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  • Specific Process of Losing Salvation

    i will try to keep this simple.

    lets discuss what is necessary for salvation:

    ye must be born again, that which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of spirit is spirit

    you must perservere till the end, you must not fall away:

    "to him who overcomes i will give the crown of life"


    my first question is, is it possible to be born again by the Spirit and still end up in hell with your born again nature? if so, please show scripture that specifically states this concept

    also, under the New Covenant(in the New Testament),
    what is the process of the Holy Spirit leaving a true believer?
    is there any scripture that talks about the Holy Spirit leaving a believer?
    i have seen the spirit grieved and outraged, but i dont see any scriptures that say the Spirit can leave you under the new covenant. i know in the old covenant the Spirit was upon people only for a time and could leave that person, such as David crying out for God to not remove his Spirit, however does that happen under the new covenant? if so please provide scripture

    also, does every "believer" become born again? for example the man who was baptised and "believed" in Acts, but then asked Paul to sell him the power of the Holy Spirit. was this man born from above? please show scripture that supports every "believer" is truly born again

    and if losing salvation is possible, under the new covenant, please explain with scripture exactly how this process comes about


    lets not try to force people to believe what we believe, but rather lets simply discuss the scripture

  • #2
    Originally posted by reformedct View Post
    i will try to keep this simple.

    lets discuss what is necessary for salvation:

    ye must be born again, that which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of spirit is spirit

    you must perservere till the end, you must not fall away:

    "to him who overcomes i will give the crown of life"


    my first question is, is it possible to be born again by the Spirit and still end up in hell with your born again nature? if so, please show scripture that specifically states this concept

    also, under the New Covenant(in the New Testament),
    what is the process of the Holy Spirit leaving a true believer?
    is there any scripture that talks about the Holy Spirit leaving a believer?
    i have seen the spirit grieved and outraged, but i dont see any scriptures that say the Spirit can leave you under the new covenant. i know in the old covenant the Spirit was upon people only for a time and could leave that person, such as David crying out for God to not remove his Spirit, however does that happen under the new covenant? if so please provide scripture

    also, does every "believer" become born again? for example the man who was baptised and "believed" in Acts, but then asked Paul to sell him the power of the Holy Spirit. was this man born from above? please show scripture that supports every "believer" is truly born again

    and if losing salvation is possible, under the new covenant, please explain with scripture exactly how this process comes about


    lets not try to force people to believe what we believe, but rather lets simply discuss the scripture
    I believe it is when a believer chooses this world over Christ,

    Hebrews 3:1-12 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


    7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

    Notice what He says, Holy brethren, Partakers of hte heavenly calling, the apostles and high priest of "our" profession, Jesus Christ. These people were Christians, they were believers. Yet the writer tells them, take heed, brethren, lest their be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
      I believe it is when a believer chooses this world over Christ,
      Can a believer, have an evil heart of unbelief?

      Hebrews 3:1-12 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


      This speaks of being His house.
      Are you a house?
      Am I a house?

      7
      Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

      Notice what He says, Holy brethren, Partakers of hte heavenly calling, the apostles and high priest of "our" profession, Jesus Christ. These people were Christians, they were believers. Yet the writer tells them, take heed, brethren, lest their be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
      It does not speak of believers becoming unbelievers.
      If there be any among you (in the house) having an evil heart of unbelief.

      There are many today in churches who have an evil heart of belief. When persecution comes, they may depart from the living God. The living God dwells in the Body of Christ.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
        Can a believer, have an evil heart of unbelief?

        [/font][/color]

        This speaks of being His house.
        Are you a house?
        Am I a house?

        [left][color=#000000][font=Verdana]

        It does not speak of believers becoming unbelievers.
        If there be any among you (in the house) having an evil heart of unbelief.

