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  • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Originally posted by Tony P View Post
    Well, I appreciate your honesty. The last two paragraphs explain your position perfectly, trusting the seen over the unseen. However, since you value intellectual honesty, how then is it intellectually honest to read Genesis 1 and create a new definition for a day, only for that chapter? It isn't intellectually honest in any way. It is raising the world view above scripture. Plain and simple. That is the only possible reason for turning a day into something else. The world view conflicts with scripture. A day is a day. Either the world is the truth or God is the truth. Like I said, everyone must chose what they believe. No one fools God with invented scriptural extrapolations, so why all the effort to fool ourselves?
    Thus the snake really talked?

    Comment


    • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

      Originally posted by ProDeo View Post
      Thus the snake really talked?
      Yesssssssssssssssssss
      Some people are offended that the Sovereign God, because He loved man so much and wanted to be in an intimate relationship with his creation, gave Man a free will to respond to God's grace, offered to all. They are offended that God is God as God chooses to be, not as they choose for God to be.

      Comment


      • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

        Originally posted by ProDeo View Post
        Thus the snake really talked?
        Originally posted by Stew Ward's Hip View Post
        Yesssssssssssssssssss
        Thus 100% literal.

        I (as only so far) voted as sitting on the fence. Here is why.

        On literal reading and its implications.....

        #1. God warned A&E not to eat from the TOK else they would die. Did they really understand what death meant or was it only after they held the lifeless body of Abel in their arms? When they sinned anyway besides the punishment of dying both Adam & Eve received an extra punishment, see chapter III and op top of that A&E weren't told about hell and the danger ending up over there since hell only became a topic in Scripture in Jesus time.

        #2. How are A&E doing these days indirectly responsible for all the horrors in this world? Is that a burden one can carry?

        #3. Why did God condemn all A&E offspring to the same fate as A&E?

        #4. Why does every human not get the same chance as A&E?

        #5. Why would a person (who never had any say in his birth) suffer in all eternity in hell because he choose to be an unbeliever? Does he has a point by saying, I never was asked to be born?

        So far my list of objections to the A&E story as told in Genesis to be a real event including a talking snake.

        For the moment I see it as a narrative with as goal: the awareness of sin. Without Gen chapter 3 the Bible would be a thin book or a totally different book. Scripture is about sin and the redemption of it, from the beginning to the end.

        Comment


        • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

          Originally posted by ProDeo View Post
          Thus the snake really talked?
          Yes, it probably did. The original creation was much different than we know. Part of Dino thread talks about this. Animals can talk to us. Sometimes we can even understand them. Lots of mimicking. It's not a stretch for Satan, to, "over take" ( supernaturally ) a critter, and making it "appear" to talk.

          God made a donkey talk.

          This one really seems to have something to say!

          A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

          מקום כניעה סך הכל

          Comment


          • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

            Originally posted by ProDeo View Post
            Thus 100% literal.

            I (as only so far) voted as sitting on the fence. Here is why.


            Thank you for your vote brother. This reply will continue. I have issues with my iPad. Great questions. May I try to answer for you?

            On literal reading and its implications.....

            #1. God warned A&E not to eat from the TOK else they would die. Did they really understand what death meant or was it only after they held the lifeless body of Abel in their arms? We don't know. It does not tell us this amount of detail. I am sure they got the basic idea real soon. They may have had to see it in full colour for the first time. Terrible. They were warned tho... When they sinned anyway besides the punishment of dying both Adam & Eve received an extra punishment, see chapter III ( we all got this extra punishment) and on top of that A&E weren't told about hell we can't assume this and the danger ending up over there since hell only became a topic in Scripture in Jesus time. There are studies of hell in the OT. We don't know what they knew. Perhaps they walked regularly in the garden with God, in the cool of the day, and discussed these topics.

            #2. How are A&E doing these days indirectly responsible for all the horrors in this world? Is that a burden one can burden. Great question. I don't think they "caused" this per say....although sin did enter because of one man. Yes it must be a terrible burden. Adam and Eve were represetives of humankind. We all have sinned and continue to do so each day. It is on us. We don't sin because of Adam and Eve sinned , it's because we are sinners. Ok, go forth tomorrow and sin no more. Can YOU do it? We each must answer for our sin.

            Eve blamed the snake, Adam blamed Eve, who do we blame?



            #3. Why did God condemn all A&E offspring to the same fate as A&E?

            Because we are all sinners.


            #4. Why does every human not get the same chance as A&E?

