Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

natural Israel

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by matthew94 View Post
    Certainly God desires natural Israelites to return to Him. But does He desire them more than He desires Chinese, Italian & Bolivians to return to Him?
    The answer is a resounding yes! Why? Because Jesus will not return should all of China become saved, nor all of Africa, nor America, nor any other nation. Only when all of Israel becomes saved will Jesus return! But what does Paul assure non-Israelites? That when fullness comes to Israel, the world will come to experience much more than we have ever experienced before! A nearness to Jesus that is thus far unknown and unexperienced! There will be life from the dead! No more sin! Incorruptible bodies! Unquenchable love! Yes, He is zealous for natural Israel with great zeal, because He desires not just Israel, but all who would believe in His Son to be brought close to Him in fullness!
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

    Comment


    • #17
      I have some good questions to ask:

      If natural Israel has lost the covenantal promises because of disobedience, what does this say about man's faithfulness? Anything that would surprise God or catch Him off guard?

      If natural Israel has lost the covenantal promises because of disobedience, what does this say about God's faithfulness?

      If natural Israel has no hope, then what will become of us who have been grafted into their covenantal promises? What happens if we disobey?

      What will happen when all of Israel does get saved - will God's covenantal promises made to them then come to pass?
      analyze. synthesize. repeat.

      *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
        The answer is a resounding yes! Why? Because Jesus will not return should all of China become saved, nor all of Africa, nor America, nor any other nation. Only when all of Israel becomes saved will Jesus return! But what does Paul assure non-Israelites? That when fullness comes to Israel, the world will come to experience much more than we have ever experienced before! A nearness to Jesus that is thus far unknown and unexperienced! There will be life from the dead! No more sin! Incorruptible bodies! Unquenchable love! Yes, He is zealous for natural Israel with great zeal, because He desires not just Israel, but all who would believe in His Son to be brought close to Him in fullness!
        Did you read the link I provided earlier regarding my position on Romans 9-11? You don't have to read it, obviously, but you may be interested in seeing another perspective on those verses.

        And "so all Israel" will be saved

        Each word is important.

        First, the word 'so' is not the same as the word 'then'. Paul isn't saying that after the fullness of the gentiles comes in, all national Israelites will finally believe in Christ. He's saying that the 'part' of national Israel that is un-hardened and all the gentiles who believe, together, make up spiritual Israel. The 'result' of the remnant Jews and the believing Gentiles is the collective people of God. Second, the word 'all' means just that. It can't refer to national Israel because Paul just quoted Isaiah in order to echo his prophecy that only the remnant of national Israel would be saved. Whoever 'Israel' is in verse 26a, it can't be national Israel. Third, the word 'Israel' is key and should be read as 'spiritual Israel'. If Paul is not talking about national Israel here, he must be talking about his new definition of the term, spiritual Israel. Can 'all' of spiritual Israel be saved? Yes, by definition they are all saved.

        And so I take issue with your claim that God is more interested in reaching modern day Israeli's than He is in reaching modern day Chinese, Italians or Bolivians.
        The Matthew Never Knew
        The Knew Kingdom

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
          I have some good questions to ask:

          If natural Israel has lost the covenantal promises because of disobedience, what does this say about man's faithfulness?
          It says that natural Israel was not faithful

          Anything that would surprise God or catch Him off guard?
          No

          If natural Israel has lost the covenantal promises because of disobedience, what does this say about God's faithfulness?
          It doesn't speak to the issue of God's faithfulness.

          If natural Israel has no hope, then what will become of us who have been grafted into their covenantal promises?
          Natural Israel does have hope. They are welcome into the kingdom at any time.

          What happens if we disobey?
          Then we get cut off just like natural Israel was back then.

          What will happen when all of Israel does get saved - will God's covenantal promises made to them then come to pass?
          I believe the 'Israel' in view in that verse is the Israel of God, His true people. It's not a matter of when (it doesn't say and THEN all Israel will be saved), it's a matter of who (and SO all Israel will be saved). The 'who' is the combination of Jewish & Gentile believers who together make up true Israel. All of God's promises are yes and amen in Christ Jesus alone.
          The Matthew Never Knew
          The Knew Kingdom

          Comment


          • #20
            Yes, I visited your blog, and plan on responding on it at a later time. My wife and I just had our firstborn not many days ago, and so my free time is rather sporadic (hence my being awake at 2 am!), but I try to make the best of what the Lord gives to me. The reason that I responded to all of your post minus the bit on Romans is because you mentioned that the OT passages were what flavored our respective interpretations of Romans. So, I gave response to the OT Scriptures first.

