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  • #76
    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Originally posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    You are talking to Christians who believe in God, but not speaking to them as should be spoken.
    That is what I take issue with.

    I read all of the scriptures I do not refute that God created all things. I also did not mention evolution, and this is because I do not really know how God created things, I just know regarding scripture that the plants grew, like plants grow today.

    I mean one could get nick picky with the scripture you posted...I mean maybe we should take it word for word and say well...In Genesis 1 man was created on the 6th day, not the first day----so how could it be the beginning of creation?

    I say it can be from the beginning because God planned from the beginning what he wished to create as it was in His mind, it came into being..however He chose it to come into being, a manner that we do not know----but humans have this great desire to make everything fit into what we can understand, forgetting how much bigger God's eternal mind is than our own.


    Conversation is blown for me.
    What you describe is exactly what EV's have done. They have it all explained down to genomes. They have us beat hands down in explanations.

    We don't know how he did it either. All we know is what the text says, and it implies a rather quick creation. But we don't like that term, generally speaking, "quick" as science tells us it's all long.

    Sorry the conversation may be blown brother, but don't give up, this medium is hard to communicate in. I goof up all the time. Tony and I have both apologized for out presentation at times. This is heated but but we are all brothers. Let's talk.

    I have greatly enjoyed your contribution.
    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: What Do YOU Believe?

      Originally posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
      You are talking to Christians who believe in God, but not speaking to them as should be spoken.
      That is what I take issue with.

      I read all of the scriptures I do not refute that God created all things. I also did not mention evolution, and this is because I do not really know how God created things, I just know regarding scripture that the plants grew, like plants grow today.

      I mean one could get nick picky with the scripture you posted...I mean maybe we should take it word for word and say well...In Genesis 1 man was created on the 6th day, not the first day----so how could it be the beginning of creation?

      I say it can be from the beginning because God planned from the beginning what he wished to create as it was in His mind, it came into being..however He chose it to come into being, a manner that we do not know----but humans have this great desire to make everything fit into what we can understand, forgetting how much bigger God's eternal mind is than our own.


      Conversation is blown for me.
      But we do know how God did it. And when we accept that which is plainly written in Genesis, we find that in the way God created in six days actually helps us to see that creation days were not long spans of time. We read that God created through His spoken word. God spoke and it was so. I don't think any of us would argue that God speaking was not in a moment, almost the twinkling of an eye? Therefore how could evolution or even theistic evolution on any level find agreement with the creation story?

      Blessings,
      RW

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: What Do YOU Believe?

        Originally posted by Tony P View Post
        Well stated, brother!

        If we take an objective outside view of the last 100 years or so, we can see two opposing trends. One, the decline of faith in Christ in our country. Two, the rise of evolution theory in our country. The two are directly related. Evolution increased while faith decreased over the last 100 years. This isn't a coincidence.
        You could be making a classic causation/correlation error here. I'm not saying it's not completely untrue, but I would strongly suspect there is a lot more to it than some linear correlation between them.

        I would argue perhaps that the philosophies that have been derived by, influenced by, or informed by biological evolutionary theory are the problem, not the theory as such since only speaks to the diversity of life and the mechanisms.
        Do not say, Why were the old days better than these? For it is not wise to ask such questions.
        Ecc 7:10

        John777 exists to me only in quoted form.


        Comment


        • #79
          Re: What Do YOU Believe?

          Originally posted by RogerW View Post
          But we do know how God did it. And when we accept that which is plainly written in Genesis, we find that in the way God created in six days actually helps us to see that creation days were not long spans of time. We read that God created through His spoken word. God spoke and it was so. I don't think any of us would argue that God speaking was not in a moment, almost the twinkling of an eye? Therefore how could evolution or even theistic evolution on any level find agreement with the creation story?

          Blessings,
          RW
          As I stated in my first (or maybe second) post, for me to take literal 6 day creation, then I would have to take all of Genesis literally..and well, I do not take every word of Genesis literally.

          Is there a visual expectancy when we read that God speaks and creates?
          Is it material as we would visualize it or is it material as God visualizes it?

          God is powerful, super beyond me -- all intelligence and wisdom and that is the most intact visual I get when knowing He created every part of everything, just the way He wanted to.

          I believe that is how we are to see Him, and that is enough for me.
          God had a really long conversation with Job regarding creation and His ability, and Jobs inability to understand or do, as he has done.

