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  • Sinless perfection in this life

    i have noticed there are a couple of people on here who believe that a true Christian never sins. I am not here to mock you or say IM RIGHT YOURE WRONG. However i would like to see how you view this passage in phillipians 3:

    12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

    it seems to me that straining forward indicates work, but if Paul never sins why must he strain? If a true christian never sins, why must they "work out" their salvation with fear and trembling? if i will never sin, what is there to fear?

    also what is he reffering to when he says he is not perfect?
    ive heard i guy who said we cannot sin say: its not that we are tempted to sin and give in, it's that we cannot be tempted because we are born of God. However Paul clearly says he is not perfect in some fashion. Is it in obedience? is it in the state of his humanity, where sin in is present in his members? please help me out here

    please dont see this as a mocking of your beliefs i am trying to respectfully understand your theology

  • #2
    i would like to see how you view this passage in phillipians 3:

    12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
    I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

    Let's look at the previous verses and see what Paul says he hasn't already obtained.

    1. He hasn't obtained Christ.
    2. He hasn't obtained righteousness that comes from God by faith.
    3. He hasn't obtained knowledge of Christ
    4. He hasn't obtained knowledge of the power of Christ's resurrection.
    5. He hasn't obtained fellowship of sharing in Christ's sufferings
    6. He hasn't obtained becoming like Christ in his death.
    7. He hasn't obtained to be part of the resurrection of the dead.

    Has Paul already obtained these things above? The verses point to no, but I say yes.

    Paul states later in the same chapter that "All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you."

    I beleive that Paul is saying that even though we have obtained all those things, we should live like we haven't. Thus, in thinking that we should think differently, because we KNOW differently, God makes it clear to us that we have obtained these things.

    if Paul never sins why must he strain? If a true christian never sins, why must they "work out" their salvation with fear and trembling? if i will never sin, what is there to fear?
    True Christians and False Christians must live as though they have not obtained these things. This is to make your election sure, with fear and trembling.

    Working out your salvation with fear and trembling is to make your election sure. To come to the knowledge that you are one who is born again. This is because only those who persevere to the end are born again. Others BELIEVE they are born again, and will find they were not.

    ive heard i guy who said we cannot sin say: its not that we are tempted to sin and give in, it's that we cannot be tempted because we are born of God.
    His name was John. Let me show you.

    Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

    John could have said should not (meaning permission), but no, he said cannot (meaning inability).

    However Paul clearly says he is not perfect in some fashion. Is it in obedience? is it in the state of his humanity, where sin in is present in his members?
    It is definitely in the state of his humanity. For Paul even says that it is no longer he who sins, but the sin living within his flesh that does it.

    And no, I don't feel you are mocking my beliefs and appreciate the chance to go more in depth.

    Yuke

    Comment


    • #3
      A question I think sometimes, to throw into the discussion.

      If you put something imperfect into something perfect it does not remain perfect.

      If Jesus is perfect, and we are in Jesus, should that part of us in Jesus not then be perfect?

      Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. (Col1:28 NKJV)

      to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, (Heb 12:23 NKJV)

      For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. (Heb 10:14 NKJV)

      What do these verses mean? Reading the whole passages of course. Not trying to teach something, honestly curious how others harmonize and understand them.

      Peace,
      Joe

      Comment


      • #4
        In 1 John it says that a real Christian doesn't sin.

        If that were true as we perceive it in english, we wouldn't need a Savior.

        What John meant I believe is that we are no longer bound by sin and bound by the world. The enemy has no hold on us any longer. We are not in bondage to sin.

        Jesus is our redemption! Amen! May we never boast in our own righteousness!

        Comment


        • #5
          In 1 John it says that a real Christian doesn't sin.

          If that were true as we perceive it in english, we wouldn't need a Savior.
          John is not saying a real Christian hasn't sinned. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

          John is saying that after a person beomes born again, he cannot sin.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
            I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

            Let's look at the previous verses and see what Paul says he hasn't already obtained.

            1. He hasn't obtained Christ.
            2. He hasn't obtained righteousness that comes from God by faith.
            3. He hasn't obtained knowledge of Christ
            4. He hasn't obtained knowledge of the power of Christ's resurrection.
            5. He hasn't obtained fellowship of sharing in Christ's sufferings
            6. He hasn't obtained becoming like Christ in his death.
            7. He hasn't obtained to be part of the resurrection of the dead.

