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  • #31
    Re: The Saving Faith

    Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
    What is the destination of an entry level Christian verses and abundantly saved one ?
    Ha... I was gonna ask the same

    As I've been mentioning in these series of thread by Epi... a babe in Christ is JUST as righteous as a mature Christian because it's the righteousness of Christ is the reason for eternal positioning "with" God.
    --
    Slug1--out

    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

    ~John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?~ (Jesus is Eternal - existed before becoming a man)

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    • #32
      Re: The Saving Faith

      Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
      Ha... I was gonna ask the same

      As I've been mentioning in these series of thread by Epi... a babe in Christ is JUST as righteous as a mature Christian because it's the righteousness of Christ is the reason for eternal positioning "with" God.
      This is true.

      But some will say..."hey, that ain't fair, I worked harder."

      I refer to Jesus teaching regarding the workers in the field.
      Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: The Saving Faith

        Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
        Ha... I was gonna ask the same

        As I've been mentioning in these series of thread by Epi... a babe in Christ is JUST as righteous as a mature Christian because it's the righteousness of Christ is the reason for eternal positioning "with" God.
        If not more. While we do grow in sanctification, God certainly shows favor to the newborns. I love hanging with new converts because you can just feel God's favor on them. I can't explain it.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: The Saving Faith

          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
          Ha... I was gonna ask the same

          As I've been mentioning in these series of thread by Epi... a babe in Christ is JUST as righteous as a mature Christian because it's the righteousness of Christ is the reason for eternal positioning "with" God.
          Originally posted by keck553 View Post
          This is true.

          But some will say..."hey, that ain't fair, I worked harder."

          I refer to Jesus teaching regarding the workers in the field.
          Amen and again I say, AMEN!
          Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: The Saving Faith

            Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
            Amen and again I say, AMEN!
            well Amen bro, LOL
            Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

            2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: The Saving Faith

              Originally posted by keck553 View Post
              Peter is teaching scripture with scripture.

              Proverbs 11:31
              of course, he was teaching scripture with scripture. And I want to see how you harmonise this his particular teaching with your point of view concerning salvation.

              And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?-- 1Peter 4:18-19

              Here Peter is saying the even the very righteous, the justified hardly gets saved. How do you harmonise this statement with your take on salvation.

              a direct answer please?
              Emeke Odili is a Christian Teacher, Preacher, Author, Writer and Blogger. He has a divinely given vision of practically teaching people how to make success in life through absolute righteousness and faith. Emeke is married to his best friend, Joy. He shares life-transforming articles at his blog: www.righteousfaith.wordpress.com

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: The Saving Faith

                Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
                James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). *Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

                In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

                1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
                2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
                3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

                In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a heart that is right with God.

                God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

                Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

                *So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

                *Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

                *It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
                There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.--Romans 8:1

                This scripture above clearly says there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. Then conditions immediately follows: "Who walk not after flesh, but after the Spirit".

                If this above scripture is true, then the corollary is also true like this:

                There is therefore now condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk after the flesh, but not after the Spirit.

                Here is the seconding scripture to this:
                For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Romans 8:13

                In the above scripture, we are presented again with an 'if clause'. It says if we that are Christians live after the flesh we shall die. And of course, die here isn't talking about physical death. Because even true believers still die physically (or sleep). Die here is referring to second death, eternal damnation.

                What is your take on these scriptures and how do you marry it with your doctrine.
                Emeke Odili is a Christian Teacher, Preacher, Author, Writer and Blogger. He has a divinely given vision of practically teaching people how to make success in life through absolute righteousness and faith. Emeke is married to his best friend, Joy. He shares life-transforming articles at his blog: www.righteousfaith.wordpress.com

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: The Saving Faith

                  Originally posted by emekrus View Post
                  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.--Romans 8:1

                  This scripture above clearly says there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. Then conditions immediately follows: "Who walk not after flesh, but after the Spirit".

                  If this above scripture is true, then the corollary is also true like this:

                  There is therefore now condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk after the flesh, but not after the Spirit.

