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  • Predestination Quick Questions

    1.Does God know who will go to heaven and who will go to hell in the end?
    i think we can say yes

    2. Does God know the end of a person before the beginning? Does he know a persons destiny before he creates them?

    Yes. I think we will all agree on this point. God is Alpha/Omega. He does not say, man, i sure hope this one turns out ok lol


    So, how do you guys reconcile this information:

    God creates some people knowing full and well that they, beyond a shadow of a doubt, will end up in hell

    this is why i believe in double predestination

    opinions? scriptures?

  • #2
    Ever heard of the 'Frozen Choosen'?

    i believe in double predestination
    We get that from the half a dozen threads you have started on this same topic in the last couple days.

    Can He make a rock that he can not move? I believe that He can... and He can move it.

    Can He give free will, and still know what we will choose?

    I believe so... my Lord is big enough.

    The danger with the doctrine of predestination is that if we believe it, there is nothing we are to really be concerned with doing. Many churches don't believe in or practice evangelism... simply because they believe they do not have to.

    Is there truth within Calvinism? Sure. Most doctrines of men contain truth.... just not the entire Truth.
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * ** * * * ** * *** * * * * ***** * * * * ** * * * * ** ** * *
    ~ * You get 10 'reps' to bless others with each day... don't log off until you have used them up......
    ....Live your life the same way.... ~ *

    Please pray for the 'Persecuted Church'.


    Bible Forums Vision: "To be a community of believers who are actively engaged in pursuing the truth of God as revealed in His Son Jesus Christ by way of studying the Scriptures diligently in order to discover this truth."


    Comment


    • #3
      A bit more.

      Ever heard of the 'Frozen Chosen'?
      Of course the Calvinist answer to that is the reason we practice the 'great commission' is to be obedient to scripture. The problem is that obedience is not really a big Hallmark of the western Church.

      The idea of being 'under grace' is accurate in it's scriptural context. The problem is that in the context of the flesh we tend to do what we see as necessary.

      While we are to see 'sinners in the hands of....' we see that it really makes no difference.... just as the adversary would have us to do.

      Are there scriptures to support both sides of the 'argument'? Of course, the problem is that scripture does not argue against it's self. Only men do that.

      Scripture asks us to choose.... Calvinism (or applied hyper Calvinism) says that it does not matter what you choose.
      * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * ** * * * ** * *** * * * * ***** * * * * ** * * * * ** ** * *
      ~ * You get 10 'reps' to bless others with each day... don't log off until you have used them up......
      ....Live your life the same way.... ~ *

      Please pray for the 'Persecuted Church'.


      Bible Forums Vision: "To be a community of believers who are actively engaged in pursuing the truth of God as revealed in His Son Jesus Christ by way of studying the Scriptures diligently in order to discover this truth."


      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Amos_with_goats View Post
        We get that from the half a dozen threads you have started on this same topic in the last couple days.

        Can He make a rock that he can not move? I believe that He can... and He can move it.

        Can He give free will, and still know what we will choose?

        I believe so... my Lord is big enough.

        The danger with the doctrine of predestination is that if we believe it, there is nothing we are to really be concerned with doing. Many churches don't believe in or practice evangelism... simply because they believe they do not have to.

        Is there truth within Calvinism? Sure. Most doctrines of men contain truth.... just not the entire Truth.

        yeah, i agree, i guess i just have this itch that wants to know THE FULL TRUTH haha but i just can't seem to scratch it lol. but actually because o the doctrine of predestination i feel safe in the hands of God. not meaning i can live however i want but also not meaning people don't ever have to repent and believe, however i think predestination helps to pinpoint the author and finisher of our faith. Where our faith comes from, why we have it, why we can be assured of our perserverance

        but youre right perhaps i shouldnt have posted this as a new thread lol

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by reformedct View Post
          1.Does God know who will go to heaven and who will go to hell in the end?
          i think we can say yes

          2. Does God know the end of a person before the beginning? Does he know a persons destiny before he creates them?

          Yes. I think we will all agree on this point. God is Alpha/Omega. He does not say, man, i sure hope this one turns out ok lol


          So, how do you guys reconcile this information:

          God creates some people knowing full and well that they, beyond a shadow of a doubt, will end up in hell

          this is why i believe in double predestination

          opinions? scriptures?
          We see that David was predestined to be King by God..But when David slept with Bathsheba and killed Yuria the Hitite, the house of David experienced all sorts of turmoil during his reign due to this sin. David even goes on in Psalms to state the following...

