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  • Death in the Garden....(Physicle or Spiritual)

    I'm going to keep this intro to this thread short, instead of including my thoughts on this topic with it. I do not make this thread to cause division among us. I make this thread in hopes that we all dig into the Scripture that Our Lord has provided for us, with the hopes that we all draw closer to Him through our Study for Gods Glory, and Gods Glory only. I wish to keep this thread as peaceful as possible so that those who do not participate with the Study, and just follow along, can learn also, and grow along with us.

    I Give Praise to God for the opportunity to have this discussion, and pray that He keeps His Blessing on it for us, and His Glory.

    Thank you for your time,

    God Bless,

    Dave
    In Christ Love

    BCF

    2 Peter 1:20-21:

    "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation. For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

    Search and believe the Scripture, before you believe anything man tells you.

  • #2
    This is a topic that has started from another thread, that I have decided to make it's own thread, thanks to the suggestion from Trusting Follower. The thread is about the Death of Adam in the Garden. Was it a Physical Death...or was it a Spiritual Death. I say that it was a Spiritual Death, and to start things off I will say for this reason:

    "Genesis 2:17, But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

    In this verse we find God saying to Adam that if he ate from the tree....he would die in the day that he ate from it. The word die in Greek means apoleia...meaning, ruin or loss physical or Spiritual eternal. We all know that Adam did not die a physical death, b/c he went on to live 900+ years after eating from the tree.

    Some say that Psalms 90:4, which says:

    "For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night."

    And 2Peter 3:8, which says:

    "¶But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day."

    Supports the fact....along with other scripture....that Adam died a Physical Death in the Garden.

    I do not see that support in those two scriptures, which is the reason for the start of this thread. That should bring everyone up to date on this thread, so nobody gets lost, now we can all start our Study from here.

    God Bless to you all,

    Dave
    In Christ Love

    BCF

    2 Peter 1:20-21:

    "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation. For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

    Search and believe the Scripture, before you believe anything man tells you.

    Comment


    • #3
      Sin in the garden introduced death two-fold to us.

      1) It introduced the physical death of our bodies
      2) It introduced the spiritual death of our souls...and God quickly showed us both in word and phyiscal imagery, that a saviour would come to take away our sins.

      Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

      Genesis 3:21 "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."


      The first animal sacrifice, pointing to the true sacrifice (Jesus) that would later come who would provide salvation from their sins.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
        Sin in the garden introduced death two-fold to us.

        1) It introduced the physical death of our bodies
        2) It introduced the spiritual death of our souls...and God quickly showed us both in word and phyiscal imagery, that a saviour would come to take away our sins.

        Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

        Genesis 3:21 "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

        The first animal sacrifice, pointing to the true sacrifice (Jesus) that would later come who would provide salvation from their sins.
        I can agree that it introduced physical death...yes, but Adam and Eve did not die a physical death in the Garden. In Genesis 3:7, I read this, which tells me that they did not die a physical death:

        "And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves (aprons)"...(which in Hebrew means coverings).

        What this tells me is that after they had eaten from the tree, they discovered sin...which was something that they did not know. So they covered up the sin. If they died a physical death as some say...they never would have seen what sin was in the first place. Like I said before. God said in Genesis 2:17, that if they would eat from the tree...they would die on the day that they ate of it. Well...they did die on the day that they ate of the tree. A Spiritual Death....not a Physical Death.

        And yes...it not only introduced a Spiritual Death...but according to the writings of Moses... a Spiritual Death actually happened in the Garden. And your scripture was perfect to prove that point.

        God Bless

        Dave
        In Christ Love

        BCF

        2 Peter 1:20-21:

        "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation. For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

        Search and believe the Scripture, before you believe anything man tells you.

        Comment


        • #5
          The death had to be a physical death also. The physical testifies to the spiritual all through out the scriptures. God manifests thing in the physical in order for man to see what is really going on which is spiritual. So from the verses we see that a year to God is 1000 years of our time and hence Adam died 70 years short of one day. If this was not true then God would have had no reason for baring them from the tree of life.

