Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Holy Spirit Baptism?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Holy Spirit Baptism?

    hey guys, i just had a question that has been kinda bugging me that im lookin for answers on

    ok basically concerning baptism of the Holy Spirit

    were the disciples of Jesus (not including Judas) already born again by the Spirit? did they already have the indwelling Spirit? or did the Spirit just reveal things to them somehow?

    And when they tarried in Acts and began to speak in toungues,

    was this their first time being baptized and recieving the Spirit, or did they already have it and it just manifested itself more strongly?


    And finally, how does this all relate to the church today? i find it interesting, there was a passage in Acts where Paul came across some believers and asked them had they recieved the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and then they said they never heard of it and he prayed over them and they spoke in toungues.

    So how does this work for us today? Are all believers baptised by the Spirit when they are born again? or do they get saved but then there is another experience of pouring out the Spirit in them? or when they get saved do they just have a little of the SPirit and then later on they get filled?


    Please provide scripture if you know any

    it would be interesting to hear from someone with the reformed view such as mine, because even i admit i do not understand this.

    I think Jesus breathed on the apostles and said recieve the Spirit, but then told them to tarry and he would send the Comforter.

    please help out thanks!

  • #2
    In scripture the disciples received the Holy Spirit in John 20=at this time the Holy Spirit indwelt them and they were born again. They were baptised in the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4 At this time they were filled to overflowing with the Holy Spirit and as they were filled, rivers of living water flowed out from them-with tongues as the initial evidence of this blessing. Things are not any different now, for those who will accept there is the baptism in the Spirit--it is from Jesus and is for Christians. So while all Christians have the indwelling Spirit-not all Christians are baptised in the Spirit-but they could and should be.
    Jesus is our baptiser in the Spirit and He is the Same forever.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by godsgirl View Post
      In scripture the disciples received the Holy Spirit in John 20=at this time the Holy Spirit indwelt them and they were born again. They were baptised in the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4 At this time they were filled to overflowing with the Holy Spirit and as they were filled, rivers of living water flowed out from them-with tongues as the initial evidence of this blessing. Things are not any different now, for those who will accept there is the baptism in the Spirit--it is from Jesus and is for Christians. So while all Christians have the indwelling Spirit-not all Christians are baptised in the Spirit-but they could and should be.
      Jesus is our baptiser in the Spirit and He is the Same forever.
      makes sense to me!

      Comment


      • #4
        The Spirit was promised to be sent to each man, to live and reside within each one of us:

        John 16
        7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

        That couldn't happen until Christ "went away". He had to die and be raised up in order for that to happen.

        The Spirit did work through, but didn't indwell, a man of faith until Christ returned to where He was sent from.

        We today, in this time after Penticost, don't need to wait. That indwelling comes to us when we are truly born again. It can come at our moment of confession and repentance or it may not, depending on where our heart is.

        Our fruit of faith is testimony that we do indeed have the Spirit working in us, to give knowledge and wisdom as we mature. It is through the Spirit how we receive the gifts of the Spirit.

        There is no formal baptism of the Spirit. If you are indwelt with the Spirit, how much more baptized in Him can you really be?
        Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
        Not second or third, but first.
        Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
        when He is the source of all hope,
        when His love is received and freely given,
        holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
        will all other things be added unto to you.

        Comment


        • #5
          To really understand this reformedct, you need to divide it into three sections that we find in the bible.

          The Holy Spirit is With you, In you, and Upon you.


          1) With you - The Holy Spirit is with you before salvation to convict you. (John 14:17)
          2) In you - He comes in you at salvation to indwell, and to seal you. (John 20:22)
          3) Upon you - He comes upon you to empower you for service, to be witnesses (Acts 1:8)
          We are his body, We are his representative, We are the extension of God to the earth. Every action should be a extension of God's love.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by threebigrocks View Post
            The Spirit was promised to be sent to each man, to live and reside within each one of us:

            John 16
            7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

            That couldn't happen until Christ "went away". He had to die and be raised up in order for that to happen.