                  Here is the seconding scripture to this:
                  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Romans 8:13

                  In the above scripture, we are presented again with an 'if clause'. It says if we that are Christians live after the flesh we shall die. And of course, die here isn't talking about physical death. Because even true believers still die physically (or sleep). Die here is referring to second death, eternal damnation.

                  What is your take on these scriptures and how do you marry it with your doctrine.
                  Don't forget the verses that come before and after that. Context..

                  Romans 8:1-11: "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

                  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you"

                  The verses repeat, revealing more information each time as confirmation, which ties everything together. It even confirms the meaning of "to be IN Christ" but if you don't read the verses in CONTEXT you miss it.

                  Looking closely it actually says "those who are IN Christ Jesus (who do not walk according to the flesh)" - this is confirmation that those who do not willfully and habitually walk according to the flesh are those who are IN Christ.

                  It goes on to say "But YOU" (believers) are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. Confirmation again.

                  No condemnation to those IN Christ Jesus
                  Those IN Christ are those who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them (believers)
                  Those in Christ (with the Holy Spirit) are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit (believers)
                  "That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in "US" "WHO" walk according to the Spirit (believers)
                  Those without the Holy Spirit are not His and they continuously live in the flesh (non believers)

                  And can't forget to mention the promise (assurance). Actually this is another clear evidence: "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you" - it says "If the Spirit dwells in you".
                  Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: The Saving Faith

                    Originally posted by emekrus View Post
                    of course, he was teaching scripture with scripture. And I want to see how you harmonise this his particular teaching with your point of view concerning salvation.
                    I don't have a point of view. God is the One who saves. I have nothing to do with it.
                    Originally posted by emekrus View Post
                    And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?-- 1Peter 4:18-19

                    Here Peter is saying the even the very righteous, the justified hardly gets saved. How do you harmonise this statement with your take on salvation.

                    a direct answer please?
                    I don't have a "take" on salvation.

                    God's take on Salvation:

                    "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."

                    Do you not understand this simple statement? Salvation has nothing to do with your works, righteous or otherwise. Period.

                    If your exegesis of Peter disagrees with Paul, your exegesis is in error. It's that simple. Please go back to the drawing board.
                    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: The Saving Faith

                      Originally posted by keck553 View Post
                      If your exegesis of Peter disagrees with Paul, your exegesis is in error. It's that simple. Please go back to the drawing board.
                      Bingo... Works based salvation ALWAYS finds a way to isolate scripture to prove a point. It never, NEVER, co-exists or harmonizes with the entirety of scripture. It always conflicts with the other books, chapters , verses of scripture. In other words, it just doesn't fit with the whole counsel of God.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: The Saving Faith

                        Originally posted by Pbminimum View Post
                        Bingo... Works based salvation ALWAYS finds a way to isolate scripture to prove a point. It never, NEVER, co-exists or harmonizes with the entirety of scripture. It always conflicts with the other books, chapters , verses of scripture. In other words, it just doesn't fit with the whole counsel of God.
                        Pb, this subject should bother all christians. for the most part, believers just blow it off claiming they have 'believed' and continue walking in the flesh.

                        basically sounds dangerous to me.

                        mailman has basically nailed it, great post my friend...

                        Don't forget the verses that come before and after that. Context..

                        Romans 8:1-11: "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

                        But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you"

                        The verses repeat, revealing more information each time as confirmation, which ties everything together. It even confirms the meaning of "to be IN Christ" but if you don't read the verses in CONTEXT you miss it.

                        Looking closely it actually says "those who are IN Christ Jesus (who do not walk according to the flesh)" - this is confirmation that those who do not willfully and habitually walk according to the flesh are those who are IN Christ.

                        It goes on to say "But YOU" (believers) are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. Confirmation again.

                        No condemnation to those IN Christ Jesus
                        Those IN Christ are those who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them (believers)
                        Those in Christ (with the Holy Spirit) are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit (believers)
                        "That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in "US" "WHO" walk according to the Spirit (believers)
                        Those without the Holy Spirit are not His and they continuously live in the flesh (non believers)

                        And can't forget to mention the promise (assurance). Actually this is another clear evidence: "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you" - it says "If the Spirit dwells in you".
                        the answer simply i believe is that: sure salvation is not of works, but...

