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  • #61
    Originally posted by HisLeast View Post
    If there's one thing I've learned over the years, is that it doesn't matter a lick what the Bible actually says. Either nobody really knows, or people are content with their own interpretation. Nothing will change that save the final judgment when it will all be imminently clear to us.
    God does teach us though. He took the disciples off on his own and taught them. And he told us that the Holy Spirit would teach us. We can know many things even though we see through a glass darkly.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    • #62
      I let the Holy Spirit be my guide.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
        God does teach us though. He took the disciples off on his own and taught them. And he told us that the Holy Spirit would teach us. We can know many things even though we see through a glass darkly.
        Same problem in more soothing language. Which group's teachings does one believe when both claim to have been taught by the holy spirit and each belief is mutually exclusive?

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        • #64
          Originally posted by HisLeast View Post
          Same problem in more soothing language. Which group's teachings does one believe when both claim to have been taught by the holy spirit and each belief is mutually exclusive?
          You can know. Just believe what the bible says and take God at his word. The things you don't understand, just believe them anyway.

          1 John 1:4

          4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
          KJV

          and

          1 John 2:20-21

          20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

          21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
          KJV
          Matt 9:13
          13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
          NASU

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
            You can know. Just believe what the bible says and take God at his word. The things you don't understand, just believe them anyway.
            Well, as far as I know thats what I've tried to do these past years. But here's the problem: "God at his word".

            So what's His word on alcohol?

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            • #66
              Excuse me while I ramble off my personal prejudices against drinking fermented beverages.

              The key word, however, is 'fermented'. The drinking of wine, per se, is not wrong...unless it has become intoxicating.
              To stupefy or excite, as by the action of a chemical substance such as alcohol. 2. To stimulate or excite: "a man whom life intoxicates, who has no need of wine" (Ana´s Nin). 3. To poison. --intr. To cause stupefaction, stimulation, or excitement by or as if by use of a chemical substance: "The notion of Holy War is showing that it has not yet lost all its power to intoxicate and to inflame" (Conor Cruise O'Brien). [Middle English, to poison, (American Heritage Dictionary)

              The Bible encourages the drinking of the fruit of the vine (wine) unless it has become fermented:

              29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

              30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

              31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. Proverbs 23:29-31.


              When wine degenerates past its pure state it is no longer looked upon as the 'fruit of the vine' but a corruption that causes intoxication to one degree or another.

              I am not against all wine drinking. At Christmas, my family enjoyed an Italian spumante wine (non-alcoholic) and it's taste was delicious. But we won't place a stumbling block in front of our Christian brothers and sisters by imbibing in a fermented beverage. It would be horrible if we had invited (unknowlingly) an ex-drunkard to our table and placed a drink in front of him, the taste of which that would tempt him or inflame his flesh to return to the life of sin and drunkeness.

              By definition, to drink fermented beverages is to partake of something intoxicating (poisonous). It is the poisonous effect of such drinks that causes men to make fools of themselves or even bring shame to themselves.

              The Lord Jesus must be honored in all things.


              Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!
              Last edited by The Parson; Dec 30th 2008, 03:22 AM. Reason: Posting image linked to a commerical site

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Yankee Candle View Post
                Excuse me while I ramble off my personal prejudices against drinking fermented beverages.

                The key word, however, is 'fermented'. The drinking of wine, per se, is not wrong...unless it has become intoxicating.
                To stupefy or excite, as by the action of a chemical substance such as alcohol. 2. To stimulate or excite: "a man whom life intoxicates, who has no need of wine" (Ana´s Nin). 3. To poison. --intr. To cause stupefaction, stimulation, or excitement by or as if by use of a chemical substance: "The notion of Holy War is showing that it has not yet lost all its power to intoxicate and to inflame" (Conor Cruise O'Brien). [Middle English, to poison, (American Heritage Dictionary)

                The Bible encourages the drinking of the fruit of the vine (wine) unless it has become fermented:

                29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

                30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

                31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. Proverbs 23:29-31.


                When wine degenerates past its pure state it is no longer looked upon as the 'fruit of the vine' but a corruption that causes intoxication to one degree or another.