          Genesis 3

          22 ¶Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" --

          So we know that God does not lie so we have to conclude that when he said they would surely die in the day they ate of the tree of good and evil, then he meant they would physically die. This also caused the spiritual death because they were separated for the intimate communion with God so the spiritual death happened instantly, but the physical took 930 to come to fullness.
          I am a Christian man in the Devil's land, spreading the gospel man to man.
          Have you laid your burdens down?

          Comment


          • #6
            They did not die physically or spiritually that day, in a technical sense. They died both physically and spiritually in a more meaningful sense.

            How can we claim that they died that day physically? Certainly not literally. But they were, indeed, cut off from the tree of life, and since God alone is immortal, they no longer were connected to what was necessary for gifted immortality. Because of this, that day began their physical death.

            How can we claim that they spiritually died that day? Not literally. They still had contact with God. They still had a relationship with God (albeit damaged). They still had an interest in God. They died spiritually in a more important sense, just like they died physically in a more important sense than literal. They were now disconnected, in the most important degree, from intimacy with God and each other.

            I think rather than try to determine in what way they literally died on that "day," we should focus on the word "death." I interpret the verse to mean something more along the lines of "the day you eat it will surely produce death." God is saying that that specific act is what is responsible for death being introduced into mankind.

            Just my 2 cents
            The Matthew Never Knew
            The Knew Kingdom

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
              Sin in the garden introduced death two-fold to us.

              1) It introduced the physical death of our bodies
              2) It introduced the spiritual death of our souls...and God quickly showed us both in word and phyiscal imagery, that a saviour would come to take away our sins.

              Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

              Genesis 3:21 "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

              The first animal sacrifice, pointing to the true sacrifice (Jesus) that would later come who would provide salvation from their sins.
              ---------------------------------------------------------------------

              Yes a 'two-fold' introduction to physical death and spiritual death...

              Where the 1st Adam failed the 2nd Adam, Jesus the Christ.. did not.. the 1st Adam was made a living soul.. but the 2nd Adam (last Adam) was made a 'quickening' Spirit... thus Redemption and Forgiveness thru His shed blood giving the soul/spirit/body (person) Eternal Life.. this thru belief in the Christ Jesus's completed and Atoning/Redemptive Work on that bloody tree.. the Gift of Righteousness ... and Eternal Life....

              In the end death itself will be but a faded memory.. it cast into the Lake of Fire... and the curse of sin no more.. God's Redemptive Plan completed and

              death oh death.. where is thy vicotry? where is they 'sting'?

              it is 'no more'...

              Conquered and defeated by Christ's Own Physical Death on that bloody tree and subsequent Resurrection from the Dead.. the TOMB IS EMPTY!


              And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
              Many appear Righteous and Just because they say 'yes' to Jesus Christ , yet they don't do His Will.
              ------------------------------------------------
              Verily I say unto thee, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the Kingdom of Heaven before you do.
              ------------------------------------------------
              The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying. YEA, I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with LOVINGKINDESS have I DRAWN THEE.
              Jeremiah 31:3

              Comment


              • #8
                TrustingFollower,

                Good Morning my friend,

                The death had to be a physical death also. The physical testifies to the spiritual all through out the scriptures.
                This can't be. The physical is the body (flesh), and Paul tells us in Romans 7 that the flesh is carnal. A carnal body cannot testify for a Spiritual body. The Spiritual body comes from God. The canal body comes from man.
                Physical cannot testify for the Spiritual. Gods Spirit will not strive with man.

                God manifests thing in the physical in order for man to see what is really going on which is spiritual.
                This cannot be either. God manifest things from the heart. Only God can see the heart of man...we cannot. Jesus says in Luke 6:45 this,

                "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good."

                All we see is the good treasure....but whether or not that good treasure is true from the heart or not we don't see. Only God knows what is good and what is not good. In Mark 10:18, we have the rich young ruler calling Jesus good Master in verse 17. Then in verse 18 Jesus says this to him:

                "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God."

