Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What Do YOU Believe?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Originally posted by Eyelog View Post
    And mine as well. Lol.
    Right: there are no pro-YEC Scriptures.

    Comment


    • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

      Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
      Right: there are no pro-YEC Scriptures.
      I take it you don't view the genealogies in Genesis to be of much help here.
      “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever,
      that we may observe all the words of this law."
      Deuteronomy 29:29

      Comment


      • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

        Originally posted by Eyelog View Post
        I take it you don't view the genealogies in Genesis to be of much help here.
        Pro-YEC, meaning that there are no Scriptures that say 'the earth is ~6,000 years old' or 'the earth was created ~2,000 -~4,000 years ago', or anything remotely similar. On this matter (particularly genealogies), I take Paul's advice to Timothy in 1 Timothy 1.4. If you want to count genealogies, go ahead; the information you glean from them is nowhere near exhaustive re: the age of creation.

        Comment


        • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

          Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
          Right: there are no pro-YEC Scriptures.
          Not true Athanasius. There are many. Is there a verse that acts like a stamp and says "the earth is 6,000 years old?", no, you are correct. But the totality of the verses that do point in this direction are many, and some are very direct. With a little God given logic and reason, combined with secular evidence, it paints a pretty clear picture. The world wholeheartly disagrees, ( which is another "tell" imho) but scripture is very "pro-YEC"....
          “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

          מקום כניעה סך הכל

          Comment


          • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

            Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
            Right: there are no pro-YEC Scriptures.
            Neither are there old-Earth Scriptures.

            Comment


            • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

              Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
              Not true Athanasius. There are many. Is there a verse that acts like a stamp and says "the earth is 6,000 years old?", no, you are correct. But the totality of the verses that do point in this direction are many, and some are very direct. With a little God given logic and reason, combined with secular evidence, it paints a pretty clear picture. The world wholeheartly disagrees, ( which is another "tell" imho) but scripture is very "pro-YEC"....
              Originally posted by ProDeo View Post
              Neither are there old-Earth Scriptures.
              Nope, ProDeo is correct: there are no pro old-Earth Scriptures, and there are no pro-YEC Scriptures. Anything, for either side, is indirect.

              Comment


              • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
                Nope, ProDeo is correct: there are no pro old-Earth Scriptures, and there are no pro-YEC Scriptures. Anything, for either side, is indirect.
                I can live with indirect, although it's not the best wording, "strongly implies" is more accurate. [ regarding the age of the earth ]. Biblical evidence for the flood, for a real historical Adam and Eve are much more direct. As is for a 6 day Creation.
                “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

                מקום כניעה סך הכל

                Comment


                • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                  Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                  I can live with indirect, although it's not the best wording, "strongly implies" is more accurate. [ regarding the age of the earth ]. Biblical evidence for the flood, for a real historical Adam and Eve are much more direct. As is for a 6 day Creation.
                  There's no strong implication for either side. As TrustGzus was saying, the age of creation isn't a question the Bible is concerned with. We could, for example, use something like Usher's methodology, and calculate a ~6,000 year timeline, but that's assuming the genealogies are accurate, complete, and the moment of creation was (historically speaking) immediately prior to the creation of Adam. Genealogies are dead in the water if the universe was created 15 billion years ago, the earth ~5 billion years ago, but then terraformed ~6,000 years ago in the span of a week.

                  Comment


                  • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                    Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
                    There's no strong implication for either side. As TrustGzus was saying, the age of creation isn't a question the Bible is concerned with. We could, for example, use something like Usher's methodology, and calculate a ~6,000 year timeline, but that's assuming the genealogies are accurate, complete, and the moment of creation was (historically speaking) immediately prior to the creation of Adam. Genealogies are dead in the water if the universe was created 15 billion years ago, the earth ~5 billion years ago, but then terraformed ~6,000 years ago in the span of a week.
                    Hi Athanasius

                    I agree, it's not a question its overly concerned with, per say. Its a just a assumed given. Not important per say by itself; but becomes important, when the totality of the issue rears its head ( accuracy/authority of Genesis ) as, it is strongly implied.

