Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Trinity in OT

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Trinity in OT

    Some muslims asked me that if trinity is true then why moses and other OT prophets did not teach about trinity.So I want to discuss.How can I answer them?So please give me some verses from OT that support Holy trinity.
    Thanks
    Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

  • #2
    The Godhead is in the first Hebrew letter of the Aleph-Bet. It's also in the first line of Genesis 1:1. Send my your email in a PM, I'll send you a pdf about Messiah in Genesis (it would make for a really really long post).
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

    Comment


    • #3
      Aleph -

      There is tremendouos significance in the the character א
      This first Hebrew letter, representing one, is a silent letter, an Aleph. This letter is comprised of two other letters; vav and yod.

      The pictograph of a Yod is an open cupped hand. A pointer used to read Torah is called a 'Yad' - a hand used to point to Torah.

      The pictograph of Vav is a peg or a nail. Think about the message God is sending through the Alepf (remember Aleph-Tav is Alpha-Omega or beginning and the end. A Tav in ancient Hebrew looks like a crucifix.

      Also, Vav represents the number 6 in Hebrew. It wasn't lost on the Jewish sages that the number 6 also represented man, who was created on the 6th day.

      Gematria - The basic gematria for Aleph is one (echad) - obviously indicating the One and only God who is the Master of the Universe. If you add up the numerical value for all the parts of Aleph, (Yod+Yod+Vav), they add up to 28 - the same value for the Sacred Name YHVH, which indicates a link between God and the letter Aleph.

      In Messianic terms, Aleph is a picture of Yeshua's (Jesus) intercession. Aleph represents Yeshua haMashiach (Jesus the Christ) as our intercessor and Kohen Gadol (High Priest). The two Yod's represent outstreached arms of hands connecting man to God (as they were stretched out on the cross). The diagonal Vav (nail) represents His sacrifice on our behalf. And since Yeshua is the Aleph-Tav (beginning and the end), the letter Aleph represents His divinity, and the Vav - being diagonal - His humility.

      Aleph is a picture of the God-Man, as the One who is comprised of both the upper realm of heaven and the lower realm of the earth, connected by the humility of the human body. Aleph is a picture of the God-Man unity that is Jesus the Christ, "Who, being in the form of God - took upon Himself the form of a servant - as a man" (Phillipians 2:9-11).

      In Revealation 22:13, Yeshua referes to Himself as the Aleph and the Tav, and thereby told us directly that the Hebrew Aleph-Bet would provide revelation about Him.

      The structure of the Aleph is itself three-in-one. Just as there are three parts to Aleph, but Aleph is One (Echad), so there are three Persons to the Godhead, yet God is absolutely One. If you take the word "Aleph", you'll find the Genatria is "111" (Apeph = 1, Lamed = 30, Pey = 80).

      An interesting side note - "Pey" means "house".

      This is what Yeshua meant by bringing Torah to fullness - the unbelieving Jews should have recognised all these things, but their unbelief was a veil.

      Joh 5:46"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
      Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by starlight777 View Post
        Some muslims asked me that if trinity is true then why moses and other OT prophets did not teach about trinity.So I want to discuss.How can I answer them?So please give me some verses from OT that support Holy trinity.
        Thanks
        This is a logical fallacy in itself. Just because something is not mentioned does not mean it isn't believed in.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Romber View Post
          This is a logical fallacy in itself. Just because something is not mentioned does not mean it isn't believed in.
          It is mentioned. You just have to dig a little.
          Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

          Comment


          • #6
            Even if it is mentioned (underneath the surface), it is still generally true that many and/or most Jews probably had no real concept of the Trinity prior to the 1st century.

            Rather than trying to point out possible references to the Trinity in the Old Testament, I would be more inclined to answer the question in a straight-forward manner. God reveals Himself to us over a process of time. His fullest revelation wasn't until after thousands of years of human history, when He revealed Himself in Christ. As to WHY God reveals Himself as a process (instead of all at once), I suppose that is His perogative. I'd guess that He knows that we are incapable of handling very much at once. We learn in process, over time.

            Of course, once something has been revealed (like the Trinity was made clearer in the 1st century), it is often possible to look back at prior history and see things (like the Old Testament) in a fresh sense. So much so that we wonder (and 1st century Jewish-Christians may have wondered), how did we miss that?!?
            The Matthew Never Knew
            The Knew Kingdom

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by matthew94 View Post
              Even if it is mentioned (underneath the surface), it is still generally true that many and/or most Jews probably had no real concept of the Trinity prior to the 1st century.

              Rather than trying to point out possible references to the Trinity in the Old Testament, I would be more inclined to answer the question in a straight-forward manner. God reveals Himself to us over a process of time. His fullest revelation wasn't until after thousands of years of human history, when He revealed Himself in Christ. As to WHY God reveals Himself as a process (instead of all at once), I suppose that is His perogative. I'd guess that He knows that we are incapable of handling very much at once. We learn in process, over time.