                        but it doesn't end there. nope we are new creatures in Christ and the Lord lives within. we go walking away from the Lord and He tries to get us back as a good shepherd.

                        but we have free will to refuse.

                        in the end the Lord just may let us go.
                        Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

                        2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: The Saving Faith

                          Originally posted by keck553 View Post
                          I don't have a point of view. God is the One who saves. I have nothing to do with it.


                          I don't have a "take" on salvation.

                          God's take on Salvation:

                          "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."

                          Do you not understand this simple statement? Salvation has nothing to do with your works, righteous or otherwise. Period.

                          If your exegesis of Peter disagrees with Paul, your exegesis is in error. It's that simple. Please go back to the drawing board.
                          No it is not my exegesis. It is scripture that I quoted. I am saying the exact thing, that particular scripture says int he book of Peter. So I want to see your 'right exegesis' and how you harmonise it with your belief.
                          Emeke Odili is a Christian Teacher, Preacher, Author, Writer and Blogger. He has a divinely given vision of practically teaching people how to make success in life through absolute righteousness and faith. Emeke is married to his best friend, Joy. He shares life-transforming articles at his blog: www.righteousfaith.wordpress.com

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: The Saving Faith

                            Originally posted by emekrus View Post
                            No it is not my exegesis. It is scripture that I quoted. I am saying the exact thing, that particular scripture says int he book of Peter. So I want to see your 'right exegesis' and how you harmonise it with your belief.
                            I've already explained it to you in your other thread regarding "working out salvation." Please read it.
                            Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: The Saving Faith

                              Originally posted by emekrus View Post
                              But saint James says we are not saved by Faith only but with works as well. Below is the exact words of James:

                              Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.--James 2:24

                              What do you make of this?
                              I think we need to make a distinction between the works of the law that Paul spoke about in Romans and the works of faith spoken of by James here.

                              By the works of the law no man can be justified...this was Paul's point. James is making the point that true faith will always be acted upon and produce fruit. He wasn't saying that we are saved by faith AND keeping the law of Moses. I think this is an important distinction to make. James is simply saying if we truly believe something then our actions will reflect that. There is no such thing as "works based salvation" but there is such a thing as a faith that produces works that lead us to even greater faith.

                              Ro 1:17-18 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
                              Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: The Saving Faith

                                Originally posted by mailmandan View Post
                                Don't forget the verses that come before and after that. Context..

                                Romans 8:1-11: "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

                                But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you"

                                The verses repeat, revealing more information each time as confirmation, which ties everything together. It even confirms the meaning of "to be IN Christ" but if you don't read the verses in CONTEXT you miss it.

                                Looking closely it actually says "those who are IN Christ Jesus (who do not walk according to the flesh)" - this is confirmation that those who do not willfully and habitually walk according to the flesh are those who are IN Christ.

                                It goes on to say "But YOU" (believers) are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. Confirmation again.

                                No condemnation to those IN Christ Jesus
                                Those IN Christ are those who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them (believers)
                                Those in Christ (with the Holy Spirit) are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit (believers)
                                "That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in "US" "WHO" walk according to the Spirit (believers)
                                Those without the Holy Spirit are not His and they continuously live in the flesh (non believers)

                                And can't forget to mention the promise (assurance). Actually this is another clear evidence: "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you" - it says "If the Spirit dwells in you".
                                You know what Sir, I actually know many a Spirit filled believer, who habitually walk in the flesh and even back their fleshly walks with scriptures. What do you make of this?

                                Then going on to another scripture, written to Christian this time, not unbelievers... This particular scripture:
                                Galatians 5:19-21
                                19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
                                20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
                                21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


                                The above scripture was directed to believers. It says the ones who carry out the works of the flesh, though they are already Christians and Spirit filled won't inherit the Kingdom of God. What do you also make of this?
                                Emeke Odili is a Christian Teacher, Preacher, Author, Writer and Blogger. He has a divinely given vision of practically teaching people how to make success in life through absolute righteousness and faith. Emeke is married to his best friend, Joy. He shares life-transforming articles at his blog: www.righteousfaith.wordpress.com

                                Comment

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