                    Walk backwards from Jesus to Adam.

                    How much time can we really expect to squeeze in here?

                    If the Creation event was a 6 day event, which is plainly stated:

                    "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; Exodus 20:11
                    If Adam was a real man that lived not that long ago, [ by logically walking it backwards ] as we have the genealogies, [ there is evidence that they can be trusted ] and if Adam was made on day 6, the animals on day 5 and so on, there is no reason to assume long ages at all.

                    The only reason we would need to "go there" [ assume long ages ] is because the 'myths of men' have taken over the mainstream 'group think', and we [ the church ] have capitulated ground, where ground, need not be capitulated.

                    There is just no reason to complicate the matter with ~billions of years, at any point with a verse like Exodus 20-:11

                    Read it again; it covers everything....the Heavens & the Earth.

                    God is more than capable of doing such, considering we have so many examples of INSTANT creation [ miracles ] of fish, bread, wine, miracles of healing ....

                    Ponder this fact....from >>>http://www.universetoday.com/38125/h...been-on-earth/ Even the OE see the data, but they don't REALLY see!

                    >>> While our ancestors have been around for about six million years, the modern form of humans only evolved about 200,000 years ago. Civilization as we know it is only about 6,000 years old, and industrialization started in the earnest only in the 1800s. While we’ve accomplished much in that short time, it also shows our responsibility as caretakers for the only planet we live on right now.<<<


                    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

                    מקום כניעה סך הכל

                    Comment


                    • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                      Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                      Hi Athanasius

                      I agree, it's not a question its overly concerned with, per say. Its a just a assumed given. Not important per say by itself; but becomes important, when the totality of the issue rears its head ( accuracy/authority of Genesis ) as, it is strongly implied.

                      Walk backwards from Jesus to Adam.

                      How much time can we really expect to squeeze in here?

                      If the Creation event was a 6 day event, which is plainly stated:

                      If Adam was a real man that lived not that long ago, [ by logically walking it backwards ] as we have the genealogies, [ there is evidence that they can be trusted ] and if Adam was made on day 6, the animals on day 5 and so on, there is no reason to assume long ages at all. If only the

                      The only reason we would need to "go there" [ assume long ages ] is because the 'myths of men' have taken over the mainstream 'group think', and we [ the church ] have capitulated ground, where ground, need not be capitulated. If only the s

                      There is just no reason to complicate the matter with ~billions of years, at any point with a verse like Exodus 20-:11

                      Read it again; it covers everything....the Heavens & the Earth.

                      God is more than capable of doing such, considering we have so many examples of INSTANT creation [ miracles ] of fish, bread, wine, miracles of healing ....

                      Ponder this fact....from >>>http://www.universetoday.com/38125/h...been-on-earth/ Even the OE see the data, but they don't REALLY see!

                      >>> While our ancestors have been around for about six million years, the modern form of humans only evolved about 200,000 years ago. Civilization as we know it is only about 6,000 years old, and industrialization started in the earnest only in the 1800s. While we’ve accomplished much in that short time, it also shows our responsibility as caretakers for the only planet we live on right now.<<<


                      We can 'squeeze' as much time as we want into the account, as there are no time indicators prior to the first day. Keep in mind that neither Genesis 1, or 2, detail the actual creation of the earth itself prior to God's populating it. In Genesis 1.2 we begin with an already existing planet, and Exodus 20.11 doesn't add any new information. This is plain from the text, and isn't down to some group-think, myth-of-men, church-capitulating conspiracy.

                      Comment


                      • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                        Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
                        We can 'squeeze' as much time as we want into the account, as there are no time indicators prior to the first day.
                        I can agree. But this can cut both ways, we also may not need to squeeze more than is necessary.