            Has Paul already obtained these things above? The verses point to no, but I say yes.

            Paul states later in the same chapter that "All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you."


            I beleive that Paul is saying that even though we have obtained all those things, we should live like we haven't. Thus, in thinking that we should think differently, because we KNOW differently, God makes it clear to us that we have obtained these things.

            True Christians and False Christians must live as though they have not obtained these things. This is to make your election sure, with fear and trembling.
            Hi Yuke,

            Looking at the passage in Philippians in greater context aids in understanding what Paul is teaching us.

            Beginning here in vs 4 Paul uses himself to illustrate a point; 'If there is any value in our family ties, ceremonies, religious works and performances, outward obedience to the law and rites, I have more room to boast than any of these false teachers.'

            Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

            Paul was circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Pharisee, persecuted the church, and with respect to the observance of the outward law, blameless.

            Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
            Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

            At one time Paul felt that all these things were necessary for acceptance with God, were necessary for righteousness and entitled him to the favor of God. When God revealed Christ to him, he saw all these things to be worthless. Christ is our sacrifice, our sanctification and our righteousness. He is the fulfillment of all these. That which was once everything to Paul became nothing; Christ became everthing (Col 3:11).

            Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

            Paul counted everything as loss compared to the priceless privilege of knowing Christ Jesus as Lord. For His sake Paul lost everything in order that he may have Christ, the Redeemer.

            1. Paul renounced not only the Jewish ceremonies, but worldly honor, reputation, substance, comforts and advantages.
            2. He lost self-righteousness and gained Christ's righteousness.
            3. He lost ceremonial bondage and gained freedom in Christ.
            4. He lost false peace and gained true peace with God.
            5. He lost pretended glory and gained eternal glory (1Co 1:30,31).

            Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

            Paul had one determined purpose, one desire, and sincere hope, which is threefold:

            1. That he may win Christ and be found in Him, not trusting or having any self-achieved righteousness in works and deeds, but possessing genuine righteousness of God which comes through faith of Christ...holiness and perfect righteousness which Christ gives His own (Col 1:22)

            2. That he may really know Him. He did know Him, but he wanted to become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him and His person; that he may come to know the power of His resurrection and the strength it gives to believers; that he may know and share Christ's sufferings as to be transformed continually into His likeness, dying daily to sin and self.

            3. That he might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Paul may be referring here to the resurrection of the body in the likeness of Christ in the great Day of the Lord. However (because of the next verse), I believe he is talking about a moral and spiritual resurrection that lifts us out of the death and darkness of the world and sin. The world, the flesh and all of this human life and death. In Christ there is real life, real love, real holiness. There is communion with God and perfect righteousness. That is what Paul wanted, by whatever means it pleased for God to bring him to that place, he wanted to be like Christ in attitude, spirit and heart.

            Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
            Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
            Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

            Clearly, from this passage Paul had not attained to perfect holiness, perfect knowledge, nor perfect happiness. Though sanctification is perfect in Christ, it was not yet perfected in Paul. We know in part, sin dwells in us, our faith is imperfect, but like Paul, we press on. Paul longed to lay hold of that for which Christ laid hold of him. Paul wanted what the Lord purposed and purchased for him on Calvary...to be like Him (Eph 1:3-6).

            Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

            Paul does not claim to have arrived at perfection in doctrine, spirit, nor deed. He was not yet all that Christ would have him to be. He was not yet what he wanted to be, not even all that he ought to be. However he was not what he used to be. He says I forget what lies behind me - my struggles and attempts to be self-righteous, my experiences and revelations in spiritual infancy, my works and labors since conversion, and my recent growth and revelations.

            Now Paul reaches for present and future blessings and revelations of His grace. The illustration is taken from runners in a race, who do not stop to look behind them to see how far they have come nor to determine how far they are in front of others, but they are concerned for what they are doing now and for what lies ahead.

            Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

            Paul's goal, and our goal is to finish the race and obtain the heavenly prize, the incorruptible crown of life, righteousness, and glory! (Ps 17:15) We look to Christ (Heb 12:1,2). We follow and depend on Christ (1Jo 3:1-3).

            Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

            Let all who are spiritually mature (who are taught of God) have this same mind and hold these same convictions:

            1. To count all heritage, ceremony, tradition and works of religion as rubbish that we may win Christ and be found in Him.
            2. To be willing to suffer the loss of all things for a knowledge of Christ.
            3. To disclaim perfection in ourselves, but to aim for it.
            4. To desire to be found in Him, having His righteousness.
            5. To desire above all things to be like Christ and press forward in perseverance to attain the incorruptible crown.

            Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

            Nevertheless, whatever degree of the knowledge of Christ and the truth of the gospel and the light we have received, let us walk therein! As we walk in the light God gives us, He will give us more light. Spiritual growth may be slow, even discouraging. Sometimes we feel like we're standing still. But God has revealed Christ in us, and we know in whom we have believed. So we hold fast to this until God reveals more of Himself, and we are made perfect at His coming.

            Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

            We are not complete or perfect yet, but He will complete and perfect what He has begun in us, and so we wait patiently until he changes our vile, sinful bodies of death into the glory and majesty of His own body (1Co 15:51-55).

            Many Blessings,
            RW

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
              John is not saying a real Christian hasn't sinned. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

              John is saying that after a person beomes born again, he cannot sin.
              I've met a lot of born-again believers, but I've never met one who cannot sin.
              Phl 4:11 Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Yuke,

                Looking at the passage in Philippians in greater context aids in understanding what Paul is teaching us.

                Beginning here in vs 4 Paul uses himself to illustrate a point; 'If there is any value in our family ties, ceremonies, religious works and performances, outward obedience to the law and rites, I have more room to boast than any of these false teachers.'

                Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

                Paul was circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Pharisee, persecuted the church, and with respect to the observance of the outward law, blameless.

                Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
                Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

                At one time Paul felt that all these things were necessary for acceptance with God, were necessary for righteousness and entitled him to the favor of God. When God revealed Christ to him, he saw all these things to be worthless. Christ is our sacrifice, our sanctification and our righteousness. He is the fulfillment of all these. That which was once everything to Paul became nothing; Christ became everthing (Col 3:11).

                Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

                Paul counted everything as loss compared to the priceless privilege of knowing Christ Jesus as Lord. For His sake Paul lost everything in order that he may have Christ, the Redeemer.

                1. Paul renounced not only the Jewish ceremonies, but worldly honor, reputation, substance, comforts and advantages.
                2. He lost self-righteousness and gained Christ's righteousness.
                3. He lost ceremonial bondage and gained freedom in Christ.
                4. He lost false peace and gained true peace with God.
                5. He lost pretended glory and gained eternal glory (1Co 1:30,31).

                Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

                Paul had one determined purpose, one desire, and sincere hope, which is threefold:

                1. That he may win Christ and be found in Him, not trusting or having any self-achieved righteousness in works and deeds, but possessing genuine righteousness of God which comes through faith of Christ...holiness and perfect righteousness which Christ gives His own (Col 1:22)

                2. That he may really know Him. He did know Him, but he wanted to become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him and His person; that he may come to know the power of His resurrection and the strength it gives to believers; that he may know and share Christ's sufferings as to be transformed continually into His likeness, dying daily to sin and self.

                3. That he might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Paul may be referring here to the resurrection of the body in the likeness of Christ in the great Day of the Lord. However (because of the next verse), I believe he is talking about a moral and spiritual resurrection that lifts us out of the death and darkness of the world and sin. The world, the flesh and all of this human life and death. In Christ there is real life, real love, real holiness. There is communion with God and perfect righteousness. That is what Paul wanted, by whatever means it pleased for God to bring him to that place, he wanted to be like Christ in attitude, spirit and heart.

                Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
                Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
                Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

                Clearly, from this passage Paul had not attained to perfect holiness, perfect knowledge, nor perfect happiness. Though sanctification is perfect in Christ, it was not yet perfected in Paul. We know in part, sin dwells in us, our faith is imperfect, but like Paul, we press on. Paul longed to lay hold of that for which Christ laid hold of him. Paul wanted what the Lord purposed and purchased for him on Calvary...to be like Him (Eph 1:3-6).

                Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
                All of this, I can agree with.