        There are many today in churches who have an evil heart of belief. When persecution comes, they may depart from the living God. The living God dwells in the Body of Christ.

        i do not think it is wrong to interpret Pauls warning as such:

        "MAKE SURE YOU ARE A TRUE BELIEVER NOT JUST IN CHURCH PHYSICALLY BUT CONNECTED TO CHRIST FROM YOUR HEART

        there is no such thing as an unbelieveing Christain, it is contradictory

        i believe this is the same as "examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith"

        this doesnt mean they are going to lose their salvation or the Spirit will leave them, unless you read that into the text imo, it means what it says:

        make sure you really believe
        examine yourself to make sure you are in the faith

        it seems rather a simple warning to make sure that all the brethren are on the same page, and that they actually believe, not a warning that they will lose their salvation or a threat that the Holy Spirit is gonna leave them

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by reformedct View Post
          i do not think it is wrong to interpret Pauls warning as such:

          "MAKE SURE YOU ARE A TRUE BELIEVER NOT JUST IN CHURCH PHYSICALLY BUT CONNECTED TO CHRIST FROM YOUR HEART

          there is no such thing as an unbelieveing Christain, it is contradictory

          i believe this is the same as "examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith"

          this doesnt mean they are going to lose their salvation or the Spirit will leave them, unless you read that into the text imo, it means what it says:

          make sure you really believe
          examine yourself to make sure you are in the faith

          it seems rather a simple warning to make sure that all the brethren are on the same page, and that they actually believe, not a warning that they will lose their salvation or a threat that the Holy Spirit is gonna leave them
          Hi reformedct!

          Yes, we are on the same page!!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by reformedct View Post
            i do not think it is wrong to interpret Pauls warning as such:

            "MAKE SURE YOU ARE A TRUE BELIEVER NOT JUST IN CHURCH PHYSICALLY BUT CONNECTED TO CHRIST FROM YOUR HEART

            there is no such thing as an unbelieveing Christain, it is contradictory

            i believe this is the same as "examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith"

            this doesnt mean they are going to lose their salvation or the Spirit will leave them, unless you read that into the text imo, it means what it says:

            make sure you really believe
            examine yourself to make sure you are in the faith

            it seems rather a simple warning to make sure that all the brethren are on the same page, and that they actually believe, not a warning that they will lose their salvation or a threat that the Holy Spirit is gonna leave them
            Absolutely!

            Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
            Make you election sure.

            These things are only possible by persevering to the end. Those who believed for a while then fell away were never born of God for those born of God have God's seed remaining in them.

            Now, one thing that must be realized when one accepts these sayings is that there is no such thing as blessed assurance to where you know you will persevere to the end.

            I believe I will, but I do not KNOW I will. God willing, I will do this or go there. God willing I will persevere to the end.

            Yuke

            Comment


            • #7
              I believe (oh no!), that once TRULY saved, always saved. There are those who profess Christ but are not possessed by Christ. Paul speaks often of our walks in the context of athletics, boxing and running. Our walks are not sprints and we do get knocked down. I believe that while one may be in Christ and remains fleshly, they lose rewards in heaven. Not their salvation. There's so much NT Scripture about assurance and testing your salvation (I can post some if called out, but its Christmas Eve), if you pass the test, you have assurance. We examine yourselves, yes, with fear and trembling.

              I stand on John 10:1-18

              Some of us may be rebellious sheep wanting to run away, some may be obedient and stay close to the Shepherd, some may be complacent looking only for rich pasture, but we all belong to Him, and He will not lose one of us. IF we are TRULY part of His fold.

              Merry Christmas!
              Heb 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

              It is a wonderful thing to be predestined, elected and to believe by faith by virture of His irresitible grace and His limited atonement. Calvie, premill, dispie and full of cats. I love you too!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by SeattleSun View Post
                I believe (oh no!), that once TRULY saved, always saved. There are those who profess Christ but are not possessed by Christ. Paul speaks often of our walks in the context of athletics, boxing and running. Our walks are not sprints and we do get knocked down. I believe that while one may be in Christ and remains fleshly, they lose rewards in heaven. Not their salvation. There's so much NT Scripture about assurance and testing your salvation (I can post some if called out, but its Christmas Eve), if you pass the test, you have assurance. We examine yourselves, yes, with fear and trembling.

