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  • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Originally posted by CurtTN View Post
    I am a scientist at heart but not political science. Most of what we see today unfortunately is political. The only reason the "Theory of Evolution" exists today despite it's utter implausibility, is because it is the best the atheists have to counter God and by definition "Science" must exclude the "supernatural". An so by definition evolution must be "unguided".
    If science excludes the supernatural, then it's not in a position to address the God question. Agree or disagree over evolution and one thing should be clear, it doesn't 'counter God' by any stretch of the imagination. Agree or disagree over a YEC interpretation of Genesis and one thing should be clear, different interpretations of Genesis have been held by strong, committed Christians, and they are all still Christian. If someone doesn't agree with the YEC interpretation they are not saying that God has lied or has been misleading, or that Scripture is somehow not all true, they simply interpret the text differently.

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    • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

      Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
      If science excludes the supernatural, then it's not in a position to address the God question. Agree or disagree over evolution and one thing should be clear, it doesn't 'counter God' by any stretch of the imagination. Agree or disagree over a YEC interpretation of Genesis and one thing should be clear, different interpretations of Genesis have been held by strong, committed Christians, and they are all still Christian. If someone doesn't agree with the YEC interpretation they are not saying that God has lied or has been misleading, or that Scripture is somehow not all true, they simply interpret the text differently.
      Well said Sir.

      I just this minute finished watching an independent Sci-fi film called Terminus.

      (I didn't know what it was about before I watched it)

      Regardless, it reminded me of this conversation.
      I enjoyed that there was a spiritual aspect to the film.

      A little slow, but worth a look, not because I think it is the truth, but because I know someday God will reveal to His Children the questions we have about the How.
      Peace to you!

      It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

      1 Corinthians 1:30

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      • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

        Originally posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
        Well said Sir.

        I just this minute finished watching an independent Sci-fi film called Terminus.

        (I didn't know what it was about before I watched it)

        Regardless, it reminded me of this conversation.
        I enjoyed that there was a spiritual aspect to the film.

        A little slow, but worth a look, not because I think it is the truth, but because I know someday God will reveal to His Children the questions we have about the How.
        I'll check it out, I quite enjoy these kinds of films. I last re-watched Solaris (not the original) and that's still a disappointment, so maybe this will be better

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        • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

          Originally posted by CurtTN View Post
          I am a scientist at heart but not political science. Most of what we see today unfortunately is political. The only reason the "Theory of Evolution" exists today despite it's utter implausibility, is because it is the best the atheists have to counter God and by definition "Science" must exclude the "supernatural". An so by definition evolution must be "unguided".

          To be an authority, all scripture must be all true. To question is not a sin but to deny God's word as written can be. God may not tell us everything but He does not lie and He does not tell misleading fables. When He says "evening and morning were the first day" He is defining the time it took as Tony has said.

          Scripture is either all true or all false. If you or I are allowed to strike out what we disagree with we end up with no Bible and no Authority. "Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness". We can believe God or believe man. Since man is so often wrong, I choose God.

          Yes Curt, I concur. Once the big dog of athesitc EV was off the leash, and turned loose on the earth as truth, Christians had to find a way to compromise with such bold claims, ( dispise the lack of evidence) and TE was born. Science and the supernatual work hand in hand. Since God created the sciences and our abiblty to even understand anything in the first place, separating them is folly.

          God has stepped in many times in history with overt and subtle acts of science defying miracles.

          I am sure he still is, as: He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. Romans 8
          “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

          מקום כניעה סך הכל

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          • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

            A little slow, but worth a look, not because I think it is the truth, but because I know someday God will reveal to His Children the questions we have about the How.
            This is what it all boils down to. He already has shown us this! Are we willi to beleive him is always the question. Could the simple truth be just as Genesis says? As straightforwardly read? Yes!

            He created the world in 6 days and rested on one- as a pattern for us. Do we do this today? Yes.

