Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What Do YOU Believe?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Originally posted by Tony P View Post
    Is the triple negative by design, or a slip. If slip, then I agree with you. There are likely a multitude of factors. Honestly, if the theory of evolution is enough to cause a person to run away from Christ, they weren't likely to remain anyhow. Parable of the sower. But, ultimately that theory has caused many to stumble and it is sad indeed.
    Yes, that was a slip. Probably rewrote that sentence to many times.

    I've stated elsewhere that I believe the YEC doctrine can also be a very large stumbling block to the gospel, particularly here in the West.
    Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?” For it is not wise to ask such questions.
    Ecc 7:10

    John777 exists to me only in quoted form.


    Comment


    • #92
      Re: What Do YOU Believe?

      Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
      Great example. Let me try and explain if I can. The text, is sparse on details, correct. But what it says is truth. It just does not tell you everything. How could it? Lots happened no doubt. Genesis gives in essence the "highlight reel" about Cain, his story and his fall and judgement.

      We would use common sense to fill in the blanks as to who and where these people came from. Clearly Adam and Eve had more than just a few kids. But only a few are mentioned. Incest also had to happen in the beginning. Just because we are not told the finer details does not mean the text we do have should be seen as it is.

      Yes we would,have to make some assumptions about these missing details but it's not as hard as you might think to see what happened.

      Adam and Eve had lots of kids no doubt. Adam lived to 930 years, that's allot of time. The family grew huge no doubt at one point. Massive indeed. Sitting around camp fires telling stories about creation and the fall.

      Some of the kids no doubt said "These are all dumb stories, I don't beleive them or in this God you talk about" and at some point they probably left the family and hung around together.

      Believers vs the unbelievers same as today.

      No doubt some of the girls followed to just like today. Many Christian parents have lost kids. These kids went on to become the lost generations that God killed in the flood.
      Because it is not clear, it leads me to believe that there is symbolism of the text, that God did not give Moses more than a narrative to lead God's people toward Him and give an answer to the dilemma of sin from the fall of man that lead to death for all.

      The blanks do not have to be filled in in the manner you stated...
      Peace to you!

      It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

      1 Corinthians 1:30

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: What Do YOU Believe?

        Originally posted by teddyv View Post
        Yes, that was a slip. Probably rewrote that sentence to many times.

        I've stated elsewhere that I believe the YEC doctrine can also be a very large stumbling block to the gospel, particularly here in the West.
        That is what I was trying to say in an earlier post...and was not clear about it. (It could be said that the doctrine can push people away from The Gospel)
        Peace to you!

        It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

        1 Corinthians 1:30

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: What Do YOU Believe?

          Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
          Ken ham did not invent this perspective, the text clearly implies it. It's only logical that Adam and Eve's kids had to mate. Incest occurs today in many places around the world so the "drive" is clearly there. It's very concievable that this would occur. The "perfect genetics" is also a very conceivable and logical theory. If God created a planet, people, animals, vegetation etc... and called it "very good" I would says that's about as perfect as one could get ( pre fall )
          I never stated Ken Ham inventeded it. I was reading the article you supplied which he authored.

          The 'perfect genetics' should be a testable hypothesis. Has anyone in the YEC camp attempted to demonstrate that? I wonder what Francis Collins thinks?
          Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?” For it is not wise to ask such questions.
          Ecc 7:10

          John777 exists to me only in quoted form.


          Comment


          • #95
            Re: What Do YOU Believe?

            Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
            I have not said that, if I did, I misspoke or there has been a misunderstanding. There can only be one correct way to understand Genesis. ( the true truth ) If you and I hold to different views, and still love Jesus, that's ok. But we both can't be right. It can't be millions of years and 6,000 years at the same time. I am not saying you are calling Jesus a lier. No, not at all. I agree there are many layers to scripture. Types are a good example. The ark was a "type" of Jesus, those in the ark were saved, those found "in" Jesus are saved. But the ark was also a real, literal boat that saved only the 8 on earth and the animals. Two truths, one symbolic one literal. So I agree with you. There is greater depth in addition to literal words but the literal words are truth to.
            Since yourself and TonyP have been both answering my post to one or the other, it could have been TonyP that stated making Jesus a liar by not believing a 6 day literal creation.
            Peace to you!

