Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The bible and wine/strong drink

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by uric3 View Post
    I'll state I don't think a Christian should drink at all due to 1st Peter 4:3 which states

    "For the time past may suffice to have wrought the desire of the Gentiles, and to have walked in lasciviousness, lusts, winebibbings, revellings, carousings, and abominable idolatries: (ASV)"

    Notice the term winebibbing which is defined by yourdictionary as "wine drinker" another translation states "social drinking" instead of winebibbing, or banquetings... which seems to point to having a few with the buddies is wrong...

    I'm still studying on the winebibbing and social drink really need to study the greek on this verse... so I don't feel I have a firm foundation to stay its a sin to drink period... but I would advise agasist it.
    In the Greek the term is οἰνοφλυγία and it means drunkenness. It doesn't mean social drinking or just drinking alcohol.
    "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

    -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by reformedct View Post
      paul actually told timothy to drink some wine for medicinal use
      He said it was good for the stomach (digestion??) This advice actually works.

      Also, when Yeshua turned the water into wine, note what the guests said - "the host serves the best wine last" - notwwithstanding the messianic significance to this - usually the best wine was served first and the equivalent of ripple served last. Why? I don't think it takes any stretch of imagination to figure that out.
      Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
        In the Greek the term is οἰνοφλυγία and it means drunkenness. It doesn't mean social drinking or just drinking alcohol.
        Interesting I wonder how the ASV and ESV can put winbbiber or social drinking... and the KJV banquetings... how many different words can be derived from one... and all mean different things! LOL

        So is it set in stone that the only way to define οἰνοφλυγία is drunkness? I find that a bit questionable since various translations use other terms... I guess I'll have to dig deeper thanks for helping me get started.
        Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" We should always be willing to do God's bidding, seek ye first the kingdom of God.

        I use Linux because I don't like Windows

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by keck553 View Post
          He said it was good for the stomach (digestion??) This advice actually works.

          Also, when Yeshua turned the water into wine, note what the guests said - "the host serves the best wine last" - notwwithstanding the messianic significance to this - usually the best wine was served first and the equivalent of ripple served last. Why? I don't think it takes any stretch of imagination to figure that out.
          Interesting point... I read something the other day about that passage that noted Christ had to have created non-alcoholic wine. I'll have to find it and post it later... intresting read.
          Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" We should always be willing to do God's bidding, seek ye first the kingdom of God.

          I use Linux because I don't like Windows

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by uric3 View Post
            Interesting I wonder how the ASV and ESV can put winbbiber or social drinking... and the KJV banquetings... how many different words can be derived from one... and all mean different things! LOL

            So is it set in stone that the only way to define οἰνοφλυγία is drunkness? I find that a bit questionable since various translations use other terms... I guess I'll have to dig deeper thanks for helping me get started.
            Drunkenness is the only definition that the Greek Lexicon gives. In the King James Version it is translated as "excess of wine", the New King James translates as "drunkenness", the NASB translates as "drunkenness", the NIV translates as "drunkenness".

            Most all translations except the ones you have mentioned agree with the Greek Lexicon definition that it means drunkenness.
            "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

            -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

            Comment


            • #21
              I drink and am not ashamed

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by cindylou View Post
                I drink and am not ashamed
                You have that freedom as long as self-control is maintained and drunkenness isn't taking place. As long as we can do these sort of things in moderation there shouldn't be a problem. However, many folks have difficulty only doing things in moderation. Additionally, some have difficulty judging what is moderation and what isn't. Therefore, much wisdom should be taken when taking part in such a thing. Whatever we do it should all be done unto the Lord.
                "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

                Comment


                • #23
                  When we all raise a glass to our Lord and his One Church, on bible forums tomorrow night - i allow you to have whatever drink you wish. Please post in the Anything Goes forum on my 'drinks party' topic, if you can join us, what time it will be where you are and what drink you'll be having. SofTy.
                  1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos: and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

                  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptised in the name of Paul?