                I am not against all wine drinking. At Christmas, my family enjoyed an Italian spumante wine (non-alcoholic) and it's taste was delicious. But we won't place a stumbling block in front of our Christian brothers and sisters by imbibing in a fermented beverage. It would be horrible if we had invited (unknowlingly) an ex-drunkard to our table and placed a drink in front of him, the taste of which that would tempt him or inflame his flesh to return to the life of sin and drunkeness.

                By definition, to drink fermented beverages is to partake of something intoxicating (poisonous). It is the poisonous effect of such drinks that causes men to make fools of themselves or even bring shame to themselves.

                The Lord Jesus must be honored in all things.


                Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

                ok thats fine we can argue about the state of "wine", but what about when God told the His people to buy wine or strong drink and drink it before Him??

                dont tell me you also think strong drink is also non-alcoholic???? the bible clearly says wine is a mocker, and strong drink a brawler. i do not see how strong drink was non-alcoholic, but im sure there is some far out explanation for this too

                and why do Jews still drink alcoholic wine to this day?

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                • #68
                  OK, we've already had one thread involving alcoholic consumption closed tonight so let's keep this real, shall we?
                  Quote:
                  29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

                  30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

                  First of all, if you look at this scripture to try and prove your point, then you're making the point against yourself. V.30 explains V.29 by saying that those are the SYMPTOMS of drinking too much and perhaps even mixing your drinks. (which we all know should NEVER be done) Even the passages in Timothy, Paul makes reference to not being "given" to wine or strong drink. "Given" meaning abuse of the drink. There is NO place in the bible that PROHIBITS Christian use of alcohol. It is a sin, however to drink too much, because drinking too much impairs you and changes you to a point where you won't make rational decisions (I.E. drinking and driving, adultery, drug consumption, you get the point)

                  My friendly advice to you is this: don't change the Word just to try and prove your point. Remember, God doesn't like that either.
                  .......................John 3:16.........................

                  My testimony:http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthread.php?t=112657I hope that it inspires one and all

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by HisLeast View Post
                    Same problem in more soothing language. Which group's teachings does one believe when both claim to have been taught by the holy spirit and each belief is mutually exclusive?
                    If one group chooses not to drink alcohol let them not drink alcohol. If another group chooses to drink alcohol in moderation let them drink alcohol in moderation.

                    Nobody disputes that drunkenness in a sin (Eph 5:18, among others, tells us this). But beyond that the Bible doesn't explicitly tell us universally that we must not drink, nor does it tell us universally that we must drink. In the absence of such compulsion or prohibition we are all free to choose as the Spirit guides us. The fact that one may have been guided to live in a certain way does not require another to live in the same way.

                    If some people choose to eat peanut butter and others do not we don't make a big fuss over it
                    24 August 2013 - I've decided to take a break from a number of internet forums, including this one, for my own reasons.
                    I expect to be back at some time in the future, although at present don't know when that will be.
                    I've been here just a few days shy of six years, and those six years have been greatly blessed.

                    ---

                    1Jn 4:1 NKJV Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
                    1Th 5:21-22 NKJV Test all things; hold fast what is good. (22) Abstain from every form of evil.



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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by tango View Post

                      If some people choose to eat peanut butter and others do not we don't make a big fuss over it
                      Or use the Internet in a righteous manner as Jesus would use the Internet in a righteous manner.

                      Since the Internet can be used and abused just like the consumption of alcohol can... why don't Christian's who preach the legalistic "Separate yourself from the world and don't drink a drop" don't stop using the internet when applying their own personal theology to themselves?

                      Unfortunately, those bound with this spirit of legalism and/or religion... don't realize this.
                      Slug1--out

                      ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

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                      • #71
                        People use their mouths to say evil things i guess we should put a ban on talking

                        People abuse power i guess we should get rid of the government

                        People abuse people i guess we should ban human life

                        People abuse wine i guess we should ban wine

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                        • #72
                          The bible states many times about the dangers of alcohol. Drinking it is not a sin but overdoing it is a sin. If you can't moderate, then don't do it. It's a very slippery slope for some.



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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
                            Or use the Internet in a righteous manner as Jesus would use the Internet in a righteous manner.

                            Since the Internet can be used and abused just like the consumption of alcohol can... why don't Christian's who preach the legalistic "Separate yourself from the world and don't drink a drop" don't stop using the internet when applying their own personal theology to themselves?