                Clearly, from this passage Paul had not attained to perfect holiness, perfect knowledge, nor perfect happiness. Though sanctification is perfect in Christ, it was not yet perfected in Paul. We know in part, sin dwells in us, our faith is imperfect, but like Paul, we press on. Paul longed to lay hold of that for which Christ laid hold of him. Paul wanted what the Lord purposed and purchased for him on Calvary...to be like Him (Eph 1:3-6).

                Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
                Paul doesn't mention perfect attainment. He is saying he has not attained the items in the previous passage. The fact is, he had attained it, but he said this as though this is how a Christian ought to think in order to persevere and make their election sure.

                When all things are permissible, then in all things you can do no sin. Though not that all things are profitable and worthy of rewards.

                Let all who are spiritually mature (who are taught of God) have this same mind and hold these same convictions:

                1. To count all heritage, ceremony, tradition and works of religion as rubbish that we may win Christ and be found in Him.
                2. To be willing to suffer the loss of all things for a knowledge of Christ.
                3. To disclaim perfection in ourselves, but to aim for it.
                4. To desire to be found in Him, having His righteousness.
                5. To desire above all things to be like Christ and press forward in perseverance to attain the incorruptible crown.

                Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
                Be of this mind, but do not be convicted of this. For you as a Christian:

                1. Won Christ
                2. Suffered loss for knowledge of Christ
                3. Have attained perfection through God abiding in you, though your flesh is corrupt.
                4. Have been made righteous.
                5. Are Christ like
                5 and 1/2. Will persevere.

                Nevertheless, whatever degree of the knowledge of Christ and the truth of the gospel and the light we have received, let us walk therein! As we walk in the light God gives us, He will give us more light. Spiritual growth may be slow, even discouraging. Sometimes we feel like we're standing still. But God has revealed Christ in us, and we know in whom we have believed. So we hold fast to this until God reveals more of Himself, and we are made perfect at His coming.

                Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

                We are not complete or perfect yet, but He will complete and perfect what He has begun in us, and so we wait patiently until he changes our vile, sinful bodies of death into the glory and majesty of His own body (1Co 15:51-55).
                Again, agreed.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by SIG View Post
                  I've met a lot of born-again believers, but I've never met one who cannot sin.
                  If you are correct, then John has lied. If you are correct, then I need to rip John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelation out of my Bible, for they would not be God inspired.

                  Think of these things:

                  1. What is sin?
                  2. Are those who are born again under law or under grace?
                  3. Is everything permissible to those who are born again?
                  4. Is your flesh made perfect when you become saved?

                  Yuke

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It seems to me we gravitate to one pole or the other.
                    For example when it comes to the two natures of Christ, some errorists will say 'Jesus was simply human' and bring out their scriptural artillary. Similarly, others will argue 'Jesus is God'. Both are half rightr and I think the same applies here.
                    I would argue that we are sanctified and holy by the blood of Christ and yet simultaneously we are sinners. And even though as Christians we are sinners and do sin, God sees us robed in Christ's sinless righteousness. Even our best works are tainted with enough sin that apart from Christ's righteousness continual covering we would be French toast...or English muffins.
                    ♪ Each day may Christ become clearer, His Cross dearer, Our Hope nearer. ♫

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
                      If you are correct, then John has lied.
                      Or it could be that you're just misinterpreting what John was trying to say.

                      1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

                      1 John 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

                      Who are these written to? Not non-Christians. These words were written to Christians. Yet John directly states that if "we" (that is, Christians) "say we have no sin" we are liars and God's truth is not in us.

                      1 John 2:1-2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

                      Again, John is writing to Christians. And here he says he is "writing these things to you" (Christians) "so that you" (Christians) "may not sin". And then John plainly says that if "anyone" (Christians) "do sin" that Jesus Christ is our advocate to God, and "not for our [sins] only but also for the sins of the whole world". The context is clear; John repeatedly indicates he is speaking about Christians, and he plainly says that they can and will sin, but that Christ will be their advocate to the Father.

                      Romans 7:14-24 Yukerboy, read this. If you think that a Christian is absolutely incapable of sinning, then you need to tear Romans out of your Bible, or else change your interpretation of 1 John. In Romans 7:14-24, Paul writes two paragraphs about how, even though he is saved, he is still a sinner, but that Christ saves him from his sins.