                Even Jesus himself questioned someone when they called him (Jesus) good. Why? Because the rich young ruler did not know the heart of Jesus...which is why the rich young ruler could not do what Jesus asked him to do in verse 21. Jesus being God knew the rulers heart....but the ruler did not know the heart of Jesus. All the ruler saw was the outward affects of what Jesus did. That is all we see in people also....the outward affect of their heart. But we have know idea where there heart is with God. The rich young ruler did a lot of good things and even kept all of the commandments from his youth on up. But his heart still was not with God. So for God to manifest things in the physical in order for man to see what is really going on can't be right. It was not that way with the rich young ruler.

                This also caused the spiritual death because they were separated for the intimate communion with God so the spiritual death happened instantly, but the physical took 930 to come to fullness.
                If this were the case....well then in what way do you believe that Eve was thinking she would not die by eating of the tree, when satan told her in Genesis 3:4, that she should not surly die?
                In Christ Love

                BCF

                2 Peter 1:20-21:

                "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation. For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

                Search and believe the Scripture, before you believe anything man tells you.

                Comment


                • #9
                  One cannot die 'spiritually' and then not die 'physically'... Sin in the Garden afftected them both Physically and Spiritually.... the physical death would come later ..but it was a result of sin.... The body will return to the dust from whence it came or was formed.. this is a result of sin.. and the soul/spirit will either be with God (born again) or separated from God for Eternity (eternal damnation) .. God made a way though.. thru His Own Sacrafice... His Own Begotten...God in the flesh.... who was sinless and accomplished what the 1st Adam could not.. to walk perfectly and in obedience to the Father... the way it was planned. with out disobedience and its tragic results which was death physically and death spiritually..

                  The Last Adam was made a quickening Spirit giving 'life' to those who are dead in trespasses and sins.. being Born Again....

                  One must ask oneself? Have I been quickened by that "last Adam"... Have you experienced the New Birth.. which God starts and finishes...
                  Many appear Righteous and Just because they say 'yes' to Jesus Christ , yet they don't do His Will.
                  ------------------------------------------------
                  Verily I say unto thee, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the Kingdom of Heaven before you do.
                  ------------------------------------------------
                  The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying. YEA, I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with LOVINGKINDESS have I DRAWN THEE.
                  Jeremiah 31:3

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi matthew94, nice to hear from you.

                    They did not die physically or spiritually that day, in a technical sense. They died both physically and spiritually in a more meaningful sense.
                    In scripture....where do you find one dying physically or spiritually in a meaningful sense?

                    How can we claim that they died that day physically?
                    I don't believe that we can with scripture.

                    But they were, indeed, cut off from the tree of life, and since God alone is immortal, they no longer were connected to what was necessary for gifted immortality. Because of this, that day began their physical death.
                    Being cut off from the tree of life does not cause a physical death....sin does. Being cut off from the tree of life is the same as being taken out of the Lambs Book Of Life. We are taken out of the Lambs Book of Life Spiritually not Physically, if you change anything in Gods written word. In the Physical we turn back to dust....in the Spirit we belong to God....and God can do what He wants if we don't obey.

                    How can we claim that they spiritually died that day?
                    Because God said in Genesis 2:17:

                    "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

                    Adam and Eve did not die on the day that they ate from the tree. God does not lie, and God said that they would die. So they had to die in someway. Well....if it was not physical....and we know that b/c Adam lived another 900+ years after the fact, it had to be Spiritually.

                    They still had contact with God.
                    Even satan has contact with God.....the book of Job proves that.

                    They still had contact with God. They still had a relationship with God (albeit damaged).
                    God is ever present. Anybody has contact with God. Anybody can have a relationship with God....for a time. Then when everything is going alright again...so does the relationship. God gets treated like this all the time through out the world.