                            Unfortunately, those bound with this spirit of legalism and/or religion... don't realize this.
                            Interesting how you say that those who are "preaching" abstinence of alcohol are promoting their "own personal theology." Yet that very same statement could be made right back at you concerning your belief of "alcohol in moderation."

                            So let's not immediately dismiss somebody elses scriptures, beliefs, etc just because they disagree with yours. This forum is for discussion, not personal attacks, cheap shots, etc. Individuals can be so sincerely convinced that they are right, but yet at the same time be sincerely wrong.

                            Anyone in there right mind would have to at least agree that the abuse of alcohol in America has caused many problems for many familes, friends, children, husbands, and wives.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by faithfulfriend View Post
                              Interesting how you say that those who are "preaching" abstinence of alcohol are promoting their "own personal theology." Yet that very same statement could be made right back at you concerning your belief of "alcohol in moderation."

                              So let's not immediately dismiss somebody elses scriptures, beliefs, etc just because they disagree with yours. This forum is for discussion, not personal attacks, cheap shots, etc. Individuals can be so sincerely convinced that they are right, but yet at the same time be sincerely wrong.

                              Anyone in there right mind would have to at least agree that the abuse of alcohol in America has caused many problems for many familes, friends, children, husbands, and wives.

                              Key words: the abuse of alcohol in America

                              Yes. The abuse of alcohol in America has caused many deaths and other problems with families

                              But it was not Alcohol that caused those problems. It was People who Abused that alcohol


                              WE certainly cant deny someones feelings that we should all abstain, But WE CERTAINLY CAN deny someone trying to make a rule that none of us can drink just because that is THEIR opinion.

                              The Bible says you may drink wine AND strong drink. The Bible says it loud and clear. You may not get drunk but YOU MAY DRINK WINE AND STRONG DRINK

                              people can have their feelings, views, and opinions, and i respect those.

                              But to say drinking alcohol is a sin is a lie from the devil because the Bible does not say that. God Himself said for his people to buy wine and strong drink if they desired. There are times when we are in the rpesence of recovering abusers when we should obviously not tempt them. But if i am with my girl at a restaurant and i want to order a glass of wine, i am blessed in the sight of God. "Drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved of what you do"


                              The problem comes when people try to make us who drink feel like we are sinning. That is the problem. EVen if you make an argument that wine meant unfermented wine, you cant say that strong drink means unfermented strong drink. The bible calls strong drink a brawler when it is abused. Obviously strong drink is more than just really really sweet juice.


                              So yes, we can respect those who dont want to drink, but they also need to respect our freedom to drink, instead of trying to make us feel like we are "under the trick of the enemy"

                              God gave wine which gladdens the heart.

                              Alcohol does not make anyone do anything. People CHOOSE to ABUSE alcohol. the people are the problem not the alcohol.

                              So please people stop trying to make every Christian conform to your personal opinion. The Bible does not ban alcohol. Period. So if i drink an alcoholic drink, do not try to make me feel bad because God approves of what i do.

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                              • #75
                                Whew! from all of the posts, it seems abundantly clear that drinking wine or "strong drink" is not forbidden in the Scriptures. It's actually encouraged in a number of places. However, it is also abundantly clear that '"staying long at the wine" or "tarrying" is frowned on in the Scriptures. Like virtually everything that God has given us, we CAN find a way to abuse it (and ourselves), whether that be alcohol, food, sex, or even a mis-guided fervor for God (can we say "Inquisition"?). The fault is not in God's gifts, but in how we use them. I am not ashamed to say, I have a "drink" of either beer, wine, etc. almost every evening, and feel no guilt whatsoever. I drink ONE drink. I haven't taken alcohol to get "drunk", since I was in college, and that was a LOOOONG time ago. Medical science is proving that the advice of Paul was correct, a little wine is good for the body. Chances are (although I can't point to it in Scripture), that Paul's good friend and companion, Luke, the physician, would have agreed. I can find nowhere in the Bible that forbids drinking any alcoholic beverages, but find plenty of places that condemn being a drunkard. I went to school with Gary Nation (grandson of Carrie Nation), and even he couldn't point to Scripture that forbade alcohol, unless a person is a Nazarite, and even then, according to Rabbinical tradition, alcohol fermented from grapes, vinegar, grapes themselves, raisins, etc. were forbidden, but not alcohol from other sources (grain).

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