                  KJV

                  May the power of the Spirit of our God unite us. SofTy.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                    ecclesiastes 9:7 Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do. (ESV)

                    also for those who think the wine in the bible is non-alcoholic

                    how could non-alcoholic wine and strong drink cause someone to be a mocker and a brawler? Last time i drank some welchs grape juice i was quite fine haha

                    but seriously, what are the biblical principles of alcoholic drink?
                    I agree that wine of the bible could not be non-alcoholic, let us not forget this passage:

                    (Genesis 19:30-36)
                    30 Then Lot went up out of Zoar and dwelt in the mountains, and his two daughters were with him; for he was afraid to dwell in Zoar. And he and his two daughters dwelt in a cave. 31 Now the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man on the earth to come in to us as is the custom of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father.” 33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.
                    34 It happened on the next day that the firstborn said to the younger, “Indeed I lay with my father last night; let us make him drink wine tonight also, and you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father.” 35 Then they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.
                    36 Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father.

                    I don't think Lot would have done this act in a sober state of mind!

                    We are the ones that corrupt the use of alcohol, wine, beer, strong drink, hence the reason there is such a big problem of alcoholism that has destroyed so many lives. Its important to understand how we as christians should control our alcohol drinking habits and not let it become a sin, just like every thing else we do in this sinful-fallen world.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by uric3 View Post
                      Interesting point... I read something the other day about that passage that noted Christ had to have created non-alcoholic wine. I'll have to find it and post it later... intresting read.

                      Why would he create a non-alcoholic wine. That would be grape juice and why would you save the best grape juice for last. Its not like they had Welch's and Wal-Marts.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by mikebr View Post
                        Why would he create a non-alcoholic wine. That would be grape juice and why would you save the best grape juice for last. Its not like they had Welch's and Wal-Marts.
                        This was the article I was referring to earlier...
                        If Jesus made wine, is it okay for us to drink it?

                        Assumptions


                        We commonly assume at least three things when reading this passage in John.
                        • The word “wine” always means an intoxicating beverage in the Bible.
                        • The phrase “good wine” implies a more potent wine with higher alcohol content.
                        • The phrase “well drunk” means the guest were intoxicated.

                        If these assumptions are correct consider what the result is. When the supply of alcohol ran out at the wedding, Jesus supplied an even more potent supply to a group of people who were already drunk!


                        1. Drunkenness is sinful. (Romans 13:13, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21)
                        2. Jesus supplied more potent alcohol to wedding guests who were already intoxicated. (John 2:1-10)
                        3. Therefore Jesus sinned by contributing to their drunkenness. (Habakkuk 2:15, 1 Timothy 5:22)



                        Did Jesus ever sin?


                        A closer look at the assumptions

                        • The word “wine” always means an intoxicating beverage in the Bible.
                          • Wine was a general word referring to grape juice regardless of whether it was fermented or not.
                            • External
                              • Anecreon who wrote in 500 BC said, “Only males tread the grapes setting free the wine”.
                              • Cato (236 – 149 BC) referred to “hanging wine” (grape clusters).
                              • Columella (4 – 70 AD) spoke of “unintoxicating wine”.
                              • Ovid (43 BC – 18 AD) said, “And scarce can the grapes contain the wine they have within”.
                              • Ibycus (6th Century BC) stated, “And newborn clusters teem with wine, beneath the shadowy foliage of the vine”.
                            • Internal
                              • …tread out wine in the presses... Isaiah 16:10
                              • ...new wine is found in the cluster... Isaiah 65:8
                              • …vats shall overflow with new wine... Joel 2:24, Proverbs 3:10
                              • ...the vine said to them, “Should I cease my new wine...” Judges 9:13



                        • The phrase “good wine” implies wine with higher alcohol content.
                          • “Good” may have referred to the flavor, color, purity or other qualities of the beverage.
                          • Pliny (23 – 73 AD) stated, “Wines are most beneficial when all their potency has been overcome by the strainer”. (Note: In biblical times, one method of preserving grape juice in an unfermented state was to strain out the pulp which contained gluten. Gluten promoted the fermentation process.)
                          • Pliny is also attributed to say that good wine was destitute of spirit.
                          • Other ancient writers (Pliny, Plutarch, Horace) mention that the best wine was that which was harmless or innocent.

                        • The phrase “well drunk” means the guest were intoxicated.
                          • Of the 22 bible translations listed below, none of them actually says the wedding guests were drunk. At most it indicates that they had had a lot to drink.