            He created "kinds" of animals that reproduce after their kind. There is tremdious diversity in each created kind. ( hence the appearance of "evolution".

            We don't need anymore detail than what's already been revealed. Yes the scientist in me wants to know more, but all the tiny details will hopefully come as you say.

            …45Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, in whom you have put your hope. 46If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”…John 5
            “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

            מקום כניעה סך הכל

            Comment


            • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

              Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
              If science excludes the supernatural, then it's not in a position to address the God question. Agree or disagree over evolution and one thing should be clear, it doesn't 'counter God' by any stretch of the imagination. Agree or disagree over a YEC interpretation of Genesis and one thing should be clear, different interpretations of Genesis have been held by strong, committed Christians, and they are all still Christian. If someone doesn't agree with the YEC interpretation they are not saying that God has lied or has been misleading, or that Scripture is somehow not all true, they simply interpret the text differently.
              No your statement is incorrect. By it's own definition evolution denies God and describes a creation different than God describes. When evolution is defined as "unguided" it excludes God. Anyone is of course free to "interpret " scripture as they see it but when it requires the text to be ignored it, IMO, ceases to be an interpretation and becomes an opinion. 6, 24 hour days completely dispels the notion of billions of years.

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              • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                Yes Curt, I concur. Once the big dog of athesitc EV was off the leash, and turned loose on the earth as truth, Christians had to find a way to compromise with such bold claims, ( dispise the lack of evidence) and TE was born. Science and the supernatual work hand in hand. Since God created the sciences and our abiblty to even understand anything in the first place, separating them is folly.

                God has stepped in many times in history with overt and subtle acts of science defying miracles.

                I am sure he still is, as: He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. Romans 8
                Excellent point Bluesky. Moreover it is the natural science that uses the laws of the universe to argue their points with no recognition that it was God who created these laws and can adapt them to His purpose at anytime.

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                • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                  Originally posted by CurtTN View Post
                  No your statement is incorrect. By it's own definition evolution denies God and describes a creation different than God describes.
                  There's nothing in the definition of evolution that denies God. You're thinking of...

                  Originally posted by CurtTN View Post
                  When evolution is defined as "unguided" it excludes God.
                  'Naturalism', a philosophical position that claims evolution is an unguided process. Naturalism is not evolution is not naturalism.

                  Originally posted by CurtTN View Post
                  Anyone is of course free to "interpret " scripture as they see it but when it requires the text to be ignored it, IMO, ceases to be an interpretation and becomes an opinion. 6, 24 hour days completely dispels the notion of billions of years.
                  Not everyone agrees with the YEC interpretation of Genesis. It doesn't mean those people are ignoring the text.

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                  • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                    Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
                    There's nothing in the definition of evolution that denies God. You're thinking of...



                    'Naturalism', a philosophical position that claims evolution is an unguided process. Naturalism is not evolution is not naturalism.



                    Not everyone agrees with the YEC interpretation of Genesis. It doesn't mean those people are ignoring the text.


                    Definitions, definitions definitions. We got to all speak same language in order to debate
                    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

                    מקום כניעה סך הכל

                    Comment


                    • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                      Originally posted by bluesky22 View Post
                      Definitions, definitions definitions. We got to all speak same language in order to debate
                      Yes, Socrates, definitions are important From Merriam-Webster:

                      Evolution
                      'a theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations

                      Naturalism
                      'the doctrine that scientific laws are adequate to account for all phenomena'

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                      • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                        Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
                        There's nothing in the definition of evolution that denies God. You're thinking of...



                        'Naturalism', a philosophical position that claims evolution is an unguided process. Naturalism is not evolution is not naturalism.



