis 1.1 a section header, a subordinate clause, or something else? Why doesn't the initial creation of the 'heavens and earth' follow the pattern of the following 7 days? Why doesn't the 7th day not have a 'morning and evening' refrain? How can yom mean a period of 24 hours if there is no sun? etc., etc. You can confidently present X, Y, Z answer to these questions, but someone else might not find them as compelling as you do. They fundamentally understand the text and what it's saying differently.



      I wouldn't say that they are (putting God into a small box). It's just as miraculous for God to have created over a period of 15 billion years, as it would be for Him to create over a period of 6, 24 hour days, as it would be for Him to have created in a few minutes, as it would be for Him to have created the universe with a complete history up until now 30 seconds ago. If you start saying God can't do X or Y because... then that is putting God into a box, but that's not what these people are doing.



      Tony makes much stronger claims than you do, I await his next one
      Agreed, though I'd say Craig is being genuine here, not 'merely' diplomatic. 'Negative' isn't the word I'd use, but if you mean that he's not keen on a Literal interpretation of Genesis, then I'd agree there as well as he isn't.
      Agree. I could not find the word I liked. I had a long reply to this and it deleted it self. So I may do it again but not for a while. Too much work on an iPad. I will say that the YEC version IS what Genesis says. Our interpretation is not just some off the cuff or out of nowhere interpretation, it's what Genesis says. Many have not like what this means, so alternative views have popped up. The mainstream version of life is so powerful and "takes no prisons" so that anyone who disagrees with it is ridiculed and laughed at, ( Genesis clearly implies that "dinosaurs" had to be on the ark although they did not call them dinosaurs, to them they were just animals. ) so many good people have shrunk back from defending scripture in what it clearly is saying. Hence the birth of views that try to compromise. No need to compromise. The Sciences ( all of them ) and Genesis are wonderfully connected and in perfect lock-step.


      The text is clear and there are great answers to all the questions you posted.

      They are most definitely putting God in a box. It's just as miraculous to created a universe standing on ones head, but the text does not say that. I am only saying X and Y because God said it first.
      A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

      מקום כניעה סך הכל

      Comment


      • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

        Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
        They're using Hosea 6.1-2 as Hosea's audience would have understood the prophecy, rather than how it's sometimes interpreted Christologically. Israel wasn't restored in 3 literal 24 hour periods, it's an example of yom + cardinal, so therefore yom + cardinal in Genesis could mean something other than concrete 24 hour periods.



        The answer is context. Mortal men don't live millions of years, so it would be very odd indeed to argue that Jonah's journey to Nineveh took a million years or more. Similarly, it would be odd for Lot's daughter to sleep with Lot, wait a million or more years, then advise her sister to do the same. Exodus 12.16 doesn't require that the days of Genesis be literal days for the pattern of work and rest to make sense, and Jesus in Mark is quoting the Genesis text, not making a statement on the Literal interpretation (everyone would agree that 'from the beginning of Creation God "made them male and female."') On the other hand, when God 'In the beginning created the heavens and the earth', how long was that? If it's a section header, then we run into an already created earth in Genesis 1.2, when did that happen? How do you calculate an Earthly 24 hour period for the first 3 days of creation when the sun was only created on the 4th day? Genesis 1 is quite a different text compared to Jonah's journey, Lot's daughter's incest, etc.

        (Also, a non Literal view of Genesis doesn't require that you also be an Old Earth Creationist.)
        The Hosea 6:1-2 example is completely different than the examples Tony P gave which were literal 24 hour days.


        Genesis 6:4
        The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, (Yom) and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.


        How many different understandings of this text are there?

        Some say, angels, either fallen or not, had relations with humans and bore them children.

        While others say (the understanding I lean toward) that Sons of God were of the line of Seth, that took wives from the line of Cain. The reason for warning much later of being unequally yoked with unbelievers (marriage or otherwise) working in tandem with unbelievers who do things in a worldly manner, rather than seeking God's wisdom and to follow His will, being influenced to do otherwise.

        Living hundreds of years, "giants" men with the breeding as warriors and worldly knowledge and wisdom became famous, renown. They could have been larger in physical stature, unusually powerful.
        I think of Sampson in connection to this story, and his weakness being a beautiful woman who was not Godly, but worldly.
        Worldly pleasure, rather than the pleasure of serving God, propelling them, influencing them to walk against the will of God.
        Peace to you!