            We do. Who said we don't ? I am sure Adam and Eve were saved. We are all given a chance to repent and turn to God. What say you?


            #5. Why would a person (who never had any say in his birth) suffer in all eternity in hell because he choose to be an unbeliever? Well, reality is reality. We've been born. Why should I have to suffer a speeding ticket, even tho I don't beleive in them? If I choose to not beleive in Gravity does it matter what I beleive?

            Does he has a point by saying, I never was asked to be born?

            Good question. Tough question. We may have not been asked if we wanted to be born, but you do have a choice in being born again.

            So far my list of objections to the A&E story as told in Genesis to be a real event including a talking snake.

            For the moment I see it as a narrative with as goal: the awareness of sin. Without Gen chapter 3 the Bible would be a thin book or a totally different book. Scripture is about sin and the redemption of it, from the beginning to the end

            Agree. Great questions brother. Thanks for the opportunity to try and answer a few.



            I have to do this stages. Sorry.
            A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

            מקום כניעה סך הכל

            Comment


            • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

              Originally posted by ProDeo View Post
              Thus the snake really talked?
              I am guessing you are talking about Genesis 3? If so, satan is a serpent, not necessarily a snake. Serpents in the Bible can be snakes, but also sea serpents like Leviathan. (Job 41) In any case, sure. Whatever the exact form was spoke. That really isn't hard to believe. Balaam's donkey argued with him. The Israelites crossed the Red Sea with a wall of water on both sides of them. Noah built a 450' ark and loaded all the kinds of animals before a worldwide flood. Moses' staff became a snake and then a staff again, as many times as he wanted it to. A talking serpent is no big deal.

              Comment


              • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                Originally posted by ProDeo View Post
                Thus 100% literal.

                I (as only so far) voted as sitting on the fence. Here is why.

                On literal reading and its implications.....

                #1. God warned A&E not to eat from the TOK else they would die. Did they really understand what death meant or was it only after they held the lifeless body of Abel in their arms? When they sinned anyway besides the punishment of dying both Adam & Eve received an extra punishment, see chapter III and op top of that A&E weren't told about hell and the danger ending up over there since hell only became a topic in Scripture in Jesus time.
                How do you know A&E weren't told about hell? There is no indication that A&E were retarded. They were created whole. I'm sure they understood what was a stake. God planned their fall ahead of time. Yes, God declared the end from the beginning. Nothing has happened outside the will of God, including Eve eating the fruit.

                Don't you think God was watching the whole conversation between Eve and the serpent? If He wanted to stop her, He would have had no problem doing so. There was a much bigger plan ahead.

                #2. How are A&E doing these days indirectly responsible for all the horrors in this world? Is that a burden one can carry?
                They are probably doing just fine. There is no further record of sins for them. God has mercy on us who sin many many times. Why not have mercy on A&E?
                #3. Why did God condemn all A&E offspring to the same fate as A&E?
                Because there was, and is, a much bigger plan going on. Satan convinced 1/3 of the angels of heaven to rebel against God. Think about that one. Angels, who knew God, knew heaven, knew of His glory, and still rebelled. How stupid are those angels? The next group, humans, are refined before receiving eternal life. The place of weeping and gnashing of teeth is commonly taken to mean hell. That isn't what it means. It has to do with those who invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb, but rejected Him. They will be outside the wall of fire looking in upon Abraham, the Prophets, etc. at the feast. This is a literal event and requires some end time understanding.

                Matt 8:11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

                Also, the whole plan of creation is to build a kingdom for Jesus. Besides, if A&E didn't sin, their children would have. Sin has snared us all.

                #4. Why does every human not get the same chance as A&E?
                What do you mean? Chance for what, sin or salvation? Everyone gets a fair hearing on judgment day.

                #5. Why would a person (who never had any say in his birth) suffer in all eternity in hell because he choose to be an unbeliever? Does he has a point by saying, I never was asked to be born?
                This is a good question. My answer would likely be controversial, but I will say this. Jesus only dealt with sons of Abraham during His years on earth. Not once did He share the gospel with Gentiles, nor did His disciples until Acts 9. This was for a reason. I'll leave it at that. See Luke 14:15-24 and Luke 16:19-31. The rich in knowledge of God are the Jews. The poor who received the short end of the stick are the Gentiles. Also, Romans 4:15 "the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression."