                        Keep in mind that neither Genesis 1, or 2, detail the actual creation of the earth itself prior to God's populating it.
                        Not sure I understand your position here. Genesis 1 lays out very much detail of the creation of the earth prior to the Creation of man.


                        In Genesis 1.2 we begin with an already existing planet, and Exodus 20.11 doesn't add any new information. This is plain from the text, and isn't down to some group-think, myth-of-men, church-capitulating conspiracy.
                        Genesis 1:1 simple says he created the Heavens and the Earth. Bang. Done. We can complicate this, sure, but do we need to? Considering His power, [ to create things instantly and ex nihilo ] then perhaps that's exactly what He did? I think this is reasonable to assume this. Exodus 20 supports this assumption.
                        “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

                        מקום כניעה סך הכל

                        Comment


                        • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                          Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                          I can agree. But this can cut both ways, we also may not need to squeeze more than is necessary.
                          Of course

                          Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                          Not sure I understand your position here. Genesis 1 lays out very much detail of the creation of the earth prior to the Creation of man.
                          Read the creation accounts again:

                          Genesis 1.1-2
                          In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters

                          Genesis 2.1; 4 - 5
                          Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.
                          This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens. Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground

                          Both of these accounts detail the population of the earth, not its creation. In each, the earth already exists. Even in Genesis 1, the closest we get is 'God created', to 'the earth was formless', and only then does the author talk about the evening, and morning (starting at Genesis 1.5). Where do we read something like, 'And God said, "Let there be the earth"...'? We don't. That detail is missing from the text.

                          Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                          Genesis 1:1 simple says he created the Heavens and the Earth. Bang. Done. We can complicate this, sure, but do we need to? Considering His power, [ to create things instantly and ex nihilo ] then perhaps that's exactly what He did? I think this is reasonable to assume this. Exodus 20 supports this assumption.
                          The point is that no indication of time is given. My minor point is that neither of the accounts describes the creation of the earth, and Genesis 1.1 doesn't either.

                          Comment


                          • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                            Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
                            Of course


                            Read the creation accounts again:

                            Genesis 1.1-2
                            In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters

                            Genesis 2.1; 4 - 5
                            Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.
                            This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens. Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground
                            Ok, I did

                            Both of these accounts detail the population of the earth, not its creation.
                            Not sure how you see that 1.1 shows the population of the earth portion... Here it is...it clearly states "God created the Heavens AND the Earth", point blank. Just like that. Bang. Done. Like water to wine. Instantly. We don't know how long this took tho, I can agree here. I suppose it all hinges on whether or not 1.1 was meant to be incorporated in day one. If it was, then, we can assume he made the formless blob and the universe very quickly. He is capable of this.

                            It can easily be seen in this light, but, I agree, a longer initial 'earth creation time' prior to 1:2 is also possible. I don't believe this is the case however, [ as, it's just not necessary ] but I will consed it's possible, we just don't know. But if you or others want to see billions of years in 1.1, that's ok. Everything else is clearly recent.

                            From 1:3 onward, its clearly meant to be interpreted as literal 24 hour periods of time... as Exodus would support. It flows and makes much more sense to see it as one big fast package, considering Gods power and abilities that the NT shows us. Also, walking backwards from Jesus, mankinds Creation was recent; [ relative to us, ~6,000 y ] and we also lived with large Creatures we now call "dinosaurs"....

                            In each, the earth already exists. Even in Genesis 1, the closest we get is 'God created', to 'the earth was formless', and only then does the author talk about the evening, and morning (starting at Genesis 1.5). Where do we read something like, 'And God said, "Let there be the earth"...'? We don't. That detail is missing from the text.[/QUOTE]

                            We essentially do read "Let there be the earth" right here >>> In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
                            It's just phrased differently, same essential meaning tho....