            However, I would like to make a quick comment concerning Romans 9-11.

            Every time the word "Israel" is mentioned, it means natural Israel, and never spiritual Israel.

            Rom. 9:4 - It is Israelites according to the flesh to whom forever pertain
            1) the adoption
            2) the glory
            3) the covenants
            4) the giving of the law
            5) the service of God, and
            6) the promises.

            Rom. 9:32 - But natural Israel stumbled by seeking righteousness because they did not seek it by faith, but by the works of the law.

            Rom. 10:2, 3 - Natural Israel has a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. They are ignorant of God's righteousness, and do not submit to His righteousness, but instead are seeking to establish their own righteousness.

            Rom. 10:19 - It is natural Israel who God will provoke to jealousy by spiritual Israel.

            Rom. 11:1, 2 - Natural Israel is forever known by God as "His people".

            Rom. 11:7 - Natural Israel is blinded in part.

            Rom. 11:25 - Natural Israel is blinded in part until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

            When Paul speaks of "Gentiles" in Rom. 9-11, is he speaking of spiritual Israel, or is he speaking generally of just that - Gentiles? Considering that every time the word "Israel" is mentioned, Paul is speaking about natural Israel, why do you interpret Rom. 11:26's mentioning of "Israel" as meaning spiritual Israel, or better said, of including Gentiles?

            Yes, not all are Israel who are of Israel (Rom. 9:6). You take this to mean, "not all are spiritual Israel who are of natural Israel", and to a degree I agree with that. But I see it meaning this more specifically, that "not all natural branches are united to their own cultivated olive tree from which they branched forth from, but some have been broken off."

            What he is not saying is that "not all branches that are united to the cultivated olive tree are natural, but some have been grafted in." To see it this other way is to switch the "of" in the verse so that it says: "For they are not all of Israel who are Israel."

            How is this different from your rendering? Gentiles are not "of Israel". Branches taken from a wild olive tree are not of the cultivated olive tree. However, all the natural branches on the cultivated olive tree are of the cultivated olive tree, but when these natural branches are broken off, they are no longer considered the cultivated olive tree. See the difference? It's slight, but major.

            Therefore, the "Israel" in Rom. 11:26 that Paul is speaking of does not include Gentiles; only Jews - all of them! Amen!
            analyze. synthesize. repeat.

            *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by matthew94 View Post
              Natural Israel does have hope. They are welcome into the kingdom at any time.
              Amen Matthew!!!

              You're wearing your wise-counsel hat today.

              Proverbs 1:5 "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:"

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
                How is this different from your rendering? Gentiles are not "of Israel". Branches taken from a wild olive tree are not of the cultivated olive tree. However, all the natural branches on the cultivated olive tree are of the cultivated olive tree, but when these natural branches are broken off, they are no longer considered the cultivated olive tree. See the difference? It's slight, but major.

                Therefore, the "Israel" in Rom. 11:26 that Paul is speaking of does not include Gentiles; only Jews - all of them! Amen!


                Ooops.

                Context and prior-precedence.

                Romans 11:17 "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree"

                Isn't togetherness in the Lord fun stuff? Racism and dis-unity just don't have a place in His tree!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
                  You do make mention of the Lord, because you profess Jesus' name! Therefore, we have an invitation to pray for and bless Jerusalem. So yes, you could say that we are the apple of God's eye - why? - because we wild olive tree branches have been grafted into the cultivated olive tree, and are now "one new man", but the Jews were not added into the Gentile man, but rather the Gentiles into the Jews! It is the Jews and the land of Israel that God is zealous for with great zeal, which is why we are grafted into them. Amen!
                  You separate Jews and Gentiles as if God has two different groups of people. But you have apparently overlooked passages like these:

                  7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
                  8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
                  9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. - Acts 15:7-9

                  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. - 1 Corinthians 12:13

                  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. - Romans 10:12

                  28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
                  29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:28-29

                  Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. - Colossians 3:11

                  Eric

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
                    Yes, I visited your blog, and plan on responding on it at a later time. My wife and I just had our firstborn not many days ago, and so my free time is rather sporadic (hence my being awake at 2 am!), but I try to make the best of what the Lord gives to me. The reason that I responded to all of your post minus the bit on Romans is because you mentioned that the OT passages were what flavored our respective interpretations of Romans. So, I gave response to the OT Scriptures first.