        It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from Godthat is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

        1 Corinthians 1:30

        Comment


        • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

          Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
          Agree. I could not find the word I liked. I had a long reply to this and it deleted it self. So I may do it again but not for a while. Too much work on an iPad. I will say that the YEC version IS what Genesis says. Our interpretation is not just some off the cuff or out of nowhere interpretation, it's what Genesis says. Many have not like what this means, so alternative views have popped up. The mainstream version of life is so powerful and "takes no prisons" so that anyone who disagrees with it is ridiculed and laughed at, ( Genesis clearly implies that "dinosaurs" had to be on the ark although they did not call them dinosaurs, to them they were just animals. ) so many good people have shrunk back from defending scripture in what it clearly is saying. Hence the birth of views that try to compromise. No need to compromise. The Sciences ( all of them ) and Genesis are wonderfully connected and in perfect lock-step.

          The text is clear and there are great answers to all the questions you posted.

          They are most definitely putting God in a box. It's just as miraculous to created a universe standing on ones head, but the text does not say that. I am only saying X and Y because God said it first.
          I won't be satisfied until the idea that people aren't YEC because they don't like what Genesis says goes away. They aren't YEC because they don't think Genesis teaches YEC, not because they're compromising (the concordism Craig refers to).

          Originally posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
          The Hosea 6:1-2 example is completely different than the examples Tony P gave which were literal 24 hour days.
          Hosea 6.1-2 demonstrates that yom + cardinal (as in the Genesis text) doesn't always mean a 24 hour period.

          Originally posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
          Genesis 6:4
          The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, (Yom) and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.


          How many different understandings of this text are there?

          Some say, angels, either fallen or not, had relations with humans and bore them children.

          While others say (the understanding I lean toward) that Sons of God were of the line of Seth, that took wives from the line of Cain. The reason for warning much later of being unequally yoked with unbelievers (marriage or otherwise) working in tandem with unbelievers who do things in a worldly manner, rather than seeking God's wisdom and to follow His will, being influenced to do otherwise.

          Living hundreds of years, "giants" men with the breeding as warriors and worldly knowledge and wisdom became famous, renown. They could have been larger in physical stature, unusually powerful.
          I think of Sampson in connection to this story, and his weakness being a beautiful woman who was not Godly, but worldly.
          Worldly pleasure, rather than the pleasure of serving God, propelling them, influencing them to walk against the will of God.
          I'm not following how this relates to the above?

          Comment


          • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

            Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
            I won't be satisfied until the idea that people aren't YEC because they don't like what Genesis says goes away. They aren't YEC because they don't think Genesis teaches YEC, not because they're compromising (the concordism Craig refers to).
            I appreciate your ability to hash this out.



            Hosea 6.1-2 demonstrates that yom + cardinal (as in the Genesis text) doesn't always mean a 24 hour period.
            Yes.


            I'm not following how this relates to the above?
            What I see happening in this conversation is that Tony P will make a post, and bluesky will agree with it and add their comments. Bluesky will answer posts to Tony P from others..Tony P. does not answer them first.
            My comments in question were mostly in connection with post # 166 from Bluesky in reposnse to Tony P. post to you.

            Your no fool friend, spot on assessment. The context of Genesis makes it actually very simple understanding. There is some tricky spots, which require more assumptions but generally, it's very simple. The question is can we beleive it? The context of Genesis tells the tale! Are talking serpents, global floods, Giants, one human language confused by God just fables or truth?

            The Bibles positions is clear, next move is ours. But if you find yourself unable to decide on this issue, that's quite ok! Keep reading and seeking and see what happens! God rewards those who seek and I do beleive he will give clarity. If you have committed to another "interpretation" of Genesis in your mind, that's ok to. As long as your growing in your walk the lord and know the gospel, your in good shape. But I would highly recommend you investigate a more literal view, as we have the real scientific evidence to back it up! How cool is that ?
            I am inadvertently falling into the same habit of answering one post and then another without being clear. With Genesis 6:4 we have "in those days" use of Yom, knowing I am not a Hebrew scholar, I find it is a generalized version of day that likely surpasses more than 24 hours. That connects a little to your post.

            The second thing I was addressing was how Genesis is said to be so simple to understand and yet people have different understandings of 6:4.
            This part of my response is in connection with Bluesky's post #166.

            Bluesky is talking to Tony P, not myself, or you, about Tony's response to your post that Bluesky is in agreement with.. You were responding to Tony P as well.

            I was told once that if I put quotes from two different people in the same post it can get missed by the person or people it is addressed to.