          I do not see (this subject) as an issue with salvation as some here seem to..that's too bad.
          Peace to you!

          It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from Godthat is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

          1 Corinthians 1:30

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: What Do YOU Believe?

            Originally posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
            As I stated in my first (or maybe second) post, for me to take literal 6 day creation, then I would have to take all of Genesis literally..and well, I do not take every word of Genesis literally.


            What parts of Genesis would bother you if taken literally ? I am genuinely curious. What parts are too far fetched ? What parts have been proven false?


            Is there a visual expectancy when we read that God speaks and creates?
            Is it material as we would visualize it or is it material as God visualizes it?

            Good questions friend. I don't know.

            God is powerful, super beyond me -- all intelligence and wisdom and that is the most intact visual I get when knowing He created every part of everything, just the way He wanted to.

            I believe that is how we are to see Him, and that is enough for me.
            God had a really long conversation with Job regarding creation and His ability, and Jobs inability to understand or do, as he has done.

            Yes but Job was not questioning Gods written word. All we are doing is beleiving what God has wrote us.

            I do not see (this subject) as an issue with salvation as some here seem to..that's too bad.
            Salvatin does not hinge on this issue [for some] I agree. I think all of would agree on this. I fear you may be missing the point we are driving at. No one is saying its a salvation issue.
            A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

            מקום כניעה סך הכל

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: What Do YOU Believe?

              Originally posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
              As I stated in my first (or maybe second) post, for me to take literal 6 day creation, then I would have to take all of Genesis literally..and well, I do not take every word of Genesis literally.
              Out of curiosity, what else in Genesis do you not take literally? Maybe figurative or something?

              Is there a visual expectancy when we read that God speaks and creates?
              Is it material as we would visualize it or is it material as God visualizes it?
              I can't speak for God here, but we can look at what Jesus did and perhaps answer these questions.

              17 And they said to Him, “We have here only five loaves and two fish.”

              18 He said, “Bring them here to Me.” 19 Then He commanded the multitudes to sit down on the grass. And He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, He blessed and broke and gave the loaves to the disciples; and the disciples gave to the multitudes. 20 So they all ate and were filled, and they took up twelve baskets full of the fragments that remained. 21 Now those who had eaten were about five thousand men, besides women and children.

              Now, this may not be considered the exact same thing as creation week, but Jesus spoke and 5000+ people ate food that didn't exist a few moments earlier. So, for me, it isn't hard to imagine God speaking things into existence during creation and them appearing immediately.

              God is powerful, super beyond me -- all intelligence and wisdom and that is the most intact visual I get when knowing He created every part of everything, just the way He wanted to.

              I believe that is how we are to see Him, and that is enough for me.
              God had a really long conversation with Job regarding creation and His ability, and Jobs inability to understand or do, as he has done.
              Sure.

              I do not see (this subject) as an issue with salvation as some here seem to..that's too bad.
              I don't think it is a salvation issue either. I just hate to see so many people believe the world and question the Bible. The only possible righteousness we can obtain in this life is faith. It is the very reason for our justification in the first place. So, why not just accept what is plainly written and grow our faith in God? Faith is all we really have to offer Him. That is one main point for me. Ultimately, one will not lose salvation over disbelieving Genesis unless it causes him to lose faith in God altogether. On the other hand, what kind of benefits accompany submitting our total faith in God? Plenty!

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                Originally posted by teddyv View Post
                You could be making a classic causation/correlation error here. I'm not saying it's not completely untrue, but I would strongly suspect there is a lot more to it than some linear correlation between them.

                I would argue perhaps that the philosophies that have been derived by, influenced by, or informed by biological evolutionary theory are the problem, not the theory as such since only speaks to the diversity of life and the mechanisms.
                Is the triple negative by design, or a slip. If slip, then I agree with you. There are likely a multitude of factors. Honestly, if the theory of evolution is enough to cause a person to run away from Christ, they weren't likely to remain anyhow. Parable of the sower. But, ultimately that theory has caused many to stumble and it is sad indeed.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                  Originally posted by Tony P View Post
                  Out of curiosity, what else in Genesis do you not take literally? Maybe figurative or something?
                  It isn't necessarily figurative either. I may try to find a definition if I can.

                  I can't speak for God here, but we can look at what Jesus did and perhaps answer these questions.