                      I read some commentaries, and they point out that John was using the present-progressive tense in 1 John 3. The present-progressive verb tense indicates and ongoing action. He was not saying that "Christians cannot sin". It would be more accurate to interpret 1 John 3 as saying that Christians cannot sin ongoingly - as in, that they cannot live in their sins. A person cannot be a Christian and live in a state of ongoing sin. That is what the original Greek seems to be saying in 1 John 3.

                      John outright says that Christians are capable of sinning - and do sin - in 1 John 1:8-10 and 1 John 2:1-2. What he says is that Christians cannot ongoingly sin. Meaning, a person who commits to Christ can still "stumble" (James 3:2), but that they cannot live a sinful lifestyle and claim to be devoted to Christ. A drunkard can't remain a drunkard if they are a Christian. A gay can't remain a gay if they are a Christian. An adulterer can't remain an adulterer if they are a Christian. But Paul, John, and James all say that a Christian can and do sin. But they also all say that a Christian can't live in their sins.

                      Christ's blood covers us if we live in Him. Meaning, Christians can and will and do sin, but Christ's blood covers us from our sins. But if we live in sin, Christ's blood doesn't cover us, because we are devoted to our sins, not Him. As Christ said, a person cannot serve two masters; if a person serves their sin, they are living in their sin and are a liar and "no truth is found in him". But if a person serves Christ, they are not living in sin (though they can and will and do sin), but they are covered by Christ's blood.
                      To This Day

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Or it could be that you're just misinterpreting what John was trying to say.

                        1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

                        1 John 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

                        Who are these written to? Not non-Christians. These words were written to Christians. Yet John directly states that if "we" (that is, Christians) "say we have no sin" we are liars and God's truth is not in us.


                        Which shows you have misinterpreted what I am trying to say. We have sin. It abides in our flesh. We have sinned, not only us, but all have sinned. I do not deny these concepts.

                        Nor will I deny that whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

                        Will you?

                        1 John 2:1-2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

                        Again, John is writing to Christians. And here he says he is "writing these things to you" (Christians) "so that you" (Christians) "may not sin". And then John plainly says that if "anyone" (Christians) "do sin" that Jesus Christ is our advocate to God, and "not for our [sins] only but also for the sins of the whole world". The context is clear; John repeatedly indicates he is speaking about Christians, and he plainly says that they can and will sin, but that Christ will be their advocate to the Father.
                        The you say that John contradicts John. I cannot.

                        John writes these to the little children so that they may not sin. He then goes on to state that they cannot sin. Then he says if anyone (anyone, not Christians) sin, that we (Christians) have an advocate. He is the propitiation for our sins and for anyones sins (the whole world).

                        Romans 7:14-24 Yukerboy, read this. If you think that a Christian is absolutely incapable of sinning, then you need to tear Romans out of your Bible, or else change your interpretation of 1 John. In Romans 7:14-24, Paul writes two paragraphs about how, even though he is saved, he is still a sinner, but that Christ saves him from his sins.
                        Let us look then.

                        20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

                        Paul is telling you here why John is right. Paul is CONFIRMING John's charge that the Christian cannot sin.

                        If I do (sin) that I would not (sin), it is no more I that do it (sin), but sin that dwelleth in me (that commits sin).

                        But if we live in sin, Christ's blood doesn't cover us, because we are devoted to our sins, not Him. As Christ said, a person cannot serve two masters; if a person serves their sin, they are living in their sin and are a liar and "no truth is found in him". But if a person serves Christ, they are not living in sin (though they can and will and do sin), but they are covered by Christ's blood.
                        Except for the parenthetical stating against the word of God through John that a Christian can sin, I agree with the above statements and have never denied any of the concepts therein.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          This is actually very simple.

                          Anyone that says they, in their essence (nature), cannot sin is a liar. However, he that is born of God, that is the one that is IN CHRIST, that is in position, the one dead because of their crucifixion cannot sin. A dead man cannot sin!!! We are dead in Christ, by faith. It's by faith. We can't see it and we are not supposed to see it, we are only asked to believe it and walk in what Christ has given us!

                          Their are two Greek words used in Philippians 3 for 'perfect'.
                          The first is found in v12 and is teleioō which means to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.