            It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

            1 Corinthians 1:30

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: What Do YOU Believe?

              Originally posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
              That is what I was trying to say in an earlier post...and was not clear about it. (It could be said that the doctrine can push people away from The Gospel)
              Originally posted by teddyv View Post
              Yes, that was a slip. Probably rewrote that sentence to many times.

              I've stated elsewhere that I believe the YEC doctrine can also be a very large stumbling block to the gospel, particularly here in the West.
              How is the YEC a stumbling block in the west? Is it because many would rather believe in the textbooks of man? How is it possible for a literal reading of Genesis to be a stumbling block to the gospel?

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                Originally posted by Tony P View Post
                How is the YEC a stumbling block in the west? Is it because many would rather believe in the textbooks of man? How is it possible for a literal reading of Genesis to be a stumbling block to the gospel?
                YEC doctrine is regularly elevated as a requrement of being a member of the Christian body. Just pure legalism to my mind.

                No one here, at least recently, has admitted to it being salvific, but I have come across enough Christians in the past on this board who have told me the favourite 'make God/Jesus/Moses a liar', questioned whether I could possibly be saved for not believing in YEC. I was born and raised in Christian family and there were some days that I would feel like giving up on the whole thing because of the ungraciousness and legalism on this matter.

                Any new Christian, especially one reasonably well versed in the mainstream theories should not be harassed by these issues. I can safely say to them that there are a range of beliefs in the matter. If they ask, I can succinctly lay out my case, and I can even lay out the YEC case. I can give them leading Christian theologians and pastors that believe in a variety of positions. But I will not tell them that this is the requirement of salvation.
                Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?” For it is not wise to ask such questions.
                Ecc 7:10

                John777 exists to me only in quoted form.


                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                  Originally posted by teddyv View Post
                  Yes, that was a slip. Probably rewrote that sentence to many times.

                  I've stated elsewhere that I believe the YEC doctrine can also be a very large stumbling block to the gospel, particularly here in the West.
                  Yes, this is because here in the west, most have given "modern science" a blank check on writing the truth and have swallowed hook, line and sinker the assumptions of modern academia. Little do they realize, that Genesis has held the truth all along, right under their noses. Amazing.
                  “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

                  מקום כניעה סך הכל

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                    Originally posted by teddyv View Post
                    I never stated Ken Ham inventeded it. I was reading the article you supplied which he authored.

                    The 'perfect genetics' should be a testable hypothesis. Has anyone in the YEC camp attempted to demonstrate that? I wonder what Francis Collins thinks?

                    How do you test something like that? Something that happened 6,000 + years ago? Just because we can't test it does not mean it did not happen
                    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

                    מקום כניעה סך הכל

                    Comment


                    • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                      Originally posted by teddyv View Post
                      YEC doctrine is regularly elevated as a requrement of being a member of the Christian body. Just pure legalism to my mind.

                      No, no, no Ted. No. This is NOT a requirement for salvation. How many times does this need to be said? For some, the "stories" of Genesis can't be rectified with modern "science" for these people, it's a salvation issue. For us, already believers, it's a topic of debate. Do I feel that a non biblical interpretation leaves one missing incredible confidence ? Yes. But in hell? No.

                      No one here, at least recently, has admitted to it being salvific, but I have come across enough Christians in the past on this board who have told me the favourite 'make God/Jesus/Moses a liar', questioned whether I could possibly be saved for not believing in YEC. I was born and raised in Christian family and there were some days that I would feel like giving up on the whole thing because of the ungraciousness and legalism on this matter.

                      Well, you may have encountered some real bad theology then. It's out there. But you can't tar the lot of us by a few wild birds. Shall I tar all EV's by a few ?

                      Any new Christian, especially one reasonably well versed in the mainstream theories should not be harassed by these issues.