                            The point is that no indication of time is given. My minor point is that neither of the accounts describes the creation of the earth, and Genesis 1.1 doesn't either.
                            I must respectfully disagree. 1.1 clearly describes the Creation of the earth, yes, in a VERY rudimentary manner, but it's right there in black and white.
                            “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

                            מקום כניעה סך הכל

                            Comment


                            • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                              Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                              Not sure how you see that 1.1 shows the population of the earth portion... Here it is...it clearly states "God created the Heavens AND the Earth", point blank. Just like that. Bang. Done. Like water to wine. Instantly. We don't know how long this took tho, I can agree here. I suppose it all hinges on whether or not 1.1 was meant to be incorporated in day one. If it was, then, we can assume he made the formless blob and the universe very quickly. He is capable of this.

                              It can easily be seen in this light, but, I agree, a longer initial 'earth creation time' prior to 1:2 is also possible. I don't believe this is the case however, [ as, it's just not necessary ] but I will consed it's possible, we just don't know. But if you or others want to see billions of years in 1.1, that's ok. Everything else is clearly recent.

                              From 1:3 onward, its clearly meant to be interpreted as literal 24 hour periods of time... as Exodus would support. It flows and makes much more sense to see it as one big fast package, considering Gods power and abilities that the NT shows us. Also, walking backwards from Jesus, mankinds Creation was recent; [ relative to us, ~6,000 y ] and we also lived with large Creatures we now call "dinosaurs"....

                              In each, the earth already exists. Even in Genesis 1, the closest we get is 'God created', to 'the earth was formless', and only then does the author talk about the evening, and morning (starting at Genesis 1.5). Where do we read something like, 'And God said, "Let there be the earth"...'? We don't. That detail is missing from the text.
                              That's my point: there are no time indicators prior to 1.5, so going back to your earlier post, it wouldn't be against the text if we thought there were ~15 billion years in those first four verses, particularly 1.2.

                              Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                              We essentially do read "Let there be the earth" right here >>> In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
                              It's just phrased differently, same essential meaning tho....

                              I must respectfully disagree. 1.1 clearly describes the Creation of the earth, yes, in a VERY rudimentary manner, but it's right there in black and white.
                              That is only if you don't consider 1.1 to be a summary of the rest of Genesis 1. If you do, then no: we are told that God created everything, but we are not told anything about the creation of the earth beyond this.

                              Comment


                              • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                                Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
                                That's my point: there are no time indicators prior to 1.5, so going back to your earlier post, it wouldn't be against the text if we thought there were ~15 billion years in those first four verses, particularly 1.2.
                                Hi Athanasius,

                                Just lost a huge post due to "a bad tokin" I don't have time to redo it all. But I will try and summarize again here.

                                I see what your saying, but I think the only place with no 'time indicators' would be 1.1 but I don't see that as correct. The rest tho can belong [ be seen ] as to "day one". But If I am being honest, the whole thing is day one. 1.1 to 1.5, all day one. 1.1 is merely a overall arching statement setting the stage for who did what & when.

                                He could do this. Just snap his fingers and BANG ( pun intended ) the whole universe, and a proto-earth (unformed ) just came into existence. The rest drills down a little deeper into the initial events. But I can agree with you, that long ages are possible in and around 1.1. Then we have three options before us for 1.1 and/or 1.2

                                1 All Old Ages are Implied
                                2 A Combo of Old and Young
                                3 A Young are Implied.

                                What I would do next is look for other evidence streams ( other Scripture, assumptions, or secular evidence ) that may shed some more light on the matter.

                                That is only if you don't consider 1.1 to be a summary of the rest of Genesis 1. If you do, then no: we are told that God created everything, but we are not told anything about the creation of the earth beyond this.
                                Probably because there is not much else to say within the scope of the text. We are told all we need to know. We don't need more details to get the picture... In the beginning created the heavens and the earth. But the earth was formless and void.

                                Perhaps this is what is meant..but just not said...

                                In the beginning God created the heavens and [ a ] the [ proto ] earth. ***Just thinking out loud.
                                “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

                                מקום כניעה סך הכל

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X