                          Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
                          Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
                          Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.



                          The second is found in v15 (why do people only mention v12?) and is teleios which means complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

                          Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
                          Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
                          Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
                          Phi 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
                          Phi 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example.
                          Phi 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
                          Phi 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
                          Phi 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ:



                          The first 'perfect' (absolute) Paul rightly prescribes to the resurrection. The second 'perfect' (mature) he rightly prescribes to our walk and something we already have already attained. It's in our possession!
                          Though we walk IN (not after) the flesh (2Cor 10:3) we WAR AFTER (along) the spirit. Read that ten times to be sure you get it!

                          So what is the rule we walk by (v16)? Where else is this language used? What rule? Christians have a rule to walk by? Yep!

                          Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
                          Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
                          Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
                          Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

                          We are also told
                          Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
                          Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and established in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
                          ............
                          Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
                          Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

                          A christian can sin anytime they want to but they don't have to....ever....because with every temptation God has made a way of escape and it's called the Cross of Christ wherein is their crucifixion with Christ. A dead man cannot sin. A man living after (along) the flesh can. When we believe in THE WAY (of escape) the truth and the life we bring our position (dead) into our experience (flesh alive) and sin not. This is why Paul said the preaching of the cross is foolishness to the world but to them that are saved it is the power of God!

                          BY FAITH!!!
                          This, is the whole gospel. Not just the half that is being forgiven. This is freedom! Abundant life!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sirus View Post
                            This is actually very simple.

                            Anyone that says they, in their essence (nature), cannot sin is a liar. However, he that is born of God, that is the one that is IN CHRIST, that is in position, the one dead because of their crucifixion cannot sin. A dead man cannot sin!!! We are dead in Christ, by faith. It's by faith. We can't see it and we are not supposed to see it, we are only asked to believe it and walk in what Christ has given us!

                            Their are two Greek words used in Philippians 3 for 'perfect'.
                            The first is found in v12 and is teleioō which means to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.

                            Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
                            Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
                            Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.



                            The second is found in v15 (why do people only mention v12?) and is teleios which means complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

                            Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
                            Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
                            Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
                            Phi 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
                            Phi 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example.
                            Phi 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
                            Phi 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
                            Phi 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ:



                            The first 'perfect' (absolute) Paul rightly prescribes to the resurrection. The second 'perfect' (mature) he rightly prescribes to our walk and something we already have already attained. It's in our possession!
                            Though we walk IN (not after) the flesh (2Cor 10:3) we WAR AFTER (along) the spirit. Read that ten times to be sure you get it!

                            So what is the rule we walk by (v16)? Where else is this language used? What rule? Christians have a rule to walk by? Yep!

                            Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
                            Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
                            Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
                            Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

                            We are also told
                            Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
                            Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and established in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
                            ............
                            Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
                            Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

                            A christian can sin anytime they want to but they don't have to....ever....because with every temptation God has made a way of escape and it's called the Cross of Christ wherein is their crucifixion with Christ. A dead man cannot sin. A man living after (along) the flesh can. When we believe in THE WAY (of escape) the truth and the life we bring our position (dead) into our experience (flesh alive) and sin not. This is why Paul said the preaching of the cross is foolishness to the world but to them that are saved it is the power of God!

                            BY FAITH!!!
                            This, is the whole gospel. Not just the half that is being forgiven. This is freedom! Abundant life!
                            Greetings Sirus,

                            It really is actually very simple! Excellent understanding, thank you. When we walk in the Spirit of God we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. If we are alive in the Spirit, we either choose to walk in His Spirit living in us, or we choose to fulfill the lust of the flesh. We don't have to choose the flesh because His Spirit gives us the power to deny the flesh.

                            Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
                            Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

                            Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
                            Ga 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

                            When we choose to walk in the Spirit we cannot sin, but when we are weak and walk in the flesh it is because we are engaged in a spiritual battle; Spirit against the flesh, and we cannot do the things that we should do according to the Spirit. This is why we are warned to put off the flesh, to crucify the flesh, to deny the flesh, to kill the flesh, to mortify the things of the earth that reside in our sinful flesh. For if we continue to live according to our sinful flesh, we will die. But there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

                            Many Blessings,
                            RW

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Yuke - have you ever met a sinless Christian?

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