                        Not everyone agrees with the YEC interpretation of Genesis. It doesn't mean those people are ignoring the text.
                        See Darwin's definition (emphasis mine)

                        Darwin's Theory of Evolution - The Premise
                        Darwin's Theory of Evolution is the widely held notion that all life is related and has descended from a common ancestor: the birds and the bananas, the fishes and the flowers -- all related. Darwin's general theory presumes the development of life from non-life and stresses a purely naturalistic (UNDIRECTED) "descent with modification". That is, complex creatures evolve from more simplistic ancestors naturally over time. In a nutshell, as random genetic mutations occur within an organism's genetic code, the beneficial mutations are preserved because they aid survival -- a process known as "natural selection." These beneficial mutations are passed on to the next generation. Over time, beneficial mutations accumulate and the result is an entirely different organism (not just a variation of the original, but an entirely different creature).

                        Undirected means without God. A single ancestor for all means God did not create things as He said He did.Now if you want to spin that Darwin was not the father of evolution then I guess you can but this is what he said.

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                        • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                          Originally posted by CurtTN View Post
                          See Darwin's definition (emphasis mine)

                          Darwin's Theory of Evolution - The Premise
                          Darwin's Theory of Evolution is the widely held notion that all life is related and has descended from a common ancestor: the birds and the bananas, the fishes and the flowers -- all related. Darwin's general theory presumes the development of life from non-life and stresses a purely naturalistic (UNDIRECTED) "descent with modification". That is, complex creatures evolve from more simplistic ancestors naturally over time. In a nutshell, as random genetic mutations occur within an organism's genetic code, the beneficial mutations are preserved because they aid survival -- a process known as "natural selection." These beneficial mutations are passed on to the next generation. Over time, beneficial mutations accumulate and the result is an entirely different organism (not just a variation of the original, but an entirely different creature).

                          Undirected means without God. A single ancestor for all means God did not create things as He said He did.Now if you want to spin that Darwin was not the father of evolution then I guess you can but this is what he said.
                          A few things:

                          - That's not Darwin's definition of evolution, it's someone describing 'Darwin's Theory of Evolution' and they've used the word 'undirected'. Where is Darwin's definition?

                          - It doesn't matter if Darwin understood his theory in naturalistic (as in the philosophy) terms, as the observation would be a philosophical addition to the scientific observation and thus distinct from the actual scientific matter. However Darwin understood evolution has no bearing on how evolution must be understood for those following him.

                          - 'Undirected' does not necessarily mean 'without God'. Undirected could mean that God setup evolutionary processes in such a way that macro-evolutionary changes are possible, and being 'undirected' means that God allowed those evolutionary processes to occur without interference. (aside: how evolution could be an undirected process is beyond me.)

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                          • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                            Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
                            Yes, Socrates, definitions are important From Merriam-Webster:

                            Evolution
                            'a theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations
                            As defined like this, I have no problem with it.

                            'a theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types ( kinds) and that the distinguishable differences are due to ( slight ) modifications in successive generations...

                            But we all know there is more to the story...
                            “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

                            מקום כניעה סך הכל

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                            • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                              Originally posted by CurtTN View Post
                              Excellent point Bluesky. Moreover it is the natural science that uses the laws of the universe to argue their points with no recognition that it was God who created these laws and can adapt them to His purpose at anytime.
                              Precisely.

                              God was once approached by a scientist who said, “Listen God, we’ve decided we don’t need you anymore. These days we can clone people, transplant organs and do all sorts of things that used to be considered miraculous.”

                              God replied, “Don’t need me huh? How about we put your theory to the test. Why don’t we have a competition to see who can make a human being, say, a male human being.”

                              The scientist agrees, so God declares they should do it like he did in the good old days when he created Adam.

                              “Fine” says the scientist as he bends down to scoop up a handful of dirt.”

                              “Whoa!” says God, shaking his head in disapproval. “Not so fast. You get your own dirt.”



                              Source: unknown
                              “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

                              מקום כניעה סך הכל

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                              • Re: What Do YOU Believe?

