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Did Samuel rise from the dead?

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  • divaD
    replied
    Originally posted by Bladers View Post
    Well, actually. This does not prove anything, it actually adds to my conclusion.

    The verse says, he also dead because he enquired counsel from a familiar spirit. Even though it means that God had nothing to do with him going to contact the medium, It does not dismiss that he must have intervened because he still got a true & right counsel from the real samuel.


    bladers, in all fairness, I can see how your conclusions here could be correct. I can see the perspective that you're seeing this from, thus I can understand how you draw that conclusion. It would have to be a fact, that Samuel, could only have known what the future held for Saul, via the Lord. So in that sense, the Lord would have had to have been directly involved. But truthfully, I don't even really question this part nor really have an issue with it, The part that I'm wondering about is the how?

    The question then is, or perhaps has always been, how did Samuel's spirit rise from the dead in order to speak with Saul? Via the Holy Spirit, or via an evil spirit?

    Leave a comment:


  • Bladers
    replied
    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
    14 And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.


    I would think that these verses should clear up whether God had anything directly to do with Saul inquiring of the medium in 1 Sam 28.
    Well, actually. This does not prove anything, it actually adds to my conclusion.

    The verse says, he also dead because he enquired counsel from a familiar spirit. Even though it means that God had nothing to do with him going to contact the medium, It does not dismiss that he must have intervened because he still got a true & right counsel from the real samuel.

    Leave a comment:


  • Prophet Daniel
    replied
    Well done

    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
    14 And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.


    I would think that these verses should clear up whether God had anything directly to do with Saul inquiring of the medium in 1 Sam 28.
    Well done I knew there is a scripture somewhere explaining this!
    Remember God instructing the lying spirits in the case of Ahab?

    Leave a comment:


  • divaD
    replied
    1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
    14 And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.


    I would think that these verses should clear up whether God had anything directly to do with Saul inquiring of the medium in 1 Sam 28.

    Leave a comment:


  • karenoka27
    replied
    I was just reading in this chapter this morning.
    Personally, I think the whole issue was between God and Saul. Did Samuel rise up and speak to Saul and did the witch of Endor see him? Yes. God is not a liar and His Word is truth.

    If I were a witch or called myself one for profit telling people what "I" saw, I certainly would be frightened if I ever really saw someone! yikes!

    As someone mentioned, this witch did not know it was Saul,so she thought she was just pulling another leg.

    Saul went there to see Samuel and somehow, God allowed for the meeting.
    I found it interesting that Samuel knew what was going on in Saul's life. How is that possible unless God Himself sent Samuel?

    I myself am trying to understand all of this. I would be careful,however, to not call God a liar. If His Word says that it was Samuel..I would think that it would be safe to say,....it was Samuel.
    1Samuel28:15-"Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
    "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."
    16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."

    Leave a comment:


  • divaD
    replied
    Originally posted by Bladers View Post
    I believe she did not scream because she realized that was saul, but she screamed because she realized that
    wasn't a fimiliar spirit. But the real samuel.
    My conclusion is that 'familiar spirit' isn't defined in the manner that you are defining it. According to the Hebrew, it means medium, one who brings up the dead, etc. And that's exactly what this woman did. And this also fits the context.

    Also, it seems pretty obvious in verse 13: And the king said unto her, Be not afraid...this was in relation to this: Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

    Apparently the woman was in fear for her life. Not because of the spirit in which she saw, but because she realized that this person inquiring of her services was Saul. Sure, she made the connection to Saul when she recognized the spirit as Samuel, and that's exactly what caused her to cry out. She knew that this was Saul, and she feared for her life because of it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bladers
    replied
    Originally posted by Sirus View Post
    I agree, which is why I was confused and still am that you asked me for scripture.
    Well i asked for scripture, because if it can be supported from somewhere else in the scripture. That would be great!

    Leave a comment:


  • Sirus
    replied
    Originally posted by Bladers View Post
    Samuel 28:13 - "Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
    And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”


    I believe the woman's cry, the word of God referring the spirit as the real Samuel, and the prophesy he gave is the key here.

    First she did not know the man she was helping was saul.
    Second, the woman knew samuel.
    Third, when she saw samuel she cried out. Why did she cry out? because it was the real samuel. And she knew if it was the real samuel then the person she is helping would be saul, then she turned and spoke to saul.

    I believe she did not scream because she realized that was saul, but she screamed because she realized that wasn't a fimiliar spirit. But the real samuel.
    My conclusion is; i believe God intervened and brought samuel, but it had nothing to do with her...
    I agree, which is why I was confused and still am that you asked me for scripture.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bladers
    replied
    Originally posted by chad View Post
    He Bethany,

    There seems to be two lines of thougt on this.