                        1. “drunk freely” (NASB)
                        2. “had their fill” (The Message)
                        3. “drunk freely” (Amplified Bible)
                        4. “had a lot to drink” (New Living Translation)
                        5. “well drunk” (KJV)
                        6. “drunk freely” (ESV)
                        7. “had plenty” (CEV)
                        8. “well drunk” (NKJV)
                        9. “been drinking awhile” (NCV)
                        10. “drunk well” (21st Century KJV)
                        11. “too much to drink“ (NIV)
                        12. “drunk freely” (ASV)
                        13. “drunk freely” (YLT)
                        14. “well drunk” (Darby)
                        15. “drunk freely” (Holman Christian Standard)
                        16. “too much to drink” (New International Reader's Version)
                        17. “be full-filled” (Wycliffe New Testament)
                        18. “had all they want” (Worldwide English)
                        19. “drunk freely” (LITV)
                        20. “drunk well” (MKJV)
                        21. “drunk freely” (RV)
                        22. “drinking awhile” (New American Bible)

                          • The text states that the general practice of the bridegrooms in those days was to serve the inferior wine after everyone had been drinking a while. It is possible that “well drunk” may refer to the amount that had been consumed rather than the effects of the beverage.

                        Conclusion

                        We have to ask ourselves, “Which interpretation is more consistent with what we know about the character of Jesus and what the Bible teaches about drunkenness?”. Consider this...
                        1. Jesus never sinned. (Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:21-22)
                        2. Supplying alcohol for others to drink would constitute sharing in their sins (1 Timothy 5:22)
                        3. Therefore the wine that Jesus made was not alcoholic.
                        Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" We should always be willing to do God's bidding, seek ye first the kingdom of God.

                        I use Linux because I don't like Windows

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by uric3 View Post
                          This was the article I was referring to earlier...
                          If Jesus made wine, is it okay for us to drink it?

                          Assumptions


                          We commonly assume at least three things when reading this passage in John.
                          • The word “wine” always means an intoxicating beverage in the Bible.
                          • The phrase “good wine” implies a more potent wine with higher alcohol content.
                          • The phrase “well drunk” means the guest were intoxicated.

                          If these assumptions are correct consider what the result is. When the supply of alcohol ran out at the wedding, Jesus supplied an even more potent supply to a group of people who were already drunk!


                          1. Drunkenness is sinful. (Romans 13:13, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21)
                          2. Jesus supplied more potent alcohol to wedding guests who were already intoxicated. (John 2:1-10)
                          3. Therefore Jesus sinned by contributing to their drunkenness. (Habakkuk 2:15, 1 Timothy 5:22)



                          Did Jesus ever sin?


                          A closer look at the assumptions

                          • The word “wine” always means an intoxicating beverage in the Bible.
                            • Wine was a general word referring to grape juice regardless of whether it was fermented or not.
                              • External
                                • Anecreon who wrote in 500 BC said, “Only males tread the grapes setting free the wine”.
                                • Cato (236 – 149 BC) referred to “hanging wine” (grape clusters).
                                • Columella (4 – 70 AD) spoke of “unintoxicating wine”.
                                • Ovid (43 BC – 18 AD) said, “And scarce can the grapes contain the wine they have within”.
                                • Ibycus (6th Century BC) stated, “And newborn clusters teem with wine, beneath the shadowy foliage of the vine”.

                              • Internal
                                • …tread out wine in the presses... Isaiah 16:10
                                • ...new wine is found in the cluster... Isaiah 65:8
                                • …vats shall overflow with new wine... Joel 2:24, Proverbs 3:10
                                • ...the vine said to them, “Should I cease my new wine...” Judges 9:13



                          • The phrase “good wine” implies wine with higher alcohol content.
                            • “Good” may have referred to the flavor, color, purity or other qualities of the beverage.
                            • Pliny (23 – 73 AD) stated, “Wines are most beneficial when all their potency has been overcome by the strainer”. (Note: In biblical times, one method of preserving grape juice in an unfermented state was to strain out the pulp which contained gluten. Gluten promoted the fermentation process.)
                            • Pliny is also attributed to say that good wine was destitute of spirit.
                            • Other ancient writers (Pliny, Plutarch, Horace) mention that the best wine was that which was harmless or innocent.