          Psalms 89:38-42But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed. Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground. Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin. All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours. Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.


          We see that David's covenant was for a time revoked by God, due to his actions..God at some point forgave David due to his repentance..and restated his covenant with him. Thus to answer your question, God does pre-ordain men to be in various positions during their lives..I'm not sure how this works in entirety with free-will though. I think there are still many choices one can make that can make God change his mind regarding a decision he has made regarding any individual. Thus one needs to be very careful in preaching any type of pre-ordainment doctrine...as pre-ordainment doesn't give one a free ride and ticket to wickedness..or preclude God from changing his mind about something he has promised due to a man's actions.

          God bless in Christian Love,Stephen

          Comment


          • #6
            i shouldnt have posted this as a new thread lol
            I am sorry, I did not mean it like that. I have seen this discussion progress where both sides dig in in opposition and look for the scriptures that argue against the other position... and become fruitless.

            IMHO The same thing happens with those grace / law discussions. There is no opposition of scripture to scripture. The idea that our free will opposes the Lord's knowledge of what we will choose is the problem... they are 2 sides of the same coin. Much like grace and the law are. Both sides are necessary if we are to understand the scripture.

            Blessings, and peace
            * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * ** * * * ** * *** * * * * ***** * * * * ** * * * * ** ** * *
            ~ * You get 10 'reps' to bless others with each day... don't log off until you have used them up......
            ....Live your life the same way.... ~ *

            Please pray for the 'Persecuted Church'.


            Bible Forums Vision: "To be a community of believers who are actively engaged in pursuing the truth of God as revealed in His Son Jesus Christ by way of studying the Scriptures diligently in order to discover this truth."


            Comment


            • #7
              i also think calvinism is looking at things frrom the perspective of the future.

              in the future, when we are in heaven and look back, i think we will see it was God who chose us and brought us to Himself

              I greatly disagree with hyper-calvinism, which says we shouldn't even preach the gospel! thats wacky haha

              but i do believe it takes the weight off our shoulders to force people to convert.

              We preach the gospel and then it is the Holy Spirit working through the Word that does the inside job.

              I believe in the great commission, we are like john the baotist was, to be witnesses to the light

              Comment


              • #8
                Simple question I would like you to answer from the reformed view point. Why did God have to reconcile those that he chose in advance? If those that were predestined from before the foundation of the world belong to God then there would be no need to be reconciled back to Him. So why the need of having to be reconciled?
                I am a Christian man in the Devil's land, spreading the gospel man to man.
                Have you laid your burdens down?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TrustingFollower View Post
                  Simple question I would like you to answer from the reformed view point. Why did God have to reconcile those that he chose in advance? If those that were predestined from before the foundation of the world belong to God then there would be no need to be reconciled back to Him. So why the need of having to be reconciled?
                  Greetings TrustingFollower,

                  Because every man is born of Adam, and as such with a nature in bondage to Satan, sin and death. From this bondage we must be redeemed if we are to be reconciled to God. We are not born saved because we are chosen, we are born for salvation because we have been chosen for eternal life.

                  Many Blessings,
                  RW

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    1.Does God know who will go to heaven and who will go to hell in the end?
                    i think we can say yes
                    I agree. He's God, He knows everything.

                    2. Does God know the end of a person before the beginning? Does he know a persons destiny before he creates them?
                    See above.

                    Yes. I think we will all agree on this point. God is Alpha/Omega. He does not say, man, i sure hope this one turns out ok lol
                    I like that! Again, I agree... it's not like the clay can turn around and fight the potter.

                    So, how do you guys reconcile this information:

                    God creates some people knowing full and well that they, beyond a shadow of a doubt, will end up in hell
                    Fortunately, I don't have to reconcile it. I believe that God creates everyone with free will, and I also believe that He's completely in control. We're living in a tight little set of dimensions called Time and Space... God is outside of that. We're like creatures living in a two dimensional universe trying to envisage a cube, with only a square to work with. We can't possibly understand God. His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are far above our thoughts.

                    Right now we see only dimly... one day we'll see face to face. And on that day we'll see how the tensions and seeming contradictions are resolved.

                    At this time, it doesn't matter. God is God, He loves us, He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to eternal life. Yet He knows that the way is narrow that leads to eternal life, and only few find it.