                                Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
                                Not everyone agrees with the YEC interpretation of Genesis. It doesn't mean those people are ignoring the text.
                                Actually, that is precisely what it means. They MUST ignore the text to fabricate another theory that they actually have more faith in, such as TE. The language in Genesis is as simple as it gets.

                                Let's look at this example.

                                Mark 11:11 "...He went out to Bethany with the twelve. 12 Now the next day, when they had come out from Bethany..."

                                How do we interpret this verse? Did Jesus go to Bethany during one 24 hour period, and then leave Bethany in another 24 hour period immediately following the first one? The next day is the next day, right? Would it be reasonable to interpret this verse as Jesus going to Bethany, then 100 million years later he comes out of Bethany? Of course, not. That would be ridiculous. Plain language is easy to understand when it isn't controversial. Scripture only becomes controversial when we raise a conflicting worldly theory to the level of scripture, or even raise it above scripture. Now, to Genesis.

                                Genesis 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
                                Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
                                Genesis 1:13 So the evening and the morning were the third day. [Etc]

                                A day is a day. In case it were hard to understand, God also added, "evening and morning" to each day. The text is simple and straightforward. The only way to "create" a different comprehension of simple and plain words is to not believe them in the first place. If you want to be honest here, you have to realize this elementary truth. The text says what it says and it isn't difficult to read. I may be difficult to believe, but that is another matter entirely. Therefore, it comes down to this. What do you believe, Genesis or a TE theory? The entire matter is one of faith and belief, in scripture or the world. People are very creative trying to have it both ways and claim they believe God created the world and then believe evolution. This is totally illogical and incompatible.

                                Jesus believed in Genesis as it is written literally.
                                Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’


                                While we are on the topic, let me raise a hypothetical question.
                                A bunch of scholars came out and said this: "We now have absolute proof the Jesus was just a nice guy and NOT the Son of God. In fact, there is no God and we have all the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist. Here are 100 reams of documents that prove Jesus is not the Son of God and God doesn't even exist."
                                What you believe them? I hope not. Here is the million dollar question. Why not? Why wouldn't you believe the hypothetical "scholars" and all their evidence about Jesus not being the son of God and that God doesn't exist?

                                Once you answer that question for yourself, then ask this. Why then would I believe the "scholars" of science when it comes to the earth being billions of years old and man evolving from monkeys and fish? This is the same concept as the hypothetical question about Jesus and God above. If we can reject the hypothetical scholars/world about their Jesus and God falsehood, why then wouldn't we also reject all the old earth theories the "scholars" create that totally contradict Genesis as well? Who do we really believe? That is the choice we all have. The text itself in Genesis isn't complicated. Believing the world yields only the praise of men. Believing scripture yields the praise of God. Which is more important in the end?

                                Now, I have to admit something. The above hypothetical question about the scholars saying Jesus is not the son of God and that God doesn't exist isn't a hypothetical question at all. It is a true question. When I said scholars, you may have pictured English speaking scholars. Christianity just so happens to dominate much of the English speaking world. Therefore, we have many English speaking scholars that profess that Jesus is indeed the Son of God and that God is indeed real.

                                However, in other parts of the world this isn't the case. Muslim scholars that worship the moon god do not believe Jesus is the Son of God. They have all the "evidence" they need to prove it. Chinese scholars, at least the vast majority, do not believe God exists at all. They have all the proof they need to support their atheism. We cannot all be right. If the muslim and Chinese scholars can be so wrong about such important matters, why can't science scholar be wrong about the old earth? Who do we really believe and why? That is the million dollar question.

                                It may be easy to reject scholars simply because they are from another culture and language, but it is much more difficult to reject scholars who look like us and speak our language. That is the only real difference here. Jesus coined the phrase "a wolf in sheeps clothing." If the wolves were obvious, they would be wolves in wolves clothing. The very fact that the wolves are so well disguised in sheeps clothing is the key point. Sometimes the one that look like us and talk like us are not of us. They are of another power. TE comes from that power, IMHO.

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