                          • The phrase “well drunk” means the guest were intoxicated.
                            • Of the 22 bible translations listed below, none of them actually says the wedding guests were drunk. At most it indicates that they had had a lot to drink.


                          1. “drunk freely” (NASB)
                          2. “had their fill” (The Message)
                          3. “drunk freely” (Amplified Bible)
                          4. “had a lot to drink” (New Living Translation)
                          5. “well drunk” (KJV)
                          6. “drunk freely” (ESV)
                          7. “had plenty” (CEV)
                          8. “well drunk” (NKJV)
                          9. “been drinking awhile” (NCV)
                          10. “drunk well” (21st Century KJV)
                          11. “too much to drink“ (NIV)
                          12. “drunk freely” (ASV)
                          13. “drunk freely” (YLT)
                          14. “well drunk” (Darby)
                          15. “drunk freely” (Holman Christian Standard)
                          16. “too much to drink” (New International Reader's Version)
                          17. “be full-filled” (Wycliffe New Testament)
                          18. “had all they want” (Worldwide English)
                          19. “drunk freely” (LITV)
                          20. “drunk well” (MKJV)
                          21. “drunk freely” (RV)
                          22. “drinking awhile” (New American Bible)

                            • The text states that the general practice of the bridegrooms in those days was to serve the inferior wine after everyone had been drinking a while. It is possible that “well drunk” may refer to the amount that had been consumed rather than the effects of the beverage.


                          Conclusion

                          We have to ask ourselves, “Which interpretation is more consistent with what we know about the character of Jesus and what the Bible teaches about drunkenness?”. Consider this...
                          1. Jesus never sinned. (Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:21-22)
                          2. Supplying alcohol for others to drink would constitute sharing in their sins (1 Timothy 5:22)
                          3. Therefore the wine that Jesus made was not alcoholic.

                          the assumption i see in this article is that drinking wine automatically means drunkenness. the bible says wine is a mocker and strong drink a brawler. The bible does speak of alcoholic wine. Wine is very common among Jews today as it always has been.

                          Jesus did not sin by giving wine. If anybody got drunk it was because of their own sin. i also agree that good wine does not always mean stronger in alcoholic content, but as i said, Jesus did not sin by supplying alcoholic wine. It is possible to drink wine responsibly and not be drunk

                          God gave sex too but people sin sexually. Did God sin by giving them sex? this is one of those arguments that goes like this:


                          1.item A can be abused

                          2. whoever would supply item A is sinning because they are helping people abuse item A

                          using and abusing is two different things. A steak knife can be used to eat food or stab someone in the throat. the knife is not bad although potentially dangerous. it is the person who abuses the intended use who has sinned

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I think, in light of of Paul's comments to Timothy, we are forced to accept that, Biblically, there are at least some situations when drinking alcohol is acceptable.

                            "No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments." (1 Timothy 5:23.)

                            This is practical advice, because alcohol would kill a bacterial infection in the stomach. (Grape juice wouldn't.)
                            "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -Mahatma Gandhi

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by uric3 View Post
                              This was the article I was referring to earlier...
                              If Jesus made wine, is it okay for us to drink it?

                              Assumptions


                              We commonly assume at least three things when reading this passage in John.
                              • The word “wine” always means an intoxicating beverage in the Bible.
                              • The phrase “good wine” implies a more potent wine with higher alcohol content.
                              • The phrase “well drunk” means the guest were intoxicated.
                              If these assumptions are correct consider what the result is. When the supply of alcohol ran out at the wedding, Jesus supplied an even more potent supply to a group of people who were already drunk!


                              1. Drunkenness is sinful. (Romans 13:13, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21)
                              2. Jesus supplied more potent alcohol to wedding guests who were already intoxicated. (John 2:1-10)
                              3. Therefore Jesus sinned by contributing to their drunkenness. (Habakkuk 2:15, 1 Timothy 5:22)

                              Did Jesus ever sin?


                              A closer look at the assumptions

                              • The word “wine” always means an intoxicating beverage in the Bible.

