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Did Samuel rise from the dead?

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  • oneinthespirit
    replied
    samuel was a prophet. The bible says that God did not answer Saul at all. Not even through dreams, visions, nor PROPHETS, so if God did'nt answer him through live prophets why would he answer him through dead prophets?

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  • Zack702
    replied
    I would say rather Samuel's spirit was contacted by Saul's or perhaps even a angel of the Lord which caused the event.

    It is interesting that the woman saw Samuel.

    Saul said contact Samuel to the woman.
    The woman saw what she thought was a god comming out of the earth.
    Saul is revealed to her and he asks the woman to describe what she sees.
    She said she sees a old man with a mantle and she thought it was a god.
    Then Saul stoops down and channels words in the voice of Samuel.

    Seams to me that both of them are recieving a vision from God but Saul was the one who was expecting it.

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  • oneinthespirit
    replied
    Originally posted by Bladers View Post
    So basically, what is your conclusion?
    My conclusion friend, is that Moses and Elijahs' spirits were taken by God, so God therefore could use them when ever and however he wants (note: John the Baptist, which had the spirit of Elijah. Matt. 17:12, 13.). they were not demons.

    And the Samuel that Saul saw was just a counterfiet of him. Read that passage again, and ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand, cause obviously our help is'nt helping you understand.

    But you can ask more questions, and whoever knows the answers will help.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bladers
    replied
    Originally posted by oneinthespirit View Post
    hey

    If you notice, Moses died in the land of Moab, And God buried him in a valley. So God at that point had control of Moses' body and spirit. The bible clearly says "but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day." Deut. 34:6

    And Elijah was taken by a chariot of fire, so again God had control over his body and soul/spirit.

    They both were taken by God himself, and appeared unto Jesus directly by God.
    In Revelation 11, it talks about the two witnesses that will come at the end times. And if you notice verse 6, it clearly describes these two wits. and the description of what can and DID do.

    It says "these have powers to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have powers over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."

    During Moses' attempt to free the Hebrews, God through Moses, turned the waters into blood, and casted plagues upon the earth.
    God sent a drought through Elijah and shut the heavens for 3 years until Elijah's word was spoken to rain again.

    So their souls/spirits were taken from them personally to be used in the future. That explains them appearing to Jesus. The only thing that can be questioned about that particular event in the bible is, What did they conversate about?
    So basically, what is your conclusion?

    Leave a comment:


  • divaD
    replied
    Originally posted by Lefty View Post
    I don't see an indication in the text that it's anyone other than Samuel's spirit either, but still I'm not convinced. And just so I don't get accused of calling God a liar by not holding to a literal interpretation again, I'll hide behind Matthew Henry again and let him take the shots. Maybe the quote of his I pulled didn't show his point of view clearly so I'll give this link here, and let anyone read his commentary who wants to. He's supposed to be a smart guy, and he's certainly presenting the view that this was a demon, not Samuel. Me, I'm not a scholar, not 100% sure, but his ideas deserve a place in this discussion.

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc2.ix.xxix.html

    About the prediction; yes it did come true, but does it really bear the marks of the Holy Spirit? Was'nt it designed to drive him to despair? That's the mark of Satan;
    III. It is cold comfort which this evil spirit in Samuel's mantle gives to Saul, and is manifestly intended to drive him to despair and self-murder. Had it been the true Samuel, when Saul desired to be told what he should do he would have told him to repent and make his peace with God, and recall David from his banishment, and would then have told him that he might hope in this way to find mercy with God; but, instead of that, he represents his case as helpless and hopeless, serving him as he did Judas, to whom he was first a tempter and then a tormentor, persuading him first to sell his master and then to hang himself.

    We know how Saul died. Was it really different than Judas?

    Leviticus 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them


    This is what Leviticus has to say about the matter. With that in mind, it seems unreasonable to conclude that the Holy Spirit worked thru the woman in 1 Sam 28 in order to raise Samuel's spirit.

    Apparently this wasn't a minor matter back then. If these folks couldn't really make contact with the dead, then why was their punishment so great?

    And we have to look at this from Samuel's perspective. If his spirit had been awken by the woman medium, what was Samuel supposed to do when confronted with Saul? Lie to him? This still doesn't mean that God initially had anything to do with the raising of Samuel's spirit, but that doesn't mean that He couldn't have used that opportunity to relay a
    msg to Saul thru Samuel. As we can see, the msg was not good, but it was indeed true.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lefty
    replied
    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    Personally, I don't come to that conclusion, that this apparition was a demon, and not Samuel. How would this demon be able to foretell the future, then be spot on about it? I thought that demons mostly lied and deceived? Why would this assumed one be speaking truth? Also, I've read markedwards' conclusions in this thread. I would have to say that I agree with them. The text specifically states that it was Samuel. There is no indication anywhere in the text that is anyone other than Samuel's spirit.
    I don't see an indication in the text that it's anyone other than Samuel's spirit either, but still I'm not convinced. And just so I don't get accused of calling God a liar by not holding to a literal interpretation again, I'll hide behind Matthew Henry again and let him take the shots. Maybe the quote of his I pulled didn't show his point of view clearly so I'll give this link here, and let anyone read his commentary who wants to. He's supposed to be a smart guy, and he's certainly presenting the view that this was a demon, not Samuel. Me, I'm not a scholar, not 100% sure, but his ideas deserve a place in this discussion.

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc2.ix.xxix.html

    About the prediction; yes it did come true, but does it really bear the marks of the Holy Spirit? Was'nt it designed to drive him to despair? That's the mark of Satan;
    III. It is cold comfort which this evil spirit in Samuel's mantle gives to Saul, and is manifestly intended to drive him to despair and self-murder. Had it been the true Samuel, when Saul desired to be told what he should do he would have told him to repent and make his peace with God, and recall David from his banishment, and would then have told him that he might hope in this way to find mercy with God; but, instead of that, he represents his case as helpless and hopeless, serving him as he did Judas, to whom he was first a tempter and then a tormentor, persuading him first to sell his master and then to hang himself.