                    They still had an interest in God.
                    I can take you to a jail and show you 100 people who are interested in God....why? b/c they are in trouble. But as soon as that trouble goes away....so does the interest.

                    I think rather than try to determine in what way they literally died on that "day," we should focus on the word "death."
                    The scripture does not say death in Genesis 2:17....it says die:

                    "Genesis 2:17, But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

                    We don't change words in scripture so that we can wrap our minds around it...so that it makes sense to our culture. Instead we look and study what the word meant that was used and come up with a answer.

                    The word die in Greek means apoleia...meaning, ruin or loss physical or Spiritual eternal. We take that meaning and go from there.

                    God Bless,

                    Dave
                    In Christ Love

                    BCF

                    2 Peter 1:20-21:

                    "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation. For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

                    Search and believe the Scripture, before you believe anything man tells you.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hey Dave

                      1. I'm not sure what your asking in your first quote. Are you asking where we find those specific words, or where we find the concept? I'm obviously talking about the concept. And I'd say Genesis 2.

                      2. I do believe we can say they died, that day, physically. If we understand 'die' in a different sense than a 1 moment event. And that surely is allowable in the definition. It's like when we use the term 'saved.' Most think it refers to the one moment transition (justification). It can mean that. But it can also speak of the entire process of God redeeming us (it has past, present & future application). Adam and Eve died that day, physically, in the sense that they began to die.

                      3. We die b/c we aren't connected to the source of eternal life. I won't argue about whether it's the lack of eating from the tree of life or sin that actually kills us. It's both/and, not either/or. If they would have stayed in the garden, they could have continually stayed alive in God. They didn't, so they couldn't.

                      4. You can't declare that God said they died spiritual in 2:17 and THEN claim that I am changing Scriptures around. Scripture doesn't make a point to define exactly what 'die' refers to there. It's open to interpretation.

                      You say they 'had to die in some way' but insist it must be a complete 'death'. I say they began to 'die' that very day in a holistic sense (both spiritually and physically). We're both interpreting the passage as best we can. At least one of us is slightly misunderstanding the intention.

                      5. You seem to have missed my point in regards to the idea that they were completely 'dead' spiritually. I wasn't saying they were OK with God. I was saying that the image of God was corrupted by the Fall, not eliminated. If you're overly encamped in western mindsets, you won't like that line of thinking. But I think it is biblically sound.

                      6. So I agree we take the meaning of die and go from there. But, apparently, you and I come to different conclusions about this.

                      In Christ,
                      matthew
                      The Matthew Never Knew
                      The Knew Kingdom

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BCF View Post
                        I can agree that it introduced physical death...yes, but Adam and Eve did not die a physical death in the Garden. In Genesis 3:7, I read this, which tells me that they did not die a physical death:

                        "And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves (aprons)"...(which in Hebrew means coverings).

                        What this tells me is that after they had eaten from the tree, they discovered sin...which was something that they did not know. So they covered up the sin. If they died a physical death as some say...they never would have seen what sin was in the first place. Like I said before. God said in Genesis 2:17, that if they would eat from the tree...they would die on the day that they ate of it. Well...they did die on the day that they ate of the tree. A Spiritual Death....not a Physical Death.

                        And yes...it not only introduced a Spiritual Death...but according to the writings of Moses... a Spiritual Death actually happened in the Garden. And your scripture was perfect to prove that point.

                        God Bless

                        Dave
                        it os also my personal belief that it was a sort of spiritual death

                        because before the sin man was unashamed and had perfect relationship with God

                        after he sins, he hides from God. His intimate relationship with God is marred and crooked now.

                        The only problem is that i dont think the bible explicitly states what type of death this was. obviously Adam died physically later on.

                        and of course a day to the Lord is a thousand years so there is also the issue of translating the word "day"

                        all i know is mankind is dead in some way

                        dead to righteousness, dead in tresspasses and sins, the wages of sin is death, thats why Jesus had to die for sin

                        proverbs 20:27 says the spirit of man is the lamp(some versions say candle) of the Lord. so can it be that every man has a spirit that is in a sense alive, but without God it is not lit?