                I stand on John 10:1-18

                Some of us may be rebellious sheep wanting to run away, some may be obedient and stay close to the Shepherd, some may be complacent looking only for rich pasture, but we all belong to Him, and He will not lose one of us. IF we are TRULY part of His fold.

                Merry Christmas!
                i agree with most of what you said, but let me just tighten it up a bit, before a NOSAS supporter screams: liscence!

                yes it is possible for a believer to choose to sin and maybe even spend a period of time struggling with a sin, however, a true Christian will inevitably experience sanctification until the dau Christ returns. What this means is that the course of a persons life will be directed toward behaving just like Christ their master.

                there is a holiness without which none will see the Lord. You will know them by their fruits

                someone can claim to be saved and struggling in one area but showing fruit in others

                however if we claim to be Christians and continually live in unrepentant sins it is most likely that person is not a Christian

                i think you mean the same thing but i just wanted to magnify it

                Comment


                • #9
                  Do I agree with reformedct that "yes it is possible for a believer to choose to sin "

                  Or...

                  Do I agree with John that "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

                  Um, hmmm, toughie, let me think...........I choose John.

                  Not going to derail the thread as it stands, but until you have proven in Scriptures that one who is born again can sin, I will speak up when you contradict what the Bible says.

                  I beleive we both agree that there is no specific process in losing salvation.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Yukerboy View Post
                    Do I agree with reformedct that "yes it is possible for a believer to choose to sin "

                    Or...

                    Do I agree with John that "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

                    Um, hmmm, toughie, let me think...........I choose John.

                    Not going to derail the thread as it stands, but until you have proven in Scriptures that one who is born again can sin, I will speak up when you contradict what the Bible says.

                    I beleive we both agree that there is no specific process in losing salvation.
                    i appreciate your heart to defend the truth of Gods word

                    hmmmm.. i dont know the passage but here is something to think about

                    Was Peter , who wrote some of the Bible, born again? Yes

                    Did Peter according to Paul, have an experience where he was called out for being a hypocrite? i believe so, but i must find the passage

                    Did Peter commit hypocrisy?? hmmm

                    is hypocrisy a sin??

                    i think i know what your theology is so even if you agree with all those points you would most likely answer that Peter did not sin but his flesh did. I see where you are coming from but i hold a different interpretation. at least we agree on security lol

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      i appreciate your heart to defend the truth of Gods word
                      Thank you, as I know you do too.

                      hmmmm.. i dont know the passage but here is something to think about

                      Was Peter , who wrote some of the Bible, born again? Yes
                      Agreed.

                      Did Peter according to Paul, have an experience where he was called out for being a hypocrite? i believe so, but i must find the passage
                      True.

                      Did Peter commit hypocrisy?? hmmm
                      His flesh did.

                      is hypocrisy a sin??
                      Everything is permissible, but not all things are profitable. So, no, not to one who is born again.

                      i think i know what your theology is so even if you agree with all those points you would most likely answer that Peter did not sin but his flesh did. I see where you are coming from but i hold a different interpretation. at least we agree on security lol
                      Agreed.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                        i
                        hmmmm.. i dont know the passage but here is something to think about

                        Was Peter , who wrote some of the Bible, born again? Yes

                        Did Peter according to Paul, have an experience where he was called out for being a hypocrite? i believe so, but i must find the passage

                        Did Peter commit hypocrisy?? hmmm

                        is hypocrisy a sin??

                        i think i know what your theology is so even if you agree with all those points you would most likely answer that Peter did not sin but his flesh did. I see where you are coming from but i hold a different interpretation. at least we agree on security lol
                        well Paul said (in the book he pointed out Peter's error) those that put themselves back under the law have fallen from grace and Christ was of no effect to them. Hebrews states those that do cannot get it back. Obviously Peter had not done so in his heart just in his flesh. Horrible in that he did so out of concern for what man thought but still, there is no indication that Peter denied the faith and actually in his heart, put himself back under the law. Hebrews 5-6 doesn't even imply that anyone ever lost salvation! It's simply telling Hebrew's to quit running to the alter ever week and getting saved over and over (repentance and faith) and grow up into perfection.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by reformedct View Post
                          i agree with most of what you said, but let me just tighten it up a bit, before a NOSAS supporter screams: liscence!