                  17 And they said to Him, We have here only five loaves and two fish.

                  18 He said, Bring them here to Me. 19 Then He commanded the multitudes to sit down on the grass. And He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, He blessed and broke and gave the loaves to the disciples; and the disciples gave to the multitudes. 20 So they all ate and were filled, and they took up twelve baskets full of the fragments that remained. 21 Now those who had eaten were about five thousand men, besides women and children.

                  Now, this may not be considered the exact same thing as creation week, but Jesus spoke and 5000+ people ate food that didn't exist a few moments earlier. So, for me, it isn't hard to imagine God speaking things into existence during creation and them appearing immediately.
                  In your example Jesus Blessed the Bread and Broke it. (He did not speak and multiply the fish and loaves, this is important)

                  This is also symbolic to me of something else, and why His Word is so rich. The days attributed to God's creation as you showed through scriptures elsewhere are symbolic also, and were as a teaching tool.

                  For the N.T. believers, who rest in Christ's Work from our own, that Sabbath 7th day is even more meaningful.

                  Having the point of view I have is not me saying God could not have created all in 6 days.
                  It comes from believing God made us to desire not only to have dominion over but to know and explore His creation, and be amazed and see Him IN it. The delicate balances all made by The One True God.

                  Science is not bad. btw-- there are many Scientists who are believers, Christians...If you wish to give me more information and how you came to that conclusion---(that few scientists are believers) or that people are being lead away by science in some way, that would be great.

                  I was an unbeliever and didn't believe I came from a primate...I still don't see the correlation that some do in regard to evolution, I cannot talk about evolution because I know little of it.

                  I don't think it is a salvation issue either. I just hate to see so many people believe the world and question the Bible.
                  What part of scientific exploration can be made un-bad for you?
                  I do not have the knowledge others have in this field. Science should prove God exists, but if someone is looking to prove He does not exist, I would think there are going to be a number of rabbit trails going in all directions.

                  I know one person who actually believes in evolution as taught by someone somewhere..and he is an atheist. If I believe God saw what He wanted and made a way to get there for every species on earth a manner that was not bringing them full grown into being in one day, He could do it, and it would be interesting to find out when I get home how.

                  The only possible righteousness we can obtain in this life is faith. It is the very reason for our justification in the first place. So, why not just accept what is plainly written and grow our faith in God?
                  Christians disagree with interpretation of His Word all of the time, why not accept this is again, one of those times?
                  Genesis is not a scientific book, it could not be or as I said it would be a mile long.
                  The world and everything in it had a beginning. This beginning many/most scientists agree occurred, except those who insist on something else to disprove a beginning.

                  Faith is all we really have to offer Him. That is one main point for me. Ultimately, one will not lose salvation over disbelieving Genesis unless it causes him to lose faith in God altogether. On the other hand, what kind of benefits accompany submitting our total faith in God? Plenty!
                  If someone is looking to discredit God's Word, rather than support it, I would think they are not in faith to begin with...on the shallow rocky ground. But if we are looking for God's Word to support our beliefs...it is not always going to fit, is it?

                  So best to ask to see what He sees..

                  I believe His Word is most often more than just a literal translation, it is spiritually alive--there are proven historical facts, there are parables, there are songs and prophecies. There is rich symbolism that connects His Word together making it whole.
                  Peace to you!

                  It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from Godthat is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

                  1 Corinthians 1:30

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                    Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                    Salvatin does not hinge on this issue [for some] I agree. I think all of would agree on this. I fear you may be missing the point we are driving at. No one is saying its a salvation issue.
                    If someone is saying that an interpretation different than theirs of Genesis is not the truth and makes Jesus a liar, what would you call it?

                    Non-literal to me is not something too far fetched...it is something meant to be seen in a manner that may have a greater depth to it than the words written.
                    Peace to you!

                    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from Godthat is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

                    1 Corinthians 1:30

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                      Here is an example in Genesis that has to be looked at in order to make any attempt at understanding Moses writing what God wanted him to write, to give us understanding of the fall, and the lineage of Jesus from His people that did not encompass other truths that were obviously also in motion.

                      God cast Cain out of the land. Cain was concerned others would kill him. (Where did the others come from?)
                      Cain went out and had a wife. (Where did his wife come from?) Yet in Adam and Eve narrative there were only Cain and Able.

                      So there is more that we do not know about the population on the earth. If this were not the case, we would have to believe the literal that these were the only humans on earth.
                      Peace to you!