            The Spirit did work through, but didn't indwell, a man of faith until Christ returned to where He was sent from.

            We today, in this time after Penticost, don't need to wait. That indwelling comes to us when we are truly born again. It can come at our moment of confession and repentance or it may not, depending on where our heart is.

            Our fruit of faith is testimony that we do indeed have the Spirit working in us, to give knowledge and wisdom as we mature. It is through the Spirit how we receive the gifts of the Spirit.

            There is no formal baptism of the Spirit. If you are indwelt with the Spirit, how much more baptized in Him can you really be?

            While this is a common understanding of the Baptism in the Spirit it is NOT Biblical.
            The Bible shows plainly that these are two seperate events.

            Jesus called the "baptism in the Spirit" the PROMISE of the Father.

            "for this promise is to you, to your children, and to all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by godsgirl View Post
              While this is a common understanding of the Baptism in the Spirit it is NOT Biblical.
              The Bible shows plainly that these are two seperate events.

              Jesus called the "baptism in the Spirit" the PROMISE of the Father.

              "for this promise is to you, to your children, and to all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."


              1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


              How do you then explain this verse? This doesn't look like a seperate event to me, where some are baptized into one body, and some are not. It clearly states that by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body. You're trying to claim that if one doesn't receive of the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a seperate event, evidenced by the speaking of tongues, that person is not baptized into one body by one Spirit, thus meaning that person is not a member of the body of Christ, even tho verse 27 of that ch tells us otherwise.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by godsgirl View Post
                While this is a common understanding of the Baptism in the Spirit it is NOT Biblical.
                The Bible shows plainly that these are two seperate events.

                Jesus called the "baptism in the Spirit" the PROMISE of the Father.

                "for this promise is to you, to your children, and to all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."
                The promise is baptism of the Spirit? Not understanding that at all. God calls many, drawing them to Him through His Son. That is the only way to salvation, to heed the call of the Father and believe on His Son whom He sent.

                The promise isn't the baptism of the Spirit. That is what was given to us in order to gain wisdom, understanding and have comfort now. If that is the promise, what about our redemption? Do we gain that redemption, fully and not in faith, now? No. Right now, for us we have all things through faith. The promise is to come when we are resurrected as Christ was into eternity, body and spirit.

                What do you think the promise is? Why do we have hope in that promise? If we already can have it now, then what's the point of faith? Let's use scripture as we look at this.
                Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
                Not second or third, but first.
                Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
                when He is the source of all hope,
                when His love is received and freely given,
                holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
                will all other things be added unto to you.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by divaD View Post
                  1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


                  How do you then explain this verse? This doesn't look like a seperate event to me, where some are baptized into one body, and some are not. It clearly states that by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body. You're trying to claim that if one doesn't receive of the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a seperate event, evidenced by the speaking of tongues, that person is not baptized into one body by one Spirit, thus meaning that person is not a member of the body of Christ, even tho verse 27 of that ch tells us otherwise.

                  That verse is very plain-by one Spirit we were all baptised into one body.

                  The Holy Spirit places us into the body of Christ at the moment of salvation.
                  I don't understand your confusion.

                  The Holy Spirit baptises us into the Body The Holy Spirit is our baptiser and the body of Christ is the element.
                  Jesus baptises us in the Holy Spirit,, Jesus is our baptiser and the Holy Spirit is the element.
                  We are baptised in water--another Christian is our baptiser and water is the element.

                  and yes, He is the One who called the baptism in the Spirit "the Promise of the Father-in Acts 1, and Luke 24:49

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by godsgirl View Post
                    I don't understand your confusion.


                    I'm basically confused when looking at this from the charismatic perspective. Are you saying that this baptism in 1 Corinthians 12:13 is not the same as the baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in tongues?
                    How many different baptisms of the Holy Spirit are there? That's what I'm confused about.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by divaD View Post
                      I'm basically confused when looking at this from the charismatic perspective. Are you saying that this baptism in 1 Corinthians 12:13 is not the same as the baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in tongues?
                      How many different baptisms of the Holy Spirit are there? That's what I'm confused about.