                                • Wine was a general word referring to grape juice regardless of whether it was fermented or not.

                                  • External
                                    • Anecreon who wrote in 500 BC said, “Only males tread the grapes setting free the wine”.
                                    • Cato (236 – 149 BC) referred to “hanging wine” (grape clusters).
                                    • Columella (4 – 70 AD) spoke of “unintoxicating wine”.
                                    • Ovid (43 BC – 18 AD) said, “And scarce can the grapes contain the wine they have within”.
                                    • Ibycus (6th Century BC) stated, “And newborn clusters teem with wine, beneath the shadowy foliage of the vine”.
                                  • Internal

                                    • …tread out wine in the presses... Isaiah 16:10
                              • ...new wine is found in the cluster... Isaiah 65:8
                              • …vats shall overflow with new wine... Joel 2:24, Proverbs 3:10
                              • ...the vine said to them, “Should I cease my new wine...” Judges 9:13
                              The phrase “good wine” implies wine with higher alcohol content.
                              • “Good” may have referred to the flavor, color, purity or other qualities of the beverage.
                              Pliny (23 – 73 AD) stated, “Wines are most beneficial when all their potency has been overcome by the strainer”. (Note: In biblical times, one method of preserving grape juice in an unfermented state was to strain out the pulp which contained gluten. Gluten promoted the fermentation process.)
                              Pliny is also attributed to say that good wine was destitute of spirit.
                              Other ancient writers (Pliny, Plutarch, Horace) mention that the best wine was that which was harmless or innocent.

                              The phrase “well drunk” means the guest were intoxicated.
                              • Of the 22 bible translations listed below, none of them actually says the wedding guests were drunk. At most it indicates that they had had a lot to drink.
                              1. “drunk freely” (NASB)
                              2. “had their fill” (The Message)
                              3. “drunk freely” (Amplified Bible)
                              4. “had a lot to drink” (New Living Translation)
                              5. “well drunk” (KJV)
                              6. “drunk freely” (ESV)
                              7. “had plenty” (CEV)
                              8. “well drunk” (NKJV)
                              9. “been drinking awhile” (NCV)
                              10. “drunk well” (21st Century KJV)
                              11. “too much to drink“ (NIV)
                              12. “drunk freely” (ASV)
                              13. “drunk freely” (YLT)
                              14. “well drunk” (Darby)
                              15. “drunk freely” (Holman Christian Standard)
                              16. “too much to drink” (New International Reader's Version)
                              17. “be full-filled” (Wycliffe New Testament)
                              18. “had all they want” (Worldwide English)
                              19. “drunk freely” (LITV)
                              20. “drunk well” (MKJV)
                              21. “drunk freely” (RV)
                              22. “drinking awhile” (New American Bible)
                                • The text states that the general practice of the bridegrooms in those days was to serve the inferior wine after everyone had been drinking a while. It is possible that “well drunk” may refer to the amount that had been consumed rather than the effects of the beverage.
                              Conclusion

                              We have to ask ourselves, “Which interpretation is more consistent with what we know about the character of Jesus and what the Bible teaches about drunkenness?”. Consider this...
                              1. Jesus never sinned. (Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:21-22)
                              2. Supplying alcohol for others to drink would constitute sharing in their sins (1 Timothy 5:22)
                              3. Therefore the wine that Jesus made was not alcoholic.
                              You are suggesting that no one at the party had self control and they got drunk because it was Jesus' fault?

                              It was alcoholic, without a doubt.

                              Christianity did not exist at the time of Jesus, therefore alcohol constumption did not carry the stigma.

                              There are commands in the OT to buy strong drink and feast (function of the tithe).

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                1. Jesus never sinned. (Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:21-22)
                                2. Supplying alcohol for others to drink would constitute sharing in their sins (1 Timothy 5:22)
                                3. Therefore the wine that Jesus made was not alcoholic.


                                Last time I checked, God created grapes and all good food. I suppose that he participated in the sin of all gluttons since he created and gave to man food.

                                Just to state the obvious, creating wine and causing someone to get drunk are entirely different things.
                                Matt 9:13
                                13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                                NASU

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X