    1) If you believe the witch actually contacted samuels spirit and samuel spirit did rise from the ground. (Doesnt that prove, the Witch can actually contact the real spirit of Samual, not a demon spirit pretending to be Samuel)

    The spirit of Sameul also recognises Saul (vs 15) and Saul actually talks to the spirit, rather than through a medium.

    (Vs14) Saul asks the woman what does he look like? Saul knew it was Samuel and he bowed down with his face on the ground.

    Interesting though in vs 13. NIV says it is a spirit coming up (out of the ground). vs 14 in the JKV says I saw Gods ascending out of the earth. Possibly why the the woman cried out.


    2) If you believe that It was a demon pretending to be Samuel, then saul and the witch are decieved.


    Chad.
    The witch was already deceived because she is a witch, lol!

    Leave a comment:


  • chad
    replied
    He Bethany,

    There seems to be two lines of thougt on this.

    1) If you believe the witch actually contacted samuels spirit and samuel spirit did rise from the ground. (Doesnt that prove, the Witch can actually contact the real spirit of Samual, not a demon spirit pretending to be Samuel)

    The spirit of Sameul also recognises Saul (vs 15) and Saul actually talks to the spirit, rather than through a medium.

    (Vs14) Saul asks the woman what does he look like? Saul knew it was Samuel and he bowed down with his face on the ground.

    Interesting though in vs 13. NIV says it is a spirit coming up (out of the ground). vs 14 in the JKV says I saw Gods ascending out of the earth. Possibly why the the woman cried out.


    2) If you believe that It was a demon pretending to be Samuel, then saul and the witch are decieved.


    Chad.


    Originally posted by Bethany67 View Post
    As an ex-witch, I have to say I think that's right experientally. All our stuff to contact the dead wasn't really the dead (or our pet deities or local benign spirits or whatever); it was demonic. They definitely weren't what they claimed, when I perceived them with their 'masks' off. Ick.

    However, in this particular case, if you hold that the summoned Samuel was a deceiving spirit rather than Samuel himself, you're reading into it something which the Biblical text doesn't actually say and which the author wouldn't have intended to his original readers. Eisegesis. I have to conclude that on this one occasion God did permit Samuel to return in order to deliver judgement. To those who say God wouldn't work His purposes through the witch, He certainly allowed Satan to attack Job in order that God be glorified.

    I need to pull together some thoughts on what happened to Sheol after Christ's death and resurrection (Eph 4, 1 Pet 3), and whether that makes a difference to the witch of Endor's THEN and our NOW.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bladers
    replied
    Samuel 28:13 - "Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
    And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”


    I believe the woman's cry, the word of God referring the spirit as the real Samuel, and the prophesy he gave is the key here.

    First she did not know the man she was helping was saul.
    Second, the woman knew samuel.
    Third, when she saw samuel she cried out. Why did she cry out? because it was the real samuel. And she knew if it was the real samuel then the person she is helping would be saul, then she turned and spoke to saul.

    I believe she did not scream because she realized that was saul, but she screamed because she realized that wasn't a fimiliar spirit. But the real samuel.
    My conclusion is; i believe God intervened and brought samuel, but it had nothing to do with her...

    Leave a comment:


  • Enoch365
    replied
    The Old and New Testaments treat witchcraft as an evil, rebellious, and loathsome practice. Those who practiced it were not tolerated. “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live,” (Exodus 22:18).

    Moses cautioned the children of Israel: “When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable way of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God. The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord has not permitted you to do so” (Deuteronomy 18:9-14).

    With respect to the evil kind Manasseh who reigned in Jerusalem fifty five years the Bible states: “He did evil in the eyes of the Lord, followed the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites” (2 Chronicles 33:2). “He sacrificed his sons in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the Lord, provoking him to anger” (2 Chronicles 33:6).

    When Samuel reproved King Saul, he compared rebellion to the sin of divination and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Witchcraft includes both divination and idolatry. “For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you as king” (1 Samuel 23). If Saul was rejected by God for rebellion and arrogance so will a modern day person who practices or permits himself or herself to be entertained by witchcraft and idolatry.

    The Living Bible clearly addresses the fate of those who delve or as C. S. Lewis labeled “lust” for the occult: “The Lord has rejected you because you welcome foreigners from the East who practice magic and communicate with evil spirits” (Isaiah 2:6). “Crawl into the caves in the rocks and hide in terror from his glorious majesty, for the day is coming when your proud looks will be brought low; the Lord alone will be exalted. On that day the Lord of Hosts will move against the proud and haughty and bring them to dust… All the glory of mankind will bow low; the pride of men will like in the dust, and the Lord alone will be exalted. And all idols will be utterly abolished and destroyed” (Isaiah 2:10-18).