                          yes it is possible for a believer to choose to sin and maybe even spend a period of time struggling with a sin, however, a true Christian will inevitably experience sanctification until the dau Christ returns. What this means is that the course of a persons life will be directed toward behaving just like Christ their master.

                          there is a holiness without which none will see the Lord. You will know them by their fruits

                          someone can claim to be saved and struggling in one area but showing fruit in others

                          however if we claim to be Christians and continually live in unrepentant sins it is most likely that person is not a Christian

                          i think you mean the same thing but i just wanted to magnify it
                          Ha! The basis of my "on no!".

                          Absolutely agree, and appreciate the artful amplification. I look back at my own walk (and I really like application), and its been one of insight and enlightment along with "don't wanna". There are times when I want to go back into the world, because I was there for most of my 55 years. I went through a short season of utter rebellion. It was awful.

                          Repentance ... but I'm saying that He knows the heart, its not ours' to judge. The heart may belong to Him but not repentant enough for "us" and not enough for the crowns, IOW the rebellious sheep.

                          He never, ever stopped working in me. How He worked in me is hard to explain.

                          I believe His providence came into play ... things happened that I didn't like but accepted and people were put in front of me and people were taken away from me. Some to speak into me and me to speak into them. Don't hinder the Spirit.

                          I could take this thread really OT, but I would like to hear others' opinions (being a reformed Calvinist): Does God keep you alive until you confess Christ is Lord?
                          Heb 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

                          It is a wonderful thing to be predestined, elected and to believe by faith by virture of His irresitible grace and His limited atonement. Calvie, premill, dispie and full of cats. I love you too!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Partaker---Can a believer, have an evil heart of unbelief?
                            Yes

                            Partaker--- [/font][/color]

                            This speaks of being His house.
                            Are you a house?
                            Am I a house?

                            [left][color=#000000][font=Verdana]
                            Yes,

                            Hebrews 3:6 ( KJV ) 6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

                            Partaker---It does not speak of believers becoming unbelievers.
                            If there be any among you (in the house) having an evil heart of unbelief.
                            Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

                            How then would you describe a believer?

                            Partaker---There are many today in churches who have an evil heart of belief. When persecution comes, they may depart from the living God. The living God dwells in the Body of Christ.
                            What does this have to do with the passage?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                              Yes


                              Yes,

                              Hebrews 3:6 ( KJV ) 6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.



                              Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

                              How then would you describe a believer?



                              What does this have to do with the passage?
                              Butch, this is the mistake in your interpreting:

                              1.Paul is talking to the brethren
                              2. Paul says make sure you dont have an evil heart of unbelief

                              Conclusion: Real brethren can have a heart of unbelief.

                              It is logical, but it is assuming that Paul could not just be issuing a warning to the brethren, and a call to self examination to people in the audience who think they are true brethren and not. Your conclusion completely throws out this possibility. You interpret it in one way.

                              You also assume there are no false brethren in the audience. You assume when he is talking, the audience is full of 100% born again believers. Do you think the Corinthians were all true born again believers? sleeping with their step parents? but yet the letter is addressed to THE CHURCH IN CORINTH IN CHRIST JESUS. Just because Paul speaks in an inclusive way, you are assuming that whenever he does he is talking specifically to all born-again believers. This is not the case. He address them as brethren, partakers in Christ, but that doesnt mean we say, OK HE IS TALKING TO ONLY THE BRETHREN SO TRUE BRETHEN CAN HAVE AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF, EVEN THOUGH THAT WHICH IS BORN OF SPIRIT IS SPIRIT AND THE BELIEVER HAS A NEW HEART

                              sorry thats wrong bro

                              Comment

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