            I am butting into conversations because that seems to be within the flow rules of the conversation at this point.
            Peace to you!

            It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from Godthat is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

            1 Corinthians 1:30

            Comment


            • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

              Ah gotcha, just wasn't sure because you quoted me and it looked like you were replying to Tony / bluesky (which by all means, please continue!)

              Comment


              • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                Originally posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
                I appreciate your ability to hash this out.





                Yes.




                What I see happening in this conversation is that Tony P will make a post, and bluesky will agree with it and add their comments. Bluesky will answer posts to Tony P from others..Tony P. does not answer them first.
                My comments in question were mostly in connection with post # 166 from Bluesky in reposnse to Tony P. post to you.



                I am inadvertently falling into the same habit of answering one post and then another without being clear. With Genesis 6:4 we have "in those days" use of Yom, knowing I am not a Hebrew scholar, I find it is a generalized version of day that likely surpasses more than 24 hours. That connects a little to your post.

                The second thing I was addressing was how Genesis is said to be so simple to understand and yet people have different understandings of 6:4.
                This part of my response is in connection with Bluesky's post #166.

                Bluesky is talking to Tony P, not myself, or you, about Tony's response to your post that Bluesky is in agreement with.. You were responding to Tony P as well.

                I was told once that if I put quotes from two different people in the same post it can get missed by the person or people it is addressed to.

                I am butting into conversations because that seems to be within the flow rules of the conversation at this point.

                Lol, I am with you scooby, the order of posts can be crazy. I am all confused now. Your last post has my head swimming Lol. I will answer anyone, not just Tony. I have addressed some of your stuff too as well as Athanasius, I don't reply to all posts, even if I agree. When I feel I have a comment, I will post. If I like what you wrote I might tell you! I mostly work from an iPad, so my ability to use quotes is very limited.

                And you can butt in anywhere you like! I don't mind. Conversation is good. Let's get to the bottom of this.
                A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

                מקום כניעה סך הכל

                Comment


                • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                  Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                  Lol, I am with you scooby, the order of posts can be crazy. I am all confused now. Your last post has my head swimming Lol. I will answer anyone, not just Tony. I have addressed some of your stuff too as well as Athanasius, I don't reply to all posts, even if I agree. When I feel I have a comment, I will post. If I like what you wrote I might tell you! I mostly work from an iPad, so my ability to use quotes is very limited.

                  And you can butt in anywhere you like! I don't mind. Conversation is good. Let's get to the bottom of this.
                  I thought that last post would be something to read.

                  I will also post not quoting anyone, giving my thoughts on several posts read.
                  Peace to you!

                  It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from Godthat is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

                  1 Corinthians 1:30

                  Comment


                  • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                    Originally posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
                    The Hosea 6:1-2 example is completely different than the examples Tony P gave which were literal 24 hour days.
                    In what way are they different?

                    Genesis 6:4
                    The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, (Yom) and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
                    Days, plural, is not the same as day, singular. The context is easy in this verse. In Genesis, each day is in the singular form. That is the difference, IMO.
                    How many different understandings of this text are there?

                    Some say, angels, either fallen or not, had relations with humans and bore them children.

                    While others say (the understanding I lean toward) that Sons of God were of the line of Seth, that took wives from the line of Cain. The reason for warning much later of being unequally yoked with unbelievers (marriage or otherwise) working in tandem with unbelievers who do things in a worldly manner, rather than seeking God's wisdom and to follow His will, being influenced to do otherwise.

                    Living hundreds of years, "giants" men with the breeding as warriors and worldly knowledge and wisdom became famous, renown. They could have been larger in physical stature, unusually powerful.
                    I think of Sampson in connection to this story, and his weakness being a beautiful woman who was not Godly, but worldly.
                    Worldly pleasure, rather than the pleasure of serving God, propelling them, influencing them to walk against the will of God.
                    There are many interpretations. This verse helped explain it to me.

                    Luke 20:34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

                    According to Jesus, the Sons of God are equal to angels being sons of the resurrection. To me, that means we become sons of God after the resurrection when we become immortal. I would take that to mean the "sons of God' in Genesis were indeed angels. But, this is just my understanding.

                    Comment


                    • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                      Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
                      I won't be satisfied until the idea that people aren't YEC because they don't like what Genesis says goes away. They aren't YEC because they don't think Genesis teaches YEC, not because they're compromising (the concordism Craig refers to).
                      Repeatedly I have asked for any examples of Yom, in its singluar form, is an indeterminate amount of time. There must be some reason to assume Genesis 1 doesn't mean literal days.