                      Who is harassing anyone? I am simply putting forth a case for our position. Showing people things they may have not thought about. Believe it or walk away, it's all good. The end game does not change. These are awesome issues to talk about. Exciting and uplifting. You mean man walked with real dinosaurs and still does?? Really? How??....

                      I can safely say to them that there are a range of beliefs in the matter. If they ask, I can succinctly lay out my case, and I can even lay out the YEC case. I can give them leading Christian theologians and pastors that believe in a variety of positions. But I will not tell them that this is the requirement of salvation.

                      Agree!!

                      I have to add charters here.
                      “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

                      מקום כניעה סך הכל

                      Comment


                      • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                        I was replying very specifically to TonyP's post. That is why I qualified certain parts. I am not saying you are harassing me. I am not tarring all of you, nor do I believe you are tarring all TE's.
                        Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?” For it is not wise to ask such questions.
                        Ecc 7:10

                        John777 exists to me only in quoted form.


                        Comment


                        • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                          Originally posted by teddyv View Post
                          I was replying very specifically to TonyP's post. That is why I qualified certain parts. I am not saying you are harassing me. I am not tarring all of you, nor do I believe you are tarring all TE's.
                          Ok, no worries brother. We have a vigorous debate here. Nice to see!
                          “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

                          מקום כניעה סך הכל

                          Comment


                          • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                            Originally posted by teddyv View Post
                            YEC doctrine is regularly elevated as a requrement of being a member of the Christian body. Just pure legalism to my mind.

                            No one here, at least recently, has admitted to it being salvific, but I have come across enough Christians in the past on this board who have told me the favourite 'make God/Jesus/Moses a liar', questioned whether I could possibly be saved for not believing in YEC. I was born and raised in Christian family and there were some days that I would feel like giving up on the whole thing because of the ungraciousness and legalism on this matter.

                            Any new Christian, especially one reasonably well versed in the mainstream theories should not be harassed by these issues. I can safely say to them that there are a range of beliefs in the matter. If they ask, I can succinctly lay out my case, and I can even lay out the YEC case. I can give them leading Christian theologians and pastors that believe in a variety of positions. But I will not tell them that this is the requirement of salvation.
                            Well, I don't think believing in creation is a requirement for salvation. Some that believe in Jesus don't believe in Noah's flood for example. I just don't see the profit in not believing the Bible in general. I realize many draw their paychecks in careers that require an old earth belief. But, that has no profit in the kingdom to come.

                            I also think a person can disagree and even disobey Jesus to a point without losing salvation. None of us are perfect. I just chose, by and act of my will, to believe Jesus when he said, "From the beginning of creation, God made them male and female." I realize the old earth crowd takes issue with Jesus here. That is something that I am not willing to do. That is really the only difference. Some Christian don't believe Jesus is ever going to return. Being wrong doesn't put an end to salvation unless one goes so far as to worship idols or something.

                            However, there is a difference in reward in heaven. "Some reap 30, 60, or 100 fold" Works play a part, but faith is the greatest way to deposit riches in heaven. That is why Abraham was so exalted. Without getting to deep on this matter, I will just say that it is painful to watch so many of my brothers lose out on these rewards due to lack of faith. Especially, for those who have absolutely nothing to gain in this life from the old earth theory. I don't just want people to make it to heaven by the skin of their teeth. I want them to get all they can out of it. It is forever ya know. That is why I pound the table over this issue.

                            Comment


                            • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                              Originally posted by Tony P View Post
                              How is the YEC a stumbling block in the west? Is it because many would rather believe in the textbooks of man? How is it possible for a literal reading of Genesis to be a stumbling block to the gospel?
                              I think it is fair to say we have all been blessed by books written by men.
                              I might be hanging by the skin of my teeth on this one...

                              I decided to seek out the viewpoints of those who are of the Jewish Faith.
                              The Bible cited in this article is the Tanakh, which does not include the N.T. The Jewish community is just as split up about this as the Christian community.
                              I am posting from MyJewishLearning .
                              I found this article interesting, but want you to know in advance that the author does not seem to hold to YEC.