              Of course, once something has been revealed (like the Trinity was made clearer in the 1st century), it is often possible to look back at prior history and see things (like the Old Testament) in a fresh sense. So much so that we wonder (and 1st century Jewish-Christians may have wondered), how did we miss that?!?
              This is true. Faith and revelation always come before 'proof.' It's the relationship with God that brings these 'hidden' things to life. Without faith and the indwelt Holy Spirit, there is no flavor.

              For example the rabbinical interpretation of Aleph is as follows:

              The upper Yod (the open hand) represents the hidden aspect of YHVH, and the lower Yod represents the revelation of YHVH to mankind. The Vav (nail) connects the two realms. The Vav is diagonal becaue it represents the humbled in the face of God's mystery and His revelation.

              When I read that, I knew it was missing a most important element.

              Compare with the fulfilled revelation:

              Aleph is a picture of Yeshua's (Jesus) intercession. Aleph represents Yeshua haMashiach as our intercessor and High Priest. The two Yod's represent outstreached arms of hands connecting man to God (as they were stretched out on the cross). The diagonal Vav (nail) represents His sacrifice on our behalf. And since Yeshua is the Aleph-Tav (beginning and the end), the letter Aleph represents His divinity, and the Vav - being diagonal - His humility.
              Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

              Comment


              • #8
                Genesis gives the reader the first glimpse at the Trinity.. look at this verse....
                --------------------------------------------------------------------
                And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

                Genesis 1:26
                -------------------------------------------------------------------
                Interesting Piece of Scripture that was God breathed and Penned by those who were under the influence of the Holy Ghost...
                Many appear Righteous and Just because they say 'yes' to Jesus Christ , yet they don't do His Will.
                ------------------------------------------------
                Verily I say unto thee, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the Kingdom of Heaven before you do.
                ------------------------------------------------
                The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying. YEA, I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with LOVINGKINDESS have I DRAWN THEE.
                Jeremiah 31:3

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by matthew94 View Post
                  Even if it is mentioned (underneath the surface), it is still generally true that many and/or most Jews probably had no real concept of the Trinity prior to the 1st century.

                  Rather than trying to point out possible references to the Trinity in the Old Testament, I would be more inclined to answer the question in a straight-forward manner. God reveals Himself to us over a process of time. His fullest revelation wasn't until after thousands of years of human history, when He revealed Himself in Christ. As to WHY God reveals Himself as a process (instead of all at once), I suppose that is His perogative. I'd guess that He knows that we are incapable of handling very much at once. We learn in process, over time.

                  Of course, once something has been revealed (like the Trinity was made clearer in the 1st century), it is often possible to look back at prior history and see things (like the Old Testament) in a fresh sense. So much so that we wonder (and 1st century Jewish-Christians may have wondered), how did we miss that?!?
                  I understand that mindset, it was the same one I used to use. Trouble is, it won't change how THEY view scripture. Let me give you an example...a JW comes to your house and using his bible, he tears apart what you believe. You respond by quoting your KJV or your NIV, whatever you use, and round and round you go. When you both grow weary, he leaves and nothing has been gained by him or you. BUT...you instead take HIS bible and go to Revelation 1:8 and ask who the First and Last is, to which he says "Jehovah." You then go to 1:17-18 and show him that the "First and Last" is he who lived but was dead...and is now alive forevermore. You then ask, "when did Jehovah die." For the first time in his JW life, his belief has been challenged and that BY his own bible. Now HE asks the question and now YOU have the chance to answer. But you have to break through first.

                  Talking to a Muslim from a NT perspective...even though WE understand you can't have a NT without the OT...will gain no traction. But if you can use a little of their language and some OT passages to make your point...whatever it is, you have a better chance to break through.

                  Rarely will an arguement over scripture produce fruit. One's paradigm has to be altered, the way they see scripture altered, in order to gain in regards to sharing knowledge.

                  Peace.
                  Ken

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There is no mention of the trinity in the OT. There is mention of a unity, but no specific mention of 3.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by kenrank View Post
                      I understand that mindset, it was the same one I used to use. Trouble is, it won't change how THEY view scripture. Let me give you an example...a JW comes to your house and using his bible, he tears apart what you believe. You respond by quoting your KJV or your NIV, whatever you use, and round and round you go. When you both grow weary, he leaves and nothing has been gained by him or you. BUT...you instead take HIS bible and go to Revelation 1:8 and ask who the First and Last is, to which he says "Jehovah." You then go to 1:17-18 and show him that the "First and Last" is he who lived but was dead...and is now alive forevermore. You then ask, "when did Jehovah die." For the first time in his JW life, his belief has been challenged and that BY his own bible. Now HE asks the question and now YOU have the chance to answer. But you have to break through first.

                      Talking to a Muslim from a NT perspective...even though WE understand you can't have a NT without the OT...will gain no traction. But if you can use a little of their language and some OT passages to make your point...whatever it is, you have a better chance to break through.