                      It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from Godthat is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

                      1 Corinthians 1:30

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                        Originally posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
                        If someone is saying that an interpretation different than theirs of Genesis is not the truth and makes Jesus a liar, what would you call it?

                        Non-literal to me is not something too far fetched...it is something meant to be seen in a manner that may have a greater depth to it than the words written.

                        I have not said that, if I did, I misspoke or there has been a misunderstanding. There can only be one correct way to understand Genesis. ( the true truth ) If you and I hold to different views, and still love Jesus, that's ok. But we both can't be right. It can't be millions of years and 6,000 years at the same time. I am not saying you are calling Jesus a lier. No, not at all. I agree there are many layers to scripture. Types are a good example. The ark was a "type" of Jesus, those in the ark were saved, those found "in" Jesus are saved. But the ark was also a real, literal boat that saved only the 8 on earth and the animals. Two truths, one symbolic one literal. So I agree with you. There is greater depth in addition to literal words but the literal words are truth to.
                        A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

                        מקום כניעה סך הכל

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                          Originally posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
                          Here is an example in Genesis that has to be looked at in order to make any attempt at understanding Moses writing what God wanted him to write, to give us understanding of the fall, and the lineage of Jesus from His people that did not encompass other truths that were obviously also in motion.

                          God cast Cain out of the land. Cain was concerned others would kill him. (Where did the others come from?)
                          Cain went out and had a wife. (Where did his wife come from?) Yet in Adam and Eve narrative there were only Cain and Able.

                          So there is more that we do not know about the population on the earth. If this were not the case, we would have to believe the literal that these were the only humans on earth.

                          Great example. Let me try and explain if I can. The text, is sparse on details, correct. But what it says is truth. It just does not tell you everything. How could it? Lots happened no doubt. Genesis gives in essence the "highlight reel" about Cain, his story and his fall and judgement.

                          We would use common sense to fill in the blanks as to who and where these people came from. Clearly Adam and Eve had more than just a few kids. But only a few are mentioned. Incest also had to happen in the beginning. Just because we are not told the finer details does not mean the text we do have should be seen as it is.

                          Yes we would,have to make some assumptions about these missing details but it's not as hard as you might think to see what happened.

                          Adam and Eve had lots of kids no doubt. Adam lived to 930 years, that's allot of time. The family grew huge no doubt at one point. Massive indeed. Sitting around camp fires telling stories about creation and the fall.

                          Some of the kids no doubt said "These are all dumb stories, I don't beleive them or in this God you talk about" and at some point they probably left the family and hung around together.

                          Believers vs the unbelievers same as today.

                          No doubt some of the girls followed to just like today. Many Christian parents have lost kids. These kids went on to become the lost generations that God killed in the flood.
                          A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

                          מקום כניעה סך הכל

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                          • #88
                            Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                            Where did Cain get his wife?

                            https://answersingenesis.org/bible-c...e-who-was-she/
                            A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

                            מקום כניעה סך הכל

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                              Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                              Incest also had to happen in the beginning. Just because we are not told the finer details does not mean the text we do have should be seen as it is.

                              Yes we would,have to make some assumptions about these missing details but it's not as hard as you might think to see what happened.
                              "Incest had to happen". There is really no solid Biblical justification for this assumption matter how Ken Ham tries to spin it. And then getting into 'perfect genetics' also just runs further and further down the road - he has no evidence of perfect genetics except that things were very good (and I'd argue that very good does not equal perfect).
                              Do not say, Why were the old days better than these? For it is not wise to ask such questions.
                              Ecc 7:10

                              John777 exists to me only in quoted form.


                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                                Originally posted by teddyv View Post
                                "Incest had to happen". There is really no solid Biblical justification for this assumption matter how Ken Ham tries to spin it. And then getting into 'perfect genetics' also just runs further and further down the road - he has no evidence of perfect genetics except that things were very good (and I'd argue that very good does not equal perfect).
                                Ken ham did not invent this perspective, the text clearly implies it. It's only logical that Adam and Eve's kids had to mate. Incest occurs today in many places around the world so the "drive" is clearly there. It's very concievable that this would occur. The "perfect genetics" is also a very conceivable and logical theory. If God created a planet, people, animals, vegetation etc... and called it "very good" I would says that's about as perfect as one could get ( pre fall )
                                A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

                                מקום כניעה סך הכל

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