                              http://www.myjewishlearning.com/arti...s-as-allegory/
                              Peace to you!

                              It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

                              1 Corinthians 1:30

                              Comment


                              • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                                Stretches
                                Brushes off accumulated dust

                                Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                                All we can do when we have a genuine disagreement is talk and discuss, as we now are. The truth should reveal itself with a honest and prayerful examination of all facts and angles. We may still not agree however, in the end, which is ok, God gracefully gives us much latitude it seems on these issues, as long as we accept the gospel. I do not beleive that theistic EV is compatible with the creation narrative. The only reason one would need to invoke this, is because one believes mans assumptions over Genesis.

                                Regards

                                Blue

                                "Come let us reason together " Isaiah 1:18
                                I agree :} Mostly - while I still wouldn't say I'm all for God creating through evolutionary means, I don't see any incompatibility between the creation narrative and evolution (as a God directed process and not as a philosophy in and of itself).

                                Originally posted by Tony P View Post
                                Honestly, there is no legitimate way to translate the days in Genesis 1 as long spans of time. I have tried, but it take intellectual dishonesty to create new definitions to the Hebrew words used. If someone wants to believe something else, that is fine with me. I am not responsible for anyone else's thinking, only my own.
                                Certainly. On the earlier point I would add that even if yom literally means a 24 hour period, within the context of the creation narrative its use could be something other. For example I could say, 'back in the day things were better', but I don't necessarily mean 'back in the 24 hours ago things were better'.

                                Originally posted by Tony P View Post
                                As to Luke 3 and Mark 10, both gospels make the literal Genesis interpretation the only one.

                                Luke 3 has the genealogy of Jesus all the way back to Adam. the son of God. Adam was created directly by God himself, fully formed and fully grown. Adam cannot be the product of evolution and still be called the son of God. He would be the son of the "almost Adam" if evolution were true. Either God created Adam from dust, or He didn't. Genesis has a clear point of view that is stated plainly. Luke also has this same confidence. If Adam was a product of evolution, when and how was the distinction made between Adam and the 99.9999% version of Adam? What point did that final chromosome fall into place where God said, "Aha, behold a man!" That whole thought process is strange at least.
                                Those who believe that God used evolution would probably argue at the point where God breathed into Adam's nostrils. I'm not a fan of anything other than God directly creating Adam and Eve, but it's not an insurmountable problem.

                                Originally posted by Tony P View Post
                                Finally, Mark 10 blows away any remote theory of evolution. In a discussion with the Pharisees, Jesus drops this bomb.

                                Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

                                Jesus most clearly gave his interpretation of creation. He should know, He was there. From the beginning of creation, God made them male and female. Jesus didn't say, "After eons after creation, God evolved them male and female." Now, it is plain as day what Jesus said and believed. If someone want to disagree with Jesus, fine by me. I would just rather take His word, which also confirms exactly what Genesis actually says. Everyone has to make their own choice as to what they believe.
                                You're reading into the text here. Jesus says that God 'made them male and female', and gives no indication of a time scale either way. Unless you wanted to be cheeky and take the 'from the beginning of creation' to be a reference to a long creative process I totally get where you're coming from and I don't have my feet in the other camp, but the text is a lot more open than what you're presenting it to be.

                                Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                                Ken ham did not invent this perspective, the text clearly implies it. It's only logical that Adam and Eve's kids had to mate. Incest occurs today in many places around the world so the "drive" is clearly there. It's very concievable that this would occur. The "perfect genetics" is also a very conceivable and logical theory. If God created a planet, people, animals, vegetation etc... and called it "very good" I would says that's about as perfect as one could get ( pre fall )
                                The text doesn't imply anything about where Cain sourced his wife. The text leaves open the possibility of incest, just as it leaves open the possibility that Adam and Eve weren't the only people God created. For all we know God created a wife for Cain the same way God created a wife for Adam. If it's true that we had really good genetics at the beginning, then that should be testable, right? (Has anyone gone down that investigating path?)
                                Last edited by Athanasius; Jul 10th 2016, 02:09 AM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X