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  • Bladers
    replied
    Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
    Bladers already sufficiently answered your question with the passages in Matthew 18. In Matthew 18 Jesus is talking about the same binding and loosing that He was talking about with Peter in Matthew 16. Yet, in Matthew 18 it isn't anywhere near exclusive to just Peter. Therefore, neither is the passages in Matthew 16.

    Jesus was saying that He is the Rock . . . and on that Rock, or firm foundation, will the church be built. The same can be related to what Jesus proclaimed in Matthew 7 about the man who builds his house on the rock. Jesus was not proclaiming in Matthew 7 that if a man builds his house on Peter then it will stand. He was saying that if a man builds his house on the Rock that is Jesus Christ that there is nothing that will make that house fall. Paul talks about this same firm foundation in 1 Corinthians 3 where he proclaims that the only works that will endure the fire of that Day are the ones that were built on the foundation of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    So, the Rock in Matthew 16, especially when compared with the whole of Scripture, is VERY clearly talking about our Lord Jesus Christ and not Peter.
    Perfectly stated, wont had changed a thing..

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  • VerticalReality
    replied
    Originally posted by neverleaveunorfors View Post
    back to the question just who did the Christ give the keys to heaven to in matt 16:19?
    Bladers already sufficiently answered your question with the passages in Matthew 18. In Matthew 18 Jesus is talking about the same binding and loosing that He was talking about with Peter in Matthew 16. Yet, in Matthew 18 it isn't anywhere near exclusive to just Peter. Therefore, neither is the passages in Matthew 16.

    Jesus was saying that He is the Rock . . . and on that Rock, or firm foundation, will the church be built. The same can be related to what Jesus proclaimed in Matthew 7 about the man who builds his house on the rock. Jesus was not proclaiming in Matthew 7 that if a man builds his house on Peter then it will stand. He was saying that if a man builds his house on the Rock that is Jesus Christ that there is nothing that will make that house fall. Paul talks about this same firm foundation in 1 Corinthians 3 where he proclaims that the only works that will endure the fire of that Day are the ones that were built on the foundation of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    So, the Rock in Matthew 16, especially when compared with the whole of Scripture, is VERY clearly talking about our Lord Jesus Christ and not Peter.

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  • Biastai
    replied
    Just thought I'd offer some scriptural parallels I thought were interesting...

    "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
    Matthew 16:18,19, the passage being discussed

    "I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open."
    Isaiah 22:22, words referring to Eliakim, a newly appointed steward in charge of the temple

    "I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."
    Revelation 1:18, reference to Christ and not Peter

    "To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
    These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open."
    Revelation 3:7, reference to Christ and not Peter

    All this is lacking in the Markan account, and it just doesn't fit. Jesus is said to say, "Blessed are you..," and seemingly moments later, he calls him "Satan" in verse 23. So Peter is blessed for receiving a revelation of Jesus' messiahship but then blasted for opposing Jesus' idea of a suffering messiah? The resulting suspicions are more strongly confirmed in that the words "and on this rock I will build my church" is absent from a manuscript used by 4th century patristic writer, Ephrem Syrus (Jesus of Nazareth, Joseph Klausner).

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by neverleaveunorfors View Post
    Just what did Jesus mean? when he said Upon this rock I shall build my church Lots of Love James
    I don't have time to pull out my bible...so feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

    Wasn't there a little question and answer segment between Messiah and Peter before that statement? If I am right in my waining memory...didn't it go something like:

    (J)Who do the people say I am. (P) Some say Elijah, others John the Baptist(?). (J) Who do YOU say I am? (P) Thou are Messiah, the son of the living God. (J) Very good Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father which is in heaven. For you are Peter, and upon this rock build my church.

    If that is the conversation....then what the church is being built on is the piece of information shared between them. The fact that Yahshua (Jesus) is the awaited Messiah, our redemption, that's the rock...that piece of information.

    Not only does that fit into their conversation, it fits with the entire context of the NT. Everything we are, everything we do, every hope we have....hangs on the fact that Yahshua is the Messiah, our salvation. The "people" were wrong, he wasn't Eliyah, he is Messiah and upon that is his church (assembly) built.