                      Rarely will an arguement over scripture produce fruit. One's paradigm has to be altered, the way they see scripture altered, in order to gain in regards to sharing knowledge.

                      Peace.
                      Ken
                      That's a good point. I'm not against using the OT to get the conversation started. It's probably even necessary in contexts like the one you described. I think we'd both agree that, ultimately, the conversation has to get to Christ and how He changes everything, and helps us to understand truth, and brings truth to light.

                      In Christ,
                      matthew
                      The Matthew Never Knew
                      The Knew Kingdom

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Emanate View Post
                        There is no mention of the trinity in the OT. There is mention of a unity, but no specific mention of 3.
                        There is no verse the specifically spells out all three together as being God; and uses words like 'trinity' or 'triune' to name them.

                        However, there are verses in the O.T. that specifically tell us the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God.

                        Knowing how much that the O.T. tells us God is one; and there is no other God except Him; it is pretty simply to see how the faithful can find the trinity in the OT; especially in the fuller light as given in the N.T.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                          There is no verse the specifically spells out all three together as being God; and uses words like 'trinity' or 'triune' to name them.

                          However, there are verses in the O.T. that specifically tell us the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God.

                          Knowing how much that the O.T. tells us God is one; and there is no other God except Him; it is pretty simply to see how the faithful can find the trinity in the OT; especially in the fuller light as given in the N.T.
                          This is all true. But there are some issues here.

                          God says He is "Echad", (Hebrew for one). God says when a couple get married, they are "echad" (Gen 2:24). So here you have two who become one, according to God anyway, so this type of plurality of "echad" is no stranger to a reader of the Tenach.

                          Also, we have the tetragammon, Elohim (literally "Gods"). This information isn't lost on Jewish sages and modern rabbi's, they just tend to ignore the implications - for example usually when Isaiah 53 is brought up to an orthodox rabbi, he won't discuss it. He'll simply either say "we don't believe in Jesus, so it doesn't matter" and end it right there or they will take the anti-missionary tact and tell you the character in Isaiah 53 is the nation of Israel.

                          It's all there. It's just a matter of inquiring of the LORD and learning the depth of the language(s) He choose to get His word out.
                          Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by matthew94 View Post
                            That's a good point. I'm not against using the OT to get the conversation started. It's probably even necessary in contexts like the one you described. I think we'd both agree that, ultimately, the conversation has to get to Christ and how He changes everything, and helps us to understand truth, and brings truth to light.

                            In Christ,
                            matthew
                            The weird thing is Matthew...and I know this will sound strange, Messiah might be the end of the conversation. In other words, once you help that person to see scripture through eyes OTHER than their own, THEN you have the opportunity to chat Messiah with them.

                            Look at the Law dead/ Law not dead threads. (This is just an example we can all relate to because we see it on these boards) The Law is dead folks see scripture through a dispensationalist pair of eyes, the Law is alive folks see it through a God never changes point of view. Who is right isn't my point...but, these two groups can argue scripture until they are blue in the face. Unless and until one stops long enough to see the point through the other person's perspective, arguing scripture is all they will EVER do. No headway will be made.

                            That is the same principle when talking to a JW, an Islamic, or ANY group that doesn't view scripture as you do. Real evangelizing begins when we understand this and then work on a person by person basis. One size doesn't fit all...know what I mean?

                            Peace.
                            Ken

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by kenrank View Post
                              The weird thing is Matthew...and I know this will sound strange, Messiah might be the end of the conversation. In other words, once you help that person to see scripture through eyes OTHER than their own, THEN you have the opportunity to chat Messiah with them.

                              Look at the Law dead/ Law not dead threads. (This is just an example we can all relate to because we see it on these boards) The Law is dead folks see scripture through a dispensationalist pair of eyes, the Law is alive folks see it through a God never changes point of view. Who is right isn't my point...but, these two groups can argue scripture until they are blue in the face. Unless and until one stops long enough to see the point through the other person's perspective, arguing scripture is all they will EVER do. No headway will be made.

                              That is the same principle when talking to a JW, an Islamic, or ANY group that doesn't view scripture as you do. Real evangelizing begins when we understand this and then work on a person by person basis. One size doesn't fit all...know what I mean?

                              Peace.
                              Ken
                              It's a miracle of God for anyone to come to the Lord. Using the OT to witness to a Jew or the JW bible to witness to the JW does little without the help of the Lord. More important than speaking to him from his religious point of view, is to hear God and to prophesy over him what the Lord says. Then he will say "God is here" because his heart has been revealed. The word of the Lord is sharp and can pierce even the hardest soul.

                              And oh, there are those of us that believe we are dead to the law that use the idea that God never changes too to make the point about living by the letter. But generally, we don't stay around long enough in those threads for the very point you make here.

                              Grace and peace,

                              Mark
                              Matt 9:13
                              13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                              NASU

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X