    Paul in Galatians 5:19-21 ascribes witchcraft as a deed of the flesh. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy, drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.” It is interesting to note that Paul’s warning is to the churches of Galatia whose members are already Christians. They are warned that by engaging in sinful conduct they would not inherit the kingdom of God. The warning is to those who have accepted Christ. The modern day Christian who is entertained or allows his or her children to be entertained and/or participate in the works of the flesh, which includes witchcraft, should give serious heed to this warning.

    White magic and black magic are not acceptable in Christianity and there is no such thing as “cheap grace”. Christ died on the cross to forgive us for our sins, yet there is no excuse to take sin lightly. Engaging in any sin including sorcery opens one to demonic oppression and with persistent sinful conduct possession.

    One cannot rationalize that one is not engaged in witchcraft but merely being entertained by books or movies whose characters participate in witchcraft, even though the protagonists are “good” witches.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bethany67
    replied
    Originally posted by chad View Post
    I have heard modern day church teaching which states that mediums who consult the dead by familiar spirits, are actually consulting demons?

    This modern day teaching tends to confuse the issue a little. Some seem to think that the medium is consulting a familiar spirit (demon), where as some believe that Samuels spirit was brought up from sheol, the abode of the dead for both the righteous and unrighteous in the OT.
    As an ex-witch, I have to say I think that's right experientally. All our stuff to contact the dead wasn't really the dead (or our pet deities or local benign spirits or whatever); it was demonic. They definitely weren't what they claimed, when I perceived them with their 'masks' off. Ick.

    However, in this particular case, if you hold that the summoned Samuel was a deceiving spirit rather than Samuel himself, you're reading into it something which the Biblical text doesn't actually say and which the author wouldn't have intended to his original readers. Eisegesis. I have to conclude that on this one occasion God did permit Samuel to return in order to deliver judgement. To those who say God wouldn't work His purposes through the witch, He certainly allowed Satan to attack Job in order that God be glorified.

    I need to pull together some thoughts on what happened to Sheol after Christ's death and resurrection (Eph 4, 1 Pet 3), and whether that makes a difference to the witch of Endor's THEN and our NOW.

    Leave a comment:


  • divaD
    replied
    Originally posted by Lefty View Post
    and his conclusion is that the apparition is a demon..That the devil, by the divine permission, should be able to personate
    Samuel is not strange, since he can transform himself into an angel of light! nor is it strange that he should be
    permitted to do it upon this occasion, that Saul might be driven to despair, by enquiring of the devil, since he would
    not, in a right manner, enquire of the Lord, by which he might have had comfort.


    Personally, I don't come to that conclusion, that this apparition was a demon, and not Samuel. How would this demon be able to foretell the future, then be spot on about it? I thought that demons mostly lied and deceived? Why would this assumed one be speaking truth? Also, I've read markedwards' conclusions in this thread. I would have to say that I agree with them. The text specifically states that it was Samuel. There is no indication anywhere in the text that is anyone other than Samuel's spirit.

    Also while I'm thinking about it, where is bladers? I don't believe he has ever expressed his conclusions, even tho he's the one who started this thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • chad
    replied
    From Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol


    Sheol (pronounced "Sheh-ole")[1], in Hebrew שאול (Sh'ol), is the "abode of the dead", the "underworld", "the common grave of mankind" or "pit".[2] Sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job.

    Sheol is sometimes compared to Hades, the gloomy, twilight afterlife of Greek mythology. The word "hades" was in fact substituted for "sheol" when the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek (see Septuagint).

    The New Testament (written in Greek) also uses "hades" to refer to the abode of the dead.

    By the second century BC, Jews who accepted the Oral Torah had come to believe that those in sheol awaited the resurrection either in comfort (in the bosom of Abraham) or in torment. This belief is reflected in Jesus' story of Lazarus and Dives. At that time Jews who rejected the Oral Torah believed that Sheol meant simply the grave.


    I have heard modern day church teaching which states that mediums who consult the dead by familiar spirits, are actually consulting demons?

    This modern day teaching tends to confuse the issue a little. Some seem to think that the medium is consulting a familiar spirit (demon), where as some believe that Samuels spirit was brought up from sheol, the abode of the dead for both the righteous and unrighteous in the OT.




    Chad

    Leave a comment:

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