                      Hosea 6.1-2 demonstrates that yom + cardinal (as in the Genesis text) doesn't always mean a 24 hour period.
                      Please explain what you mean here. Yom + cardinal. Where is this cardinal in Genesis 1?

                      Comment


                      • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                        Originally posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
                        What I see happening in this conversation is that Tony P will make a post, and bluesky will agree with it and add their comments. Bluesky will answer posts to Tony P from others..Tony P. does not answer them first.
                        My comments in question were mostly in connection with post # 166 from Bluesky in reposnse to Tony P. post to you.
                        If I have missed a post, please forgive me. There are many pages that I have conversation going and forget where they are at times. Also, I may be busy for a couple of days and the thread is several pages ahead. Please, if there is something that I missed, point it out and I will address it. Thanks.

                        Of course, feel free to jump in at any time to any conversation. Everyone is valuable here.

                        Comment


                        • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                          Originally posted by Tony P View Post
                          Repeatedly I have asked for any examples of Yom, in its singluar form, is an indeterminate amount of time. There must be some reason to assume Genesis 1 doesn't mean literal days.
                          I've provided one from those making the argument: Hosea 6.2.

                          Originally posted by Tony P View Post
                          Please explain what you mean here. Yom + cardinal. Where is this cardinal in Genesis 1?
                          Sorry, ordinal. Again, Hosea 6.2 - 'third' (ordinal) + day (yom). In Genesis, Genesis 1.5 is cardinal from what I understand, but again from what I understand it should be taken as an ordinal, as the rest of the creation days are ordinal: second day, third day, fourth day, and so on.

                          Comment


                          • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                            Originally posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
                            I thought that last post would be something to read.

                            I will also post not quoting anyone, giving my thoughts on several posts read.


                            Look forward to reading them brother!
                            A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

                            מקום כניעה סך הכל

                            Comment


                            • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                              Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
                              I've provided one from those making the argument: Hosea 6.2.

                              Sorry, ordinal. Again, Hosea 6.2 - 'third' (ordinal) + day (yom). In Genesis, Genesis 1.5 is cardinal from what I understand, but again from what I understand it should be taken as an ordinal, as the rest of the creation days are ordinal: second day, third day, fourth day, and so on.
                              By ordinal, are you implying the six days of creation were repeated many many times? If not, I am not following your thoughts here.

                              Hosea 6:2 After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up

                              Where is the evidence that this could be millions of years?

                              Genesis 8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundred and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month

                              Here is a verse with similar adjectives. Is this a specific 24-hour day, or millions of years?

                              I think I don't really understand your point.

                              Comment


                              • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                                Originally posted by Tony P View Post
                                By ordinal, are you implying the six days of creation were repeated many many times? If not, I am not following your thoughts here.

                                Hosea 6:2 After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up

                                Where is the evidence that this could be millions of years?

                                Genesis 8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundred and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month

                                Here is a verse with similar adjectives. Is this a specific 24-hour day, or millions of years?

                                I think I don't really understand your point.
                                Sure (I'm not super familiar with the argument so I'm learning it as I go).

                                Cardinal number = how many
                                1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and so on

                                Ordinal number = what position
                                1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and so on

                                So let's say we have Genesis 1.13 in mind (in Hebrew):

                                וַיְהִי-עֶרֶב וַיְהִי-בֹקֶר, יוֹם שְׁלִישִׁי
                                And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

                                From our English bibles we know this ends with something like 'the third day'. Third is the ordinal number ('שְׁלִישִׁי) and day is the expected yom or yowm form (יוֹם). We have something greatly the same in Hosea 6.2 (the form of yom is a bit different but it seems inconsequentially so):

                                יְחַיֵּנוּ, מִיֹּמָיִם; בַּיּוֹם, הַשְּׁלִישִׁי, יְקִמֵנוּ, וְנִחְיֶה לְפָנָיו
                                After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.

                                You'll notice the same Hebrew form for third, and similar form for yom (the extra character in front of yom gives it the different form I mention above).

                                So what's the significance? It's common to hear that in Hebrew it's a rule that yom + number always refers to a 24 hour period, but in Hosea 6.2 we have an instance of yom + number that doesn't refer to a 24 hour period, breaking the rule (that isn't really a rule). It's not an argument that the days of Genesis are ages, millions of years, etc., only that the days of Genesis could be something other than 24 hour periods, and / or that the days, even if they're grammatically understood to be 24 hours, could be metaphors.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X