                    We can simply accept that God knows more about it than we do, and whatever label we choose for our own limited understanding, God cannot be labelled.

                    this is why i believe in double predestination
                    This is why I don't worry too much about who was right... The problem's too complex for me, and I trust the Lord of all the earth to do right.
                    Please could everyone pray for Mieke and Charles.

                    My testimony http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthr...ight=testimony

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      1.Does God know who will go to heaven and who will go to hell in the end?
                      i think we can say yes
                      Why do you say yes?

                      If that were the case.....what was the purpose of Jesus going through all that pain and torture for us then?

                      2. Does God know the end of a person before the beginning? Does he know a persons destiny before he creates them?
                      Sure he does.....God is the creator of the person. But the destiny that God has planned out for us, is not always the destiny that we choose to take.

                      For example: I have a destiny all planned out for my son who is now 8 years old. I had this destiny planned out for my son ever since he was born. The destiny that I planned out for my son is that he would grow up and become a Preacher of God's Word that would bring many to Christ in the days ahead. That is the predestined destination that I have planned for the life of my son.

                      Now.....will my son become this Preacher that I had predestined him to be? I don't know. That would be up to my son.

                      The same goes for us with God. God predestines all of us to come to Christ, and be one of His Sheep. Whether or not we do is not up to God. That my friend is up to only us.

                      God Bless,

                      Dave
                      In Christ Love

                      BCF

                      2 Peter 1:20-21:

                      "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation. For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

                      Search and believe the Scripture, before you believe anything man tells you.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A link I saved

                        FWIW,

                        Here is a link I had saved that someone had posted from an earlier discussion. I do not endorse the site it is posted on, or do I know enough about the author to endorse him either. (how is that for a disclaimer?)

                        Here is a snippet by way of an introduction Arminianism by Jay Atkinson;

                        Each one of us should accept both pre-destination and free will because they are both taught in the Bible. Anyone who divides on the issue because they accept either one and not the other has chosen foolishness. Jesus would rather have us unite than divide but many schismatics in the church have taken sides one against the other.
                        * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * ** * * * ** * *** * * * * ***** * * * * ** * * * * ** ** * *
                        ~ * You get 10 'reps' to bless others with each day... don't log off until you have used them up......
                        ....Live your life the same way.... ~ *

                        Please pray for the 'Persecuted Church'.


                        Bible Forums Vision: "To be a community of believers who are actively engaged in pursuing the truth of God as revealed in His Son Jesus Christ by way of studying the Scriptures diligently in order to discover this truth."


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Arminians and Calvinists alike believe in predestination and election and free will.

                          They just disagree on what that means.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                            Greetings TrustingFollower,

                            Because every man is born of Adam, and as such with a nature in bondage to Satan, sin and death. From this bondage we must be redeemed if we are to be reconciled to God. We are not born saved because we are chosen, we are born for salvation because we have been chosen for eternal life.

                            Many Blessings,
                            RW
                            This still does not answer the question fully. If God already owns those that were pre chosen then they are not in bondage to sin because they ultimately never leave God's possession. No one not even God reconciles back to themselves what is already theirs. To reconcile something back means that it is lost or gone from being ones possession.
                            I am a Christian man in the Devil's land, spreading the gospel man to man.
                            Have you laid your burdens down?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BCF View Post
                              Why do you say yes?

                              If that were the case.....what was the purpose of Jesus going through all that pain and torture for us then?



                              Sure he does.....God is the creator of the person. But the destiny that God has planned out for us, is not always the destiny that we choose to take.

                              For example: I have a destiny all planned out for my son who is now 8 years old. I had this destiny planned out for my son ever since he was born. The destiny that I planned out for my son is that he would grow up and become a Preacher of God's Word that would bring many to Christ in the days ahead. That is the predestined destination that I have planned for the life of my son.

                              Now.....will my son become this Preacher that I had predestined him to be? I don't know. That would be up to my son.

                              The same goes for us with God. God predestines all of us to come to Christ, and be one of His Sheep. Whether or not we do is not up to God. That my friend is up to only us.

                              God Bless,

                              Dave
                              then why does Jesus say that which is born of Spirit is Spirit, not according to the will of man?

                              Why does James 1:18 say OF HIS OWN WILL HE BROUGHT US FORTH

                              why does ephesians say we were dead, but GOD MADE US ALIVE, we are not saved because of ourselves, we have nothing to boast about, because it is God who is responsible for making us alive?

                              Comment

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