                God is a just judge. He knows what He has done, and is doing. No one, I mean no one, will have anything to complain about on judgment day. Each and every person will have a fair hearing. Especially Gentiles that were never born under the law. One cannot transgress a law he never knew. I'll list a couple of scriptures on this subject.

                Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

                John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father.

                Comment


                • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                  Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                  I was genuinely curious what people beleive.

                  Please add your perspective, question(s) or comments!

                  Regards

                  ~bsky
                  I can't vote in the pole, as my choice is not represented:

                  Jesus Christ, the first-born of Creation, who created all things, having been given the power from God The Father:

                  COL 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
                  COL 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
                  COL 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
                  JER 14:13 Then said I: 'Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them: Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.'
                  JER 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me: 'The prophets prophesy lies in My name; I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spoke I unto them; they prophesy unto you a lying vision, and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their own heart.

                  Comment


                  • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                    Originally posted by dan View Post
                    I can't vote in the pole, as my choice is not represented:

                    Jesus Christ, the first-born of Creation, who created all things, having been given the power from God The Father:

                    COL 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
                    COL 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
                    COL 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

                    Poll questions had to be very short. My thrust was to focus the questions to the "evolutionary", very macro issues. I agree with your post here, it would have been included in option 1 or 2 if space permitted. Thanks for stopping by!
                    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

                    מקום כניעה סך הכל

                    Comment


                    • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                      Originally posted by ProDeo View Post
                      Thus 100% literal.

                      I (as only so far) voted as sitting on the fence. Here is why.

                      On literal reading and its implications.....

                      #1. God warned A&E not to eat from the TOK else they would die. Did they really understand what death meant or was it only after they held the lifeless body of Abel in their arms? When they sinned anyway besides the punishment of dying both Adam & Eve received an extra punishment, see chapter III and op top of that A&E weren't told about hell and the danger ending up over there since hell only became a topic in Scripture in Jesus time.

                      #2. How are A&E doing these days indirectly responsible for all the horrors in this world? Is that a burden one can carry?

                      #3. Why did God condemn all A&E offspring to the same fate as A&E?

                      #4. Why does every human not get the same chance as A&E?

                      #5. Why would a person (who never had any say in his birth) suffer in all eternity in hell because he choose to be an unbeliever? Does he has a point by saying, I never was asked to be born?

                      So far my list of objections to the A&E story as told in Genesis to be a real event including a talking snake.

                      For the moment I see it as a narrative with as goal: the awareness of sin. Without Gen chapter 3 the Bible would be a thin book or a totally different book. Scripture is about sin and the redemption of it, from the beginning to the end.
                      Paul explains most of the answers to your questions about Adam, but I want to address your take on scripture. When I came "back" to making my faith a part of my life, I had to decide if I really believe in God and believed God. My first question was "is God real?" I easily answered that yes and went to the second question which was much harder, Is the Bible truth or fiction or a combination of both. My conclusion is that God is truth and the Bible is God's Word and therefore must be truth. If any part of it is not truth and is fable, then none of it can be true. If any of us can "strike out" what we don't believe, then pretty soon we have no Bible left. I accept it all as truth and where it seems odd, I figure out why it is not hard.

                      By the way we have talking birds why not a talking snake?

                      At least you are honest about what you think. Thanks for posting.

                      Comment


                      • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                        Originally posted by CurtTN View Post
                        Paul explains most of the answers to your questions about Adam, but I want to address your take on scripture. When I came "back" to making my faith a part of my life, I had to decide if I really believe in God and believed God. My first question was "is God real?" I easily answered that yes and went to the second question which was much harder, Is the Bible truth or fiction or a combination of both. My conclusion is that God is truth and the Bible is God's Word and therefore must be truth. If any part of it is not truth and is fable, then none of it can be true. If any of us can "strike out" what we don't believe, then pretty soon we have no Bible left. I accept it all as truth and where it seems odd, I figure out why it is not hard.
                        About the green, don't want to discuss that in this thread since it would derail the OP which is limited to the first 3 chapters of Scripture.

                        About the red, Gen 1-3 is brilliant. In the middle of hundreds of pagan gods Genesis tells us there is only One. It further explains to ancient people how He created the (very good) world and how it came to be that is no longer and why there is now suffering and even death, because of sin. That's all that these ancient people needed to know explained to them in understandable language. The story is timeless. Even today. The big questions answered, whom am I, why I am here, where are I am going to, etc.