    We know how Saul died. Was it really different than Judas?

    Leave a comment:


  • oneinthespirit
    replied
    Originally posted by Bladers View Post
    How do you explain moses and elijah appearing to Jesus, were they demons too?

    Nevertheless, the bible stated that it was samuel and that he told saul the future and it came to pass. How do you explain that?

    hey

    If you notice, Moses died in the land of Moab, And God buried him in a valley. So God at that point had control of Moses' body and spirit. The bible clearly says "but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day." Deut. 34:6

    And Elijah was taken by a chariot of fire, so again God had control over his body and soul/spirit.

    They both were taken by God himself, and appeared unto Jesus directly by God.
    In Revelation 11, it talks about the two witnesses that will come at the end times. And if you notice verse 6, it clearly describes these two wits. and the description of what can and DID do.

    It says "these have powers to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have powers over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."

    During Moses' attempt to free the Hebrews, God through Moses, turned the waters into blood, and casted plagues upon the earth.
    God sent a drought through Elijah and shut the heavens for 3 years until Elijah's word was spoken to rain again.

    So their souls/spirits were taken from them personally to be used in the future. That explains them appearing to Jesus. The only thing that can be questioned about that particular event in the bible is, What did they conversate about?

    Leave a comment:


  • OldChurchGuy
    replied
    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    bladers, in all fairness, I can see how your conclusions here could be correct. I can see the perspective that you're seeing this from, thus I can understand how you draw that conclusion. It would have to be a fact, that Samuel, could only have known what the future held for Saul, via the Lord. So in that sense, the Lord would have had to have been directly involved. But truthfully, I don't even really question this part nor really have an issue with it, The part that I'm wondering about is the how?

    The question then is, or perhaps has always been, how did Samuel's spirit rise from the dead in order to speak with Saul? Via the Holy Spirit, or via an evil spirit?
    From my perspective, it was the Holy Spirit. I base this on my understanding of Numbers 22 thru 24 where Balaam three times tries to pronounce a curse upon the Israelites but cannot. The Witch of Endor was also a tool of God without wanting / meaning to be.

    OldChurchGuy

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  • OldChurchGuy
    replied
    Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
    Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
    5
    For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

    We know that scripture cannot contradict itself. Here we have the dead who don't know anything, which would seem to mean once you're dead, you are either asleep or non existant.
    Then we have Samuel being called up from the grave, and the appearace of Moses and Elijah with Jesus.
    So we either have to assume that one or the other is wrong, a lie, or, that our understanding is faulty.
    Take a closer look at the passage above. Who is the living, and who is the dead?
    The dead know nothing, have no reward, memory of them fades away, and that's it.
    But we know that the living DO have a reward, in heaven, for this same Bible tells us so.
    He is speaking about those who have no knowledge of God, and thus no life, no salvation, and no reward. Those, the ones who reject God and refuse to live according to His standards, ARE dead. Jude called them 'twice dead'.
    Jude 1:10-13
    10
    But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
    11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
    12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
    13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
    Jesus said 'Let the dead bury the dead.'

    If one is to take the Ecc. passage to mean there is no consciousness, know knowledge, etc when you die, then they must ALSO take the rest of the verse in the same manner, which says they have no reward, and in so doing, consider the rest of the Word to be a lie.
    Not wanting to provoke a fight, but is the first sentence stating the scripture cannot contradict itself a statement of irrefutable fact or faith?

    Sincerely,

    OldChurchGuy

    Leave a comment:


  • Bladers
    replied
    Originally posted by oneinthespirit View Post
    I just re-read my reply and its a little confusing.

    Let me start over. Luke chapter 16 verses 19 - 31 gives a literal account of certain men who died and went to their reserved rest area. One of the men (rich man who was in hell) asked Abraham to send Lazarus ( begger) to him (vs. 25). Then Abraham basically said no because where your at, you stay (vs 26.)
    How do you explain moses and elijah appearing to Jesus, were they demons too?

    Nevertheless, the bible stated that it was samuel and that he told saul the future and it came to pass. How do you explain that?

    Leave a comment:


  • Bladers
    replied
    Originally posted by Sirus View Post
    That's in question?
    Via the Holy Spirit, or via an evil spirit?

    Leave a comment:


  • Sirus
    replied
    Originally posted by Bladers View Post
    Now thats the question, any one?
    That's in question?

    Leave a comment:


  • oneinthespirit
    replied
    I just re-read my reply and its a little confusing.

    Let me start over. Luke chapter 16 verses 19 - 31 gives a literal account of certain men who died and went to their reserved rest area. One of the men (rich man who was in hell) asked Abraham to send Lazarus ( begger) to him (vs. 25). Then Abraham basically said no because where your at, you stay (vs 26.)

    Leave a comment:


  • oneinthespirit
    replied
    If we take a look at this very familiar passage in the scriptures; Luke 16:31. Jesus was speaking to the pharisees, giving them a literal account of what happens after death.

    Verse 26 states: ..."there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence (here) to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence (there)."

    This verse tells us that after death you are sent to a resting place (according to your salvation, works at that time) til judgement day, and during that wait, you don't leave that place.

    2 corinthians 11:14 states; "And no marvel: for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." The devil has powers to deceive the very elect if it were possible.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bladers
    replied
    Originally posted by divaD View Post
    Via the Holy Spirit, or via an evil spirit?
    Now thats the question, any one?

    Leave a comment:

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