                        this is very interesting. I really would like to know exactly what the nature of man is before and after salvation

                        in ezekiel God talks about taking out a stony heart and giving a heart of flesh. Is the stony heart a spiritually dead person? heart means the center of our being right?

                        i think heart and spirit are synonomous. so it would be like saying unsaved people have a cold spirit of stone. They have a spirit, but it is hardened to the things of God.


                        to me it is very important what the exact condition of man is because it effects our view of what exactly happens when we are "born again"

                        just the term born again relates to spiritual birth, so what is the condition of the spirit before it is born again? dead, or just cold?

                        really tricky one

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If one day to God is not 1000 years of our time then why is the "Day of the Lord" the 1000 year reign shown to us in Revelation 20?

                          I have to run some errands now, but there are a few thing above I would like to look into further so I will be back. Thanks for starting this thread Dave, it's proving to be a very interesting subject.
                          I am a Christian man in the Devil's land, spreading the gospel man to man.
                          Have you laid your burdens down?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by matthew94 View Post
                            They did not die physically or spiritually that day, in a technical sense. They died both physically and spiritually in a more meaningful sense.

                            How can we claim that they died that day physically? Certainly not literally. But they were, indeed, cut off from the tree of life, and since God alone is immortal, they no longer were connected to what was necessary for gifted immortality. Because of this, that day began their physical death.

                            How can we claim that they spiritually died that day? Not literally. They still had contact with God. They still had a relationship with God (albeit damaged). They still had an interest in God. They died spiritually in a more important sense, just like they died physically in a more important sense than literal. They were now disconnected, in the most important degree, from intimacy with God and each other.

                            I think rather than try to determine in what way they literally died on that "day," we should focus on the word "death." I interpret the verse to mean something more along the lines of "the day you eat it will surely produce death." God is saying that that specific act is what is responsible for death being introduced into mankind.

                            Just my 2 cents

                            this seems accurate to me. i think the death was a reference to them being cut off from immortality and life with perfect relationship with God.

                            both physically and spiritually

                            how can you be cut off from God and immortality and not be spiritually affected? hmm

                            its interesting that God says get them out lest they eat of the tree of life and live forever. In a sense death is actually a blessing from God, because we could have still lived forever in a fallen state by eating the tree of life lol sounds like a rpg video game or something (no disrespect to the Word)

                            what else i find interesting. There is a verse saying that the mind of the natural man cannot understand or submit to the things of God, yet God talked to Adam after he sinned. However, God also audibly talked to alot of people in the OT, thats how we got the 10 commandments. Also, when Jesus was baptised and the Father said, "this is my Son, in whom i am well pleased", i dont believe everyone was a believer in the audience.

                            So whether we were spiritually dead or not it seems that God can still communicate to us in a way that we can hear?

                            just a tad confusing

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BCF View Post
                              I can agree that it introduced physical death...yes, but Adam and Eve did not die a physical death in the Garden. In Genesis 3:7, I read this, which tells me that they did not die a physical death:

                              "And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves (aprons)"...(which in Hebrew means coverings).

                              What this tells me is that after they had eaten from the tree, they discovered sin...which was something that they did not know. So they covered up the sin. If they died a physical death as some say...they never would have seen what sin was in the first place. Like I said before. God said in Genesis 2:17, that if they would eat from the tree...they would die on the day that they ate of it. Well...they did die on the day that they ate of the tree. A Spiritual Death....not a Physical Death.

                              And yes...it not only introduced a Spiritual Death...but according to the writings of Moses... a Spiritual Death actually happened in the Garden. And your scripture was perfect to prove that point.

                              God Bless

                              Dave
                              Actually, their physical death 'process' would have begun while still in the garden.

                              The moment that God cursed creation; and eternal life was removed from them....their cells began to die...one by one...until finally they both died a physical and nature death...albeit some years after leaving the garden.

                              Comment

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