                        It's only since a relative short time in the (total) history of mankind people are babbling about bacteria and how they possibly came to life resulting in evolution theory and using that to discredit the creation story in a try to erase the spiritual message of Gen 1-3 that all people are sinners and in need for salvation.

                        Point being is that God could not explain to ancient people to whom it was addressed in the first place about how He created the first cell (the base for life) that is more complicated than a Boeing 787 to the power of a lot. They wouldn't understand. Science is very interesting but in the end science is just the study how God did it. The atheist will see this as (more) evidence for his unbelief, the Christian marvels about God's greatness.

                        By the way we have talking birds why not a talking snake?
                        That maybe it is an indication of a narrative. Take also the commandment not to eat from the TOK. What is wrong eating from (any) tree and why would that be sin? Is there such a commandment in the Law of Moses? But (only) it is in Gen 3 because God declared it for A&E only as sin for the purpose to reveal what's in their hearts.


                        At least you are honest about what you think. Thanks for posting.
                        Thank you in return and as I voted I am not sure of any of the above, just thoughts while sitting on the fence.

                        Comment


                        • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                          Originally posted by ProDeo View Post
                          About the green, don't want to discuss that in this thread since it would derail the OP which is limited to the first 3 chapters of Scripture.

                          About the red, Gen 1-3 is brilliant. In the middle of hundreds of pagan gods Genesis tells us there is only One. It further explains to ancient people how He created the (very good) world and how it came to be that is no longer and why there is now suffering and even death, because of sin. That's all that these ancient people needed to know explained to them in understandable language. The story is timeless. Even today. The big questions answered, whom am I, why I am here, where are I am going to, etc.

                          It's only since a relative short time in the (total) history of mankind people are babbling about bacteria and how they possibly came to life resulting in evolution theory and using that to discredit the creation story in a try to erase the spiritual message of Gen 1-3 that all people are sinners and in need for salvation.

                          Point being is that God could not explain to ancient people to whom it was addressed in the first place about how He created the first cell (the base for life) that is more complicated than a Boeing 787 to the power of a lot. They wouldn't understand. Science is very interesting but in the end science is just the study how God did it. The atheist will see this as (more) evidence for his unbelief, the Christian marvels about God's greatness.
                          Why would God be limited to creating the first cell? He created the entire natural world, why can't He create a fully functioning man? Why does God need evolution? Man's explanations serve only to diminish the power and majesty of God IMO so I reject man's explanations in favor of God's.


                          That maybe it is an indication of a narrative. Take also the commandment not to eat from the TOK. What is wrong eating from (any) tree and why would that be sin? Is there such a commandment in the Law of Moses? But (only) it is in Gen 3 because God declared it for A&E only as sin for the purpose to reveal what's in their hearts.
                          This is another part of the spiritual message. God created man to be a family but He did not create robots. We must choose to love Him and obey Him. Without a CHOICE to disobey then there is no freewill. Remember, God knew what would happen before He ever created the natural world and He did it anyway. The age of man alone is different than the age of the Jews and the Law which is different from the church age and age of Grace. All have the same point, man will never be successful on His own. The failure of the first Adam's failure is the preview of the second Adam's success as Paul points out.

                          Thank you in return and as I voted I am not sure of any of the above, just thoughts while sitting on the fence.
                          You don't seem to be sitting but discussing. Such is the beginnings of wisdom. Enjoyed the discussion.

                          Comment


                          • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                            Originally posted by CurtTN View Post
                            Why would God be limited to creating the first cell? He created the entire natural world, why can't He create a fully functioning man? Why does God need evolution? Man's explanations serve only to diminish the power and majesty of God IMO so I reject man's explanations in favor of God's.
                            What ?

                            I said nothing about limiting God, nor do I have diminished the power and majesty of God, neither am I an evolutionist.

                            Originally posted by CurtTN View Post
                            You don't seem to be sitting but discussing.
                            Yep, silly me.

                            Comment


                            • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                              Originally posted by ProDeo View Post
                              What ?

                              I said nothing about limiting God, nor do I have diminished the power and majesty of God, neither am I an evolutionist.


                              Yep, silly me.
                              Sorry, That is how I took your fourth paragraph. My wrong conclusion. Thanks.

                              Comment


                              • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                                Originally posted by CurtTN View Post
                                Sorry, That is how I took your fourth paragraph. My wrong conclusion. Thanks.
                                Thank you and okay. Point being was that we have the same cells (copyright God) as A&E were made of and if the creation story would have been revealed to a nowadays scientist (or average educated person) Genesis 1 might look different.

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