                      Charismatics tend in my experience to want to separate what happens at salvation from the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit". At least that's what I've been told by the few I have known in my lifetime. I don't find it to be biblically sound though.

                      Now the question was asked whether the disciples were saved before Christ died on the cross. That's a question that I'd like to say yes they were, but lately I'm thinking that they probably were not. Why do I say this? What is salvation? Is it not by faith in the grace Christ shed on the Cross? The disciples didn't seem to understand that he both had and would die and then rise. It was not until they saw him risen that they began to understand what he had been saying.

                      The other thing you see at pentecost is a slight change in the ministration of the Holy Spirit. Before Christ God's spirit would come upon certain people (usually prophets, but sometimes kings or judges) for a specific ministry, but based on my understanding of the OT. The average person did not have access in this same way. (Now I know some will say that I'm speaking of dispensationalism, but I really don't believe that has anything to do with it.)

                      I believe the bible teaches that you must be born of water and spirit. You cannot be born of the spirit unless you are a believer, and I do not believe God waits to baptize his people. There really is nothing in the bible doctrinally that this has to stand on, but some vague references to a few sign gifts (a few of which actually happened before they believed as I recall (Cornelius's Family)).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bladers View Post
                        To really understand this reformedct, you need to divide it into three sections that we find in the bible.

                        The Holy Spirit is With you, In you, and Upon you.


                        1) With you - The Holy Spirit is with you before salvation to convict you. (John 14:17)
                        2) In you - He comes in you at salvation to indwell, and to seal you. (John 20:22)
                        3) Upon you - He comes upon you to empower you for service, to be witnesses (Acts 1:8)
                        Originally posted by godsgirl View Post
                        The Bible shows plainly that these are two seperate events.
                        Acts 19:1-7 is a great example of this so the separation between the two are clearly defined in the Bible.
                        Slug1--out

                        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Veretax View Post
                          Charismatics tend in my experience to want to separate what happens at salvation from the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit". At least that's what I've been told by the few I have known in my lifetime.
                          I agree. Most pentecostals (I could use "Bible Believers", or whatever label I wanted to better frame my opinion ) believe that Holy Spirit baptism is a subsequent work of grace in the walk of the Christian. Continuing or further grace for the Christian is part of the Gospel message IMO. Setting aside tongues and any other controversial manifestation of the Spirit, I think most everyone agrees that we don't receive one and only one download of everything that the Lord has in store for us at the moment of salvation. We aren't beamed up to heaven and for most of us we still face a life in this world as Christians. We start off as babes born full of new life; but also with a dependance on our new Father to come to full maturity. In that process, we receive what we will receive for our growth in the same way we receive God's grace for salvation.

                          What gets me about this topic is the "I will not seek nor will I accept" attitude of many believers. Perhaps some base that response on scripture.
                          Originally posted by Veretax
                          I don't find it to be biblically sound though.
                          Voila! Just like I proposed!

                          Scripturally, I believe more twists and turns to scripture are offered in discounting Holy Spirit baptism than supporting it. Said another way, those who discount a subsequent Holy Spirit baptism always start at the same place as those who believe in a subsequent Holy Spirit baptism. That agreement is that Holy Spirit baptism plays a prominent role in scripture and in the first century Church as recorded in the Book of Acts. In other words, Holy Spirit baptism is certainly scriptural. The discussion always centers around whether this "subsided" after the deaths of the original Apostles or not. Others suggest that the Book of Acts should not be employed in doctrine. Still others say that the scriptural accounts of Holy Spirit baptism "waned" as the Church was established as shown in Acts. However, the last recorded incident of Holy Spirit baptism occurred just after the last recorded incident of water baptism.

                          Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
                          ...
                          8 And there was great joy in that city.
                          ...
                          14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

                          15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

                          16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

                          We see in the above that the Gospel was preached (v. 5) and the people at the revival had received the word of God (v. 14)! They were also baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (v. 16).