    Peace.
    Ken

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  • Bladers
    replied
    Originally posted by neverleaveunorfors View Post
    back to the question just who did the Christ give the keys to heaven to in matt 16:19?
    I told you, but you didnt comment nor accept it!

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  • neverleaveunorfors
    replied
    yes I believe that

    back to the question just who did the Christ give the keys to heaven to in matt 16:19?
    Last edited by neverleaveunorfors; Dec 21st 2008, 08:10 PM. Reason: wrong verse

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  • threebigrocks
    replied
    How is it twisting?

    What you said has truth to it, but just because they didn't understand it right away doesn't make the truth of what that passage means any different.

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  • neverleaveunorfors
    replied
    it applies to your comment

    how can you twist just what he said to peter

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  • threebigrocks
    replied
    Originally posted by neverleaveunorfors View Post
    he was teaching and at the time scripture was closed to the dicipiles even untill past death how many times did he tell them of his death and still did not understand untill he opened the scriptures to them after reserction so .........................................
    They did understand fully, once the Spirit could reveal it to them. That is the same way we come to understanding now - through scripture by the Spirit. It's the correct understanding that matters, not what was misunderstood or not known at one time. The truth did come to light when it was needed and necessary. That is what matters.

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  • Bladers
    replied
    Originally posted by neverleaveunorfors View Post
    he was teaching and at the time scripture was closed to the dicipiles even untill past death how many times did he tell them of his death and still did not understand untill he opened the scriptures to them after reserction so .........................................
    How does this contribute to this topic?

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  • neverleaveunorfors
    replied
    he was teaching and at the time scripture was closed to the dicipiles even untill past death how many times did he tell them of his death and still did not understand untill he opened the scriptures to them after reserction so .........................................

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  • Bladers
    replied
    Originally posted by neverleaveunorfors View Post
    And his body is the church or I should say the Body of Christ is the church and I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven ( not the keys of hades and of death rev.1;18 ) ( and here they are )what ever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and what ever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven .Ok so we know Christ already had this but now he just gave it to who? ok now john 20;21 -23 read it and now do you still believe Peter was not given the keys and maybe not an actual key but knowledge of heaven
    NO NO NO NO, Jesus gave it to as many that believes in his name, Jesus was talking about the power of prayer.

    Look at it again in chapter 18, Binding and loosing is a whole different thing. When Jesus was talking about this rock, He was saying the revelation of Himself, For He is the Rock of Ages, He is that ROCK.

    Matthew 18:18-20 - "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

    Here, Jesus was talking about the power of prayer. and in verse 20, He refers to himself(the Rock) , He will be in their midst (REVELATION OF HIMSELF TO THEM)

    THE KEY IS PRAYER, AND ITS FOR BINDING AND LOOSING!

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  • neverleaveunorfors
    replied
    of course Christ is the stumbling stone put before the Jews

    And his body is the church or I should say the Body of Christ is the church and I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven ( not the keys of hades and of death rev.1;18 ) ( and here they are )what ever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and what ever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven .Ok so we know Christ already had this but now he just gave it to who? ok now john 20;21 -23 read it and now do you still believe Peter was not given the keys and maybe not an actual key but knowledge of heaven

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  • SIG
    replied
    Jesus was making a play on words here. "You are Petros (small stone), and upon this petra (large rock, cliff) I will build my church." The large rock is Christ. Peter perceived the truth because in this instance, he spoke as a little rock.

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  • threebigrocks
    replied
    Originally posted by neverleaveunorfors View Post
    Thanks for your comment > but back to Matt was it not Peter that recieved the keys ? So what did Jesus mean When he said upon this rock I shall build my church ?
    Question #1 - No. Christ holds the keys to the kingdom. This thinking removes Christ from salvation, and makes the key to salvation Peter.

    Question #2 - As I've said, and as TF has said - it was the FAITH Peter had that was the rock. Not Peter himself. Peter was named for his faith, and it's something that we call can have in the same measure - and greater - than Peter had.

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