                    However, I would like to make a quick comment concerning Romans 9-11.

                    Every time the word "Israel" is mentioned, it means natural Israel, and never spiritual Israel.
                    Congratulations on your baby! Glad you found some free seconds to continue the discussion. You did an excellent job here of getting to the heart of our disagreement, for I would very much disagree that the word "Israel" always refers to natural Israel in Romans 9-11. Paul seems to go out of his way to make sure that we understand that he's working with 2 different definitions for the term!

                    For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
                    We hardly have to wonder what Paul means by saying not all who are descended from Israel are Israel since he proclaims the same truth in 2 different ways.

                    NOT ALL ISRAEL
                    1. Descended from Israel
                    2. His descendants
                    3. Natural Children

                    ARE ISRAEL
                    1. (true) Israel
                    2. Abraham's (true) children
                    3. Children of the promise

                    To put it must simply, he's saying it's not a matter of genetics, but a matter of faith. Your specific explanation of this text does, to me, seem to fly in the face of NT teaching regarding the 'one new man' and doesn't fit well with the verses Eric quoted about there being 'no difference.'

                    Later in chapter 9, Paul continues describing the difference between natural Israel and true Israel with the following quote from Isaiah

                    Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
                    "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
                    only the remnant will be saved.
                    This verse clearly states that NOT ALL natural Israelites will be saved. There is natural Israel and there is spiritual Israel which is, in part, made up of the remnant of the Jews. So we see here that he is continuing to recognize 2 different groups of 'Israel' (natural and true). Chapter 10 continues to declare that Paul desires for natural Israel to be saved, but they can't be saved simply by being natural Israel, they must call on the name of Jesus! (join the remnant)

                    What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened
                    Here again, in chapter 11, Paul is saying that God hasn't rejected Israel and uses himself as a walking illustration of that fact. God has accepted those Israelites who placed their faith in His Son Jesus Christ. What natural Israel sought, spiritual Israel obtained through Christ. But at any point the natural Israelites can become true Israelites if they do not persist in their unbelief (and they certainly don't have to wait till the end of the world to do this!)

                    So after speaking of 2 different groups within Israel throughout chapters 9-11, Paul brings the point home.

                    I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved
                    As I described in my blog post, the mystery is the fact that God has taken the Jewish remnant and Gentile believers and made them 1 new man. With that in mind, the rest of the verse fits well with what Paul had been saying in the previous 2 chapter. Natural Israel is hardened IN PART (the unbelieving part) until the full number of Gentiles (believing gentiles) has come in. And SO (as a result of the believing part of Israel believing and the believing part of gentiles coming in) all TRUE Israel will be saved. That's how I understand the verses.


                    In Christ,
                    matthew
                    The Matthew Never Knew
                    The Knew Kingdom

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Yes, I understand how you're interpreting Rom. 9:6, but I must say more clearly why I disagree with how you render it. Permit a key and definitions to aid the point that I'm making here.

                      key:
                      OOOOO
                      XXXXX
                      OOOOO
                      XXXXX

                      definitions:
                      red = of Israelite descent
                      blue = of Gentile descent
                      circles = united to cultivated olive tree
                      crosses = not united to cultivated olive tree, whether broken off or united to wild olive tree

                      Rom. 9:6 (actual)
                      For they are not all Israel who are of Israel.

                      not all red are circles, some are crosses

                      Rom. 9:6 (incorrect)
                      For they are not all of Israel who are Israel.

                      not all circles are red, some are blue


                      You see, what you have mistakenly done is interpreted Rom. 9:6's definition of "Israel" to include Gentiles when Paul's actual definition focuses solely on those of Israelite descent.

                      Therefore this colors your interpretation of the word Israel to mean Israel.

                      This is where we disagree.

                      God bless you in your ministry!