                          But there is an expectation for those who had received the word of God to subsequently receive the Holy Ghost (v. 15).

                          There is a lot here to be discerned about the Holy Ghost, but we will just leave it as scriptural support for subsequent baptism of the Holy Ghost. For when the Apostles were come down, we see:

                          17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

                          We see why maybe the revival was hindered and required the Apostles' presence. There was one attending named Simon whose heart wasn't right regarding power:

                          18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

                          19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

                          20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

                          The point I would like to make about the above account of Simon is contained in verse 20. What is the "gift of God" that Peter talks about? Is it salvation that he is referring to or something else? This is a fine point but gets to the heart of the matter.

                          Is there a gift of God that is not received of us? Do we have a "I will not seek nor will I accept" attitude towards anything after salvation?

                          Anyway, the scripture supports Holy Spirit Baptism. The question is does the scripture support a different way now than then.

                          God Bless!
                          Watchinginawe

                          I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I'm sorry if you have a problem with the label "Charismatic" I didn't give them that label they claim that label for themselves. Frankly I take exception to it because I am of the belief that at salvation each of us is given Spiritual Gifts (the word from which Charismatic comes from btw).

                            One and only one download? I've never heard anything like that before, where is this found in scripture? (never heard the phrase beamed up to heaven either.)



                            Originally posted by watchinginawe View Post
                            <img src="images/aux-s/18yes.gif" border="0" alt="" title="yes" smilieid="61" class="inlineimg" /> I agree. Most pentecostals (I could use &quot;Bible Believers&quot;, or whatever label I wanted to better frame my opinion <img src="images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" smilieid="5" class="inlineimg" />) believe that Holy Spirit baptism is a subsequent work of grace in the walk of the Christian. Continuing or further grace for the Christian is part of the Gospel message IMO. Setting aside tongues and any other controversial manifestation of the Spirit, I think most everyone agrees that we don't receive one and only one download of everything that the Lord has in store for us at the moment of salvation. We aren't beamed up to heaven and for most of us we still face a life in this world as Christians. We start off as babes born full of new life; but also with a dependance on our new Father to come to full maturity. In that process, we receive what we will receive for our growth in the same way we receive God's grace for salvation.<br />
                            <br />
                            What gets me about this topic is the &quot;I will not seek nor will I accept&quot; attitude of many believers. Perhaps some base that response on scripture. Voila! Just like I proposed! <img src="images/smilies/lol.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Laugh out Loud" smilieid="22" class="inlineimg" /> <br />
                            <br />
                            Scripturally, I believe more twists and turns to scripture are offered in discounting Holy Spirit baptism than supporting it. <img src="images/smilies/scratch_chin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="hmm" smilieid="16" class="inlineimg" /> Said another way, those who discount a subsequent Holy Spirit baptism always start at the same place as those who believe in a subsequent Holy Spirit baptism. That agreement is that Holy Spirit baptism plays a prominent role in scripture and in the first century Church as recorded in the Book of Acts. In other words, Holy Spirit baptism is certainly scriptural. The discussion always centers around whether this &quot;subsided&quot; after the deaths of the original Apostles or not. Others suggest the the Book of Acts should not be employed in doctrine. Still others say that the scriptural accounts of Holy Spirit baptism &quot;waned&quot; as the Church was established as shown in Acts. However, the last recorded incident of Holy Spirit baptism occurred just after the last recorded incident of water baptism. <img src="images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" smilieid="5" class="inlineimg" /><br />
                            <br />
                            <font color="blue">Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. </font><br />
                            <font color="blue">...</font><br />
                            <font color="blue">8 And there was great joy in that city. </font><br />
                            <font color="blue">...</font><br />
                            <font color="blue">14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: </font><br />
                            <br />
                            <font color="blue">15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: </font><br />
                            <br />
                            <font color="blue">16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) </font><br />
                            <br />
                            <font color="black">We see in the above that the Gospel was preached (v. 5) and the people at the revival had received the word of God (v. 14)! They were also baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (v. 16).</font><br />
                            <br />
                            But there is an expectation for those who had received the word of God to subsequently receive the Holy Ghost (v. 15).<br />
                            <br />
                            There is a lot here to be discerned about the Holy Ghost, but we will just leave it as scriptural support for subsequent baptism of the Holy Ghost. For when the Apostles were come down, we see:<br />
                            <br />
                            <font color="blue">17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.</font> <br />
                            <br />
                            <font color="black">We see why maybe the revival was hindered and required the Apostles' presence. There was one attending named Simon whose heart wasn't right regarding power:</font><br />
                            <br />
                            <font color="blue">18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, </font><br />
                            <br />
                            <font color="blue">19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. </font><br />
                            <br />
                            <font color="blue">20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.</font><br />
                            <br />
                            <font color="black">The point I would like to make about the above account of Simon is contained in verse 20. What is the &quot;gift of God&quot; that Peter talks about? Is it salvation that he is referring to or something else? This is a fine point but gets to the heart of the matter. </font><br />
                            <br />
                            <font color="black">Is there a gift of God that is not received of us? Do we have a &quot;I will not seek nor will I accept&quot; attitude towards anything after salvation?</font><br />
                            <br />
                            Anyway, the scripture supports Holy Spirit Baptism. The question is does the scripture support a different way now than then.<br />
                            <br />
                            God Bless!
                            <br />
                            <br />