                      - luke e. leven
                      analyze. synthesize. repeat.

                      *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

                      Comment


                      • #26

                        ccccccc


                        These are children.

                        Their parents are 50% Israelite and 50% Gentile. (whether O or X)
                        OOOOO
                        XXXXX
                        OOOOO
                        XXXXX


                        I guess they don't fit on the lineage tree anywhere...so maybe we can find them a bush, or a nice fern to be apart of.


                        Or

                        We could remove the race issue, as Paul did, and just deal with human beings one by one...and how they relate or reject Jesus Christ.

                        Wonder why Jesus said, "Whosever will, let him come unto me?"

                        Sounds like that invitation would get all messed up if the wrong racial groups showed up at the door.....(If racial distinction truly were important to Him)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
                          You see, what you have mistakenly done is interpreted Rom. 9:6's definition of "Israel" to include Gentiles when Paul's actual definition focuses solely on those of Israelite descent
                          Actually, I have not done that. I take 9:6 simply to mean that not all natural Israelites are true Israelites. At this point in Paul's discussion, he has not yet added the gentile believers to true Israel. At this point, we agree, he is talking about those who are genetically Israelite and dividing them into 2 categories.

                          Of course, he later DOES add believing gentiles to the 'true Israel' group in the course of his argumentation, so we're safe to talk about them (believing Jews & Gentiles) as one unit even if 9:6 hadn't gotten that far in the argument yet. In other words, it doesn't matter if we include believing gentiles in 9:6 since Paul eventually adds them to the term 'true Israel' anyways.

                          So while I'm willing to work with the idea that 9:6 is only referring to 2 groups of genetic Israelites, I don't see whether we include believing gentiles in the 'true Israel' group as a significant issue in our overall disagreement. The main issue, of course, is in whether God has 2 people or 1.
                          The Matthew Never Knew
                          The Knew Kingdom

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by matthew94 View Post
                            Actually, I have not done that. I take 9:6 simply to mean that not all natural Israelites are true Israelites. At this point in Paul's discussion, he has not yet added the gentile believers to true Israel. At this point, we agree, he is talking about those who are genetically Israelite and dividing them into 2 categories.
                            Exactly.

                            At the point of Romans 9:6, Paul is discussing the following.

                            XO

                            BlueX which represents Faithful Israelites with Ethnic Israel.
                            and
                            BlueO which represents Unfaithful Isralites within Ethnic Israel.

                            By Paul saying, 'Not all Israel is Israel', he is showing who the true Israel is (by faith aka X, not by unfaithfulness and race O)

                            Later in chapter 11 Paul shows that unfaithful racial Israel O is stripped away and cast into the fire.

                            Paul then brings the Gentiles into the discussion, and shows that:

                            XO

                            RedX represents Faithful Gentiles.
                            RedO represents unfaithful Gentiles.

                            Paul then also proceeds to show that unfaithful Gentiles O are stripped away and cast into the fire.

                            And Paul shows how faithful Gentiles X are graffed in with faithful Israelites X into one tree, together partaking of the fatness of the root together.

                            Ending up with:
                            XX those who together comprise the true Israel of God, from all races.
                            andOO those who together comprise the unbelieving cast out, from all races.




                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I don't desire for any to mistakenly think that I am teaching that Jews are saved one way, and Gentiles another. "...for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). If I were to say such a thing, it would be heretical. Paul even says the same thing in Rom. 10:9-10.

                              Now, how do you understand the word "elect"? Do you have to be presently saved to be elect, or can you just be appointed unto salvation and presently be unsaved? Perhaps a better way to ask this would be this: Where you "elect" before you came to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ?
                              analyze. synthesize. repeat.

                              *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
                                I don't desire for any to mistakenly think that I am teaching that Jews are saved one way, and Gentiles another. "...for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). If I were to say such a thing, it would be heretical. Paul even says the same thing in Rom. 10:9-10.

                                Now, how do you understand the word "elect"? Do you have to be presently saved to be elect, or can you just be appointed unto salvation and presently be unsaved? Perhaps a better way to ask this would be this: Where you "elect" before you came to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ?
                                Paul makes it clear in Romans 11 that he is referring to those up to that present time are those he is calling "elect", those who have already come to the saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ:

                                Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

                                Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.


                                Shirley

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X