                            Simon Magus. You know they made a movie about that fellow, i saw it once a while ago, not certain how factual it was, but my understanding was this fellow saw the marvelous works of the apostles, and he wanted the power they had, why (he was a magician by trade), but peter rebuked him for it. It sounds to me like the man was not saved judging based on the account.

                            I somewhat agree, I believe the "baptism of the holy spirit" (btw what does baptism mean if to be immersed......thus baptism of the holy spirit is to be immersed in the spirit, or as Paul said to be filled/full?) I believe this happens at the moment of Salvation, and I also believe that at that moment we have access to all of the gifts (spiritual) that God decided we needed. I don't believe he gives a new, or another new, or a repeat of these gifts, although as we grow we may learn how to use the gifts we were given initially better. (I've read that some people may not use a gift because they don't recognize they have it, but I'm not sure how scriptural that is.)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Veretax View Post
                              One and only one download? I've never heard anything like that before, where is this found in scripture? (never heard the phrase beamed up to heaven either.)
                              Is it your suggestion that I was offering those comments as being scriptural? I hope you aren't disagreeing with me just to disagree.
                              Originally posted by Veretax
                              ... I believe the "baptism of the holy spirit" (btw what does baptism mean if to be immersed......thus baptism of the holy spirit is to be immersed in the spirit, or as Paul said to be filled/full?) I believe this happens at the moment of Salvation, and I also believe that at that moment we have access to all of the gifts (spiritual) that God decided we needed. I don't believe he gives a new, or another new, or a repeat of these gifts, although as we grow we may learn how to use the gifts we were given initially better. (I've read that some people may not use a gift because they don't recognize they have it, but I'm not sure how scriptural that is.)
                              Your original point was that you didn't believe that subsequent Holy Spirit baptism was scriptural. I think my post addresses that issue scripturally. Do you believe that the Samaritans in the scripture I offered received Salvation by the laying on of the hands of the Apostles? Or were they already saved and baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus; and then they received a subsequent "gift of God"? Or do you think the events recorded in the 8th Chapter of Acts were a special circumstance? I'm not sure what you suggest in regards to the scriptural example I offered.

                              I will lay it out a little clearer. You suggested:
                              Originally posted by Veretax
                              Charismatics tend in my experience to want to separate what happens at salvation from the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit".
                              ...
                              I don't find it to be biblically sound though.
                              So, for the folks in Chapter 8 of Acts, was there a separation of events? If not, are you suggesting that those that received the word of God and were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus were not yet saved? Were they saved when they received the Holy Ghost? If the later, isn't that still a "separation of events"?

                              God Bless!
                              Watchinginawe

                              I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X